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Seafra
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« on: June 08, 2011, 12:04:35 PM »

Im not really sure where to put this, so sorry if it needs to be moved.

This is something I have wrestled with for a few years now. Growing up baptist the whole fire and brimstone approach didn't even put a dear in me honestly, I have prayed to have this fear of the Lord constantly. What is orthodoxy's approach, i think that my logical mindset has ruined me for this. I hear people be put in fear just thinking about the descriptions of the Throne room, but i have read Hebrews over and over hoping to get some kind of notion and i just don't know what to do anymore. Any suggestions or ideas?
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« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2011, 12:17:59 PM »

I'm not sure what your question is.
Are you asking how to have fear of the Lord?

I grew up Baptist, too. Although my church didn't do alot of fire and brimstone preaching, I certainly saw it being done in other churches. It didn't put the fear of the Lord in me, either. And I don't think what they preach is proper fear of the Lord, anyway. I think it's ridiculous.
If what they said was true about God, I'd be more inclined to reject Him out of stubbornness, rather than be threatened into submission.
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« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2011, 12:22:00 PM »

I'm not sure what your question is.
Are you asking how to have fear of the Lord?

I grew up Baptist, too. Although my church didn't do alot of fire and brimstone preaching, I certainly saw it being done in other churches. It didn't make me fear Him either. I think it's ridiculous.
If those things are true about God, I'd be more inclined to reject Him out of stubbornness, rather than be threatened into submission.
sorry, yes I an wanting to obtain the fear of God...
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« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2011, 12:26:32 PM »

Aside from the fact nearly every holy person in the Scriptures when confronted with a manifestation of the Divine found themselves in "fear" (people like to make this word more friendly: "awe").

For me, I read the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew. Then the parable of the Last Judgement. If you believe in Christ, that seems enough to stoke some serious fear.

Also, I still fail not to get a bit fearful during the anaphora, especially when hearing:

Thine own of Thine own we Offer unto Thee, in behalf of all and for all!

My stomach drops every time I hear it.

And you have the sayings of St. Anthony on the fear of God. They are just wonderful:

Quote
32. Abba Anthony said, I no longer fear God, but I love Him. For love casts out fear.

33. He said, Always have the fear of God before your eyes. Remember Him who gives death and who gives life. Hate the world and all the things that are in it. Hate all fleshly recreation. Renounce this life, so you may live for God. Remember what you have promised to God, for it will be required of you in the Day of Judgment. Suffer hunger, suffer thirst, suffer nakedness, keep vigil, mourn, weep, lament in your heart. Test yourselves, to see if you are worthy of God. Disdain the flesh, so that you may save your souls.

http://www.groca.org/?p=617
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« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2011, 12:31:00 PM »

A note on growing up for a while as a Red-Letter-Scofield-Chain-Reference-Leather-KJV-Baptist, I never feared God once "saved". Why should I have been? The simple truth and faith I had in my conversion, which lasted some time, didn't allow me to fear God.

But, I sure as hell was scared for a lot of other people, especially those I cared about who were not saved.
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« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2011, 12:34:05 PM »

A note on growing up for a while as a Red-Letter-Scofield-Chain-Reference-Leather-KJV-Baptist, I never feared God once "saved". Why should I have been? The simple truth and faith I had in my conversion, which lasted some time, didn't allow me to fear God.

But, I sure as hell was scared for a lot of other people, especially those I cared about who were not saved.

I know what you mean. As a Baptist I was scared for alot of people who weren't Christians, too.
However, I never really thought of myself as saved. I always assumed I was going to hell.
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« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2011, 12:37:24 PM »

I choose not to accept awe in place of fear... The fear of God it's the start of wisdom... And also is places to keep us from sin... Awe and bewilderment don't really fulfill these. But healthy fear would...i guess I just need to keep praying, I know orthodoxy is big on experience which is why I was going for some advice...
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« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2011, 12:59:20 PM »

A note on growing up for a while as a Red-Letter-Scofield-Chain-Reference-Leather-KJV-Baptist, I never feared God once "saved". Why should I have been? The simple truth and faith I had in my conversion, which lasted some time, didn't allow me to fear God.

But, I sure as hell was scared for a lot of other people, especially those I cared about who were not saved.

