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Poll
Question: When will our two Churches reunite (if you select "other," please explain in a post)?
Within the next 10 to 20 years
Pshh! Not within my lifetime!
When the Pope becomes Orthodox
When the East stops being schismatic
NEVER
Other

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Author Topic: Is Orthodox-Catholic reunion on the horizon?  (Read 7330 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: June 08, 2011, 10:05:59 PM »

Hi everyone. I realize this is a somewhat tongue in cheek format, but I am interested in hearing what everyone thinks and why. Everyone's feedback is welcome! If you select "other" I ask you to please explain, but anyone is free to tell how they voted and why if they want to.
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« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2011, 10:19:52 PM »

When the Pope becomes Orthodox.

I don't mean he adapts Orthodox discipline (married priests, beards, all that), I simply mean he confesses the Orthodox Faith. Once he does that it will only be a matter of properly organizing it (as between the EO and OO).
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« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2011, 10:51:06 PM »

I said "when the Pope becomes Orthodox". But really I would say, when the Roman Catholic Church becomes Orthodox. It isn't just enough that the Pope "becomes Orthodox", but rather the whole Church. The Latin church shouldn't just be following the Pope in whatever he does.
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« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2011, 11:24:56 PM »

I said "when the Pope becomes Orthodox". But really I would say, when the Roman Catholic Church becomes Orthodox. It isn't just enough that the Pope "becomes Orthodox", but rather the whole Church. The Latin church shouldn't just be following the Pope in whatever he does.
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« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2011, 11:26:54 PM »

Christ is ascended!

I said other.  There are chances with the collapse of Western Europe, the restoration of the Russian Church and others (if they don't follow the Greeks in killing their next generation) it might happen in 40 years or so. So I might live to see it.
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« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2011, 11:30:25 PM »

When we can all confidently say we confess the same faith and share all things in common, we will have communion.
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« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2011, 11:34:40 PM »

Other: When they draw/paint/write icons the way we Orthodox do for the reasons we Orthodox do.
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« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2011, 11:45:39 PM »

Although I voted for having the Pope convert to Eastern Orthodoxy, I would much rather see the Orthodox churches unite (Eastern Orthodox, Ethiopian, Coptic, etc...) before we unite with the Roman Catholics.
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« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2011, 11:46:32 PM »

(if they don't follow the Greeks in killing their next generation)

I have a suspicion we are of the same mind, Isa, but would you mind unpacking this for me?
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« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2011, 12:09:00 AM »

What do you mean by "both churches" reuniting? Do you mean the majority? Or all Bishops along with the majority of their faithful? Or all of their faithful?
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« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2011, 12:55:01 AM »

Although I voted for having the Pope convert to Eastern Orthodoxy, I would much rather see the Orthodox churches unite (Eastern Orthodox, Ethiopian, Coptic, etc...) before we unite with the Roman Catholics.
Yes, I don't think we can move forward until that occurs. We already agree the EO and OO have the same faith, therefore it is a situation in which we can figure out how reunion can happen. Once we have things sorted out then we can worry about the Catholics coming to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2011, 01:00:09 AM »

It is on the horizon.......




And there it shall stay.


Seriously, I can never see it happening.  Undecided
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« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2011, 02:13:00 AM »

It is on the horizon.......




And there it shall stay.


Seriously, I can never see it happening.  Undecided
Yes, it would seem that NEVER and When the Pope becomes Orthodox are the same answer in reality,
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« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2011, 02:51:35 AM »

While I do have a hope for the union of our Churches I am also inclined to accept these words from Saint Nektary of Optina, the last Optina Elder who died in 1927:

Once N. Pavlovich asked the Elder: "Is it possible to hope for the unification of the churches?"

He replied, "No! only an Ecumenical Council could do that, but there will be no more councils. There have already been seven councils, like the seven sacraments and the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit. For our age, the number of fullness is the number seven. Eight is the number of the future age. Only separate people will be united to our Church."

"Wisdom has built herself a house with seven pillars. Orthodoxy has these seven pillars. But God's wisdom has other dwellings- they may have six pillars or fewer, and accordingly a lesser measure of grace." Saint Nektary of Optina


Source: Elder Nektary of Optina by I.M. Kontzevitch Pages 181 and 182
 
 
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« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2011, 03:28:53 AM »

While I do have a hope for the union of our Churches I am also inclined to accept these words from Saint Nektary of Optina, the last Optina Elder who died in 1927:

Once N. Pavlovich asked the Elder: "Is it possible to hope for the unification of the churches?"

