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Offline Aindriú

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #90 on: October 08, 2011, 11:36:13 AM »
is there any reference in our services about Mary being sinless?

Isn't she often called "immaculate"?

Yes, but that would still fit in with the belief that she was purified at the time of the Annunciation.

"she was vouchsafed to be purified by the Holy Spirit Who came upon her, and to conceive of Him the very Saviour of the world"

If that's true, did she then not sin for the remainder of her life?

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Offline peteprint

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #91 on: October 08, 2011, 11:42:42 AM »
I can accept that.  Sin, in the simplest understanding, means missing the mark.  I don't believe that the Theotokos ever committed what we would consider a serious sin, even before her purification.

When the disciples dozed-off while the Lord was praying in the garden, was that a "sin".  I am not sure that every human shortcoming is necessarily a sin, but the result of sin, our deficient nature.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2011, 11:51:03 AM by peteprint »

Offline peteprint

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #92 on: October 08, 2011, 11:44:41 AM »
Even when St. John Chrysostom criticized her for asking the Lord to make the wine at the wedding feast, that action is not necessarily a sin.  No one is perfect except for God.

Offline Ionnis

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #93 on: October 08, 2011, 12:09:53 PM »
Even when St. John Chrysostom criticized her for asking the Lord to make the wine at the wedding feast, that action is not necessarily a sin.  No one is perfect except for God.

Our Lady was certainly sinless! And St John has never been in a position nor ever will be in a position to criticize the Mother of God. She is judged by no one. Her supremacy and perfection is inconceivable. I would elaborate but I'm out with a friend. Just can't stand when people attempt to lessen her status.
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Offline peteprint

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #94 on: October 08, 2011, 12:17:32 PM »
Even when St. John Chrysostom criticized her for asking the Lord to make the wine at the wedding feast, that action is not necessarily a sin.  No one is perfect except for God.

Our Lady was certainly sinless! And St John has never been in a position nor ever will be in a position to criticize the Mother of God. She is judged by no one. Her supremacy and perfection is inconceivable. I would elaborate but I'm out with a friend. Just can't stand when people attempt to lessen her status.

With all respect, aren't you going overboard?  Why the rush to defend any perceived "lessening" of her status?  What status would that be, Co-Redeemer?  You know more than St. John Chrysostom, one of the Three Holy Hierarchs?  "Her supremacy and perfection is inconceivable"?  That sounds awfully like Mariolatry to my ears.  Supremacy over what or whom?  The Theotokos is certainly judged by Christ, as is every human being, unless you don't consider her to be a woman.

Offline Timon

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #95 on: October 08, 2011, 12:20:44 PM »
Even when St. John Chrysostom criticized her for asking the Lord to make the wine at the wedding feast, that action is not necessarily a sin.  No one is perfect except for God.

Our Lady was certainly sinless! And St John has never been in a position nor ever will be in a position to criticize the Mother of God. She is judged by no one. Her supremacy and perfection is inconceivable. I would elaborate but I'm out with a friend. Just can't stand when people attempt to lessen her status.

I personally would like to hear you elaborate whenever you get the chance, as this has always been a tough issue for me.
Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

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Offline peteprint

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #96 on: October 08, 2011, 12:33:24 PM »
Ionnis has quoted on another thread the story that St. Silouan supposedly heard a voice from heaven once telling him that the Theotokos never had a sinful thought her entire life.  But St. Silouan also supposedly stated that:

"Thanks to monks, prayer continues unceasing on earth, and the whole world profits, for through prayer the world continues to exist; but when prayer fails, the world will perish."

Where in our Orthodox theology of 2000 years is it taught that the world will cease to exist if people stop praying?  I thought God decided the time and date when the Lord will return and the end of the world will occur.

I write "supposedly," since my understanding is that these stories about St. Silouan were the remembrances of others, and even if he did write them himself, the writings of a monk on Athos from the 19th or 20th century don't trump the entire deposit of writings from the past 2000 years.  We don't have a developing theology like the RCC.

What makes the teachings of St. Silouan more correct than the writings of St. John Chrysostom?
« Last Edit: October 08, 2011, 12:36:16 PM by peteprint »

Offline Melodist

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #97 on: October 08, 2011, 12:45:11 PM »
Where in our Orthodox theology of 2000 years is it taught that the world will cease to exist if people stop praying?  I thought God decided the time and date when the Lord will return and the end of the world will occur.

I don't think this is a prophecy about the end of the world, but a statement of the world's dependence on the presence of the Church as the Body of Christ making Him present in this world and prayer as a means of our communing with Him.

