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Question: When will our two Churches reunite (if you select "other," please explain in a post)?
Within the next 10 to 20 years
Pshh! Not within my lifetime!
When the Pope becomes Orthodox
When the East stops being schismatic
NEVER
Other

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Author Topic: Is Orthodox-Catholic reunion on the horizon?  (Read 7349 times) Average Rating: 0
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Peter J
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« Reply #45 on: June 10, 2011, 06:24:00 PM »

Hi Michał. I'm not really clear on what you're saying here. Are you disagree with my statement that the Orthodox Church has situations of overlapping jurisdictions?

There are overlapping jurisdictions within the Church but there are not between the EOC and the RCC.

What I'm saying is that the Orthodox Church has situations of overlapping jurisdictions, just like the Catholic Church does.
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« Reply #46 on: June 10, 2011, 09:40:41 PM »

Personally, I think what needs to happen is a synod between the Pope and all the EO patriarchs, ...
Maybe lock the Pope together with the EO Patriarchs and theological advisers from both sides in a building in Greece, until agreement is reached.
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« Reply #47 on: June 10, 2011, 10:24:48 PM »

Personally, I think what needs to happen is a synod between the Pope and all the EO patriarchs, ...
Maybe lock the Pope together with the EO Patriarchs and theological advisers from both sides in a building in Greece, until agreement is reached.

And then when the waiting gets too long rip the roof off like at the end of the conclave of 1268-1271.
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« Reply #48 on: June 10, 2011, 10:35:21 PM »

It would take more than just meeting with the Patriarchs/Primates he would save time and effort by meeting with all the Bishops. Even if the Patriarchs agreed they would need to get their brother Bishops to agree. which seems unlikely if they weren't involved in the discussions or had concerns that weren't addressed by such a meeting. If they can't form consensus within their respective Synods it is just another failed attempt.
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« Reply #49 on: June 10, 2011, 10:36:28 PM »

Even if the Bishops of the EO Church and the Bishops of the RC Church met together and reached an agreement, it still doesn't have any authority unless the whole Orthodox Church accepts it. That means the laity, the clergy and the monastics.
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« Reply #50 on: June 10, 2011, 10:44:45 PM »

You are absolutely correct about it needing to be accepted by the whole church. My only point was that Patriarchs are not little popes and don't always get what they want. I think some orthodox and a lot of nonorthodox don't understand that.
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« Reply #51 on: June 10, 2011, 10:51:59 PM »

You are absolutely correct about it needing to be accepted by the whole church. My only point was that Patriarchs are not little popes and don't always get what they want. I think some orthodox and a lot of nonorthodox don't understand that.
Oh lol, I was responding to the posts just before yours from the roman catholic members.
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« Reply #52 on: June 10, 2011, 10:55:29 PM »

You are absolutely correct about it needing to be accepted by the whole church. My only point was that Patriarchs are not little popes and don't always get what they want. I think some orthodox and a lot of nonorthodox don't understand that.
Oh lol, I was responding to the posts just before yours from the roman catholic members.
thanks.
Suppose then, that all of the Orthodox Patriarchs and all of the Orthodox bishops and their participating theologians,  reached an agreement with the Roman Pope. Would it be likely to be rejected by the rest of the Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #53 on: June 10, 2011, 11:28:30 PM »

Personally, I think what needs to happen is a synod between the Pope and all the EO patriarchs, and the college of cardinals perhaps, and a long time spent in prayer and dialogue to reestablish unity and the role of the bishops. This might be a bit too ecumenical for some people but what is necessary to do must be done.

It would take more than just meeting with the Patriarchs/Primates he would save time and effort by meeting with all the Bishops. Even if the Patriarchs agreed they would need to get their brother Bishops to agree. which seems unlikely if they weren't involved in the discussions or had concerns that weren't addressed by such a meeting. If they can't form consensus within their respective Synods it is just another failed attempt.

