Author Topic: This bus monitor bullying incident...  (Read 3048 times)

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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2012, 10:49:17 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

You know, the whole love your enemy thing is wonderful, but I can see why do many people are attracted to Islam. They are actually encOuraged to go down and take baseball bats to the gangbangers and bullies on the street corners...



Gangsters standing on street corners just WISH folks would run at them with baseball bats ;)

Violence creates violence. Do you know why people kill each other in the streets? It is because of the silly way people seem to abandon kids to misbehavior as if they were born to lose.  People grow up to become killers and other assorted low-lives because the community gave up on them when they were children.  All people were once children, and all children have the potential to grow up to become good people.  The question is, do we adults put in the work as a society to achieve this? It all starts with our own attitudes about our communities.  If we have a blame everybody but ourselves attitude, then we get what we give.  Life is like that. You always get what you give.  If you give hate, you get hate. If  you give apathy, you get apathy.  If you give love, you get love. If you give work, you get folks working with you.

I agree with you, that we have problems in our society because of a lack of community involvement, however, I think your approach is a bit backwards.  People in the communities to need to get together and work together, but not for more violence, rather to quell violence and develop everyday, grass-roots, community oriented solutions.  By the way, I've witnessed this first hand.   People don't step up to the plate enough, but we all need to step up to the right plate, with the right intentions, and that is love.  If we don't expect the best from each other, what else should we expect? If we don't love each other, why are we surprised to find so much hate?

We've built enough prisons and fought enough wars to discover that it doesn't work.  How about we focus on a bit of preventive medicine now?

stay blessed,
habte selassie



Amen brother. And this is exactly why I made my initial comments. As a member of the human race and a member of human society, this kind of cowardly bullying infuriates me. And rather than obfuscating the clear truth of right and wrong with psychological and/or sociological justifications, I will call evil "evil" without apology and place the blame squarely where it belongs. If I did otherwise, then I would only be facilitating and enabling the perpetuation of such injustices.

I become especially irritated by these incidents because they are so easy to prevent. Hire the right people with the proper authoritative skills and have a zero tolerance policy towards this crap. Like I said previously, why do these bus drivers keep on driving when such behavior is occuring? I say fire any bus driver who endangers the lives of all his passengers by continuing to drive while kids are cursing, fighting, getting out of their seats, etc. This is simply common sense, but there is obviously a dearth of it in our society.

As for the parents, I do not feel guilty about calling them out either. Sure, I must focus on raising my own children the best that I can, but I will make no apologies for parents who allow their children to behave in this idiotic and cruel manner.

I would also like to mention that there are plenty of people who grow up in climates of poverty and crime who do not allow their negative surroundings to corrupt them. Instead of succumbing to the evil around them, they have the courage and integrity to do the right thing in spite of their environment. So while I accept the fact that socio-economic and environmental conditions play a role, I also think that these factors are too often used as an excuse to for bad behavior. The law of God is written on the heart of every man, woman, and child; and behavior is always a volitional act, not a mere accident of circumstances.

OK, sorry for the pontification.


Selam
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Offline Cognomen

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2012, 10:54:55 PM »
Am I the only one who sees the brutal irony of how ugly a bunch of misbehaving kids has made this forum act and speak as bad or worse than them as if we were also on this bus? 
No, I'm with you.

Quote
People are blaming kids! Kids?

And then you lost me.  As others have said, yes they are blaming kids, and rightly so.  These aren't infants or toddlers.  They are aware of what they are doing; same as I was at that age. You lecture everyone on being kind and tolerant and then give these little... a pass.  Whatever...

Quote
People are condemning parents they've never met in their lives!

Back in agreement.  My parents taught me to be kind, respectful, and empathetic to everyone.  It didn't work.  They tried to give me the benefit of the doubt when presented with inconclusive evidence of my misbehavior. 

It was my fault, not theirs.  Again, your defense of these kids is misguided.

Quote
All over what, some youtube video?