I must admit I'm not familiar with his writings and I don't know the greater context of that quote. This just seems to me to be the most probable explanation. Forgive me if I am missing the context.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline Aindriú

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #98 on: October 08, 2011, 12:47:27 PM »
I can accept that.  Sin, in the simplest understanding, means missing the mark.  I don't believe that the Theotokos ever committed what we would consider a serious sin, even before her purification.

When the disciples dozed-off while the Lord was praying in the garden, was that a "sin".  I am not sure that every human shortcoming is necessarily a sin, but the result of sin, our deficient nature.

This, to me, also makes her unremarkable. In this light, she is just a random girl who God happened to pick.

To claim her to be sinless, in either RC or EO, requires her personal choice to resist sin in some way. I've heard it told that the whole reason the Jews were the 'chosen people' was because they were the people amongst the world who would eventually create a girl who would fully accept God. She was the top of the pyramid of humanity rising out of pagan hedonism and from which her FULL acceptance of God paved way for the Incarnation. If she was just an ordinary girl, perhaps a good girl, but still ordinary, then she is unremarkable except by happenstance.

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Offline peteprint

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #99 on: October 08, 2011, 12:51:47 PM »
I can accept that.  Sin, in the simplest understanding, means missing the mark.  I don't believe that the Theotokos ever committed what we would consider a serious sin, even before her purification.

When the disciples dozed-off while the Lord was praying in the garden, was that a "sin".  I am not sure that every human shortcoming is necessarily a sin, but the result of sin, our deficient nature.

This, to me, also makes her unremarkable. In this light, she is just a random girl who God happened to pick.

To claim her to be sinless, in either RC or EO, requires her personal choice to resist sin in some way. I've heard it told that the whole reason the Jews were the 'chosen people' was because they were the people amongst the world who would eventually create a girl who would fully accept God. She was the top of the pyramid of humanity rising out of pagan hedonism and from which her FULL acceptance of God paved way for the Incarnation. If she was just an ordinary girl, perhaps a good girl, but still ordinary, then she is unremarkable except by happenstance.

Of course the Theotokos was remarkable.  She had to be for God to choose her to be the mother of the Lord.

I am curious, where did you hear that the reason Abraham was chosen by God to be the originator of the Jewish people was because his descendants would produce the one woman capable of being the Mother of God?  I have never heard that before.

Offline Aindriú

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #100 on: October 08, 2011, 12:56:18 PM »
I can accept that.  Sin, in the simplest understanding, means missing the mark.  I don't believe that the Theotokos ever committed what we would consider a serious sin, even before her purification.

When the disciples dozed-off while the Lord was praying in the garden, was that a "sin".  I am not sure that every human shortcoming is necessarily a sin, but the result of sin, our deficient nature.

This, to me, also makes her unremarkable. In this light, she is just a random girl who God happened to pick.

To claim her to be sinless, in either RC or EO, requires her personal choice to resist sin in some way. I've heard it told that the whole reason the Jews were the 'chosen people' was because they were the people amongst the world who would eventually create a girl who would fully accept God. She was the top of the pyramid of humanity rising out of pagan hedonism and from which her FULL acceptance of God paved way for the Incarnation. If she was just an ordinary girl, perhaps a good girl, but still ordinary, then she is unremarkable except by happenstance.

Of course the Theotokos was remarkable.  She had to be for God to choose her to be the mother of the Lord.

I just don't find this remarkable, at all. To me this is happenstance, and in our own way we are all called to accept God.

I am curious, where did you hear that the reason Abraham was chosen by God to be the originator of the Jewish people was because his descendants would produce the one woman capable of being the Mother of God?  I have never heard that before.

Off the top of my head, I think the first time was from Fr. Hans Jacobse.


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Offline peteprint

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #101 on: October 08, 2011, 01:02:53 PM »
I can accept that.  Sin, in the simplest understanding, means missing the mark.  I don't believe that the Theotokos ever committed what we would consider a serious sin, even before her purification.

When the disciples dozed-off while the Lord was praying in the garden, was that a "sin".  I am not sure that every human shortcoming is necessarily a sin, but the result of sin, our deficient nature.

This, to me, also makes her unremarkable. In this light, she is just a random girl who God happened to pick.

To claim her to be sinless, in either RC or EO, requires her personal choice to resist sin in some way. I've heard it told that the whole reason the Jews were the 'chosen people' was because they were the people amongst the world who would eventually create a girl who would fully accept God. She was the top of the pyramid of humanity rising out of pagan hedonism and from which her FULL acceptance of God paved way for the Incarnation. If she was just an ordinary girl, perhaps a good girl, but still ordinary, then she is unremarkable except by happenstance.