But you agree, at least, that the Patriarchs/Primates would see the light, as it were, if they had such a meeting with the Pope?
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« Reply #54 on: June 10, 2011, 11:32:40 PM »

I thought the Pope would be the one seeing the Light and subsequently spending years in an Orthodox Monastery practicing hesychia  perhaps the Uncreated Light.
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« Reply #55 on: June 10, 2011, 11:42:36 PM »

You are absolutely correct about it needing to be accepted by the whole church. My only point was that Patriarchs are not little popes and don't always get what they want. I think some orthodox and a lot of nonorthodox don't understand that.
Oh lol, I was responding to the posts just before yours from the roman catholic members.
thanks.
Suppose then, that all of the Orthodox Patriarchs and all of the Orthodox bishops and their participating theologians,  reached an agreement with the Roman Pope. Would it be likely to be rejected by the rest of the Orthodox Church?

It pretty much happened at Florence.

It depends on what the agreement is. If we believe it's a departure from the faith, then yes. To be Orthodox means you have to have the exact same faith we have, no compromise.

So any council basically would reinforce the Orthodox position, and would have to result in the Pope (and the Roman Catholic Church) returning to it's pre-schism status as defined by the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #56 on: June 11, 2011, 03:20:25 AM »

You are absolutely correct about it needing to be accepted by the whole church. My only point was that Patriarchs are not little popes and don't always get what they want. I think some orthodox and a lot of nonorthodox don't understand that.
Oh lol, I was responding to the posts just before yours from the roman catholic members.
thanks.
Suppose then, that all of the Orthodox Patriarchs and all of the Orthodox bishops and their participating theologians,  reached an agreement with the Roman Pope. Would it be likely to be rejected by the rest of the Orthodox Church?

It pretty much happened at Florence.

It depends on what the agreement is. If we believe it's a departure from the faith, then yes. To be Orthodox means you have to have the exact same faith we have, no compromise.

So any council basically would reinforce the Orthodox position, and would have to result in the Pope (and the Roman Catholic Church) returning to it's pre-schism status as defined by the Orthodox Church.
Suppose that all of  the Orthodox Patriarchs, all of  the Orthodox bishops and the participating Orthodox theologians said that the agreement with the Pope of Rome  was not a departure from the faith, then would it be possible for it to be rejected by the rest of the Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #57 on: June 11, 2011, 04:18:09 AM »

Neither the Pope or a pan-Orthodox Synod today would compromise any to the doctrine (i.e. for Roman Catholics, innovations since the Great Schism, the Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God, Papal Infallibility), traditions or practices of the churches today.

However, there probably would be support among a minority of ecumenist bishops in Eastern Orthodoxy, and among a sizeable number of Roman Catholic bishops, including the Pope, that could accommodate a "reunion" by accepting the Eastern Orthodox Church as an autonomous rite, much like its so called Byzantine Rites of today, wherein, the Pope would not exercise the full authority of his office as Roman Catholicism views it today, but he would only act as a "First Among Equals" among the heads (primates/first hierarchs) of today's Orthodox Churches.  In this situation, the doctrinal differences would by soft pedaled as insignificant linguistic matters.  But this scenario will not happen, because there is far too much opposition to it among a vast majority of hierarchy, clergy, monastics, and laity in each of the Holy Orthodox Churches, and a schism would be caused among the Orthodox by such a "union."  I believe the Orthodox Churches current division over the calendar is still substantially due to the fact that it was introduced by a Roman Catholic Pope, (Gregory).


I'm 58 years old and voted "Not within my lifetime," as circumstances in the world would have to change significantly, like a greater influence of the Moslem religion and overt Christian suppression by it, to affect the current positions of both churches.

Never-the-less, I would advocate for a council of Christian Churches, Churches that adhere to the belief in the Holy Trinity, to advocate, promote, to today's world the essential traditional message of the Christian Gospel, without acting as if it is a religion unto itself.
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« Reply #58 on: June 11, 2011, 07:28:57 AM »

I thought the Pope would be the one seeing the Light and subsequently spending years in an Orthodox Monastery practicing hesychia  perhaps the Uncreated Light.

