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Author Topic: If Mary is sinless...  (Read 13641 times) Average Rating: 0
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casisthename
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« on: June 10, 2011, 11:15:39 PM »

If Mary is sinless why do we need a savior? Can't we choose to not sin? I mean ok yeah I can't think of anyone but Jesus and Mary but it's possible so why is salvation not through works of the law? Also, were does the premise of Mary being sinless come from?
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« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2011, 11:29:47 PM »

Some time ago, Stephen Colbert had an interview on his show, The Colbert Report, with some author (whose name I can't recall) who wrote a book exploring the eight major religions of the world.

A focus of his book was to identify each religion's perception of the primary problem with humanity and the world. In his opinion, for Islam the primary problem is pride; for Confucianism the primary problem is social disorder; for Judaism the primary problem is exile; for Daoism the primary problem is the suppression of human liberty. These are all problems of the human condition according to the Orthodox Christian worldview, but they are all part and parcel of a more fundamental problem.

Unfortunately, this guest author missed the mark (pun intended  Smiley) and identified "sin" as the primary problem which Christianity seeks to deal with. He probably came to that conclusion because such is the prevalent view amongst Protestant Christians in particular.

According to Orthodoxy, sin is as secondary as the rest of the problems accounted for above. The primary problem is: death.

It was death that the Holy Virgin was in need of being saved from.

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« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2011, 04:04:38 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

If Mary is sinless why do we need a savior? Can't we choose to not sin? I mean ok yeah I can't think of anyone but Jesus and Mary but it's possible so why is salvation not through works of the law? Also, were does the premise of Mary being sinless come from?

While Our Lady lived a life free from the taint of personal sin, she like all of us fellow human beings was born under the curse of Original Sin, which only the Cross could save us from.  Further, Mary was not necessarily able to maintain a life free from personal sin on her own, rather it is in the Grace of God, that she is the very Mother of God and then Full of Grace in the first place.  Of course, even if she was sinless from her own individual effort, regardless she still had Original Sin like us all which Christ alone could redeem.  Even through a perfected life, Mary could not redeem herself, just as even if we live our own lives free from personal sin, still we must embrace the Divine Mysteries to be redeemed from Original Sin which inherently drives us towards personal sins.

Stay Blessed,
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« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2011, 06:44:48 PM »

Also, at this point it must be made clear that the Orthodox view of Original Sin is not the same as the Roman Catholic or Protestant views.
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« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2011, 07:28:14 PM »

Also, at this point it must be made clear that the Orthodox view of Original Sin is not the same as the Roman Catholic or Protestant views.

Don't start that here.
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« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2011, 07:32:48 PM »

Also, at this point it must be made clear that the Orthodox view of Original Sin is not the same as the Roman Catholic or Protestant views.

Don't start that here.

It was only a matter of time. 
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« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2011, 07:48:36 PM »

nice one EkhristosAnesti  indeed, death is the main problem-not a sin...  Grin

maybe it would be good to know that death does not have the same treatment by all of the church fathers because there are many different deaths-to put it like that.... many christians today do not make difference between cognitive,biological and ontological death

ontological death means that someone has slipped out from the memory of God i.e. vječnaja pamjat in old slavonic or the eternal memory... this kind of identity is not defined with the relationship towards God rather it is defined through the relationship with nature.In the light of this we see Christ as the savior of the entire created world even the angels. because angels live eternally,someone would think that they dont need Christ in the ontological sense but what is important here is not their immortality defined by nature but their PERSONAL immoratality.If they dont show the desire to be a part of the relationship which Christ himself creates between God (uncreated) and the created beings,their nature-defined immortality will be of no use to them- they will fall into the anonymous land of the dead.Christ saves the entire created universe-even the angels-because THE ETERNAL LIFE AND EXISTENCE OF A PERSON DEPENDS ON HIS OR HER RELATIONSHIP TOWARDS GOD and not on the immortal soul etc. This relationship is realized through freedom and love and it is represented in Christ through the system of relationships in Church. Angels are part of this relationship too-we will know this when we come to realize that relationship and love (God) create personalities ex nihil (from nothing-ness)

unfortunately,the contemporary orthodox theology has suffered a certain  kind  of corrosion by the spirituality that proclaims  freedom and love too tough to deal with and the same spirituality seeks the existential taste of our faith in the ideas which calm our soul.it is like nature gives us peace and personality as freedom is very dangerous.in this kind of atmosphere,we comfort ourselves with stories of the immortal soul(forgetting the fact that fathers did not treat soul and man as something which is the same because our soul is only a part of  us) but we do not LONG FOR THE RESURRECTION OF OUR BODIES and ourselves as complete beings.

therefore, it is not important wheter mother of God is sinless or not but-can she save us from death... I think we all agree on that 1  angel

by the way,casisthename-you cannot choose not to sin if your perception of good and evil needs tuning ...