Of course the Theotokos was remarkable.  She had to be for God to choose her to be the mother of the Lord.

I just don't find this remarkable, at all. To me this is happenstance, and in our own way we are all called to accept God.

I am curious, where did you hear that the reason Abraham was chosen by God to be the originator of the Jewish people was because his descendants would produce the one woman capable of being the Mother of God?  I have never heard that before.

Off the top of my head, I think the first time was from Fr. Hans Jacobse.



To me it is very remarkable that someone like Mary could be so righteous and godly that she would be chosen by God to be the bearer of His Son.  It's amazing actually, and shows how much holier she is than any other woman of the Old Testament.  On the other hand, if she was "created" for that purpose, than that would not be to her credit at all.

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #102 on: October 08, 2011, 01:52:14 PM »
Even when St. John Chrysostom criticized her for asking the Lord to make the wine at the wedding feast, that action is not necessarily a sin.  No one is perfect except for God.

Our Lady was certainly sinless! And St John has never been in a position nor ever will be in a position to criticize the Mother of God. She is judged by no one. Her supremacy and perfection is inconceivable. I would elaborate but I'm out with a friend. Just can't stand when people attempt to lessen her status.

With all respect, aren't you going overboard?  Why the rush to defend any perceived "lessening" of her status?  What status would that be, Co-Redeemer?  You know more than St. John Chrysostom, one of the Three Holy Hierarchs?  "Her supremacy and perfection is inconceivable"?  That sounds awfully like Mariolatry to my ears.  Supremacy over what or whom?  The Theotokos is certainly judged by Christ, as is every human being, unless you don't consider her to be a woman.

But we can say with the words of St. Epiphanius of Cyprus: "There is an equal harm in both these heresies, both when men demean the Virgin and when, on the contrary, they glorify Her beyond what is proper" (Panarion, Against the Collyridians)

Offline peteprint

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #103 on: October 08, 2011, 01:55:17 PM »
Even when St. John Chrysostom criticized her for asking the Lord to make the wine at the wedding feast, that action is not necessarily a sin.  No one is perfect except for God.

Our Lady was certainly sinless! And St John has never been in a position nor ever will be in a position to criticize the Mother of God. She is judged by no one. Her supremacy and perfection is inconceivable. I would elaborate but I'm out with a friend. Just can't stand when people attempt to lessen her status.

With all respect, aren't you going overboard?  Why the rush to defend any perceived "lessening" of her status?  What status would that be, Co-Redeemer?  You know more than St. John Chrysostom, one of the Three Holy Hierarchs?  "Her supremacy and perfection is inconceivable"?  That sounds awfully like Mariolatry to my ears.  Supremacy over what or whom?  The Theotokos is certainly judged by Christ, as is every human being, unless you don't consider her to be a woman.

But we can say with the words of St. Epiphanius of Cyprus: "There is an equal harm in both these heresies, both when men demean the Virgin and when, on the contrary, they glorify Her beyond what is proper" (Panarion, Against the Collyridians)

This is a wonderful quote.  I do ask forgiveness if I am guilty of the former.  I tend to have a knee-jerk reaction when I think that I perceive the latter in others.

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #104 on: October 08, 2011, 02:30:22 PM »
To me it would make no difference if God had chosen even the worst of sinners to bear his Son. Actually, it would be most remarkable I think. We know that God used "the worst of Sinners" (Paul) to carry out his mission to the Gentiles in order to bring more glory to Him. We see from the bloodline of Christ that many of those people were not known in the OT for their obedience for God, rather quite the contrary; yet God used them to pave the way for the Savior of our race.

So then, it makes no difference to me whatsoever of the "sin status" of Mary. It does not affect the gospel message in the slightest. God can work through the most righteous or the worst of sinners for His glory. I do know that She said "yes" to God at the annunciation and it was confirmed by Christ that she was blessed because she "heard the word of God and kept it". To me this is enough. I don't need to speculate as to why God chose her in the first place or whether or not she ever "sinned" in her life. She was human, she made mistakes, she was not perfect, therefore she did not have perfect knowledge. To me, speculation on such matters takes the emphasis away from the saving message of the gospel itself and places it elsewhere where it need not be. We know Christ is  entirely unique in his perfection and sinlessness.