As you've probably already guessed, my last question was tongue-in-cheek. Actually I think the idea the problems will be solved if the leaders meet together is bizarre. (Almost as bizarre as the reunion in the novel “Pierced by a Sword”. See this post.)
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« Reply #59 on: June 11, 2011, 08:59:24 AM »

There's already a discussion about Fr. Z's podcast, "Toward a true ecumenism", but there's one thing I noticed in it that pertains to this thread: he says something to the effect that he doesn't think reunion will happen until the end of time.

Correction: he didn't say reunion won't happen until the end of time. He said he thinks it is "so difficult to solve, that only God can solve it".
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« Reply #60 on: June 11, 2011, 10:11:12 AM »

Just a point about trying to force Florence comparisons with any modern attempts to resolve our differences. Their world and ours are not really analogous. The military and economic pressures on the Eastern Empire placed the Orthodox delegation there in a great position of weakness. Secondly, there were no sources of mass information as exist today. The masses were ignorant and relied on what their Bishops, holy men and Princes dispensed to them in terms of information.

Today, if real progress were to be made, it would have been vetted in the courts of public opinion for decades, if not centuries. Why do you thing that the international consultations have been meeting and publishing their papers for comment and revision for more than fifty years. No modern Pope or Patriarch in his right mind would or could force a union on the faithful. I can't foresee any union being advanced that the vast majority of hierarchs of both east and west did not believe was the desire of God or that would not meet with the general, but not unanimous, support of the majorities of their communions.

We are not there in any way, none of us living may see that day if it comes at all.  We lose too much sleep and angst speculating about hypotheticals while the world around us is going to hell in a hand-basket as they say.
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« Reply #61 on: June 11, 2011, 12:44:52 PM »

Does anyone happen to know if monks from Mt. Athos, Valaam (sp?), and any other major center of monasticism that I don't know about or am forgetting, are involved in the talks with the Vatican?  It would seem to me that it would make sense for them to.  If the bishops of the Church (even if all of the bishops of the Church) agreed to unite with Rome, but the monks of major monastic centers opposed it, I should think a lot of other monks would - and so many Orthodox would then be influenced to not accept the agreement. 
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« Reply #62 on: June 11, 2011, 08:20:11 PM »

I've read most of the reports of the various consultations; never did I see a monk's name associated with an Orthodox delegation, aside from bishops who are technically monastics, but no monks who live the angelic life in a monastery.
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« Reply #63 on: June 11, 2011, 08:53:37 PM »

Neither the Pope or a pan-Orthodox Synod today would compromise any to the doctrine (i.e. for Roman Catholics, innovations since the Great Schism, the Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God, Papal Infallibility), traditions or practices of the churches today
Why do you think it would be impossible for the Roman Church to compromise on papal infallibility and the Immaculate Conception. Although they might not use the word compromise, but in the end, operationally, the teaching could be clarified and brought more in line with the Orthodox teaching of first among equals. This is not unprecedented, since, as you know, the Roman Catholic Church has clarified the teaching on the filioque, so that it gives more weight to the Orthodox position.
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« Reply #64 on: June 11, 2011, 09:25:30 PM »

I've read most of the reports of the various consultations; never did I see a monk's name associated with an Orthodox delegation, aside from bishops who are technically monastics, but no monks who live the angelic life in a monastery.

That's a shame.  If anything of any real consequence is to ever get done, it will require the backing of monks.
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« Reply #65 on: June 11, 2011, 09:56:41 PM »

Just a point about trying to force Florence comparisons with any modern attempts to resolve our differences. Their world and ours are not really analogous. The military and economic pressures on the Eastern Empire placed the Orthodox delegation there in a great position of weakness. Secondly, there were no sources of mass information as exist today. The masses were ignorant and relied on what their Bishops, holy men and Princes dispensed to them in terms of information.