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He wasnt joking...
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« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2011, 07:57:20 PM »

There is a clip about all this ... too bad many people here do not understand Serbian-however,u may enjoy the music



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dslwTNWBtx4
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« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2011, 08:02:06 PM »

Also, at this point it must be made clear that the Orthodox view of Original Sin is not the same as the Roman Catholic or Protestant views.

Don't start that here.

They added statues and changed the Creed! FIE UPON THE BLAH!!!!
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« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2011, 10:38:54 PM »

Also, at this point it must be made clear that the Orthodox view of Original Sin is not the same as the Roman Catholic or Protestant views.

Don't start that here.

Don't start what here?
Also, at this point it must be made clear that the Orthodox view of Original Sin is not the same as the Roman Catholic or Protestant views.

Don't start that here.

Don't start what here? it's a simple fact. When most people hear the term "Original Sin", they immediately think of the Roman Catholic view. Sometimes they might think of Protestant views, such as those from the early reformists.

You are immediately assuming that there is some underlying hostile-ness or some bad intention to my post. I have no clue where you can possibly get that from.

I'm simply stating a fact. As I said, it is well known that most people think of the Roman Catholic doctrine of Original Sin when someone mentions "Original Sin". casisthename is a new member, so we aren't aware of what he knows so far about Orthodoxy. He might know about the distinctions between the RCC and the EO views, or he might not. We need to be respectful of that.
Also for the sake of other people viewing the discussion, it is helpful to make it clear what our viewpoint actually is.

We cannot simply assume that someone already knows everything about Orthodox doctrine. If they did, then why are they here asking questions? Do you suggest Vladimir Lossky's "Mystical Theology" to a new catechumen or inquirer? Or do you ask them to begin with "The Orthodox Church" by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, or the "Rainbow Series" by Fr. Thomas Hopko?

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The Orthodox doctrine of "ancestral sin", or "original sin", is simply the belief that upon the fall, mankind became broken and our image became disfigured. from the fall onward, we are all subject to death. Each human being inherits this "curse", however we don't inherit the "guilt" of our ancestor's sins. This "curse" or "ancestral sin" is wiped away at our baptism.

As for Mary, she was sinless, however, she was still subject to death and was still a broken human being. Therefore, she still needed a savior. Even when she lived a life without any personal sin, she still died, as we all will die.
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« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2011, 10:51:13 PM »

Also, at this point it must be made clear that the Orthodox view of Original Sin is not the same as the Roman Catholic or Protestant views.

Don't start that here.

They added statues

And pews.
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And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2011, 10:53:19 PM »

Also, at this point it must be made clear that the Orthodox view of Original Sin is not the same as the Roman Catholic or Protestant views.

Don't start that here.

They added statues

And pews.

and organs.
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« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2011, 10:57:59 PM »

I don’t mean to disagree with Ekhristos, who  is much more learned about Orthodoxy than I am. But I do think that sin is the main problem. Or, perhaps more accurately, we should not separate sin and death since sin is the cause of death.

As for the question of why we need the Cross if Mary was sinless…
 
I may be wrong (and others can correct me here), but it is my understanding that the Cross has saved all the Saints and all the righteous from the beginning of Creation. We cannot help but to view history in linear fashion, but from the divine and eternal perspective, it was the efficacy of the Cross that redeemed Adam and Eve, Moses and Abraham, Our Lady the Virgin Mary, and the all Saints thereafter. It was the power of the Cross that enabled the faithful to endure the spiritual struggle and victoriously enter heaven. So, Mary was holy and righteous, but only because of Christ and His Cross.

That is my humble understanding, and I may need to be corrected. I welcome other opinions.

Selam
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« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2011, 11:42:43 PM »

Also, at this point it must be made clear that the Orthodox view of Original Sin is not the same as the Roman Catholic or Protestant views.

Don't start that here.