He replied, "No! only an Ecumenical Council could do that, but there will be no more councils. There have already been seven councils, like the seven sacraments and the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit. For our age, the number of fullness is the number seven. Eight is the number of the future age. Only separate people will be united to our Church."

"Wisdom has built herself a house with seven pillars. Orthodoxy has these seven pillars. But God's wisdom has other dwellings- they may have six pillars or fewer, and accordingly a lesser measure of grace." Saint Nektary of Optina


Source: Elder Nektary of Optina by I.M. Kontzevitch Pages 181 and 182
 
 


Interesting. Could this planned Orthodox council lead to a false union?

It has been mentioned that in the End times, there would be a false one world religion. Is that possible
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« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2011, 03:38:48 AM »


Interesting. Could this planned Orthodox council lead to a false union?


Not in my estimation. They abandoned their recent meeting in Chambesy because the Orthodox primates couldn't agree as to where they should sit at the conference table.  If the big boys are unable to decide even that..................well, I doubt they can really get their heads around the major question of reintegrating Rome into the Church.   The anti-unionists can breathe a sigh of relief.
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« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2011, 06:26:01 AM »

Christ is ascended!
(if they don't follow the Greeks in killing their next generation)

I have a suspicion we are of the same mind, Isa, but would you mind unpacking this for me?

The abortion rate and the decay of family life in Greece is atrocious. It's bad in Russia, Serbia etc. too, but there they had a militant atheist dictatorship imposing that.  The Greeks freely chose to go down that route.  Russia, Serbia etc. can chose to go in the opposite direction. If they do, Orthodoxy's star in the world will rise, and can meet the Vatican on a more equal footing in the world (Orthodoxy having the Truth, in the other world it is no contest).  If Russia, Serbia etc. decide to use their new found freedom to go down the same road to hell that Greece has chosen, well, you can't act surprise if you arrive where you are going.
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« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2011, 08:27:31 AM »

We already agree the EO and OO have the same faith, therefore it is a situation in which we can figure out how reunion can happen.

So then I guess the big question is, what would have to change in the RCC in order for you to be able to say "EO and RC have the same faith"?
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« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2011, 08:52:38 AM »

We already agree the EO and OO have the same faith, therefore it is a situation in which we can figure out how reunion can happen.

So then I guess the big question is, what would have to change in the RCC in order for you to be able to say "EO and RC have the same faith"?

For my part, I think Fr Thomas Hopko (who is a generally moderate Orthodox voice) has an excellent and balanced list at the end of this article: http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/HopkoPope.php
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« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2011, 09:50:06 AM »

I voted other because not only would the Pope have to become Orthodox the Catholic church as a whole would have to renounce it's heterodox doctrines
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« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2011, 11:47:40 AM »

He replied, "No! only an Ecumenical Council could do that, but there will be no more councils. There have already been seven councils,

Or eight, or nine...

Quote
like the seven sacraments and the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit.

He read RCC catechism too often.
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« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2011, 11:53:50 AM »

He replied, "No! only an Ecumenical Council could do that, but there will be no more councils. There have already been seven councils,

Or eight, or nine...


So what can we say?  Just as the Catholics cannot say how many infallible statements there are the Orthodox have no idea how many Ecumenical Councils we have held?  Hmmmm!

We used to be called "The Church of the Seven Councils" but these days...?
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« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2011, 12:03:31 PM »

He replied, "No! only an Ecumenical Council could do that, but there will be no more councils. There have already been seven councils,

Or eight, or nine...


So what can we say?  Just as the Catholics cannot say how many infallible statements there are the Orthodox have no idea how many Ecumenical Councils we have held?  Hmmmm!

We used to be called "The Church of the Seven Councils" but these days...?

I not big on numerology either way! In any event, I couldn't find a 'Happy Belated Great Council' card to send the Patriarchs at the local greeting card kiosk, so I don't think it's going to happen any time soon! lol
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« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2011, 01:02:31 PM »

We already agree the EO and OO have the same faith, therefore it is a situation in which we can figure out how reunion can happen.