We know from scripture that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" and from the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom that Christ is "the only sinless one". Shouldn't this be enough? Why should we feel the need to make allowances or exceptions to this? Does it bring God less glory if she sinned? I doubt this could be argued with any effectiveness, but I think it glorifies God just the same when he uses "the worst of sinners" to carry out his work.


« Last Edit: October 08, 2011, 02:32:22 PM by Ortho_cat »

Offline peteprint

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #105 on: October 08, 2011, 02:56:24 PM »
To me it would make no difference if God had chosen even the worst of sinners to bear his Son. Actually, it would be most remarkable I think. We know that God used "the worst of Sinners" (Paul) to carry out his mission to the Gentiles in order to bring more glory to Him. We see from the bloodline of Christ that many of those people were not known in the OT for their obedience for God, rather quite the contrary; yet God used them to pave the way for the Savior of our race.

So then, it makes no difference to me whatsoever of the "sin status" of Mary. It does not affect the gospel message in the slightest. God can work through the most righteous or the worst of sinners for His glory. I do know that She said "yes" to God at the annunciation and it was confirmed by Christ that she was blessed because she "heard the word of God and kept it". To me this is enough. I don't need to speculate as to why God chose her in the first place or whether or not she ever "sinned" in her life. She was human, she made mistakes, she was not perfect, therefore she did not have perfect knowledge. To me, speculation on such matters takes the emphasis away from the saving message of the gospel itself and places it elsewhere where it need not be. We know Christ is  entirely unique in his perfection and sinlessness.

We know from scripture that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" and from the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom that Christ is "the only sinless one". Shouldn't this be enough? Why should we feel the need to make allowances or exceptions to this? Does it bring God less glory if she sinned? I doubt this could be argued with any effectiveness, but I think it glorifies God just the same when he uses "the worst of sinners" to carry out his work.




Ortho_cat,

I agree with you 100%. 

As an aside, I remember reading somewhere, I think it was a RC priest, who said, "we can never praise Mary enough".  Does the Theotokos even want such praise?  I can't imagine her relishing some of the titles and hymns that have been given and written about her.  I think the best way to please the Mother of God would be to obey her son and keep His commandments.

Offline Ionnis

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #106 on: October 08, 2011, 03:18:41 PM »
Thank God this sort of Protestantizing influence doesn't exist in my parish. Simply shocking.
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Offline peteprint

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #107 on: October 08, 2011, 03:19:25 PM »
Repeating the quote from St. Epiphanius of Cyprus: "There is an equal harm in both these heresies, both when men demean the Virgin and when, on the contrary, they glorify Her beyond what is proper".


I just had an interesting thought.  Perhaps we can think of the Protestant attitude towards Mary as not giving the Virgin her due recognition, while the RC's are the other extreme, attributing too much praise and elevating Mary to the status of a demigod.  The Orthodox position, as elaborated in St. John Maximovitch's book is the correct middle ground.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2011, 03:21:02 PM by peteprint »

Offline peteprint

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #108 on: October 08, 2011, 03:22:37 PM »
Unfortunately, there are those in the Church who do not feel it is possible to glorify the Mother of God beyond what is proper.

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #109 on: October 08, 2011, 04:18:39 PM »
Thank God this sort of Protestantizing influence doesn't exist in my parish. Simply shocking.

What is shocking? That we have quoted scripture, the divine liturgy, and the writings of the saints to support our statements?  ??? I didn't know that Paul, St. John Chrysostom, and St. John Maximovitch were Protestants.

Offline Timon

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #110 on: October 08, 2011, 05:01:11 PM »
To me it would make no difference if God had chosen even the worst of sinners to bear his Son. Actually, it would be most remarkable I think. We know that God used "the worst of Sinners" (Paul) to carry out his mission to the Gentiles in order to bring more glory to Him. We see from the bloodline of Christ that many of those people were not known in the OT for their obedience for God, rather quite the contrary; yet God used them to pave the way for the Savior of our race.

So then, it makes no difference to me whatsoever of the "sin status" of Mary. It does not affect the gospel message in the slightest. God can work through the most righteous or the worst of sinners for His glory. I do know that She said "yes" to God at the annunciation and it was confirmed by Christ that she was blessed because she "heard the word of God and kept it". To me this is enough. I don't need to speculate as to why God chose her in the first place or whether or not she ever "sinned" in her life. She was human, she made mistakes, she was not perfect, therefore she did not have perfect knowledge. To me, speculation on such matters takes the emphasis away from the saving message of the gospel itself and places it elsewhere where it need not be. We know Christ is  entirely unique in his perfection and sinlessness.