You realize it was an actual incident right?
Is this incident overblown? Of course, but the idea that no one is accountable (and I'm not advocating the stuff others have) contributes to this lousiness.

Quote
Lord Have His mercy!

In agreement again!

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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2012, 11:03:13 PM »
These kids are 13-14 or so, making them near the end of Middle School and nearly into High School, they DEFINITELY knew what they were doing.

In fact, that was about the age when students I knew in my school began getting into violent fights, especially our Freshman year in High School. Those kids knew exactly what they were doing and didn't (at least publicly at school) express any remorse.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 11:04:28 PM by 88Devin12 »

Offline Salpy

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #48 on: June 22, 2012, 11:10:28 PM »
Regarding the bus driver, I read that Ms. Klein was sitting in the back of the bus and the driver couldn't see or hear what was happening.  No one is blaming the driver.

When kids are this age, both the kids and the parents have responsibility.  The kids are old enough to know what they are doing, and they are young enough that the parents are still raising them.

I've read that three of the kids have apologized, or their parents have apologized.  One wonders about the fourth kid.


Offline 88Devin12

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #49 on: June 22, 2012, 11:13:01 PM »
Regarding the bus driver, I read that Ms. Klein was sitting in the back of the bus and the driver couldn't see or hear what was happening.  No one is blaming the driver.

When kids are this age, both the kids and the parents have responsibility.  The kids are old enough to know what they are doing, and they are young enough that the parents are still raising them.

I've read that three of the kids have apologized, or their parents have apologized.  One wonders about the fourth kid.



They read one of the "apology letters" on TV tonight and showed footage of one of the dads apologizing and hugging the lady.

The lady said that it would be hard to forgive one of the students, even with the apology letter because he would always have a smirk on his face even when apologizing, but as she said, she doesn't know if it was a heartfelt apology or not...

Offline William

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #50 on: June 22, 2012, 11:40:27 PM »
Well, the families are getting plenty of abuse, so maybe the scales are even.

Who took that video?
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #51 on: June 23, 2012, 12:36:34 AM »
Well, the families are getting plenty of abuse, so maybe the scales are even.

Who took that video?

It was probably one of the students. It may have even been one of the ones making fun of her. Sadly, many kids today think that it is cool to videotape their behavior, maybe for bragging. They'll film their fights, bullying, etc...

Your blood would boil and blood pressure would rise if you saw some of the stuff these punks put on YouTube. The more I see, the more I'm convinced that there are truly sick, demented and evil people out there. I honestly don't think we are too far from returning to the days of paganism.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 12:42:04 AM by 88Devin12 »

Offline Fr. George

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #52 on: June 23, 2012, 09:48:37 AM »
It takes a village to raise a child

I hate this phrase.  It's a total cop-out.  I'm not blaming you, I'm blaming the society that has bought it hook, line, and sinker.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #53 on: June 23, 2012, 09:57:57 AM »
It takes a village to raise a child

I hate this phrase.  It's a total cop-out.  I'm not blaming you, I'm blaming the society that has bought it hook, line, and sinker.
Kinda like a story I heard once: It takes a child to raze a village. ;D
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #54 on: June 23, 2012, 11:39:58 AM »
It takes a village to raise a child

I hate this phrase.  It's a total cop-out.  I'm not blaming you, I'm blaming the society that has bought it hook, line, and sinker.
Yes, and the village idiots who think they are more worthy to raise someone else's children, especially when they don't have any of their own.
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #55 on: June 23, 2012, 06:12:40 PM »
Over $624,000 raised for her so far...

Offline NightOwl

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #56 on: June 23, 2012, 06:18:02 PM »
Over $624,000 raised for her so far...

And she says she's not accepting the boys' apology.

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #57 on: June 23, 2012, 06:40:27 PM »
Over $624,000 raised for her so far...

And she says she's not accepting the boys' apology.

She probably knows those boys may not be honest in their apology. Would you accept an apology if it were coerced from the kid by their parents and not authentic?