So then I guess the big question is, what would have to change in the RCC in order for you to be able to say "EO and RC have the same faith"?

For my part, I think Fr Thomas Hopko (who is a generally moderate Orthodox voice) has an excellent and balanced list at the end of this article: http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/HopkoPope.php
There only seem to be a few points in there that are actually Church dividing issues.
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« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2011, 01:26:09 PM »

Christ is ascended!
We already agree the EO and OO have the same faith, therefore it is a situation in which we can figure out how reunion can happen.

So then I guess the big question is, what would have to change in the RCC in order for you to be able to say "EO and RC have the same faith"?
Anathematize filioque, Pastor Aeternus, Ineffibilis Deus, withdraw recognition of your "ecumenical councils" as ecumenical after Nicea II, reaffirm Constantinople IV 879 (including voiding Constantinople IV 869), reaffirm Quintesext, abolish the college of cardinals, set up your local Bishops conferences into Holy Synods and grant autocephaly and autonomy to appropriate Holy Synods (and prepare to unite them to local the Orthodox Holy Synods, once an act of canonical communion is effected), reunite the sui juris Churches to their Mother Churches instanter, stop promotion of "private revelation," correct scholasticism. 
I'll see if I can think of anything else.
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« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2011, 01:28:54 PM »

If only it were so simple.....  (and prepare to unite them to local the Orthodox Holy Synods, once an act of canonical communion is effected) ..... I assume then that you would be willing to sacrifice our praxis to that of the predominant western majority here in the United States? That didn't work out so well for the Eastern Catholics in the 19th and 20th centuries.  That couldn't be what you mean....
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« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2011, 01:58:09 PM »

I wonder if a more appropriate question might not be, "How many people really want Orthodox-Catholic 'reunion'"?

It ain't *ever* gonna happen if people don't want it.  And it may not, anyway.  We don't know God's mind and there is certainly the possibility that He doesn't want it.  Or, He may, and we're just going to continue to try to make Him yield to our wills, instead of vice-versa.
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« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2011, 02:11:26 PM »

Christ is ascended!
We already agree the EO and OO have the same faith, therefore it is a situation in which we can figure out how reunion can happen.

So then I guess the big question is, what would have to change in the RCC in order for you to be able to say "EO and RC have the same faith"?
Anathematize filioque, Pastor Aeternus, Ineffibilis Deus, withdraw recognition of your "ecumenical councils" as ecumenical after Nicea II, reaffirm Constantinople IV 879 (including voiding Constantinople IV 869), reaffirm Quintesext, abolish the college of cardinals, set up your local Bishops conferences into Holy Synods and grant autocephaly and autonomy to appropriate Holy Synods (and prepare to unite them to local the Orthodox Holy Synods, once an act of canonical communion is effected), reunite the sui juris Churches to their Mother Churches instanter, stop promotion of "private revelation," correct scholasticism. 
I'll see if I can think of anything else.

I don't think that's going to happen, except for the last part.

Anyhow, the point of my question wasn't so much to get an answer as to consider a different line of thinking regarding what the main question is.
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« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2011, 02:16:44 PM »

We already agree the EO and OO have the same faith, therefore it is a situation in which we can figure out how reunion can happen.

So then I guess the big question is, what would have to change in the RCC in order for you to be able to say "EO and RC have the same faith"?
This question has been asked and addressed over and over on internet forums around the world ad infinitum, so I'll just give one major example - the belief in Papal Infallibility. The belief that an individual human being can be infallible under any circumstances stands contrary to the Orthodox faith.
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« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2011, 02:30:58 PM »

There's already a discussion about Fr. Z's podcast, "Toward a true ecumenism", but there's one thing I noticed in it that pertains to this thread: he says something to the effect that he doesn't think reunion will happen until the end of time.

Personally I don't agree with that at all. I don't think we are close to reunion, but I see no reason to think it won't happen somewhere down the road, in a generation or two, or ...
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« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2011, 02:32:27 PM »

We already agree the EO and OO have the same faith, therefore it is a situation in which we can figure out how reunion can happen.

So then I guess the big question is, what would have to change in the RCC in order for you to be able to say "EO and RC have the same faith"?