Today, if real progress were to be made, it would have been vetted in the courts of public opinion for decades, if not centuries. Why do you thing that the international consultations have been meeting and publishing their papers for comment and revision for more than fifty years. No modern Pope or Patriarch in his right mind would or could force a union on the faithful. I can't foresee any union being advanced that the vast majority of hierarchs of both east and west did not believe was the desire of God or that would not meet with the general, but not unanimous, support of the majorities of their communions.

We are not there in any way, none of us living may see that day if it comes at all.  We lose too much sleep and angst speculating about hypotheticals while the world around us is going to hell in a hand-basket as they say.

We might not be going so fast if we'd come to terms on the resumption of communion.

To say that we will not see it in our life time, guarantees that we will not see it in our life time.

I believe it is entirely possible for me to see it in my life time.
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« Reply #66 on: June 11, 2011, 10:31:20 PM »

As I reread the scenarios that many seem to lay out for a reconciliation of east and west, I wonder if the meaning of the parable of the prodigal is lost upon us all.

Are we like the fallen away son who asks himself, "How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough to spare, and I'm dying with hunger! I will get up and go to my father, and will tell him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight. I am no more worthy to be called your son. Make me as one of your hired servants.' He arose, and came to his father. But while he was still far off, his father saw him, and was moved with compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.– Luke 15:17-20."

Are we the angry,prideful brother who resents his father for welcoming his brother after he squandered his inheritance: But he answered his father, "Behold, these many years I have served you, and I never disobeyed a commandment of yours, but you never gave me a goat, that I might celebrate with my friends. But when this, your son, came, who has devoured your living with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him."– Luke 15:29-3"

I believe that should pay heed to the words of our Lord in summing up the situation, "But it was appropriate to celebrate and be glad, for this, your brother, was dead, and is alive again. He was lost, and is found." – Luke 15:32"

Rather than speculate that one side has to do this or that etc... perhaps the answer can be found through prayerful contemplation and acceptance of God's will should He will us to become one as once we were?

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« Reply #67 on: June 11, 2011, 10:44:25 PM »

As I reread the scenarios that many seem to lay out for a reconciliation of east and west, I wonder if the meaning of the parable of the prodigal is lost upon us all.

Are we like the fallen away son who asks himself, "How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough to spare, and I'm dying with hunger! I will get up and go to my father, and will tell him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight. I am no more worthy to be called your son. Make me as one of your hired servants.' He arose, and came to his father. But while he was still far off, his father saw him, and was moved with compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.– Luke 15:17-20."

Are we the angry,prideful brother who resents his father for welcoming his brother after he squandered his inheritance: But he answered his father, "Behold, these many years I have served you, and I never disobeyed a commandment of yours, but you never gave me a goat, that I might celebrate with my friends. But when this, your son, came, who has devoured your living with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him."– Luke 15:29-3"

I believe that should pay heed to the words of our Lord in summing up the situation, "But it was appropriate to celebrate and be glad, for this, your brother, was dead, and is alive again. He was lost, and is found." – Luke 15:32"

Rather than speculate that one side has to do this or that etc... perhaps the answer can be found through prayerful contemplation and acceptance of God's will should He will us to become one as once we were?



I would say that to reject reunion isn't equivalent to the story of the prodigal son. To us as Orthodox, the prodigal son actually has to return to the household before we can accept him in. When it comes to the Roman Catholic Church, that means that she has to return to and accept her pre-schism status as we define it. If it ever comes to that point, then it is our job to run out to meet her and welcome her home with open arms. But we don't seek after a premature reunion when she is still living the prodigal lifestyle.
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« Reply #68 on: June 11, 2011, 10:59:18 PM »

To us as Orthodox, the prodigal son actually has to return to the household before we can accept him in.

You'll be glad to hear that we Catholics also believe that the prodigal son has to return to the household before we can accept him in.

Wink
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« Reply #69 on: June 12, 2011, 12:22:22 PM »

To us as Orthodox, the prodigal son actually has to return to the household before we can accept him in.

You'll be glad to hear that we Catholics also believe that the prodigal son has to return to the household before we can accept him in.