Offline genesisone

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #58 on: June 23, 2012, 07:19:45 PM »
Over $624,000 raised for her so far...

And she says she's not accepting the boys' apology.

She probably knows those boys may not be honest in their apology. Would you accept an apology if it were coerced from the kid by their parents and not authentic?
That's very true. In all likelihood she has known those boys for at least the past school year. What happened was not likely the first occurrence of their nastiness. It will take time for them to regain her trust and respect.

Offline Cognomen

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #59 on: June 23, 2012, 08:09:41 PM »
It takes a village to raise a child

I hate this phrase.  It's a total cop-out.  I'm not blaming you, I'm blaming the society that has bought it hook, line, and sinker.

Hah! No, blame him for perpetuating it.  Not doing so is similar to not blaming either the kids or the parents.

It takes a village to ostracize stupid bumper sticker slogans.
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Offline vamrat

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #60 on: June 24, 2012, 05:42:09 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
 ::)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
?

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Offline vamrat

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #61 on: June 24, 2012, 05:50:22 PM »
It takes a village to raise a child

I hate this phrase.  It's a total cop-out.  I'm not blaming you, I'm blaming the society that has bought it hook, line, and sinker.
Kinda like a story I heard once: It takes a child to raze a village. ;D

No, it takes a Platoon to raze a village.  LET'S DO THIS WHOLE VILLAGE F*****G VILLAGE!



There is some truth to it taking a whole society to raise someone, though.  It is almost impossible to raise children without them being influenced by society.  Even good parents will only raise their children part of the way with society filling in the gaps.  The goal is that good parents will make a decent framework for their child that will guide their life.  But there will always be some put in by society.  The parents of the children in this video did not do that.  They did not send their womb turds out in the world with frame.  To make matters worse, our society is pretty much evil. Their actions are pretty easy to understand within this context.

Children without a moral frame and raised by an evil society are pretty much lost.  The only thing we could really do to help them would be to send them on landmine detail in Iraqistan or somewhere and hope to God they haven't bred yet.
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Offline Shiny

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #62 on: June 24, 2012, 06:41:31 PM »
If a pack of wolves can raise a child, I don't see what's wrong with the village comparision either.

But I still had quite the laugh at the village idiots comment.
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #63 on: June 24, 2012, 07:16:33 PM »
If a pack of wolves can raise a child, I don't see what's wrong with the village comparision either.

But I still had quite the laugh at the village idiots comment.


Yeah, it's an African proverb: "It takes a village to raise a child." Lots of truth in that. Too bad Hillary Clinton gave this powerful proverb a bad rap.



Selam
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #64 on: June 24, 2012, 07:22:24 PM »
It takes a village to raise a child

I hate this phrase.  It's a total cop-out.  I'm not blaming you, I'm blaming the society that has bought it hook, line, and sinker.
Kinda like a story I heard once: It takes a child to raze a village. ;D

No, it takes a Platoon to raze a village.  LET'S DO THIS WHOLE VILLAGE F*****G VILLAGE!
Well, all it takes to raze a village is a single spark that turns into a raging fire that turns into a conflagration. Even a child can strike this spark.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #65 on: June 25, 2012, 10:46:32 PM »
I'm in my mid 30's.

I would have beat them up.  Period.

Assault on a minor.  Fine.
Jail time - it is worth it.

:)
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #66 on: June 26, 2012, 08:27:55 AM »
I'm in my mid 30's.

I would have beat them up.  Period.

Assault on a minor.  Fine.
Jail time - it is worth it.

:)
^this.

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #67 on: June 29, 2012, 11:34:49 PM »
It appears that some form of justice has been served in response to this incident:

Students who bullied N.Y. bus monitor are suspended for a year and assigned 50 hours each of community service working with senior citizens.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 11:35:33 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline EkhristosAnesti

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #68 on: June 30, 2012, 10:19:41 AM »
I've done quite a bit of research on youth delinquency and crime within the context of Criminological studies. My research has taught me that reasonably apportioning moral blame in any incident of youth delinquency/crime is a very delicate and difficult exercise, if not humanly impossible.