We know from scripture that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" and from the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom that Christ is "the only sinless one". Shouldn't this be enough? Why should we feel the need to make allowances or exceptions to this? Does it bring God less glory if she sinned? I doubt this could be argued with any effectiveness, but I think it glorifies God just the same when he uses "the worst of sinners" to carry out his work.




well said.
Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

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Offline W.A.Mozart

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #111 on: October 08, 2011, 06:17:08 PM »
Even when St. John Chrysostom criticized her for asking the Lord to make the wine at the wedding feast, that action is not necessarily a sin.  No one is perfect except for God.

Our Lady was certainly sinless!

does this change anything about us... not to mention that we should clarify the ontological and moral view of the sin
« Last Edit: October 08, 2011, 06:21:24 PM by W.A.Mozart »
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Offline Aindriú

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #112 on: October 08, 2011, 06:18:51 PM »
Even when St. John Chrysostom criticized her for asking the Lord to make the wine at the wedding feast, that action is not necessarily a sin.  No one is perfect except for God.

Our Lady was certainly sinless!

does this change anything about us

Is that relevant?

I'm going to need this.

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #113 on: October 08, 2011, 06:21:33 PM »
Even when St. John Chrysostom criticized her for asking the Lord to make the wine at the wedding feast, that action is not necessarily a sin.  No one is perfect except for God.

Our Lady was certainly sinless!

does this change anything about us

Is that relevant?

I suppose I wonder what the relevance to the teaching is for us. If mary was sinless, what does that mean in the grand scheme of our salvation? I guess to me it seems somewhat like a stand-alone teaching (similar to the immaculate conception), where as all the other doctrines of the church ultimately point back to Christ and his saving work.

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #114 on: October 08, 2011, 06:23:46 PM »
Even when St. John Chrysostom criticized her for asking the Lord to make the wine at the wedding feast, that action is not necessarily a sin.  No one is perfect except for God.

Our Lady was certainly sinless!

does this change anything about us

Is that relevant?

I suppose I wonder what the relevance to the teaching is for us. If mary was sinless, what does that mean in the grand scheme of our salvation? I guess to me it seems somewhat like a stand-alone teaching (similar to the immaculate conception), where as all the other doctrines of the church ultimately point back to Christ and his saving work.

A woman who is capable of maintaining full communion with God for her whole life adds nothing to Christianity? I find that hard to believe, especially with the great love for many saints who struggled their whole lives to do the same.

I'm going to need this.

Offline peteprint

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #115 on: October 08, 2011, 06:26:06 PM »
Even when St. John Chrysostom criticized her for asking the Lord to make the wine at the wedding feast, that action is not necessarily a sin.  No one is perfect except for God.

Our Lady was certainly sinless!



does this change anything about us

Is that relevant?

I suppose I wonder what the relevance to the teaching is for us. If mary was sinless, what does that mean in the grand scheme of our salvation? I guess to me it seems somewhat like a stand-alone teaching (similar to the immaculate conception), where as all the other doctrines of the church ultimately point back to Christ and his saving work.

A woman who is capable of maintaining full communion with God for her whole life adds nothing to Christianity? I find that hard to believe, especially with the great love for many saints who struggled their whole lives to do the same.

The Theotokos had Full Communion with God as an infant?  She experienced Theosis as a child?

Offline Aindriú

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #116 on: October 08, 2011, 06:28:01 PM »
Even when St. John Chrysostom criticized her for asking the Lord to make the wine at the wedding feast, that action is not necessarily a sin.  No one is perfect except for God.

Our Lady was certainly sinless!



does this change anything about us

Is that relevant?

I suppose I wonder what the relevance to the teaching is for us. If mary was sinless, what does that mean in the grand scheme of our salvation? I guess to me it seems somewhat like a stand-alone teaching (similar to the immaculate conception), where as all the other doctrines of the church ultimately point back to Christ and his saving work.

A woman who is capable of maintaining full communion with God for her whole life adds nothing to Christianity? I find that hard to believe, especially with the great love for many saints who struggled their whole lives to do the same.

The Theotokos had Full Communion with God as an infant?  She experienced Theosis as a child?

Were Adam and Eve in a state of full theosis?

I'm going to need this.

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #117 on: October 08, 2011, 06:29:18 PM »
Even when St. John Chrysostom criticized her for asking the Lord to make the wine at the wedding feast, that action is not necessarily a sin.  No one is perfect except for God.

Our Lady was certainly sinless!



does this change anything about us

Is that relevant?

