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Author Topic: Toward a true ecumenism  (Read 596 times) Average Rating: 0
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Peter J
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« on: June 09, 2011, 11:34:17 AM »

I just listened to Fr. Z's podcast, "Toward a true ecumenism".

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2011/02/podcazt-166-toward-a-true-ecumenism/

Don't worry too much about the length. It's long because he start by reading Pius XI’s 1928 encyclical called Mortalium animos. He you want to skip that and just hear Fr. Z's 8-minute commentary, go to the 37 minute mark.
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- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
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« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2011, 11:48:14 AM »

Interesting! I had a correspondence last week with an SSPX priest about a Catholic man received into Orthodoxy.  He referred to Mortalium Animos to show that he now must go to hell.  What is in the Encyclical which teaches that?  Is it authentic Petrine teaching?
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« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2011, 12:11:09 PM »

Well, after reading his blog, I suspect that particular priest and his adherents are unreconstructed advocates for the canonization of Archbishop Ireland and Bishop Basil Takach. I am guessing that he was not participating in this week's North American Orthodox Catholic Theological Consultation spring meeting at SVS. Boze moj. Then again, Pope Pius XI was not exactly beloved by the people I knew growing up. He was on the middle of the old dartboard at more than a few "American Russian Clubs' across the coal and steel belt of his era!
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Peter J
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« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2011, 12:19:40 PM »

What is in the Encyclical which teaches that?

That might be a good question to post on Fr. Z's blog. I imagine he might say that's a misunderstanding of the encyclical.
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« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2011, 12:32:21 PM »

What is in the Encyclical which teaches that?

That might be a good question to post on Fr. Z's blog. I imagine he might say that's a misunderstanding of the encyclical.

Paragraph 11 seems to support the SSPX priest...

"This is the fount of truth, this the house of Faith, this the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. Let none delude himself with obstinate wrangling. For life and salvation are here concerned, which will be lost and entirely destroyed, unless their interests are carefully and assiduously kept in mind."

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19280106_mortalium-animos_en.html

Does Fr Z speak of this in his podcast?

It seems to reiterate what Peter taught through Pope Clement VI,  "No man of the wayfarers outside of the faith of this Church, and outside the obedience of the Pope of Rome, can finally be saved."  

« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 12:35:56 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Peter J
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« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2011, 02:23:28 PM »

Does Fr Z speak of this in his podcast?

I'm pretty sure he didn't bring that up. Mostly he talks about ecumenism. (Bear in mind, aside from reading the encyclical his talk is just about 8 minutes.)
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« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2011, 05:42:36 PM »

What is in the Encyclical which teaches that?

That might be a good question to post on Fr. Z's blog. I imagine he might say that's a misunderstanding of the encyclical.

Paragraph 11 seems to support the SSPX priest...

"This is the fount of truth, this the house of Faith, this the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. Let none delude himself with obstinate wrangling. For life and salvation are here concerned, which will be lost and entirely destroyed, unless their interests are carefully and assiduously kept in mind."

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19280106_mortalium-animos_en.html

Does Fr Z speak of this in his podcast?

It seems to reiterate what Peter taught through Pope Clement VI,  "No man of the wayfarers outside of the faith of this Church, and outside the obedience of the Pope of Rome, can finally be saved."   

The origins of that quote are interesting.  Those are not the words of Pius the Eleventh.  And it points back to a time when there was a great deal of fluidity in terms of who was really "in" and who was really "out"... How you got "out" and how you got back "in"...


« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 05:45:46 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

Peter J
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« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2011, 09:40:23 AM »

I have to admit, my feelings toward "Toward a true ecumenism" are less positive now than they were when I started this thread. For two reasons: 1. noting and reflecting on the fact that Fr. Z completely ignores the question of salvation for non-Catholics, and 2. reading some of the comments posted at the bottom of the page. (Of course, (2) could be subdivided into a few different issues, but I won't.)
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« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2011, 09:58:13 AM »

I have to admit, my feelings toward "Toward a true ecumenism" are less positive now than they were when I started this thread. For two reasons: 1. noting and reflecting on the fact that Fr. Z completely ignores the question of salvation for non-Catholics, and 2. reading some of the comments posted at the bottom of the page. (Of course, (2) could be subdivided into a few different issues, but I won't.)

The comments actually put me off from treating the post with any seriousness, particularly how they referred to the Greek Catholic troubles of the 1920's in the kind of 'Roman imperialism' mindset that boiled the blood of many in those days.
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Peter J
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« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2011, 10:42:23 AM »

I have to admit, my feelings toward "Toward a true ecumenism" are less positive now than they were when I started this thread. For two reasons: 1. noting and reflecting on the fact that Fr. Z completely ignores the question of salvation for non-Catholics, and 2. reading some of the comments posted at the bottom of the page. (Of course, (2) could be subdivided into a few different issues, but I won't.)

The comments actually put me off from treating the post with any seriousness, particularly how they referred to the Greek Catholic troubles of the 1920's in the kind of 'Roman imperialism' mindset that boiled the blood of many in those days.

I noticed that too.
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Peter J
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« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2011, 09:12:00 AM »

I have to admit, my feelings toward "Toward a true ecumenism" are less positive now than they were when I started this thread. For two reasons: 1. noting and reflecting on the fact that Fr. Z completely ignores the question of salvation for non-Catholics, and 2. reading some of the comments posted at the bottom of the page. (Of course, (2) could be subdivided into a few different issues, but I won't.)

This morning, after finishing reading the comments, I re-listened to the podcast (well, not the whole things, just the 8 minutes that aren't him reading the encyclical). I have to say that I would like what he says unreservedly if I didn't know anything about the encyclical he was discussing -- or more specifically, if I had never considered what the encyclical might imply about the salvation (or lack thereof) of non-Catholics, or wondered why Fr Z completely ignores that in his remarks.

It makes me wonder: out of Catholics who (like myself) come from a neo-conservative background and later break away from it, how many lock onto a hard-core traditionalist position without considering that it may have problems of it's own? (Not necessarily expecting an answer to that question, just wondering aloud.)
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« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2011, 09:22:31 AM »

I have to admit, my feelings toward "Toward a true ecumenism" are less positive now than they were when I started this thread. For two reasons: 1. noting and reflecting on the fact that Fr. Z completely ignores the question of salvation for non-Catholics, and 2. reading some of the comments posted at the bottom of the page. (Of course, (2) could be subdivided into a few different issues, but I won't.)

This morning, after finishing reading the comments, I re-listened to the podcast (well, not the whole things, just the 8 minutes that aren't him reading the encyclical). I have to say that I would like what he says unreservedly if I didn't know anything about the encyclical he was discussing -- or more specifically, if I had never considered what the encyclical might imply about the salvation (or lack thereof) of non-Catholics, or wondered why Fr Z completely ignores that in his remarks.

It makes me wonder: out of Catholics who (like myself) come from a neo-conservative background and later break away from it, how many lock onto a hard-core traditionalist position without considering that it may have problems of it's own? (Not necessarily expecting an answer to that question, just wondering aloud.)

I did not listen to the podcast but I did read the encyclical and I see little wrong with it as it stands.  There are no explanations made but exhortations are hardly meant to make people feel comfortable.  There are some presumptions made that have explanations, simply not there.

The very fact that he quotes from an extremely polemical patristic heresy hunter, who himself dies a  heterodox member of the Church, should indicate that it is more of a rhetorical device than a condemnation of any one, several or many specific persons.

If we ripped Orthodox documents out of context and condemned on that basis, the whining and tearing of cloth would be heard for miles.
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