It's disappointing to see that Orthodox Christians would undertake such an exercise of judgment so lightly and simplistically, for no compelling reason, and with little to no information about these children, their families or their contexts.

I've also done a fair bit of study on restorative justice processes which, where I'm from, are particularly preferred when it comes to dealing with youth offenders. Restorative justice programs focus less on blame and punishment, and more on restoring the offenders as much as the victims to safe, dignified, functioning and constructive positions in society. Blame and punishment only ever play a role insofar as they are reintegrative in nature.

The basic ideology of restorative justice is, I believe, very Scriptural and very Orthodox. It is no surprise that the traditional and prevalent justifications for restorative justice approaches to crime intervention are spiritual/Christian. It is further no surprise that well-respected Orthodox clergy and theologians are beginning to back such an approach.

Thankfully, the souls of these children are in the hands of a God Who is inclined to say, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do", and not in the hands of those who are more inclined towards a sentiment of, "Father, may they be duly punished, for they are old enough to know what they are doing. Oh, and don't forget their parents too!"
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 10:23:38 AM by EkhristosAnesti »
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Offline akimori makoto

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #69 on: June 30, 2012, 06:11:43 PM »
I've done quite a bit of research on youth delinquency and crime within the context of Criminological studies. My research has taught me that reasonably apportioning moral blame in any incident of youth delinquency/crime is a very delicate and difficult exercise, if not humanly impossible.

It's disappointing to see that Orthodox Christians would undertake such an exercise of judgment so lightly and simplistically, for no compelling reason, and with little to no information about these children, their families or their contexts.

I've also done a fair bit of study on restorative justice processes which, where I'm from, are particularly preferred when it comes to dealing with youth offenders. Restorative justice programs focus less on blame and punishment, and more on restoring the offenders as much as the victims to safe, dignified, functioning and constructive positions in society. Blame and punishment only ever play a role insofar as they are reintegrative in nature.

The basic ideology of restorative justice is, I believe, very Scriptural and very Orthodox. It is no surprise that the traditional and prevalent justifications for restorative justice approaches to crime intervention are spiritual/Christian. It is further no surprise that well-respected Orthodox clergy and theologians are beginning to back such an approach.

Thankfully, the souls of these children are in the hands of a God Who is inclined to say, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do", and not in the hands of those who are more inclined towards a sentiment of, "Father, may they be duly punished, for they are old enough to know what they are doing. Oh, and don't forget their parents too!"

Good to see you posting again, EA.

The criminal justice system does not exist for the service of the offender but for the service of everybody else.

Thanks be to God, social workers and statisticians are not jurists. The sooner their poisonous ideas about the courtroom being a therapist's lounge for the offender are finally purged from the law, the better.
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #70 on: June 30, 2012, 07:04:18 PM »
I've done quite a bit of research on youth delinquency and crime within the context of Criminological studies. My research has taught me that reasonably apportioning moral blame in any incident of youth delinquency/crime is a very delicate and difficult exercise, if not humanly impossible.

It's disappointing to see that Orthodox Christians would undertake such an exercise of judgment so lightly and simplistically, for no compelling reason, and with little to no information about these children, their families or their contexts.

I've also done a fair bit of study on restorative justice processes which, where I'm from, are particularly preferred when it comes to dealing with youth offenders. Restorative justice programs focus less on blame and punishment, and more on restoring the offenders as much as the victims to safe, dignified, functioning and constructive positions in society. Blame and punishment only ever play a role insofar as they are reintegrative in nature.

The basic ideology of restorative justice is, I believe, very Scriptural and very Orthodox. It is no surprise that the traditional and prevalent justifications for restorative justice approaches to crime intervention are spiritual/Christian. It is further no surprise that well-respected Orthodox clergy and theologians are beginning to back such an approach.