I suppose I wonder what the relevance to the teaching is for us. If mary was sinless, what does that mean in the grand scheme of our salvation? I guess to me it seems somewhat like a stand-alone teaching (similar to the immaculate conception), where as all the other doctrines of the church ultimately point back to Christ and his saving work.

A woman who is capable of maintaining full communion with God for her whole life adds nothing to Christianity? I find that hard to believe, especially with the great love for many saints who struggled their whole lives to do the same.

The Theotokos had Full Communion with God as an infant?  She experienced Theosis as a child?

Were Adam and Eve in a state of full theosis?

From what I have read from the Father's commentary, no.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2011, 06:29:39 PM by Ortho_cat »

Offline Aindriú

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #118 on: October 08, 2011, 06:31:19 PM »
Even when St. John Chrysostom criticized her for asking the Lord to make the wine at the wedding feast, that action is not necessarily a sin.  No one is perfect except for God.

Our Lady was certainly sinless!



does this change anything about us

Is that relevant?

I suppose I wonder what the relevance to the teaching is for us. If mary was sinless, what does that mean in the grand scheme of our salvation? I guess to me it seems somewhat like a stand-alone teaching (similar to the immaculate conception), where as all the other doctrines of the church ultimately point back to Christ and his saving work.

A woman who is capable of maintaining full communion with God for her whole life adds nothing to Christianity? I find that hard to believe, especially with the great love for many saints who struggled their whole lives to do the same.

The Theotokos had Full Communion with God as an infant?  She experienced Theosis as a child?

Were Adam and Eve in a state of full theosis?

From what I have read from the Father's commentary, no.

I haven't ever heard contrary, either.

Yet, until their fall, they were in communion with God ("walked with Him") without concupiscence, and yet still had the free will to choose otherwise.

I'm going to need this.

Offline peteprint

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #119 on: October 08, 2011, 06:41:56 PM »
Even when St. John Chrysostom criticized her for asking the Lord to make the wine at the wedding feast, that action is not necessarily a sin.  No one is perfect except for God.

Our Lady was certainly sinless!



does this change anything about us

Is that relevant?

I suppose I wonder what the relevance to the teaching is for us. If mary was sinless, what does that mean in the grand scheme of our salvation? I guess to me it seems somewhat like a stand-alone teaching (similar to the immaculate conception), where as all the other doctrines of the church ultimately point back to Christ and his saving work.

A woman who is capable of maintaining full communion with God for her whole life adds nothing to Christianity? I find that hard to believe, especially with the great love for many saints who struggled their whole lives to do the same.

The Theotokos had Full Communion with God as an infant?  She experienced Theosis as a child?

Were Adam and Eve in a state of full theosis?

From what I have read from the Father's commentary, no.

I haven't ever heard contrary, either.

Yet, until their fall, they were in communion with God ("walked with Him") without concupiscence, and yet still had the free will to choose otherwise.

Difficult to compare the two situations.  Adam and Eve were created fully grown as far as we know, while Mary was born an infant.  In what sense can a baby choose anything or commune with a person?

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #120 on: October 08, 2011, 06:45:21 PM »
Further complications arise when we assert this teaching of sinlessness. What are we to make of this verse?

Quote
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

Did this verse not apply to the Theotokos as well? Was he not including her when he says "our sins"? Did Christ not die for her sins also?

And what of the practice of the early church, confessing sins to each other:

Quote
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.

Did the Theotokos not partake in these communal prayers for forgiveness? Did she not need the prayers of others because she was already fully "healed"?

What of the sacrament of penance/confession? While all the other apostles were practicing this sacrament, are we to say that she did not?
[/quote]

What about this verse?

Quote
If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

Of course, I'm not asserting that she herself claimed herself to be without sin (such a prideful act I think would be the exact opposite behavior exhibited by the humble Theotokos). But what does that say about us, when we dare to claim that another human without sin? Doesn't this apply to us then?

I just see too many exceptions here, indeed as we accuse the RC's of treating Mary to be the great exception, I am seeing similar treatment directed towards her from our side as well.

I remember asking my priest about this teaching before I joined the catechumenate. He shrugged of my question and told me that if this is indeed so, then what are we to make of scripture which says that all have sinned? I had no reply.

Offline Aindriú

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #121 on: October 08, 2011, 06:48:16 PM »
Even when St. John Chrysostom criticized her for asking the Lord to make the wine at the wedding feast, that action is not necessarily a sin.  No one is perfect except for God.

Our Lady was certainly sinless!



does this change anything about us

Is that relevant?