They added statues

And pews.

and organs.

and fonts of holy water at the entrance to their churches for the faithful to cross them selves with.
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And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2011, 11:48:02 PM »

It should also be noted that salvation is more about union to something (God) rather than pardon from something (sin) or deliverance from something (death), etc.

Only God Himself, entering into the material world, could make the union of material beings with Him possible. That is something that Mary, herself not being God, could never accomplish.
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« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2011, 11:48:37 PM »

Also, at this point it must be made clear that the Orthodox view of Original Sin is not the same as the Roman Catholic or Protestant views.

Don't start that here.

They added statues

And pews.

and organs.

and fonts of holy water at the entrance to their churches for the faithful to cross them selves with.

And beardless faces.
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« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2011, 11:57:20 PM »

Also, at this point it must be made clear that the Orthodox view of Original Sin is not the same as the Roman Catholic or Protestant views.

Don't start that here.

They added statues

And pews.

and organs.

and fonts of holy water at the entrance to their churches for the faithful to cross them selves with.

and beardless faces.

and scapulars.
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« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2011, 11:58:31 PM »

Also, at this point it must be made clear that the Orthodox view of Original Sin is not the same as the Roman Catholic or Protestant views.

Don't start that here.

They added statues

And pews.

and organs.

and fonts of holy water at the entrance to their churches for the faithful to cross them selves with.

And beardless faces.
and "priest suits"


(sorry, I couldn't help it)  Grin
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« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2011, 01:46:14 AM »

Hi GMK,

Quote
But I do think that sin is the main problem. Or, perhaps more accurately, we should not separate sin and death since sin is the cause of death.

I think it's more accurate to speak of death as the cause of sin (cf. I Cor. 15:56 where St Paul says, 'the sting of death is sin'); and that is precisely why death, and not sin, is the fundamental problem.

To be clear, by 'death' I don't refer exclusively to the idea of physical mortality, but also, and more importantly and more relevantly, to the spiritual sense of a life outside of the life of God; a departure from the life of Grace. Such is the state of death into which we all enter the world. It is this state of death which provokes and facilitates our predilections and propensities towards sin (cf. Romans 5:21 where St Paul speaks of sin reigning in death).
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« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2011, 01:57:55 AM »

Was it not sin that caused the first death, though?
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« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2011, 05:18:04 AM »

Was it not sin that caused the first death, though?

strictly speaking-yes... but the tragedy of adam and eve is that they tried to organize their lives without God... to find their identity outside God (and when God asked them about what they did-they denied the responsibility(in the words of Alfred Lord Tennyson-SIN IS TOO STUPID TO SEE BEYOND ITSELF)... that is why Christ came and that is why st.Maxim the confessor says-even if Adam and Eve did not sin Christ would become man
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« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2011, 07:19:18 AM »

Wait...so did Mary sin? I mean if we can't choose not to sin...
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« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2011, 03:32:29 PM »

Wait...so did Mary sin? I mean if we can't choose not to sin...

No one ever said we can't choose not to sin. We can definitely choose not to sin. We choose when to sin and when not to. When we choose not to, then we are making the right choice, and we are seeking communion with God. When we choose to sin, we are separating ourselves from God.
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« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2011, 06:45:43 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior!
Wait...so did Mary sin? I mean if we can't choose not to sin...

No, while Our Lady was merely a human woman, she is Full of Grace of God which keeps her from her own sinful nature.  Our Lady is only subject to the Original Sin (that is the Orthodox concept of the fractured, dying humans) which is why she died in the earthly sense, indeed we commemorate her "reposing" as a major holiday precisely to celebrate her humanity and subsequent kinship with ourselves.  However, though Our Lady was subject to Original Sin in her flesh, God protected her with His Grace, which is why we title her "Full of Grace" as it was the Grace of God which kept her from committing personal sin like we all do.  Again, none of as can chose or chose not to sin, sin is the reflexive action of the human condition, but in God's Grace we can be kept spotless as was Our Lady. This is why Our Lord said, "With men this is impossible, but nothing is impossible for God."

Stay Blessed,
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« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2011, 08:24:10 PM »

Now here is something that is a very interesting question and I think Judaism re-enforces the Eastern Orthodox perspective on this issue, and disagrees with the Catholic view of immaculate conception...  (I'm going to be VERY basic on this answer it goes MUCH deeper)  Orthodox original sin is something that has been under debate, and there are some variations between (mostly in name) between Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox.