For my part, I think Fr Thomas Hopko (who is a generally moderate Orthodox voice) has an excellent and balanced list at the end of this article: http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/HopkoPope.php

After giving it a quick look-over, I think this is pretty reasonable. It addresses the causes of our division without forcing Rome to give up more than what was had before the schism.

I wonder if a more appropriate question might not be, "How many people really want Orthodox-Catholic 'reunion'"?

It ain't *ever* gonna happen if people don't want it.  And it may not, anyway.  We don't know God's mind and there is certainly the possibility that He doesn't want it.  Or, He may, and we're just going to continue to try to make Him yield to our wills, instead of vice-versa.

I think there is truth in this.
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« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2011, 03:04:05 PM »

To re-format this into list form...

Christ is ascended!
We already agree the EO and OO have the same faith, therefore it is a situation in which we can figure out how reunion can happen.

So then I guess the big question is, what would have to change in the RCC in order for you to be able to say "EO and RC have the same faith"?
1. Anathematize filioque,
2. Pastor Aeternus,
3. Ineffibilis Deus,
4. withdraw recognition of your "ecumenical councils" as ecumenical after Nicea II,
5. reaffirm Constantinople IV 879 (including voiding Constantinople IV 869),
6. reaffirm Quintesext,
7. abolish the college of cardinals,
8. set up your local Bishops conferences into Holy Synods and grant autocephaly and 9. autonomy to appropriate Holy Synods (and prepare to unite them to local the Orthodox Holy Synods, once an act of canonical communion is effected),
10. reunite the sui juris Churches to their Mother Churches instanter,
11. stop promotion of "private revelation,"
12. correct scholasticism.
 
I'll see if I can think of anything else.

I like this list. However, I think #9 will be tricky, because of the resentment between Western and Eastern Rite. It exists in both churches (although, somewhat more in the RCC against the East) and we would have to be careful that it doesn't happen again. I would propose, for a time, for the Eastern and Western Rite churches in the same area to remain administratively separate, having all of the bishops of both rites meeting as a Synod and electing a single primate, but relegating the place of second honor after the primate to a bishop of the other rite.

Great list! Definitely something I can get behind! ;-D

Oh, and I voted "When the Pope becomes Orthodox." Just for the record!
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« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2011, 03:34:30 PM »

To re-format this into list form...

Christ is ascended!
We already agree the EO and OO have the same faith, therefore it is a situation in which we can figure out how reunion can happen.

So then I guess the big question is, what would have to change in the RCC in order for you to be able to say "EO and RC have the same faith"?
1. Anathematize filioque,
2. Pastor Aeternus,
3. Ineffibilis Deus,
4. withdraw recognition of your "ecumenical councils" as ecumenical after Nicea II,
5. reaffirm Constantinople IV 879 (including voiding Constantinople IV 869),
6. reaffirm Quintesext,
7. abolish the college of cardinals,
8. set up your local Bishops conferences into Holy Synods and grant autocephaly and 9. autonomy to appropriate Holy Synods (and prepare to unite them to local the Orthodox Holy Synods, once an act of canonical communion is effected),
10. reunite the sui juris Churches to their Mother Churches instanter,
11. stop promotion of "private revelation,"
12. correct scholasticism.
 
I'll see if I can think of anything else.

I like this list. However, I think #9 will be tricky, because of the resentment between Western and Eastern Rite. It exists in both churches (although, somewhat more in the RCC against the East) and we would have to be careful that it doesn't happen again. I would propose, for a time, for the Eastern and Western Rite churches in the same area to remain administratively separate, having all of the bishops of both rites meeting as a Synod and electing a single primate, but relegating the place of second honor after the primate to a bishop of the other rite.

Great list! Definitely something I can get behind! ;-D

Oh, and I voted "When the Pope becomes Orthodox." Just for the record!

Sounds better than it plays out, ask the Lebanese how that's worked out the fifty years under their constitution with alternating top jobs between Muslims and Maronites.
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« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2011, 03:42:21 PM »

To re-format this into list form...

Christ is ascended!
We already agree the EO and OO have the same faith, therefore it is a situation in which we can figure out how reunion can happen.