I suppose I wonder what the relevance to the teaching is for us. If mary was sinless, what does that mean in the grand scheme of our salvation? I guess to me it seems somewhat like a stand-alone teaching (similar to the immaculate conception), where as all the other doctrines of the church ultimately point back to Christ and his saving work.

A woman who is capable of maintaining full communion with God for her whole life adds nothing to Christianity? I find that hard to believe, especially with the great love for many saints who struggled their whole lives to do the same.

The Theotokos had Full Communion with God as an infant?  She experienced Theosis as a child?

Were Adam and Eve in a state of full theosis?

From what I have read from the Father's commentary, no.

I haven't ever heard contrary, either.

Yet, until their fall, they were in communion with God ("walked with Him") without concupiscence, and yet still had the free will to choose otherwise.

Difficult to compare the two situations.  Adam and Eve were created fully grown as far as we know, while Mary was born an infant.  In what sense can a baby choose anything or commune with a person?

Because since the fall we have all been born with 'separation from God' (original sin) and inherited it's concupiscence (darkening of the mind and desire to sin).

I'm going to need this.

Offline Aindriú

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #122 on: October 08, 2011, 06:50:26 PM »
Further complications arise when we assert this teaching of sinlessness. What are we to make of this verse?

Quote
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

Did this verse not apply to the Theotokos as well? Was he not including her when he says "our sins"? Did Christ not die for her sins also?

And what of the practice of the early church, confessing sins to each other:

Quote
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.

Did the Theotokos not partake in these communal prayers for forgiveness? Did she not need the prayers of others because she was already fully "healed"?

What of the sacrament of penance/confession? While all the other apostles were practicing this sacrament, are we to say that she did not?


What about this verse?

Quote
If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

Of course, I'm not asserting that she herself claimed herself to be without sin (such a prideful act I think would be the exact opposite behavior exhibited by the humble Theotokos). But what does that say about us, when we dare to claim that another human without sin? Doesn't this apply to us then?

I just see too many exceptions here, indeed as we accuse the RC's of treating Mary to be the great exception, I am seeing similar treatment directed towards her from our side as well.

I remember asking my priest about this teaching before I joined the catechumenate. He shrugged of my question and told me that if this is indeed so, then what are we to make of scripture which says that all have sinned? I had no reply.

If she was born as an exception, would you prefer to have that written down?

"All of you confess your sins... unless you're the Theotokos. Are you here? Mary? Ah.. there you are. Don't worry about it. You're cool."
« Last Edit: October 08, 2011, 06:51:18 PM by Aindriú »

I'm going to need this.

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #123 on: October 08, 2011, 07:37:32 PM »
Further complications arise when we assert this teaching of sinlessness. What are we to make of this verse?

Quote
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

Did this verse not apply to the Theotokos as well? Was he not including her when he says "our sins"? Did Christ not die for her sins also?

And what of the practice of the early church, confessing sins to each other:

Quote
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.

Did the Theotokos not partake in these communal prayers for forgiveness? Did she not need the prayers of others because she was already fully "healed"?

What of the sacrament of penance/confession? While all the other apostles were practicing this sacrament, are we to say that she did not?


What about this verse?

Quote
If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

Of course, I'm not asserting that she herself claimed herself to be without sin (such a prideful act I think would be the exact opposite behavior exhibited by the humble Theotokos). But what does that say about us, when we dare to claim that another human without sin? Doesn't this apply to us then?

I just see too many exceptions here, indeed as we accuse the RC's of treating Mary to be the great exception, I am seeing similar treatment directed towards her from our side as well.

I remember asking my priest about this teaching before I joined the catechumenate. He shrugged of my question and told me that if this is indeed so, then what are we to make of scripture which says that all have sinned? I had no reply.

If she was born as an exception, would you prefer to have that written down?

"All of you confess your sins... unless you're the Theotokos. Are you here? Mary? Ah.. there you are. Don't worry about it. You're cool."

It does sound silly, I agree. And i'm sure she engaged in this practice with all the rest of the apostles.

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #124 on: October 08, 2011, 07:40:30 PM »
Even when St. John Chrysostom criticized her for asking the Lord to make the wine at the wedding feast, that action is not necessarily a sin.  No one is perfect except for God.

Our Lady was certainly sinless!

does this change anything about us

Is that relevant?

I suppose I wonder what the relevance to the teaching is for us. If mary was sinless, what does that mean in the grand scheme of our salvation? I guess to me it seems somewhat like a stand-alone teaching (similar to the immaculate conception), where as all the other doctrines of the church ultimately point back to Christ and his saving work.