1) The Eastern Orthodox church believes that Mary (the Theotokos) had every capability of sin and that she was born with Original sin and capable of death (some call it ancestor sin http://www.east2west.org/doctrine.htm#Sin).  However, she resisted the "stain of sin".  (This will agree with the Jewish teaching in #3) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Christian_theology#Original_sin)

2) The Roman Catholic church teaches a heresy that she was born immaculately. They did this to address the issue that Mary would transfer original sin to Our Lord unless she was immaculately conceived.   (This heresy came through the lack of understanding of the Jewish teaching of #3)

3) Heavy Orthodox Jews who hold total tradition ("you were born in utter sin!!!!" John 9:34 to the man born blind), believe that ALL men were born in sin.  HOWEVER, they believe that the sin is transferred through the male seed.  VERY INTERESTING!  

SO basically if we root back to Orthodox Judaism -  Mary was born in "utter sin" since she has a full lineage to David and was born from real human conception through intercourse.

But Jesus Christ our Lord and savior was NOT born in "utter sin", however, still of a human.  
He was NOT born through a Male seed of typical conception (sorry no intercourse for you Mormon readers)!  Thus, through an Orthodox Jew logic, the original sin never transferred since Jesus was not subject to a male seed from the fallen Adam!

This way the humanity of Mary was passed down to God who became flesh, but did NOT transfer the Original sin (so Jesus was indeed sinless but 100% man, and 100% God).

This is something that I feel the Roman Catholic church never understood when they came up with the heretical teaching of immaculate conception of Mary.  They tried to make something convenient to their church teaching which somebody in ignorance to Judaism would, when all they had to do is root back to Jewish teaching of original sin.

Though I have not heard an Eastern Orthodox Christian explain it this way (I learned the original sin transferring from a male seed from an Orthodox Jew) I find this COMPLETELY amazing.   I

Kind of neat!  It kind of gave me chills when I heard that Orthodox Jewish Rabbi explain the male seed thing.  Made me sort of point to the RC church and say "Ah Ha!  That heresy is not needed to complete the result that you were trying to accomplish!".

Anyway, so to conclude, we absolutely need a savior that was neither born in sin nor had the stain of sin.  
The Theotokos was capable of sins, but completely resisted sins, though she was born with complete "utter" original sin.

Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was neither born in "utter sin (original sin)", nor had the stain of sin, but had the capabilities of sin (as a human), but completely resisted them.





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« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2011, 08:58:35 PM »

Was it not sin that caused the first death, though?

strictly speaking-yes... but the tragedy of adam and eve is that they tried to organize their lives without God... to find their identity outside God (and when God asked them about what they did-they denied the responsibility(in the words of Alfred Lord Tennyson-SIN IS TOO STUPID TO SEE BEYOND ITSELF)... that is why Christ came and that is why st.Maxim the confessor says-even if Adam and Eve did not sin Christ would become man

This is interesting. Would you mind elaborating on it a little bit more?


Selam
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« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2011, 09:00:29 PM »


As for the question of why we need the Cross if Mary was sinless…
 
I may be wrong (and others can correct me here), but it is my understanding that the Cross has saved all the Saints and all the righteous from the beginning of Creation. We cannot help but to view history in linear fashion, but from the divine and eternal perspective, it was the efficacy of the Cross that redeemed Adam and Eve, Moses and Abraham, Our Lady the Virgin Mary, and the all Saints thereafter. It was the power of the Cross that enabled the faithful to endure the spiritual struggle and victoriously enter heaven. So, Mary was holy and righteous, but only because of Christ and His Cross.


Selam



*BUMP*

Can anyone tell me if I am correct here?


Selam
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« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2011, 09:43:14 PM »

It is arguable that death was in some way at the root even of the sin of Adam and Eve. In his On the Incarnation, St Athanasius speaks of man's participation in the life of Grace (i.e. 'true life') in Paradise being contingent upon perfect contemplation of God. As soon as man entertained the suggestion of the serpent to pursue another life apart from that defined by the will and commandment of God; as soon as the mind of man turned to simply consider and deliberate such a matter; his perfect contemplation of the Divine was compromised, and thus his participation in true life disrupted.
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« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2011, 09:50:24 PM »

Also, at this point it must be made clear that the Orthodox view of Original Sin is not the same as the Roman Catholic or Protestant views.