Thankfully, the souls of these children are in the hands of a God Who is inclined to say, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do", and not in the hands of those who are more inclined towards a sentiment of, "Father, may they be duly punished, for they are old enough to know what they are doing. Oh, and don't forget their parents too!"

Good to see you posting again, EA.

The criminal justice system does not exist for the service of the offender but for the service of everybody else.

Thanks be to God, social workers and statisticians are not jurists. The sooner their poisonous ideas about the courtroom being a therapist's lounge for the offender are finally purged from the law, the better.

But isn't the everyone else served well by the offender being really rehabilitated?
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Offline EkhristosAnesti

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #71 on: June 30, 2012, 08:37:00 PM »
Quote
The criminal justice system does not exist for the service of the offender but for the service of everybody else.

Restorative justice programs do not exist for the service of the offender, but for the effective service of all stakeholders, and society at large; and they have proven quite successful in this regard.

Your remarks betray a very basic understanding of that which you attempt to criticise.

I'm also baffled by the idea that you would thank God for any tendency in a criminal justice system to do away with concerns for a more critical, understanding, holistic and reflective approach to dealing with the offender. After all, very much unlike your conception of the criminal justice system, the divine justice system of God is not one that exists for the service of everyone else apart from the sinner/offender.

In fact, restorative justice is as close to divine justice as any human theory of justice gets.

I would've hoped that Orthodox Christians discussing youth delinquency might be able to display a healthy concern for the restorative justice principles of forgiveness, reconciliation, and the healing of all involved. These are, after all, Orthodox spiritual ideals.    

I find it somewhat disconcerting that in the Faith Issues section there is concurrently a discussion on the nature of sin and how such is conceived in Orthodoxy in terms of an illness/disease in need of treatment/healing; and yet, when discussing the sins of others (and children, at that) we are quick to adopt a legalistic approach in the name of righteousness and justice.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 08:41:53 PM by EkhristosAnesti »
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Offline Tallitot

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #72 on: June 30, 2012, 08:39:53 PM »
if my parents had caught me doing something like that i'd have been one sorry little boy.
Proverbs 22:7

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #73 on: June 30, 2012, 08:46:19 PM »
I find it somewhat disconcerting that in the Faith Issues section there is concurrently a discussion on the nature of sin and how such is conceived in Orthodoxy in terms of an illness/disease in need of treatment/healing; and yet, when discussing the sins of others (and children, at that) we are quick to adopt a legalistic approach in the name of righteousness and justice.
LOL yep.
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Offline akimori makoto

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #74 on: June 30, 2012, 09:36:16 PM »
I find it somewhat disconcerting that in the Faith Issues section there is concurrently a discussion on the nature of sin and how such is conceived in Orthodoxy in terms of an illness/disease in need of treatment/healing; and yet, when discussing the sins of others (and children, at that) we are quick to adopt a legalistic approach in the name of righteousness and justice.
LOL yep.

Law = legalistic.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 09:50:32 PM by akimori makoto »
The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.

Offline akimori makoto

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #75 on: June 30, 2012, 09:37:04 PM »
I've done quite a bit of research on youth delinquency and crime within the context of Criminological studies. My research has taught me that reasonably apportioning moral blame in any incident of youth delinquency/crime is a very delicate and difficult exercise, if not humanly impossible.

It's disappointing to see that Orthodox Christians would undertake such an exercise of judgment so lightly and simplistically, for no compelling reason, and with little to no information about these children, their families or their contexts.

I've also done a fair bit of study on restorative justice processes which, where I'm from, are particularly preferred when it comes to dealing with youth offenders. Restorative justice programs focus less on blame and punishment, and more on restoring the offenders as much as the victims to safe, dignified, functioning and constructive positions in society. Blame and punishment only ever play a role insofar as they are reintegrative in nature.

The basic ideology of restorative justice is, I believe, very Scriptural and very Orthodox. It is no surprise that the traditional and prevalent justifications for restorative justice approaches to crime intervention are spiritual/Christian. It is further no surprise that well-respected Orthodox clergy and theologians are beginning to back such an approach.