Growing up in a Baptist-influenced, evangelical, non-denominational church, I had a very different experience (one I don't know of anyone else having, but I'm sure I'm not the only person).  I always was horribly afraid that my being "saved" wasn't legitimate because I couldn't help but think part of the reason I asked Jesus into my heart was because I was afraid of Hell, and I didn't think it counted if that was the case.
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« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2011, 01:07:15 PM »

Then the parable of the Last Judgement. If you believe in Christ, that seems enough to stoke some serious fear.

Aren't there a few eschatological parables by Christ? Which parable are you referring to?
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« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2011, 01:16:06 PM »

A note on growing up for a while as a Red-Letter-Scofield-Chain-Reference-Leather-KJV-Baptist, I never feared God once "saved". Why should I have been? The simple truth and faith I had in my conversion, which lasted some time, didn't allow me to fear God.

But, I sure as hell was scared for a lot of other people, especially those I cared about who were not saved.

Growing up in a Baptist-influenced, evangelical, non-denominational church, I had a very different experience (one I don't know of anyone else having, but I'm sure I'm not the only person).  I always was horribly afraid that my being "saved" wasn't legitimate because I couldn't help but think part of the reason I asked Jesus into my heart was because I was afraid of Hell, and I didn't think it counted if that was the case.
I'm pretty sure that is a common thing... I prayed the "all powerful" sinners prayer lyrically every night, but thats not a fear of God it's a lack of trust and faith if you ascribe to that belief but even more so it's your spirit saying it's not quite that easy lol
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« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2011, 01:49:57 PM »

Then the parable of the Last Judgement. If you believe in Christ, that seems enough to stoke some serious fear.

Aren't there a few eschatological parables by Christ? Which parable are you referring to?

It is the parable of the Last Judgement. It is the "theme" of the Second Sunday before Lent and is in the hymns during Lent and funeral services. There are icons depicting it as well.

Matthew 25:31-46

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« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2011, 09:02:49 PM »

Also, I still fail not to get a bit fearful during the anaphora, especially when hearing:

Thine own of Thine own we Offer unto Thee, in behalf of all and for all!

My stomach drops every time I hear it.

Me too!

Also, from the Divine Liturgy:

With fear of God, with faith and love, draw near.

It seems faith, love and fear should be held together in approaching God.

Hope this helps.
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« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2011, 09:19:08 PM »

Also, I still fail not to get a bit fearful during the anaphora, especially when hearing:

Thine own of Thine own we Offer unto Thee, in behalf of all and for all!

My stomach drops every time I hear it.

Me too!

Also, from the Divine Liturgy:

With fear of God, with faith and love, draw near.

It seems faith, love and fear should be held together in approaching God.

Hope this helps.
not really my problem is obtaining the fear lol...
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« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2011, 09:28:22 PM »

Also, I still fail not to get a bit fearful during the anaphora, especially when hearing:

Thine own of Thine own we Offer unto Thee, in behalf of all and for all!

My stomach drops every time I hear it.

Me too!

Also, from the Divine Liturgy:

With fear of God, with faith and love, draw near.

It seems faith, love and fear should be held together in approaching God.

Hope this helps.
not really my problem is obtaining the fear lol...

Maybe you are more fearful than you think?

I mean, do you acknowledge the Lord's sovereignty over your life and this universe?
Do you wish to live a life well-pleasing to the Lord?
Do you wish to avoid the condemnation which you eat and drink upon yourself by partaking of the mysteries unworthily?
Do you wish to have your name written in the book of Life?
Do you believe that no thing can happen which is not permitted by the Lord to happen?
Do you acknowledge that you are a speck of dust before the infinite ocean which is the Lord?
Do you treat the Lord's holy things with respect?

I would hesitate to offer a definition of fear of God, but surely these are elements of the concept.
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« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2011, 09:37:23 PM »

Dread is a better replacing concept for fear.
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« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2011, 09:42:05 PM »

Thine own of Thine own we Offer unto Thee, in behalf of all and for all!

Is the delivery of that line supposed to be intense? Because whenever my priest says it, it is otherworldly. Doesn't even sound like his voice when he is regularly chanting. I get shivers up my spine.
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« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2011, 09:46:15 PM »

Thine own of Thine own we Offer unto Thee, in behalf of all and for all!

Is the delivery of that line supposed to be intense? Because whenever my priest says it, it is otherworldly. Doesn't even sound like his voice when he is regularly chanting. I get shivers up my spine.

