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Author Topic: Tone of Alleluia for the Wedding ceremony  (Read 1180 times) Average Rating: 0
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scamandrius
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« on: June 11, 2011, 12:03:34 PM »

Is there a prescribed tone for the Alleluia at the wedding ceremony with its accompanying stichoi?  Or am I free to choose one?  Thanks.
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« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2011, 04:24:33 PM »

The Prokeimenon is in Plagal 4 so the epistle should be chanted in the same tone and therefore the Alleluia would also be in Plagal 4.
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« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2011, 05:42:02 PM »

The Prokeimenon is in Plagal 4 so the epistle should be chanted in the same tone and therefore the Alleluia would also be in Plagal 4.

Slavs would not use that terminology, it would be referred to as Tone 4 or 'Hlas/Glas' 4 in the Slavonic. Just thought I would mention this so no one is unduly confused!
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« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2011, 07:01:44 PM »

The Prokeimenon is in Plagal 4 so the epistle should be chanted in the same tone and therefore the Alleluia would also be in Plagal 4.

Slavs would not use that terminology, it would be referred to as Tone 4 or 'Hlas/Glas' 4 in the Slavonic. Just thought I would mention this so no one is unduly confused!

Not that I know anything about Slavic music, but I'm pretty sure they would call it Tone 8. Plagal of the First would be Tone 5, Plagal of the Second would be Tone 6, etc.
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« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2011, 12:28:22 AM »

The Prokeimenon is in Plagal 4 so the epistle should be chanted in the same tone and therefore the Alleluia would also be in Plagal 4.

Epistle prokeimena and Gospel alleluias are not always in the same tone, though. 
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« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2011, 06:51:28 AM »

Always good when Byzantine and Slav practices get wildly confused  Grin

Slav practices have Alleluia verses, whereas Byzantine practices just have 'Alleluia (x3)' and lack accompanying verses, but will chant the epistle itself in a particular tone (which is /nothing/ like the Slavic concept of 'chanting in a tone').

Perhaps scamandrius might be able to specify what jurisdiction this is for?
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« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2011, 07:10:15 AM »

The Prokeimenon is in Plagal 4 so the epistle should be chanted in the same tone and therefore the Alleluia would also be in Plagal 4.

Epistle prokeimena and Gospel alleluias are not always in the same tone, though.  

Plagal of the Fourth is still the right answer for the Byzantine tradition.

P.S. But it's from Ga.
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« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2011, 05:13:19 PM »

Always good when Byzantine and Slav practices get wildly confused  Grin

Slav practices have Alleluia verses, whereas Byzantine practices just have 'Alleluia (x3)' and lack accompanying verses, but will chant the epistle itself in a particular tone (which is /nothing/ like the Slavic concept of 'chanting in a tone').

Perhaps scamandrius might be able to specify what jurisdiction this is for?

If the Alleluia verses do not belong in the Byzantine practice then why do all the Greek Epistle books print them? Just because something is not done in your parish does not mean it is not part of the actual practice.
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« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2011, 05:53:47 PM »

The Prokeimenon is in Plagal 4 so the epistle should be chanted in the same tone and therefore the Alleluia would also be in Plagal 4.

Slavs would not use that terminology, it would be referred to as Tone 4 or 'Hlas/Glas' 4 in the Slavonic. Just thought I would mention this so no one is unduly confused!

Not that I know anything about Slavic music, but I'm pretty sure they would call it Tone 8. Plagal of the First would be Tone 5, Plagal of the Second would be Tone 6, etc.

In the Serbian practice, it would be Tone 8.  From what I have in front of me, the Prokeimenon and Alleluias are usually in the same tone for these types of services.
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« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2011, 06:13:49 PM »

If the Alleluia verses do not belong in the Byzantine practice then why do all the Greek Epistle books print them? Just because something is not done in your parish does not mean it is not part of the actual practice.

a) As far as I'm aware, they're not done in a number of eparchies of the Ecumenical Throne.  They're certainly not done in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia, I'm fairly sure they're not done in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America or OMHKSEA, and while I'm not certain about Thyateira and Great Britain I don't yet have any reason to think that it would be any different (though would welcome information to the contrary).

b) The fact that something is in the books doesn't mean that it's done.  The canon in the Octoechos is probably the best example of this - while some places might do the full canon (without skipping any of the troparia), few would sing it, so the tone is almost irrelevant for most places.  Fr Seraphim Dedes' work doesn't include the canon, and even HTM's menaion didn't bother setting this to Byzantine meter when they translated, so the reverse can also be true.

c) Again, to answer the question properly, scamandrius would need to say which jurisdiction it's for.
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« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2011, 08:50:42 PM »

The Prokeimenon is in Plagal 4 so the epistle should be chanted in the same tone and therefore the Alleluia would also be in Plagal 4.

Slavs would not use that terminology, it would be referred to as Tone 4 or 'Hlas/Glas' 4 in the Slavonic. Just thought I would mention this so no one is unduly confused!

Not that I know anything about Slavic music, but I'm pretty sure they would call it Tone 8. Plagal of the First would be Tone 5, Plagal of the Second would be Tone 6, etc.