Thankfully, the souls of these children are in the hands of a God Who is inclined to say, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do", and not in the hands of those who are more inclined towards a sentiment of, "Father, may they be duly punished, for they are old enough to know what they are doing. Oh, and don't forget their parents too!"

Good to see you posting again, EA.

The criminal justice system does not exist for the service of the offender but for the service of everybody else.

Thanks be to God, social workers and statisticians are not jurists. The sooner their poisonous ideas about the courtroom being a therapist's lounge for the offender are finally purged from the law, the better.

But isn't the everyone else served well by the offender being really rehabilitated?

Yes, it's a nice bonus.
The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.

Offline akimori makoto

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #76 on: June 30, 2012, 09:38:29 PM »
Just so it's clear, I am not saying anything about how we, as Christians, should respond to these children. I am saying how the law should respond to them, which is quite another thing entirely.

Judges are not priests of Christ's Church. They serve an altogether different function.

To quote the Crimes (Sentencing Procedure) Act 1999:

The purposes for which a court may impose a sentence on an offender are as follows:

(a) to ensure that the offender is adequately punished for the offence,
(b) to prevent crime by deterring the offender and other persons from committing similar offences,
(c) to protect the community from the offender,
(d) to promote the rehabilitation of the offender,
(e) to make the offender accountable for his or her actions,
(f) to denounce the conduct of the offender,
(g) to recognise the harm done to the victim of the crime and the community.

Yes, it is possible to understand all of these things within a "restorative justice" framework but, too often, I have seen the catch-cry of "restorative justice!" serve to push (a), (b), (c), (e), (f) and (g) to the side, in favour of (d), especially where young offenders are involved.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 10:00:29 PM by akimori makoto »
The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.

Offline EkhristosAnesti

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #77 on: June 30, 2012, 10:35:24 PM »
Quote
Law = legalistic. Surprise!

Sorry, but this equation is primitively, barbarically, and unjustly (surprised?) reductionist. "Legalism" tends to be quite a naughty word in modern legal discourse.

Quote
Just so it's clear, I am not saying anything about how we, as Christians, should respond to these children. I am saying how the law should respond to them, which is quite another thing entirely.

The more closely the law of man can participate in the ideals and ends of the law of God, the more conducive to true justice it will be.

An Orthodox Christian with genuine faith in the substance and integrity of his spiritual values and principles will seek and desire the adoption and application of such by all.

Quote
too often, I have seen the catch-cry of "restorative justice!" serve to push (a), (b), (c), (e), (f) and (g) to the side, in favour of (d), especially where young offenders are involved.

Since, according to you, this happens "too often", I would love for you to refer me to some material accounting for a single case of a restorative justice program in which focus has been exclusively on rehabilitation of the offender to the detriment of any concern for the victim or the community.

By the way, you are aware that restorative justice programs are not the same as rehabilitation programs?
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Offline akimori makoto

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #78 on: June 30, 2012, 11:54:17 PM »
Sorry, but this equation is primitively, barbarically, and unjustly (surprised?) reductionist. "Legalism" tends to be quite a naughty word in modern legal discourse.

It is true that "legalism" has become something of a dirty word, even in legal discourse. However, some of us still contend, though unfashionably, that the law is necessarily formulaic, rigid and strict in application.

The rules of equity, for example, exist to "temper" the common law and to blunt its harshness but we, rightly, do not allow equity to intrude upon the common law at every instance of apparent harshness or unfairness. Rather, the rules of equity intervene only to prevent a "perverse" result of the application of the law: that is, where the spirit of the law is defeated by its letter, not simply where any perceived harshness or barbarism results.

Every time a judge applies a test or considers a list of pre-determined factors or makes a calculation in accordance with a particular formula, he is engaging in what those who might wish to discredit such rigidity might pejoratively term "legalism". Each time he departs from these things in the name of justice or fairness, all he really does is substitute for these things his own judgment of what is right.