Wink

If you think about it, we're already moving out to meet him.

M.
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« Reply #70 on: June 12, 2011, 12:49:09 PM »

To us as Orthodox, the prodigal son actually has to return to the household before we can accept him in.

You'll be glad to hear that we Catholics also believe that the prodigal son has to return to the household before we can accept him in.

Wink

If you think about it, we're already moving out to meet him.

M.

Good point. I hadn't thought of it in that way.

The father in the story could go out of the house the meet the son; but I (as a Catholic) can't go out of the household (the Church), except by moving out of it. That seems to be where a lot of ecumenists run amok.
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« Reply #71 on: June 12, 2011, 01:00:29 PM »

To us as Orthodox, the prodigal son actually has to return to the household before we can accept him in.

You'll be glad to hear that we Catholics also believe that the prodigal son has to return to the household before we can accept him in.

Wink

If you think about it, we're already moving out to meet him.

M.

Good point. I hadn't thought of it in that way.

The father in the story could go out of the house the meet the son; but I (as a Catholic) can't go out of the household (the Church), except by moving out of it. That seems to be where a lot of ecumenists run amok.

Just as an aside, I am happy that we no longer lock horns and am grateful to Schultz for promoting a better way for both of us.  Thanks for your own kindnesses as well.

M.
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« Reply #72 on: June 12, 2011, 03:30:08 PM »

To us as Orthodox, the prodigal son actually has to return to the household before we can accept him in.

You'll be glad to hear that we Catholics also believe that the prodigal son has to return to the household before we can accept him in.

Wink

If you think about it, we're already moving out to meet him.

M.

And you see, that is where we would argue that there cannot be any communion. We will not run out to meet the prodigal son until the prodigal son repents and decides to come back. That hasn't happened yet. And I guarantee you, the Orthodox will not be running to the Roman Catholics anytime soon. We have nothing to repent for as far as the schism is concerned.
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« Reply #73 on: June 12, 2011, 03:54:52 PM »

To us as Orthodox, the prodigal son actually has to return to the household before we can accept him in.

You'll be glad to hear that we Catholics also believe that the prodigal son has to return to the household before we can accept him in.

Wink

If you think about it, we're already moving out to meet him.

M.

Good point. I hadn't thought of it in that way.

The father in the story could go out of the house the meet the son; but I (as a Catholic) can't go out of the household (the Church), except by moving out of it. That seems to be where a lot of ecumenists run amok.

Just as an aside, I am happy that we no longer lock horns and am grateful to Schultz for promoting a better way for both of us.  Thanks for your own kindnesses as well.

M.

Indeed, he seems to have more wisdom than I gave him credit for.
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« Reply #74 on: June 12, 2011, 04:14:27 PM »

To the OP: Yes, it's on the horizon*.

*The horizon is the apparent line that separates earth from sky and goes away when we are approaching it.
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« Reply #75 on: June 12, 2011, 05:03:03 PM »

We might not be going so fast if we'd come to terms on the resumption of communion.

To say that we will not see it in our life time, guarantees that we will not see it in our life time.

I believe it is entirely possible for me to see it in my life time.


The Orthodox position is that communion will be the crowning point of union, not the starting point nor a stage along the way.  

They say it will proceed in the stages that we see in the Liturgy...

"Let us love one another....."   love will be the first stage

".... that we may confess..."  Identity of confession of faith will be stage two

and that will lead very quickly to stage three.... communion.

For any Orthodox who want to brush up on the Orthodox understanding of ecclesiology and communion, there is Bishop Kallistos Ware's Communion and Intercommunion which gives the viewpoint of the Patriarchate of Constantinople ( and I would be sure, of all the Orthodox Churches.)   In a brief booklet he explains why intercommunion is an impossibility for the Orthodox and we shall share communion on that glorious day when unity is complete.
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« Reply #76 on: June 12, 2011, 08:35:57 PM »

As I reread the scenarios that many seem to lay out for a reconciliation of east and west, I wonder if the meaning of the parable of the prodigal is lost upon us all.