So then I guess the big question is, what would have to change in the RCC in order for you to be able to say "EO and RC have the same faith"?
1. Anathematize filioque,
2. Pastor Aeternus,
3. Ineffibilis Deus,
4. withdraw recognition of your "ecumenical councils" as ecumenical after Nicea II,
5. reaffirm Constantinople IV 879 (including voiding Constantinople IV 869),
6. reaffirm Quintesext,
7. abolish the college of cardinals,
8. set up your local Bishops conferences into Holy Synods and grant autocephaly and 9. autonomy to appropriate Holy Synods (and prepare to unite them to local the Orthodox Holy Synods, once an act of canonical communion is effected),
10. reunite the sui juris Churches to their Mother Churches instanter,
11. stop promotion of "private revelation,"
12. correct scholasticism.
 
I'll see if I can think of anything else.

I like this list. However, I think #9 will be tricky, because of the resentment between Western and Eastern Rite. It exists in both churches (although, somewhat more in the RCC against the East) and we would have to be careful that it doesn't happen again. I would propose, for a time, for the Eastern and Western Rite churches in the same area to remain administratively separate, having all of the bishops of both rites meeting as a Synod and electing a single primate, but relegating the place of second honor after the primate to a bishop of the other rite.

Great list! Definitely something I can get behind! ;-D

Oh, and I voted "When the Pope becomes Orthodox." Just for the record!

Let's back up a step here. Are y'all saying that if the RC side doesn't "prepare to unite them to local the Orthodox Holy Synods, once an act of canonical communion is effected", then it follows that we don't "have the same faith"?

Ay caramba.
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« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2011, 04:01:40 PM »

Christ is ascended!
If only it were so simple.....  (and prepare to unite them to local the Orthodox Holy Synods, once an act of canonical communion is effected) ..... I assume then that you would be willing to sacrifice our praxis to that of the predominant western majority here in the United States? That didn't work out so well for the Eastern Catholics in the 19th and 20th centuries.  That couldn't be what you mean....
No, it's not.  We know that there were Latin Churches in Constantinople before 1053, because EP Celarius shut them down, and there were Eastern/Greek parishes in Italy, because the Normans suppressed them.  So it would be like that, minus the suppression.

Reaffirmation of Quintisext would eliminate many of the praxis problems.
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« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2011, 04:36:44 PM »

To re-format this into list form...

Christ is ascended!
We already agree the EO and OO have the same faith, therefore it is a situation in which we can figure out how reunion can happen.

So then I guess the big question is, what would have to change in the RCC in order for you to be able to say "EO and RC have the same faith"?
1. Anathematize filioque,
2. Pastor Aeternus,
3. Ineffibilis Deus,
4. withdraw recognition of your "ecumenical councils" as ecumenical after Nicea II,
5. reaffirm Constantinople IV 879 (including voiding Constantinople IV 869),
6. reaffirm Quintesext,
7. abolish the college of cardinals,
8. set up your local Bishops conferences into Holy Synods and grant autocephaly and 9. autonomy to appropriate Holy Synods (and prepare to unite them to local the Orthodox Holy Synods, once an act of canonical communion is effected),
10. reunite the sui juris Churches to their Mother Churches instanter,
11. stop promotion of "private revelation,"
12. correct scholasticism.
 
I'll see if I can think of anything else.

I like this list. However, I think #9 will be tricky, because of the resentment between Western and Eastern Rite. It exists in both churches (although, somewhat more in the RCC against the East) and we would have to be careful that it doesn't happen again. I would propose, for a time, for the Eastern and Western Rite churches in the same area to remain administratively separate, having all of the bishops of both rites meeting as a Synod and electing a single primate, but relegating the place of second honor after the primate to a bishop of the other rite.

Great list! Definitely something I can get behind! ;-D

Oh, and I voted "When the Pope becomes Orthodox." Just for the record!

Let's back up a step here. Are y'all saying that if the RC side doesn't "prepare to unite them to local the Orthodox Holy Synods, once an act of canonical communion is effected", then it follows that we don't "have the same faith"?

Ay caramba.