Don't start that here.

They added statues

And pews.

and organs.

and fonts of holy water at the entrance to their churches for the faithful to cross them selves with.

And beardless faces.

Not so, in ROCOR even our Slavic women keep the tradition!
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« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2011, 11:40:59 PM »


It is arguable that death was in some way at the root even of the sin of Adam and Eve. In his On the Incarnation, St Athanasius speaks of man's participation in the life of Grace (i.e. 'true life') in Paradise being contingent upon perfect contemplation of God. As soon as man entertained the suggestion of the serpent to pursue another life apart from that defined by the will and commandment of God; as soon as the mind of man turned to simply consider and deliberate such a matter; his perfect contemplation of the Divine was compromised, and thus his participation in true life disrupted.


This is very interesting. Thank you. I remember in my Calvinist days when I used to agonize over the question of how Adam fell. If he was perfect and sinless, how could he choose sin? But now I understand how fundamental the doctrine of free will is to Orthodox theology.

I still maintain - and please don't hesitate to correct me - that sin and death are inextricably intertwined. But I do agree that we should remember that death is not just physical, but more importantly and more profoundly, death is a spiritual separation from God. And that is why free will is such a glorious gift from God and why we should nurture this gift as best we can.

Of course, the former Calvinist in me would ask, "Then why the need for the Cross?" And I would answer that as powerful as the gift of free will is, our will is still impotent to lead us to salvation apart from the efficacy of the Cross.

Just thinking out loud.


Selam
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« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2011, 12:17:19 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


As for the question of why we need the Cross if Mary was sinless…
 
I may be wrong (and others can correct me here), but it is my understanding that the Cross has saved all the Saints and all the righteous from the beginning of Creation. We cannot help but to view history in linear fashion, but from the divine and eternal perspective, it was the efficacy of the Cross that redeemed Adam and Eve, Moses and Abraham, Our Lady the Virgin Mary, and the all Saints thereafter. It was the power of the Cross that enabled the faithful to endure the spiritual struggle and victoriously enter heaven. So, Mary was holy and righteous, but only because of Christ and His Cross.


Selam



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Can anyone tell me if I am correct here?


Selam

Yes, all the acts of Salvation are eternal, all of the Divine Mysteries exist forever, unifying past, present, and future as a solitary arc of moment from God's infinite perspective.  However, just the view in the horizon exists on its own, but is not visible until you reach it, the Salvation of the Cross always existed from the Beginning of Creation, however our human perspective is limited until each of us individually approaches that Cross to redeem that eternally offered opportunity.  From God, the Salvation of the Cross always existed, but from our limited, human perspective, we were subject unto Sin until that human, earthly, moment when the Incarnated Christ bore the wounds of Death at the Cross.  While the Salvation obtained there of always existed in God, it was not manifested in our format until the Cross that shadowed afternoon in Jerusalem.  So the Angels always rejoiced at the potential, ever knowing the inevitable outcome, however we ourselves from our limited, pin-point perspective must wait for that arc of God's Time to reach us hear in this  continuum.

Stay Blessed,
Habte Selassie
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« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2011, 01:05:36 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


As for the question of why we need the Cross if Mary was sinless…
 
I may be wrong (and others can correct me here), but it is my understanding that the Cross has saved all the Saints and all the righteous from the beginning of Creation. We cannot help but to view history in linear fashion, but from the divine and eternal perspective, it was the efficacy of the Cross that redeemed Adam and Eve, Moses and Abraham, Our Lady the Virgin Mary, and the all Saints thereafter. It was the power of the Cross that enabled the faithful to endure the spiritual struggle and victoriously enter heaven. So, Mary was holy and righteous, but only because of Christ and His Cross.


Selam



*BUMP*

Can anyone tell me if I am correct here?


Selam

Yes, all the acts of Salvation are eternal, all of the Divine Mysteries exist forever, unifying past, present, and future as a solitary arc of moment from God's infinite perspective.  However, just the view in the horizon exists on its own, but is not visible until you reach it, the Salvation of the Cross always existed from the Beginning of Creation, however our human perspective is limited until each of us individually approaches that Cross to redeem that eternally offered opportunity.  From God, the Salvation of the Cross always existed, but from our limited, human perspective, we were subject unto Sin until that human, earthly, moment when the Incarnated Christ bore the wounds of Death at the Cross.  While the Salvation obtained there of always existed in God, it was not manifested in our format until the Cross that shadowed afternoon in Jerusalem.  So the Angels always rejoiced at the potential, ever knowing the inevitable outcome, however we ourselves from our limited, pin-point perspective must wait for that arc of God's Time to reach us hear in this  continuum.