Are we like the fallen away son who asks himself, "How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough to spare, and I'm dying with hunger! I will get up and go to my father, and will tell him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight. I am no more worthy to be called your son. Make me as one of your hired servants.' He arose, and came to his father. But while he was still far off, his father saw him, and was moved with compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.– Luke 15:17-20."

Are we the angry,prideful brother who resents his father for welcoming his brother after he squandered his inheritance: But he answered his father, "Behold, these many years I have served you, and I never disobeyed a commandment of yours, but you never gave me a goat, that I might celebrate with my friends. But when this, your son, came, who has devoured your living with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him."– Luke 15:29-3"

I believe that should pay heed to the words of our Lord in summing up the situation, "But it was appropriate to celebrate and be glad, for this, your brother, was dead, and is alive again. He was lost, and is found." – Luke 15:32"

Rather than speculate that one side has to do this or that etc... perhaps the answer can be found through prayerful contemplation and acceptance of God's will should He will us to become one as once we were?



I would say that to reject reunion isn't equivalent to the story of the prodigal son. To us as Orthodox, the prodigal son actually has to return to the household before we can accept him in. When it comes to the Roman Catholic Church, that means that she has to return to and accept her pre-schism status as we define it. If it ever comes to that point, then it is our job to run out to meet her and welcome her home with open arms. But we don't seek after a premature reunion when she is still living the prodigal lifestyle.

That wasn't my point. In the parable, the father accepts the prodigal upon the prodigal's decision to return to his father's home. Indeed, the father made no demands upon the son, but it was the son's desire to return to his father with humility and regret that inspired the father to offer the fatted calf and offer the prodigal a seat at his table.

My concern is that we Orthodox, should the time ever come when God's will demands reunion, will react like the faithful son who having honored the father and kept his commandments, reacted with bitterness and hurt upon the father's joyous acceptance of the return of the prodigal.

I am not offering any judgment, but merely food for thought.
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« Reply #77 on: June 12, 2011, 08:39:39 PM »

We might not be going so fast if we'd come to terms on the resumption of communion.

To say that we will not see it in our life time, guarantees that we will not see it in our life time.

I believe it is entirely possible for me to see it in my life time.


The Orthodox position is that communion will be the crowning point of union, not the starting point nor a stage along the way.  

They say it will proceed in the stages that we see in the Liturgy...

"Let us love one another....."   love will be the first stage

".... that we may confess..."  Identity of confession of faith will be stage two

and that will lead very quickly to stage three.... communion.

For any Orthodox who want to brush up on the Orthodox understanding of ecclesiology and communion, there is Bishop Kallistos Ware's Communion and Intercommunion which gives the viewpoint of the Patriarchate of Constantinople ( and I would be sure, of all the Orthodox Churches.)   In a brief booklet he explains why intercommunion is an impossibility for the Orthodox and we shall share communion on that glorious day when unity is complete.

Thank you Father, for that sums up the long standing position of the Orthodox members of the North American Theological Consultation under the spiritual guidance of Metropolitan Maximos these many years. As he is not in the best of health, please remember His Eminence in your prayers. A more humble, gracious, intelligent and pious servant of God, one would be hard pressed to find in any church.
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« Reply #78 on: June 12, 2011, 08:58:17 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
To the OP: Yes, it's on the horizon*.

*The horizon is the apparent line that separates earth from sky and goes away when we are approaching it.
LOL. Perfect.
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« Reply #79 on: June 12, 2011, 09:01:08 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
We might not be going so fast if we'd come to terms on the resumption of communion.

To say that we will not see it in our life time, guarantees that we will not see it in our life time.

I believe it is entirely possible for me to see it in my life time.


The Orthodox position is that communion will be the crowning point of union, not the starting point nor a stage along the way.  

They say it will proceed in the stages that we see in the Liturgy...

"Let us love one another....."   love will be the first stage

".... that we may confess..."  Identity of confession of faith will be stage two

and that will lead very quickly to stage three.... communion.