Ecclesiology is intregal to the faith. If the RCC accepts the EO understanding of ecclesiology, it becomes necessary to divide the RCC into autocephalous churches, and merge them with the EO communities already in place there. It's simply the end result of attaining to the same faith.
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« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2011, 04:47:50 PM »

Although I voted for having the Pope convert to Eastern Orthodoxy, I would much rather see the Orthodox churches unite (Eastern Orthodox, Ethiopian, Coptic, etc...) before we unite with the Roman Catholics.
Yes, I don't think we can move forward until that occurs. We already agree the EO and OO have the same faith,
...and Rome, I believe, agrees that it and the OO have the same faith.
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« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2011, 04:57:07 PM »

Although I voted for having the Pope convert to Eastern Orthodoxy, I would much rather see the Orthodox churches unite (Eastern Orthodox, Ethiopian, Coptic, etc...) before we unite with the Roman Catholics.
Yes, I don't think we can move forward until that occurs. We already agree the EO and OO have the same faith,
...and Rome, I believe, agrees that it and the OO have the same faith.

I think they have mutually agreed that they have the same Christology. Rome may say that they have the same faith, but...I think the OO (at least most of them) would probably respond in the same way the EO would to that statement.

That said, I think it's essential for the EO and OO to reunite before the East unites with Rome. The EO and OO already largely agree that we maintain the same Orthodox faith, and reunion is now simply a matter of logistics and historical interpretation. Once that has been worked out, it can be the model of reunification between the Orthodox and the Romans, who presently do not share the same faith.
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« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2011, 10:02:27 AM »

Ecclesiology is intregal to the faith. If the RCC accepts the EO understanding of ecclesiology, it becomes necessary to divide the RCC into autocephalous churches, and merge them with the EO communities already in place there. It's simply the end result of attaining to the same faith.

Please forgive me for playing Rome's advocate here but, your proposed solution could hypothetically be pushed the other direction, especially in lands that are traditionally Roman Catholic, have higher numbers of them, or they were simly there first even if a minority. If a period (not permanace) of multi-jusdictional overlap between Roman and Eastern church authority with intercommunion is what is necessary to soften people's hearts, then I would not find the (temporary) situation to be too offensive, otherwise everyone will be demanding authority over everyone else's churches. It's bad enough in areas where this is happening between Orthodox churches who were never in schism with each other to begin with, demanding immediate jurisdictional unity will either extend the present schism unnecessarily or cause more schisms to happen unnecessarily.

I don't think anyone who is not willing to personally follow this to it's logical conclusion should really push the issue of jurisdictional unity being an immediate requirement of reunion.

Just my opinion.

EDIT: This was written with the assumption that a unity of faith has (hypothetically) been reached for the re-establishment of communion (in the hypothetical situation given).
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« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2011, 10:24:16 AM »

Christ is ascended!
If only it were so simple.....  (and prepare to unite them to local the Orthodox Holy Synods, once an act of canonical communion is effected) ..... I assume then that you would be willing to sacrifice our praxis to that of the predominant western majority here in the United States? That didn't work out so well for the Eastern Catholics in the 19th and 20th centuries.  That couldn't be what you mean....
No, it's not.  We know that there were Latin Churches in Constantinople before 1053, because EP Celarius shut them down, and there were Eastern/Greek parishes in Italy, because the Normans suppressed them.  So it would be like that, minus the suppression.

Reaffirmation of Quintisext would eliminate many of the praxis problems.

Therein lies the rub, doesn't it? Human nature wouldn't change, even if the 'rules' did.....
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« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2011, 11:03:08 AM »

To re-format this into list form...

Christ is ascended!
We already agree the EO and OO have the same faith, therefore it is a situation in which we can figure out how reunion can happen.

So then I guess the big question is, what would have to change in the RCC in order for you to be able to say "EO and RC have the same faith"?
1. Anathematize filioque,
2. Pastor Aeternus,
3. Ineffibilis Deus,
4. withdraw recognition of your "ecumenical councils" as ecumenical after Nicea II,
5. reaffirm Constantinople IV 879 (including voiding Constantinople IV 869),
6. reaffirm Quintesext,
7. abolish the college of cardinals,
8. set up your local Bishops conferences into Holy Synods and grant autocephaly and 9. autonomy to appropriate Holy Synods (and prepare to unite them to local the Orthodox Holy Synods, once an act of canonical communion is effected),
10. reunite the sui juris Churches to their Mother Churches instanter,
11. stop promotion of "private revelation,"
12. correct scholasticism.
 
I'll see if I can think of anything else.