It is precisely "legalism" (which I would define as adherence to principle and enduring respect for precedent) which is the strength of the common law. To us legal realists, the law is simply what the courts do, in fact, and nothing more pretentious. It is not the attempt of human kind to approximate divine justice or create God's kingdom on earth: that is the work of Christ's Church.

The more closely the law of man can participate in the ideals and ends of the law of God, the more conducive to true justice it will be.

An Orthodox Christian with genuine faith in the substance and integrity of his spiritual values and principles will seek and desire the adoption and application of such by all.

I respect you for believing this and think it noble, but I fundamentally do not agree.

The only judge of our hearts is our Lord, God and Saviour. The work of the courts is very unlike the work of God. It is a mistake to ever try to bring these two types of judging into harmony: Tolstoy apprehended that when he wrote that it is not for any one or more of us to put another person behind bars. He was wrong, of course, but at least he correctly identified the conundrum.

Since, according to you, this happens "too often", I would love for you to refer me to some material accounting for a single case of a restorative justice program in which focus has been exclusively on rehabilitation of the offender to the detriment of any concern for the victim or the community.

I am not complaining about restorative justice programs so much as I am complaining of the takeover of jurisprudence by the theory of restorative justice. I think the theory of restorative justice underestimates the value of denunciation of an offender's conduct and the victim's need to see the offender suffer some loss. Restorative justice can account for these things but I think its analysis of them is strained and unnatural, as well as not true to reality. Victims don't care about "reintegration".

By the way, you are aware that restorative justice programs are not the same as rehabilitation programs?

You will note that I conceded that the other factors I enumerated can be understood within a restorative justice framework. I am well aware of the theory of restorative justice (it is as flawed as any other human theory of justice, by the way), as well as how restorative programs play out in reality (I have already said in this thread that I have been working in children's law for a few years now).

I understand that I've been somewhat dismissive before now. For that I apologise. Please, though, do not assume I know nothing of what you are speaking simply because I am not agreeing with you, especially when I have said I have at least some real world expertise.

Anyway, I meant that I was pleased to see you posting again: please consider it re-iterated.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 11:54:54 PM by akimori makoto »
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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #79 on: July 01, 2012, 02:45:45 AM »
Just so it's clear, I am not saying anything about how we, as Christians, should respond to these children. I am saying how the law should respond to them, which is quite another thing entirely.
The law is merely a human construct created to manifest our response to certain situations. It is not capable of responding to anything on its own.
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Offline EkhristosAnesti

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #80 on: July 01, 2012, 03:03:42 AM »
Quote
To us legal realists, the law is simply what the courts do, in fact, and nothing more pretentious. It is not the attempt of human kind to approximate divine justice or create God's kingdom on earth: that is the work of Christ's Church.

The work of Christ's Church extends beyond its borders to all of "human kind". The Church's mission, which is instrumental to that of Christ, her Head, is the salvation of the whole world. The extent to which the Church has embraced the world is the extent to which the work of mankind has become the work of the Church; which is in turn the extent to which the Church has succeeded in its mission.
    
If it is the work of the Church, then, to reflect God's restorative justice in her dealings with sinners—and it is, then it is the work of the Church to work towards making sure the world embraces and works towards such justice also, particularly via her formal procedures for implementing and upholding justice (i.e. the legal system); for such is in the interests of the salvation of the world.

If the law is capable of facilitating a response to delinquency and crime that can effectively work towards the reconciliation and healing of all stakeholders, including the offender, then Orthodox Christians should be in favour of such a response. If it is not capable of facilitating such a response, then Orthodox Christians should be in favour of a change in the law that makes it so capable.

In the words of the Armenian Catholicos H.H. Aram I:

The ultimate aim of restorative justice is healing and reconciliation. Therefore, the churches should promote the kind of juridical-legal system where preventive, punitive and restorative justice are taken together for the transformation of the whole society.