First liturgy I went to, when I really didn't care much for what was going on around me, except charmed by the kids, that moment made an impression. And it continues to become a little more (no good word but yeah, shivers up mine spine works).

Every time, no matter how irritable I am or how much my brain wishes it were somewhere else. That part of the anaphora definitely causes me great pause.
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« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2011, 10:25:23 PM »

Also, I still fail not to get a bit fearful during the anaphora, especially when hearing:

Thine own of Thine own we Offer unto Thee, in behalf of all and for all!

My stomach drops every time I hear it.

Me too!

Also, from the Divine Liturgy:

With fear of God, with faith and love, draw near.

It seems faith, love and fear should be held together in approaching God.

Hope this helps.
not really my problem is obtaining the fear lol...

Maybe you are more fearful than you think?

I mean, do you acknowledge the Lord's sovereignty over your life and this universe?
Do you wish to live a life well-pleasing to the Lord?
Do you wish to avoid the condemnation which you eat and drink upon yourself by partaking of the mysteries unworthily?
Do you wish to have your name written in the book of Life?
Do you believe that no thing can happen which is not permitted by the Lord to happen?
Do you acknowledge that you are a speck of dust before the infinite ocean which is the Lord?
Do you treat the Lord's holy things with respect?

I would hesitate to offer a definition of fear of God, but surely these are elements of the concept.
yes, yes, yes (although i don't get to as I'm not orthodox yet), yes, yes, yes, yes, however these i do as that it simple logic and common sense... i feel no fear compelling these choices, Here is what it comes down to for me, I see the fear of the lord being something that serious hinders one from sinning and draws a great dread when one does sin, however i find my self sinning and i genuinely desire not to but it doesn't bother me the way i would like it to that i sin. I don't hate sin the way i should especially if i were full of the fear of God...
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« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2011, 10:48:39 PM »

I don't mean this as a dismissive response, but prayer is a very important part of obtaining this.  We acknowledge this within our prayers, and ask to obtain this fear (as many don't have it, or lose it on their own).

One example is found in the prayer to our Guardian Angel, sometimes included in the Small Compline: "...and intercede with the Lord in my behalf, that He might strengthen me in the fear of Him, and make me a worthy servant of His goodness."

It is the parable of the Last Judgement. It is the "theme" of the Second Sunday before Lent and is in the hymns during Lent and funeral services. There are icons depicting it as well.

Mighty instructive icons, if I do say so myself.
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« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2011, 10:56:01 PM »

"Thou shalt not withhold thine hand from thy son or from thy daughter, but thou shalt teach them the fear of God from their youth up."

-The Didache

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« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2011, 10:57:00 PM »

I wasn't implying prayer is not an effective means of obtaining but was curious about anything else lol more like advice I guess? Thank you for your response
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« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2011, 10:58:12 PM »

"Thou shalt not withhold thine hand from thy son or from thy daughter, but thou shalt teach them the fear of God from their youth up."

-The Didache

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(P.S., from the greek as I understand it, it's not referring to beatings. Don't worry.)
so how can one be taught the fear of the lord?
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« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2011, 01:48:30 AM »

Do you really want what your asking for?
Consider Adam and Eve in the Garden. Blissful and happy. And then they received wisdom and became ashamed. They were then cast out and made to suffer. Having the fear of God is a heavy burden. Better to accept your path as it is given to you then to have the fear of God drive you towards it.
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« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2011, 01:56:39 AM »

many times we are commanded to have the fear of the lord and it is a promise of the new covenant...
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« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2011, 02:05:05 AM »

God is uncreated and we are created. God is unlimited and we are limited. God is uncircumscribed and we are circumscribed.

I think the awareness of this reality is part of the Fear of God.
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« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2011, 02:35:49 AM »

many times we are commanded to have the fear of the lord and it is a promise of the new covenant...

Agreed and many Holy Fathers and Elders talk about the importance of having this fear.

God is uncreated and we are created. God is unlimited and we are limited. God is uncircumscribed and we are circumscribed.
I think the awareness of this reality is part of the Fear of God.