I like this list. However, I think #9 will be tricky, because of the resentment between Western and Eastern Rite. It exists in both churches (although, somewhat more in the RCC against the East) and we would have to be careful that it doesn't happen again. I would propose, for a time, for the Eastern and Western Rite churches in the same area to remain administratively separate, having all of the bishops of both rites meeting as a Synod and electing a single primate, but relegating the place of second honor after the primate to a bishop of the other rite.

Great list! Definitely something I can get behind! ;-D

Oh, and I voted "When the Pope becomes Orthodox." Just for the record!

Let's back up a step here. Are y'all saying that if the RC side doesn't "prepare to unite them to local the Orthodox Holy Synods, once an act of canonical communion is effected", then it follows that we don't "have the same faith"?

Ay caramba.

Ecclesiology is intregal to the faith. If the RCC accepts the EO understanding of ecclesiology, it becomes necessary to divide the RCC into autocephalous churches, and merge them with the EO communities already in place there. It's simply the end result of attaining to the same faith.

I guess I'm in agreement with you insofar as neither of us subscribe to "Branch Theory". But there's a difference between saying "This is how it should be ideally" and forcing an impractical situation on everyone.

Consider: but the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church already have situations of overlapping jurisdictions.
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« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2011, 04:18:21 PM »

Consider: but the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church already have situations of overlapping jurisdictions.

No. Overlapping jurisdictions can occur between two local Churches. There aren't any overlapping jurisdictions between the Church and other religious communities.
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« Reply #42 on: June 10, 2011, 04:41:24 PM »

Top-down reunification has happened before (such as after the Council of Florence) and lasted for relatively short periods of times. I think that while top-down reunification that lasts is more feasible in our age, it's the bottom-up reunification that is going to matter most. If the people do not accept the decision of the patriarchs then the schism will still de facto exist. Of course, if one were to be truly faithful to your patriarchs you would follow them through with their reunification with Rome, in my opinion. The reunification may possibly only exist in small numbers and the rest would be in schism with the newly reunified church.

Personally, I think what needs to happen is a synod between the Pope and all the EO patriarchs, and the college of cardinals perhaps, and a long time spent in prayer and dialogue to reestablish unity and the role of the bishops. This might be a bit too ecumenical for some people but what is necessary to do must be done.

Whatever the solution to the schism is and whatever ultimately is necessary for unity, I want to live to see it. I have read some articles and it seems like the patriarchs of some of the churches are open to dialogue, and what a patriarch says has much more weight then what a layman on an internet forum says.

Life is too short and the world is too moribund for such a profound disunity to still exist.

While I do have a hope for the union of our Churches I am also inclined to accept these words from Saint Nektary of Optina, the last Optina Elder who died in 1927:

Once N. Pavlovich asked the Elder: "Is it possible to hope for the unification of the churches?"

He replied, "No! only an Ecumenical Council could do that, but there will be no more councils. There have already been seven councils, like the seven sacraments and the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit. For our age, the number of fullness is the number seven. Eight is the number of the future age. Only separate people will be united to our Church."

"Wisdom has built herself a house with seven pillars. Orthodoxy has these seven pillars. But God's wisdom has other dwellings- they may have six pillars or fewer, and accordingly a lesser measure of grace." Saint Nektary of Optina

What about the eight beatitudes? What if we consider monastic tonsure and installation of an emperor sacraments, as some Orthodox do, so I have heard? (Correct me if I'm wrong.)
What about Constantinople IV and V and the Synod of Jerusalem, considered by some Orthodox to be ecumenical?
This quote sounds very poetic and wise on the surface but it really doesn't reflect history and all its nuances as it actually is.
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« Reply #43 on: June 10, 2011, 05:48:27 PM »

Consider: but the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church already have situations of overlapping jurisdictions.

No. Overlapping jurisdictions can occur between two local Churches. There aren't any overlapping jurisdictions between the Church and other religious communities.

Hi Michał. I'm not really clear on what you're saying here. Are you disagree with my statement that the Orthodox Church has situations of overlapping jurisdictions?
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« Reply #44 on: June 10, 2011, 06:16:05 PM »

Hi Michał. I'm not really clear on what you're saying here. Are you disagree with my statement that the Orthodox Church has situations of overlapping jurisdictions?

There are overlapping jurisdictions within the Church but there are not between the EOC and the RCC.
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