For any Orthodox who want to brush up on the Orthodox understanding of ecclesiology and communion, there is Bishop Kallistos Ware's Communion and Intercommunion which gives the viewpoint of the Patriarchate of Constantinople ( and I would be sure, of all the Orthodox Churches.)   In a brief booklet he explains why intercommunion is an impossibility for the Orthodox and we shall share communion on that glorious day when unity is complete.

Thank you Father, for that sums up the long standing position of the Orthodox members of the North American Theological Consultation under the spiritual guidance of Metropolitan Maximos these many years. As he is not in the best of health, please remember His Eminence in your prayers. A more humble, gracious, intelligent and pious servant of God, one would be hard pressed to find in any church.
Many years!
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and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #80 on: June 12, 2011, 10:07:21 PM »

The Orthodox position is that communion will be the crowning point of union, not the starting point nor a stage along the way.  

They say it will proceed in the stages that we see in the Liturgy...

"Let us love one another....."   love will be the first stage

".... that we may confess..."  Identity of confession of faith will be stage two

and that will lead very quickly to stage three.... communion.
I wonder how long it will be before the first stage is reached?
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« Reply #81 on: June 12, 2011, 10:27:09 PM »

The Orthodox position is that communion will be the crowning point of union, not the starting point nor a stage along the way.  

They say it will proceed in the stages that we see in the Liturgy...

"Let us love one another....."   love will be the first stage

".... that we may confess..."  Identity of confession of faith will be stage two

and that will lead very quickly to stage three.... communion.
I wonder how long it will be before the first stage is reached?
I don't know. Unlikely until everyone acknowledges it's a two way street.
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« Reply #82 on: June 13, 2011, 10:14:54 AM »

The Orthodox position is that communion will be the crowning point of union, not the starting point nor a stage along the way.  

That's also a partial explanation of why I don't join the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #83 on: June 13, 2011, 11:10:03 AM »

The Orthodox position is that communion will be the crowning point of union, not the starting point nor a stage along the way.  

They say it will proceed in the stages that we see in the Liturgy...

"Let us love one another....."   love will be the first stage

".... that we may confess..."  Identity of confession of faith will be stage two

and that will lead very quickly to stage three.... communion.
I wonder how long it will be before the first stage is reached?
I don't know. Unlikely until everyone acknowledges it's a two way street.

Unlike what one might ferret from this board, I do think that there is more love out there than you would think, not universal but it is real.
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« Reply #84 on: June 13, 2011, 03:12:33 PM »

The Orthodox position is that communion will be the crowning point of union, not the starting point nor a stage along the way.  

They say it will proceed in the stages that we see in the Liturgy...

"Let us love one another....."   love will be the first stage

".... that we may confess..."  Identity of confession of faith will be stage two

and that will lead very quickly to stage three.... communion.
I wonder how long it will be before the first stage is reached?
I don't know. Unlikely until everyone acknowledges it's a two way street.

Unlike what one might ferret from this board, I do think that there is more love out there than you would think, not universal but it is real.

What Orthodox faithful do to one another is far far worse than what they do to Catholics.
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« Reply #85 on: June 13, 2011, 03:18:38 PM »

The Orthodox position is that communion will be the crowning point of union, not the starting point nor a stage along the way.  

They say it will proceed in the stages that we see in the Liturgy...

"Let us love one another....."   love will be the first stage

".... that we may confess..."  Identity of confession of faith will be stage two

and that will lead very quickly to stage three.... communion.
I wonder how long it will be before the first stage is reached?
I don't know. Unlikely until everyone acknowledges it's a two way street.

Unlike what one might ferret from this board, I do think that there is more love out there than you would think, not universal but it is real.

What Orthodox faithful do to one another is far far worse than what they do to Catholics.

Ahhh, we're pretty tough on them too..... Wink Wink Wink
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« Reply #86 on: June 13, 2011, 03:24:31 PM »

The Orthodox position is that communion will be the crowning point of union, not the starting point nor a stage along the way.  