I can't agree more.  Awareness of God's magnificence and perfection.  Simultaneously, His ever present interest in our success, and our almost constant failure.
Even then, somehow my fear remains fleeting.
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« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2011, 02:38:25 AM »

fleeting is an understatement i feel lol... but i guess the desire is a sign im at least on the path right?
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« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2011, 02:48:52 AM »

I would certainly think so.  A lot of people have a real aversion, for whatever reasons, to obtaining this fear.  They want their New Age god to be like a friendly professor who requires nothing from his students, yet writes overly generous letters of recommendation.

There are many things we shouldn't ask God for, but I wouldn't count the granting of fear towards Him amongst them.
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« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2011, 03:01:58 AM »

Is this one of those things where you acknowledge something intellectually but have a tough time feeling it emotionally?

If so, I think I get where you're coming from and must say that I think the answer is to pray.
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« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2011, 03:27:39 AM »

Ha well i dont really feel much emotionally at all, but my thing is like i said i see the "Fear of the Lord" being something that actually aids us in theosis... Pro 8:13 "The fear of the Lord is to hate evil;..." is one thing i think of... But i guess in the most simplistic way to answer your question yes... lol
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« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2011, 05:07:09 AM »

Are you serious?? I mean i am fearless regarding other people or situations (well most situations i can think of one i am apprehensive about haha...) but everything apart from that one. And i can tell you i have been in some pretty scary situations some of them i thought i was going to die so i don't say that flippently but its because i don't care i know i can handle myself and i'm not scared of dying like some ppl are which makes them afraid and do stupid things when they're in a tricky spot BUT God???




Why the heck do you think i would even be interested in God??? lolOl it's not love that has made me keep interested and ask more questions to the point of seriously thinking of trying to change myself to fit in with God. It's because God (who i have decided exists) is just. Thats it in a nutshell and he might be good (w/eva that means) and he might be love (w/eva that means) and he might be mercifull but he is JUST and justice has a line right down the middle that is clear. Also he has the power to torture and torment ppl for eternity!!!!! Yeah thats pretty scary and as much as ppl say his love and grace and goodness is more prominent or overrides the other stuff (sorry can't think of how i want to say that) i think i would be rli wary of underestimating someone with that much power or even thinking that you are tight with him and finding out you are seriously not. That would be a misjudgement that has got consequences i don't even want to imaging.



Like how can anyone riggle out of THAT??? haha.... it's not like you can talk your way out of something with someone that knows what your heart and mind really think....and trust me i can talk my way out of most things but..... God scares the crap out of me and i don't feel stupid in admitting that. You can't think you know God...... i think allot of ppl think they do....and its going to be a shocker. If reading about him in the bible (not just what people like to tell you...the good bits) doesn't give you the sweats then your DOOMED mate lolOl or your reading a different book to the one i am.



ps im not saying this to be down on you but to give you a different perspective to othr ppl

OFFS there paragraphs!!!! like i care if you read it or not??? frkn baby
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« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2011, 05:10:01 AM »

Poppy,

If you used paragraphs, I might read your posts.

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« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2011, 05:15:09 AM »

Poppy,

If you used paragraphs, I might read your posts.



and ALL of my other posts have paragraphs i just looked so it was only this one.....so dont exagerate