Stay Blessed,
Habte Selassie

Give thanks brother.


Selam
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« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2011, 12:26:52 PM »

Was it not sin that caused the first death, though?

strictly speaking-yes... but the tragedy of adam and eve is that they tried to organize their lives without God... to find their identity outside God (and when God asked them about what they did-they denied the responsibility(in the words of Alfred Lord Tennyson-SIN IS TOO STUPID TO SEE BEYOND ITSELF)... that is why Christ came and that is why st.Maxim the confessor says-even if Adam and Eve did not sin Christ would become man

This is interesting. Would you mind elaborating on it a little bit more?


Selam

I'll try to... ok... Adam and Eve denied their true identity.Person is an identity based on the relationship.Fathers have always talked about sin as about αμαρτία -which is Greek for missing the aim or the target.Sin is not a mare breaking of rules-it goes far beyond this ethical and moral approach.It is intertwined with our being and therefore with our existence.The missing of the aim is actually missing of the LOGOS which we are created to live with and within and the aim is Christ.Fighting against this αμαρτία is the essence of every christian.

Adam and Eve did not eat from the real tree-the tree of life is a communion with God, living in his life.We (mankind) refused this communion and we were thrown out from the garden of Eden-it wasnt a paradise island or anything-it was the change of our way of existence.We became mortal and everything that goes with it.God has only noted that it was like this. In a nutshell,we made our own shortcut (and it wasnt the 1 on the desktop  Grin ) and we chose to become gods without God.

The great apostole Paul says that -through sin came death- but does this mean that God created death-No.Adam did not steal or kill so he made no moral violation.Adam made a mistake because he tried to become God (which was his legitimate right) in the wrong and impossible way and because Adam manifested himself through his own nature,death entered the stage.Adam's free will and his decision to turn to his,created nature and not to his Creator are a direct reason for the existence of death. I have always thought about this context when reffering to the words of st.Paul -through sin came death-

I hope this helps 
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« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2011, 11:24:44 AM »

I don’t mean to disagree with Ekhristos, who  is much more learned about Orthodoxy than I am. But I do think that sin is the main problem. Or, perhaps more accurately, we should not separate sin and death since sin is the cause of death.

As for the question of why we need the Cross if Mary was sinless…
 
I may be wrong (and others can correct me here), but it is my understanding that the Cross has saved all the Saints and all the righteous from the beginning of Creation. We cannot help but to view history in linear fashion, but from the divine and eternal perspective, it was the efficacy of the Cross that redeemed Adam and Eve, Moses and Abraham, Our Lady the Virgin Mary, and the all Saints thereafter. It was the power of the Cross that enabled the faithful to endure the spiritual struggle and victoriously enter heaven. So, Mary was holy and righteous, but only because of Christ and His Cross.

That is my humble understanding, and I may need to be corrected. I welcome other opinions.

Selam

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« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2011, 12:05:10 PM »

But I do agree that we should remember that death is not just physical, but more importantly and more profoundly, death is a spiritual separation from God.

Was Jesus seperate from God on the cross spiritually then when he died and shouted out to God...is that what happened?? And if that didn't happen to Jesus as a human then that means he didn't die. And if that DID happen to Jesus on the cross then that means that God and Jesus were seperate which how can that even happen if both are God??
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« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2011, 12:12:18 PM »

Also, at this point it must be made clear that the Orthodox view of Original Sin is not the same as the Roman Catholic or Protestant views.

Don't start that here.

They added statues

And pews.

and organs.

and fonts of holy water at the entrance to their churches for the faithful to cross them selves with.

And beardless faces.
and "priest suits"


(sorry, I couldn't help it)  Grin

and effective large charitable organizations.
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« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2011, 01:49:13 PM »



And old hippy priests and nuns
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« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2011, 03:38:08 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


and effective large charitable organizations.

