Author Topic: If Mary is sinless...  (Read 29207 times)

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Offline W.A.Mozart

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Re: If Mary is sinless...
« Reply #315 on: February 27, 2014, 05:38:19 PM »


Herr Mozart, funny, I thought that you died shortly after the completion of "The Magic Flute," "Die Zauberflöte" in 1791. I love your music, but question your knowledge of Orthodox theology. In the Eastern Orthodox Church we express our theology through our worship. Although the words are Latin, we follow the principle, "Lex orandi, lex credendi," which means the law of prayer is the law of belief. The troparia, sticheria, and other liturgical texts are the very best source for understanding what we believe in the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Fr. John W. Morris

Oh I am still alive... I live inside people who like my music

Now, I dont want to talk about the dogmatic character of the hymns, sticheria etc. this is just an example

In the Octoechos attributed to Saint John of Damascus, we find a clear reference to the tollhouses. The eigth canticle from the canon at Matins reads,

"O Virgin, in the hour of death rescue me from the hands of the demons, and the judgment, and the accusations, and the frightful testing, and the bitter tollhouses and the fierce prince, and the eternal condemnation, O Theotokos."


Is this teaching about the tollhouses dogmatic in the orthodox church?  ;D
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Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: If Mary is sinless...
« Reply #316 on: February 27, 2014, 07:57:12 PM »


Herr Mozart, funny, I thought that you died shortly after the completion of "The Magic Flute," "Die Zauberflöte" in 1791. I love your music, but question your knowledge of Orthodox theology. In the Eastern Orthodox Church we express our theology through our worship. Although the words are Latin, we follow the principle, "Lex orandi, lex credendi," which means the law of prayer is the law of belief. The troparia, sticheria, and other liturgical texts are the very best source for understanding what we believe in the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Fr. John W. Morris

Oh I am still alive... I live inside people who like my music

Now, I dont want to talk about the dogmatic character of the hymns, sticheria etc. this is just an example

In the Octoechos attributed to Saint John of Damascus, we find a clear reference to the tollhouses. The eigth canticle from the canon at Matins reads,

"O Virgin, in the hour of death rescue me from the hands of the demons, and the judgment, and the accusations, and the frightful testing, and the bitter tollhouses and the fierce prince, and the eternal condemnation, O Theotokos."


Is this teaching about the tollhouses dogmatic in the orthodox church?  ;D

It all depends on what is meant by toll houses. As I am sure you know a fierce debate is going on in the Orthodox Church on this issue. If toll houses are  used the illusion of  as a metaphor for the particular judgment, it is acceptable for Orthodox. However there are some whose interpretation of toll houses is too close to the RC doctrine of purgatory.

Fr. John W. Morris

Offline W.A.Mozart

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Re: If Mary is sinless...
« Reply #317 on: February 28, 2014, 02:51:27 PM »
nice 1... actually, one can say this for almost everything in the orthodox church - btw I dont think there is a correlation between the toll houses and the doctrine of purgatory. Toll houses are more like the egyptian book of the dead

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_the_Dead#Judgement


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Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: If Mary is sinless...
« Reply #318 on: February 28, 2014, 09:00:58 PM »
nice 1... actually, one can say this for almost everything in the orthodox church - btw I dont think there is a correlation between the toll houses and the doctrine of purgatory. Toll houses are more like the egyptian book of the dead

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_the_Dead#Judgement




No Council, Ecumenical or otherwise has ever approved the doctrine of Toll Houses. At best it is a theologoumena, that is theological opinion that seems to come from some monastic traditions. One problem is that some people express this belief in terms that sound like the R.C. doctrine of purgatory. Others express it in ways that sound Gnostic. Others simply consider it a metaphor for the particular judgment. I personally think that we must always avoid trying to define too much in order to preserve a proper Eastern Orthodox sense of mystery when we consider things not officially proclaimed by the Church as dogma. I am also leery of some expressions of this belief because they seem to forget that whatever sins, we have committed, if we repent we are completely forgiven and do not have to earn forgiveness by works, because there is nothing that we can add to what Christ has done for us. The way that some people express the Toll House belief makes it sound like we have to earn forgiveness by works, which is completely contrary to Orthodox doctrine.

Fr. John W. Morris

Offline W.A.Mozart

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Re: If Mary is sinless...
« Reply #319 on: March 01, 2014, 09:17:21 AM »
thank you father Morris  ;D

I mentioned the aerial toll-houses because of the fact they are menntioned in the Octoechos, in a text attributed to Saint John of Damascus. My personal opinion is that aerial toll-houses have nothing to do with the teaching of Jesus Christ but the point is - does everything that is mentioned in the Octoechos have a dogmatic character? Ultimately, can one see the hymns, sticheria etc. as a source of orthodox dogmatic theology? If the answer is negative - what is the criterion that we should recognize as the proper one if we want to deal with the authentic orthodoxy in the Octoechos?

If everything in Octoechos has a dogmatic character - then aerial toll-houses do exist and we have ADVOCACY - thats what we are left with when you take away Gods love : )
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 09:30:24 AM by W.A.Mozart »
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