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The only way in which we can know anything about the Trinity is what the Trinity has revealed to us. We can't deduce anything about God, we can't conceptualize God, and we can't simply decide for ourselves what the nature, attributes, relationships etc of God is. Each Person of the Trinity has a unique relationship to each other Person of the Trinity, and God has a unique relation to each created thing, and the only way we can possibly know any of this is if God reveals it to us. God is Absolute, and therefore, the truth about God and His internal and external relationships is also Absolute- this truth cannot be relative. God is one, and the truth about Him and His relationships is also One, and what we know of these has been delivered once and for all through the Apostles and cannot be added to or subtracted from, and the Apostles declare that there is only "one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism". The little we know about the Transcendent Trinity we all once agreed upon. This includes the Truth that the Father is the Eternal Begettor of the Son, as well as the Eternal Source from which the Spirit proceeds. When the Latin Church added the Filioque to the Creed, the relationship between the Persons of the Holy Trinity came to be understood differently. This became even more compounded until Roman Catholics came to believe that the Holy Spirit was "the love between the Father and the Son". This is a different understanding of the Trinity to what Orthodox Christians hold. Now remember, the only way we can know anything about God is if He reveals it to us. So now we have two diverse opinions about the Trinity: one says that the Father is the Source and Begetter of the other two Persons, and the other opinion says that while the Father is the Begettor of the Son, the Spirit is the mutual Love between the Son and the Father and therefore is sourced from both of them. So which one is the revelation of God to humanity? They can't both be, since they disagree with each other. So one of them is the revelation of God, and the other is a creation of human thought and imagination. So one group of believers is worshipping God as He revealed Himself, and the other group of believers is worshipping a God which is a combination of God's revelation mixed with the projection of human imagination. The question "Are they different Gods?" is a tricky one, not for reasons of political correctness, but because we need to understand the implications of this difference. Let's say you invite me to your house for dinner, and I bring along a female companion. I introduce her to you by name and tell you that she and I live together. At some point we ring home to check on the baby sitter. You ask us how long we've been married and we tell you that we are not married. The following Sunday you see us both Communing in Church, and after Services, people ask you about us. What do you say to them if you must tell the truth? You say that we are not married but live together and have a child, and this spreads through the congregation and reaches the Priest. The following Sunday we arrive at Church and are refused Communion, and the Priest asks us to see him after Church. At the meeting we explain that she is my recently widowed sister and nephew who have moved in with me because she could not afford her rent. My sister, myself and my nephew were understood aa one thing and then understood as another. We as persons have not changed, but your understanding and of our personhood and relationship to us have changed- or as we say in common parlance: we are different people to what you thought we were.

THIS is post of the MONTH 2011 May..... you see many paragraphs??? aww shame you wont have read it.... its a blinder...rli great post as well.
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« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2011, 05:24:49 AM »

Poppy,

If you used paragraphs, I might read your posts.



and ALL of my other posts have paragraphs i just looked so it was only this one.....so dont exagerate

AND...
Quote
I have no authority to speak for the Church, and no one person does. I can speak only what I believe.
The only way in which we can know anything about the Trinity is what the Trinity has revealed to us. We can't deduce anything about God, we can't conceptualize God, and we can't simply decide for ourselves what the nature, attributes, relationships etc of God is. Each Person of the Trinity has a unique relationship to each other Person of the Trinity, and God has a unique relation to each created thing, and the only way we can possibly know any of this is if God reveals it to us. God is Absolute, and therefore, the truth about God and His internal and external relationships is also Absolute- this truth cannot be relative. God is one, and the truth about Him and His relationships is also One, and what we know of these has been delivered once and for all through the Apostles and cannot be added to or subtracted from, and the Apostles declare that there is only "one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism". The little we know about the Transcendent Trinity we all once agreed upon. This includes the Truth that the Father is the Eternal Begettor of the Son, as well as the Eternal Source from which the Spirit proceeds. When the Latin Church added the Filioque to the Creed, the relationship between the Persons of the Holy Trinity came to be understood differently. This became even more compounded until Roman Catholics came to believe that the Holy Spirit was "the love between the Father and the Son". This is a different understanding of the Trinity to what Orthodox Christians hold. Now remember, the only way we can know anything about God is if He reveals it to us. So now we have two diverse opinions about the Trinity: one says that the Father is the Source and Begetter of the other two Persons, and the other opinion says that while the Father is the Begettor of the Son, the Spirit is the mutual Love between the Son and the Father and therefore is sourced from both of them. So which one is the revelation of God to humanity? They can't both be, since they disagree with each other. So one of them is the revelation of God, and the other is a creation of human thought and imagination. So one group of believers is worshipping God as He revealed Himself, and the other group of believers is worshipping a God which is a combination of God's revelation mixed with the projection of human imagination. The question "Are they different Gods?" is a tricky one, not for reasons of political correctness, but because we need to understand the implications of this difference. Let's say you invite me to your house for dinner, and I bring along a female companion. I introduce her to you by name and tell you that she and I live together. At some point we ring home to check on the baby sitter. You ask us how long we've been married and we tell you that we are not married. The following Sunday you see us both Communing in Church, and after Services, people ask you about us. What do you say to them if you must tell the truth? You say that we are not married but live together and have a child, and this spreads through the congregation and reaches the Priest. The following Sunday we arrive at Church and are refused Communion, and the Priest asks us to see him after Church. At the meeting we explain that she is my recently widowed sister and nephew who have moved in with me because she could not afford her rent. My sister, myself and my nephew were understood aa one thing and then understood as another. We as persons have not changed, but your understanding and of our personhood and relationship to us have changed- or as we say in common parlance: we are different people to what you thought we were.