Agreed, with all the rightful attention to the "sex abuse" scandals rocking the contemporary Roman Catholic Church, it is shameful that the greater good which the Church has been maintaining has not also been highlighted.  The RC is the single largest source of charity in the world, whether we're talking about cash donations, services, medical care, or food.  The Church gets a lot of slack for its stance regarding condoms in Africa, and yet doesn't get rightful acknowledgment of the reality that it is the single largest source of both regular and also AIDS specific medical care in Africa. Whether we are in the third world or the "modern world" (the RC is also the largest NGO source of food assistance and medical care in the US, second only to the USDA and the US govt) the RC is the largest giver.  We especially in the Orthodox communities would benefit greatly from adopting some of the the RC charitable models in regards to endowments, food assistance, hospitals/medical care, and other crucial ministries that frankly are appallingly lacking with the Orthodox today.  We can't blame any kind of ontological or historical differences either, while politics may have influences the politicization of the Popes, Orthodox used to be equally a source of charity however more recent histories in the Orthodox world in regards to civil wars and such have really complicated matters and forced many of us in Orthodox into a rebuilding and survival mode.  Its time to break out and get back to work Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2011, 04:29:57 PM »

Something relavent from Fr. Ted in Dayton:
"The Theotokos -  she is in need of salvation in Christ as she is mortal.   But it is believed that her soul was pure which is why God selected her to be Mother to His Son.  That Mary willfully chose to say "yes" to the Annunciation is considered astonishing in Orthodoxy - the salvation of the world hung upon her freely agreeing to do God's will.  Meditating on what her inner spiritual life must have been for God to have chosen her to be Mother to His Son led to the conclusion that her purity must have been beyond anything any other human being ever attained.  Thus they could not come up with enough superlatives to describe her in meditation, poetry and song.   But since she was mortal, she was in need of salvation, and so yes her sinlessness is qualitatively different from Christ's."
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« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2011, 08:12:17 PM »

Also, at this point it must be made clear that the Orthodox view of Original Sin is not the same as the Roman Catholic or Protestant views.

Don't start that here.

They added statues

And pews.
No pews in your churches? WRO have statues.
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« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2011, 09:11:04 PM »

Also, at this point it must be made clear that the Orthodox view of Original Sin is not the same as the Roman Catholic or Protestant views.

Don't start that here.

They added statues

And pews.
No pews in your churches? WRO have statues.

That was my point. Out of all the things listed as being "added", the change in the creed is the only thing that should really be a dividing issue, which is why I left that out of my quote. Everything else is customary. So in keeping with highlighting the "differences"...



doing the sign of the cross backwards   Tongue
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« Reply #41 on: July 19, 2011, 12:16:07 AM »

Also, at this point it must be made clear that the Orthodox view of Original Sin is not the same as the Roman Catholic or Protestant views.

Don't start that here.

They added statues

And pews.
No pews in your churches? WRO have statues.

That was my point. Out of all the things listed as being "added", the change in the creed is the only thing that should really be a dividing issue, which is why I left that out of my quote. Everything else is customary. So in keeping with highlighting the "differences"...



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Oh yeah, why do you guys do it backwards? Tongue
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« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2011, 01:08:21 AM »


Was Jesus separate from God on the cross spiritually then when he died and shouted out to God...is that what happened?? And if that didn't happen to Jesus as a human then that means he didn't die. And if that DID happen to Jesus on the cross then that means that God and Jesus were separate which how can that even happen if both are God??

I assume you're talking about this:

"And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"
- Mark 15:34

This is actually a prayer from the Psalmist:

"To the Chief Musician. Set to 'The Deer of the Dawn.' A Psalm of David. My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? Why are You so far from helping Me, And from the words of My groaning?"
- Psalm 22:1

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« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2011, 01:49:05 AM »

If Mary is sinless why do we need a savior? Can't we choose to not sin? I mean ok yeah I can't think of anyone but Jesus and Mary but it's possible so why is salvation not through works of the law? Also, were does the premise of Mary being sinless come from?

Mary was not without ancestral sin. Mary needed Christ to heal her of ancestral sin.
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« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2011, 06:46:33 AM »

Also, at this point it must be made clear that the Orthodox view of Original Sin is not the same as the Roman Catholic or Protestant views.

Don't start that here.

They added statues

And pews.

and organs.

and fonts of holy water at the entrance to their churches for the faithful to cross them selves with.

And beardless faces.
and "priest suits"


(sorry, I couldn't help it)  Grin

and effective large charitable organizations.

and popes with super powers.
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