You have my head spinning for sure! I was too lazy to get up out of my chair to check the Slavic wedding service book notations as to the proper tone.

Don't we all use a cycle of Eight Tones, the Octoechos, throughout the liturgical year, with some special tones called for at certain times, like the Troparion of the Resurrection, at least in the Galician/Ukrainian and Rusyn slavic traditions? This wiki article is pretty good and it does clear up the terminology of 'plagal' for us Slavs who were confused by the first answer.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octoechos_(liturgy)

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« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2011, 09:15:31 PM »

If the Alleluia verses do not belong in the Byzantine practice then why do all the Greek Epistle books print them? Just because something is not done in your parish does not mean it is not part of the actual practice.
a) As far as I'm aware, they're not done in a number of eparchies of the Ecumenical Throne.  They're certainly not done in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia, I'm fairly sure they're not done in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America or OMHKSEA, and while I'm not certain about Thyateira and Great Britain I don't yet have any reason to think that it would be any different (though would welcome information to the contrary).
It is often a cut common in many parishes, both Greek and Slavic background. Still it doesn't mean that it is not part of the actual practice. I know parishes in the Archdiocese of America who do include the Alleluia verses and OCA and ROCOR parishes that do not include the verses.
Quote
b) The fact that something is in the books doesn't mean that it's done.  The canon in the Octoechos is probably the best example of this - while some places might do the full canon (without skipping any of the troparia), few would sing it, so the tone is almost irrelevant for most places.  Fr Seraphim Dedes' work doesn't include the canon, and even HTM's menaion didn't bother setting this to Byzantine meter when they translated, so the reverse can also be true.
Not everything in the book is done due to cuts that are made, that does not mean it is not part of the proper practice.
Quote
c) Again, to answer the question properly, scamandrius would need to say which jurisdiction it's for.
On several occasions Scamandrius has indicated that his is part of the Antiochian tradition, but that is not relevant to this discussion because he specifically asked the tone of the Alleluia for the Wedding Service which, seems to be universal in all the source material to be Plagal 4 (or the Eighth Tone for those who do not know how to properly understand the tonal system).  
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« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2011, 09:21:47 PM »

The Prokeimenon is in Plagal 4 so the epistle should be chanted in the same tone and therefore the Alleluia would also be in Plagal 4.

Slavs would not use that terminology, it would be referred to as Tone 4 or 'Hlas/Glas' 4 in the Slavonic. Just thought I would mention this so no one is unduly confused!

What you have done is confused this discussion even further. The 4th Tone is not the same as Plagal 4. Plagal 4 = the 8th Tone.
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« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2011, 09:26:02 PM »

The Prokeimenon is in Plagal 4 so the epistle should be chanted in the same tone and therefore the Alleluia would also be in Plagal 4.

Epistle prokeimena and Gospel alleluias are not always in the same tone, though. 

True, but in publication practice if there is no change in tone it is not marked. Only changes in Tone are marked. So if the Prokeimenon is in Tone 1, it would be marked. If the Alleluia was then in Tone 2 it would be marked to indicate the change but, if it was also in Tone 1 then it would not be indicated because there would be no change in the tone.
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« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2011, 09:40:41 PM »

The actual correct answer, if you are hiring a choir, is that you will get the one that they routinely use. At least, that was true of the choir I sang in.
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« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2011, 12:05:02 AM »

(or the Eighth Tone for those who do not know how to properly understand the tonal system).  

You mean like virtually everyone who publishes Orthodox liturgical books?
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« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2011, 11:28:45 AM »

The Prokeimenon is in Plagal 4 so the epistle should be chanted in the same tone and therefore the Alleluia would also be in Plagal 4.

Slavs would not use that terminology, it would be referred to as Tone 4 or 'Hlas/Glas' 4 in the Slavonic. Just thought I would mention this so no one is unduly confused!

What you have done is confused this discussion even further. The 4th Tone is not the same as Plagal 4. Plagal 4 = the 8th Tone.

The plagal terminology doesn't translate into Slavic custom, as I explained the nomenclature was foreign to me and I am a trained cantor in the Slavic tradition. The graph in the wikipedia article lays it out clearly. Just because it is Byzantine custom and practice doesn't make it "Big O" orthodox. We have eight distinct tonal melodies whether you use Znammeny, Kievan, Rusyn or whatever.
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« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2011, 02:10:41 PM »

You mean like virtually everyone who publishes Orthodox liturgical books?

Virtually everyone who publishes Orthodox liturgical books based on the Russian tradition which does not follow the tonal system.
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« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2011, 10:07:54 PM »

Perhaps scamandrius might be able to specify what jurisdiction this is for?

The mystery will be in an Antiochian parish which celebrates according to the Typikon of the Great Church of Christ.

The actual correct answer, if you are hiring a choir, is that you will get the one that they routinely use. At least, that was true of the choir I sang in.

Actually, the entire service will be chanted in the (neo)-Byzantine style.  And as I am a chanter myself, I know that those chanting the wedding could do it in any tone (familiar and not so familiar).
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