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Question: When will dual-communion between the Melkite Catholic Church and the Antiochian Orthodox Church, be possible?  (Voting closed: June 20, 2011, 08:55:23 AM)
Within the next 10 to 20 years - 5 (10%)
Pshh! Not within my lifetime! - 7 (14%)
When the Pope becomes Orthodox - 21 (42%)
When the East stops being schismatic - 1 (2%)
NEVER - 8 (16%)
Other - 8 (16%)
Total Voters: 50

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Author Topic: Is "dual communion" on the horizon?  (Read 8162 times) Average Rating: 0
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #135 on: June 17, 2011, 09:59:18 PM »

IF that were true there would be no serious discussion concerning the resumption of communion so the best I can say is that you are entitled to your opinion.

If you have read of any "serious discussion concerning the resumption of communion" many of us here would appreciate seeing the documents.  The bilateral dialogue concerns itself with major disputed theological issues.  I have not seen discussions on the resumption of communion.

Apart from the unexpected major upset in the 1980s when Orthodox delegates at the International Dialogue found themselves unable to state that Catholics are baptized..... what serious discussion has been devoted to this matter?  This knotty question is something both sides seem unwilling to face openly.  How can we achieve resumption of communion if there is no acceptance of Catholic baptism?

Feel better now?... Smiley
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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #136 on: June 17, 2011, 10:07:49 PM »

How can we achieve resumption of communion if there is no acceptance of Catholic baptism?
Could Catholic baptism be accepted by means of a prayer together with a lenient application of economia?

Yes, it often is, at the point of individual reception.

And this is what would happen if union occurs, except it will happen on a massive scale.

We will happily accept all of you by economy...that is quite true but I don't think I'd consider Orthodox numbers as "massive"... Cheesy

Admittedly we don't pad our stats out with millions of South Americans.   laugh
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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #137 on: June 17, 2011, 10:08:32 PM »

IF that were true there would be no serious discussion concerning the resumption of communion so the best I can say is that you are entitled to your opinion.

If you have read of any "serious discussion concerning the resumption of communion" many of us here would appreciate seeing the documents.  The bilateral dialogue concerns itself with major disputed theological issues.  I have not seen discussions on the resumption of communion.

Apart from the unexpected major upset in the 1980s when Orthodox delegates at the International Dialogue found themselves unable to state that Catholics are baptized..... what serious discussion has been devoted to this matter?  This knotty question is something both sides seem unwilling to face openly.  How can we achieve resumption of communion if there is no acceptance of Catholic baptism?

Feel better now?... Smiley

Wasn't feeling poorly, but thanks.
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podkarpatska
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« Reply #138 on: June 18, 2011, 11:11:26 AM »

If you have read of any "serious discussion concerning the resumption of communion" many of us here would appreciate seeing the documents. 

Do discussions on internet fora count?

There are many sources regarding theological discussions and the real difficulties in acheiving 'communal' unity. In English,  one of the many published documents of the North American Theological Consultation, the Orthodox chair for the past thirty five year's has been Metropolitan Maximos of the Metropolis of Pittsburgh, PA is entitled "Sharing the Ministry of Reconciliation Statement on the Orthodox-Catholic Dialogue and the Ecumenical Movement Brookline, Massachusetts June 1, 2000" http://www.scoba.us/resources/orthodox-catholic/31.html Therein, the very serious issues which prevent 'dual communion' are laid out and are discussed at length in some of the other statements released over the decades.

Just one of the reflections from this paper:

"....we cannot overlook the difficult issues which continue to divide us and prevent the restoration of full communion between the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church. The disputed points dividing our churches are serious and demand our continuing attention. Among these, we feel especially that issues related to conciliarity, primacy and the exercise of authority require much deeper theological reflection both within our churches and in our bilateral dialogues. Pope John Paul II himself has recognized the difficulties which the papacy presents to many, and has repeatedly invited theological reflection from all Christian traditions on this critical topic (eg., Ut Unum Sint #95-96)."

And from a more detailed document of 2010 entitled: "Steps Towards A Reunited Church: A Sketch Of An Orthodox-Catholic Vision For The Future" comes this sobering assessment:

"2. A Central Point of Disagreement.  In the course of our discussions, it has become increasingly clear to us that the most divisive element in our traditions has been a growing diversity, since the late patristic centuries, in the ways we understand the structure of the Church itself, particularly our understanding of the forms of headship that seem essential to the Church’s being at the local, regional and worldwide levels. At the heart of our differences stands the way each of our traditions understands the proper exercise of primacy in the leadership of the Church, both within the various regions of the Christian world and within Christianity as a whole.  In order to be the Body of Christ in its fullness -- to be both “Orthodox” and “Catholic” -- does a local community, gathered to celebrate the Eucharist, have to be united with the other Churches that share the Apostolic faith, not only through Scripture, doctrine, and tradition, but also through common worldwide structures of authority -- particularly through the practice of a universal synodality in union with the bishop of Rome?

It seems to be no exaggeration, in fact, to say that the root obstacle preventing the Orthodox and Catholic Churches from growing steadily towards sacramental and practical unity has been, and continues to be, the role that the bishop of Rome plays in the worldwide Catholic communion.....

.....Conscience holds us back from celebrating our unity as complete in sacramental terms, until it is complete in faith, Church structure, and common action; but conscience also calls us to move beyond complacency in our divisions, in the power of the Spirit and in a longing for the fullness of Christ’s life-giving presence in our midst."
http://www.scoba.us/articles/towards-a-unified-church.html

Mind you that these words expressing the very real difficulties in ever achieving unity come from the most 'progressive' wing of Orthodox thinkers in the west. One those with the most rose colored of glasses underestimate the real complexity and many hurdles that lie ahead in such talks - if reunion is indeed to be the will of the Almighty. I believe that it is, but I recognize that it likely would not occur in my lifetime. This doesn't mean we shouldn't keep talking and trying better understand each other.
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Peter J
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« Reply #139 on: June 18, 2011, 07:06:29 PM »

Indeed, I don't expect that the next few decades will see any "mega-unions", i.e. a union of hundreds-of-millions of Orthodox Christians with the Catholic Church.

If anything, I'd say we live in an era of "micro-unions", or more specifically, one parish (usually Anglican or Lutheran) at a time coming into communion with the Catholic Church (or the Orthodox Church). There was, of course, the union of Mar Bawai Soro and 3000 others with the Catholic Church a few years ago -- but that's still tiny compared with, say, the Union of Brest.
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