Note how His Holiness' words resonate with what I said earlier about how other goals/ends of justice (e.g. punishment and prevention) are not completely disregarded by RJ theory, but rather contextualised within an RJ framework.
 
Quote
I think the theory of restorative justice underestimates the value of denunciation of an offender's conduct and the victim's need to see the offender suffer some loss. Restorative justice can account for these things but I think its analysis of them is strained and unnatural, as well as not true to reality. Victims don't care about "reintegration".

Actually, denunciation of an offender's conduct is considered an INTEGRAL feature of RJ. It is not simply, contrary to what you say, valued, it is in fact further deemed essential. John Braithwaite expands on this in his article 'Republicanism and Restorative Justice: An Explanatory and Normative Connection.'

Another flawed assumption you seem to be implicitly making is that RJ is offender-centred. The primary goal is restoration: of the victim, the offender, and affected communities. The needs and concerns of all stakeholders are considered. RJ proponents do not make assumptions about the needs of the victims; they ask them. Victims are given a powerfully vocal role and quite a great amount of direct control in RJ processes. This empowering privilege that RJ processes permit victims (and which account for high levels of victim satisfaction with RJ processes) is certainly not one they are able to enjoy in formal court proceedings where they are but witnesses/puppets in a 'The State vs. the Offender' showdown.

Quote
I understand that I've been somewhat dismissive before now. For that I apologise. Please, though, do not assume I know nothing of what you are speaking simply because I am not agreeing with you, especially when I have said I have at least some real world expertise.

There is nothing to apologise for. All is good.

I did not mean to assume anything on your part. I have no problem with you disagreeing with me. You do, however, seem to have made some incorrect assumptions about the nature and goals of RJ which I've felt the need to address.

Quote
Anyway, I meant that I was pleased to see you posting again: please consider it re-iterated.

Thank you. That's kind of you. I enjoyed the discussion. I don't think I'll have the time to post any further for the time being. It's probably a good time for me to end discussion here anyway given that it seems to have gone off on a rather broad tangent. I only ever raised the subject of restorative justice in the course of suggesting those values and principles integral to it which I feel to be more apt to an appropriate Orthodox Christian attitude and response to the subject of the thread.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 03:07:50 AM by EkhristosAnesti »
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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #81 on: July 01, 2012, 05:43:40 AM »
if my parents had caught me doing something like that i'd have been one sorry little boy.

Oooh, yes indeedy! in my day, it would have been a race as to who would have got to you first to, er, point out the error of your ways.  ;) :o

Offline The young fogey

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #82 on: July 01, 2012, 12:22:52 PM »
The abdication of adults: The real story of this outrage is not the old news that 13-year-olds are often monsters (so this is what ‘free to be’ child-rearing has wrought, Lord of the Flies: remember original sin and concupiscence?) but, as I blogged earlier, that the victim and bus driver, both adults, did nothing to stop it. (I just read here that the driver didn’t know because Mrs Klein was in back.) Well-meant crap like No Place for Hate™ is worthless. (Again, if anything it would cause a backlash from the kids.) Those little brats need the ‘board of education’ or a British rattan cane (the discipline that honed natural talent, which built an empire). One to three strapping men are the only ‘Bullying and Violence Response Team’ you need. (The whiny psychologizing is Christian ethics without Christ so it’s emasculated.)

A year’s suspension that's not really a suspension because you get to go to a special school, a one-year ban from the bus, and a smirking fake apology don’t seem strong enough punishments.
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Offline biro

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #83 on: July 01, 2012, 12:36:12 PM »
Anybody thought about packing these little brats off to military school? They don't take any crap there. Just an idea.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: This bus monitor bullying incident...
« Reply #84 on: July 01, 2012, 01:12:13 PM »
Anybody thought about packing these little brats off to military school? They don't take any crap there. Just an idea.

I like it. I guess that's true if it's a good school but if it's not good enough and the brats are smart enough, they just learn to be better bullies, yes-sirring the grownups into giving them rank so they can haze the newer, younger and weaker cadets.
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