A woman who is capable of maintaining full communion with God for her whole life adds nothing to Christianity? I find that hard to believe, especially with the great love for many saints who struggled their whole lives to do the same.

I was under the impression that full and total union with God was not possible in this life, only in the eschaton to come, after the raising and the final judgment?

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #125 on: October 08, 2011, 07:44:49 PM »
BTW, I have no problem believing that the Theotokos is in full and total union with God at this very moment, due to the raising and glorification of her earthly body.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2011, 07:45:09 PM by Ortho_cat »

Offline peteprint

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #126 on: October 08, 2011, 07:46:38 PM »
Even when St. John Chrysostom criticized her for asking the Lord to make the wine at the wedding feast, that action is not necessarily a sin.  No one is perfect except for God.

Our Lady was certainly sinless!

does this change anything about us

Is that relevant?

I suppose I wonder what the relevance to the teaching is for us. If mary was sinless, what does that mean in the grand scheme of our salvation? I guess to me it seems somewhat like a stand-alone teaching (similar to the immaculate conception), where as all the other doctrines of the church ultimately point back to Christ and his saving work.

A woman who is capable of maintaining full communion with God for her whole life adds nothing to Christianity? I find that hard to believe, especially with the great love for many saints who struggled their whole lives to do the same.

I was under the impression that full and total union with God was not possible in this life, only in the eschaton to come, after the raising and the final judgment?

My understanding as well.

Offline Pikhristos Aftonf

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #127 on: October 08, 2011, 08:28:15 PM »
from the annunciation onwards, she was full of grace because she carried God the Word incarnate in her womb for 9 months... and to be chosen from amongst all the women that existed and those that will ever exist, shows that before she bore Christ she was exemplary, outstanding and extraordinary in her obedience and faith. then she accepted the Lord Christ, knowing that she will be ridiculed, etc. now i don't understand, how can anyone dispute that after she carried Christ, she remained pure, innocent and without sin. anyways, if she was just as blemished as all humans, why didn't God allow her to be buried just like everyone else? its because her body was sanctified and purified and received grace from carrying god within her. however she still needed to be saved as she was still under the curse of the original sin

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #128 on: October 08, 2011, 08:38:16 PM »
from the annunciation onwards, she was full of grace because she carried God the Word incarnate in her womb for 9 months... and to be chosen from amongst all the women that existed and those that will ever exist, shows that before she bore Christ she was exemplary, outstanding and extraordinary in her obedience and faith. then she accepted the Lord Christ, knowing that she will be ridiculed, etc. now i don't understand, how can anyone dispute that after she carried Christ, she remained pure, innocent and without sin. anyways, if she was just as blemished as all humans, why didn't God allow her to be buried just like everyone else? its because her body was sanctified and purified and received grace from carrying god within her. however she still needed to be saved as she was still under the curse of the original sin


That is what I have been saying in all my postings, that Mary was purified at the Annunciation.  I agree with you and Ortho_cat.

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #129 on: October 08, 2011, 08:59:25 PM »
I agree that she was "purified" in a certain sense at the annunciation, but I don't think she achieved full theosis until after glorification.

Offline peteprint

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #130 on: October 08, 2011, 09:11:30 PM »
I agree that she was "purified" in a certain sense at the annunciation, but I don't think she achieved full theosis until after glorification.

Ditto.  The body needs to be glorified as well, which can only occur after death and the resurrection, except in the case of the Theotokos whose body was taken up to Heaven after her Dormition.

Offline Pikhristos Aftonf

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #131 on: October 08, 2011, 09:13:55 PM »
+1
full theosis could not have occurred following the annunciation as she was still not saved from the original sin

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #132 on: October 08, 2011, 09:24:03 PM »
+1
full theosis could not have occurred following the annunciation as she was still not saved from the original sin

I didn't know there was such a thing.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #133 on: October 08, 2011, 09:29:57 PM »
+1
full theosis could not have occurred following the annunciation as she was still not saved from the original sin

I didn't know there was such a thing.

even after the resurrection and glorification? How about "full communion"?
« Last Edit: October 08, 2011, 09:30:32 PM by Ortho_cat »

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Re: If mary is sinless...
« Reply #134 on: October 08, 2011, 09:30:14 PM »
I think (correct me if I am wrong) that he is referring to death (at least in part).  Even the holiest of our saints are still under bondage to sin in the sense that they suffer its effect, i.e. illness and death.  I have read that man is not just soul or body, but needs both to be complete.  Full glorification occurs after the resurrection and glorification of the body and its reunion with the soul.