They say it will proceed in the stages that we see in the Liturgy...

"Let us love one another....."   love will be the first stage

".... that we may confess..."  Identity of confession of faith will be stage two

and that will lead very quickly to stage three.... communion.
I wonder how long it will be before the first stage is reached?
I don't know. Unlikely until everyone acknowledges it's a two way street.

Unlike what one might ferret from this board, I do think that there is more love out there than you would think, not universal but it is real.

What Orthodox faithful do to one another is far far worse than what they do to Catholics.

Ahhh, we're pretty tough on them too..... Wink Wink Wink

Pretty combative stuff all 'round !!...........
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« Reply #87 on: June 13, 2011, 03:33:38 PM »

You are absolutely correct about it needing to be accepted by the whole church. My only point was that Patriarchs are not little popes and don't always get what they want. I think some orthodox and a lot of nonorthodox don't understand that.
Oh lol, I was responding to the posts just before yours from the roman catholic members.
thanks.
Suppose then, that all of the Orthodox Patriarchs and all of the Orthodox bishops and their participating theologians,  reached an agreement with the Roman Pope. Would it be likely to be rejected by the rest of the Orthodox Church?

No. It happened before and failed, ending in recanting or schism. It is not the bishops and theologians who guard the faith, but the people. This is our experiential ecclesiology. It's messy, but it's ours, and we rather like it.
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« Reply #88 on: June 13, 2011, 03:37:54 PM »

You are absolutely correct about it needing to be accepted by the whole church. My only point was that Patriarchs are not little popes and don't always get what they want. I think some orthodox and a lot of nonorthodox don't understand that.
Oh lol, I was responding to the posts just before yours from the roman catholic members.
thanks.
Suppose then, that all of the Orthodox Patriarchs and all of the Orthodox bishops and their participating theologians,  reached an agreement with the Roman Pope. Would it be likely to be rejected by the rest of the Orthodox Church?

No. It happened before and failed, ending in recanting or schism. It is not the bishops and theologians who guard the faith, but the people. This is our experiential ecclesiology. It's messy, but it's ours, and we rather like it.

One always wonders why you and your coreligionists bother with a hierarchy in any event.  Seems something of a waste...or a contradiction.
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« Reply #89 on: June 13, 2011, 03:47:59 PM »

The Orthodox position is that communion will be the crowning point of union, not the starting point nor a stage along the way.  

That's also a partial explanation of why I don't join the Orthodox Church.

And here, with other examples, I think, is why the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church do not unite, and may never unite in a good way without serious change happening in the Roman Catholic Church. Dogma is not the most serious thing that divides us. Dogmas are assented to easily enough. It is worldview which is much more difficult to change. Our Churches view things in opposing ways. I look at the whole history of the Western Church and see fundamental changes to worldview beginning in the late 11th and 12th centuries, and continuing to the present day, while I see continuities in the Orthodox Church from age to age. You may say this is because my perspective is biased. Fair enough. But I can provide many examples, not in an effort to chastise or assault, but to help you understand what I'm talking about. I'm not sure it would be beneficial to do this publicly since some may be offended, and it is not my intention at all, I only wish t say that the Orthodox Church does not recognize the Roman Catholic Church as being of one mind, and we believe that, as the Church, we have the mind of Christ. This is problematic for corporate reunions and for individual conversions. Whoever comes to the Church must put on Christ, including his mind, which is not divided. I'm not sure if I make myself clear. Some Eastern Catholics have a worldview which is much closer, if not much the same as ours, but I believe the Orthodox Church would have grave difficulty accepting the possibility of being in communion with those who do not share the same mind and spirituality (I don't speak of liturgical rites). Along with changes in dogma, we see more fundamental changes in worldview and spirituality in the West with Roman Catholics and Protestants, than we see with Non-Chalcedonians. (Non-Ephesians, in that they do not accept to call Our Lady the Mother of God and some have done away with icons under Muslim pressure, are of a mind quite different from that of the Orthodox.)
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