THIS is post of the MONTH 2011 May..... you see many paragraphs??? aww shame you wont have read it.... its a blinder...rli great post as well.

I didn't read it. My eyes get enough work parsing difficult text. After it was nominated as PotM, I put a note to go through when I have time.
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« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2011, 05:31:21 AM »

Quote
I didn't read it. My eyes get enough work parsing difficult text. After it was nominated as PotM, I put a note to go through when I have time.
well as long as Seafra reads mine i dont care if you do or not.... like YOU are anyone special that i would be gutted that you didnt read it??? haha.... plenty of other ppl will.....jog on
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« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2011, 05:36:41 AM »

Quote
I didn't read it. My eyes get enough work parsing difficult text. After it was nominated as PotM, I put a note to go through when I have time.
well as long as Seafra reads mine i dont care if you do or not.... like YOU are anyone special that i would be gutted that you didnt read it??? haha.... plenty of other ppl will.....jog on

Also using proper American English would help as well.

Thanks.
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« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2011, 06:37:09 AM »

Quote
I didn't read it. My eyes get enough work parsing difficult text. After it was nominated as PotM, I put a note to go through when I have time.
well as long as Seafra reads mine i dont care if you do or not.... like YOU are anyone special that i would be gutted that you didnt read it??? haha.... plenty of other ppl will.....jog on

Also using proper American English would help as well.

Thanks.

Im ENGLISH.... and even when my English is at its BEST i still have dyslexia so it's hard to get everything so correct that YOU would find it acceptable. So.... stop looking down your snottyass nose at me with your superior comments and FO back to the people you feel comfortable with you patronising supercillious mysogynistic knob!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

there you go....a bit of everything in there huh??? Just for you
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« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2011, 06:49:10 AM »

Quote
Quote from: Poppy on Today at 12:25:32 AM
crikey

I believe OC.net has rules governing the use offensive language. In the future please keep such words to yourself as they drive me to the edge of insanity.

Thanks.

Oh and BTW... you pick me up on the word "crikey" when you use the word "crap" ? ? ? Not to mention the ....um....proper American English i have underlined and emboldened for your attention. haha...

Quote
orthonorm..."Kids like crap to buy. "Christian" kids ain't no different."

So does OC.net have rules about your offensive attitude as well as my language???

Yeah..... bit of a hypocrite huh.
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« Reply #38 on: June 09, 2011, 08:30:40 AM »

so how can one be taught the fear of the lord?
Place your hand inside a fire then learn to respect the fire.
Our God is a Fire.
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« Reply #39 on: June 09, 2011, 09:13:34 AM »

"...but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God".... Hebrews 10:27

"For our God [is] a consuming fire".... Hebrews 12:29

"To the Israelites the glory of the LORD looked like a consuming fire on top of the mountain".... Exodus 24:17

"For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God".... Deuteronomy 4:24

"But be assured today that the LORD your God is the one who goes across ahead of you like a devouring fire. He will destroy them; he will subdue them before you. And you will drive them out and annihilate them quickly, as the LORD has promised you"....Deuteronomy 9:23

"Smoke rose from his nostrils; consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals blazed out of it"..... 2 Samuel 22:9

"Fire goes before him and consumes his foes on every side".... Psalm 93:3

"The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless: "Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?".... Isaiah 33:14

and this one which doesn't fit with what the ozgeorge said but it gives me the heebees...
"It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God"..... Hebrews 10:31
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« Reply #40 on: June 09, 2011, 11:17:50 AM »

i know all the verses i used to read hebrews over and over in hopes it would strike something but it doesn't. and poppy your statements are about as productive as my protestant upbringing... im fully aware of the fire brimstone stuff i even taught it before but it doesn't instill fear in me. I guess more prayer is all i can do...
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« Reply #41 on: June 09, 2011, 12:12:58 PM »

Again my point about lack of the so-called British sense of humor.

 Wink
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« Reply #42 on: June 09, 2011, 01:20:49 PM »

Again my point about lack of the so-called British sense of humor.

 Wink

NO WAY Mr .... im not letting you get away with that. At NO point through your antagonistic posts to me was there even a HINT of a smiley a winky or any indication that you was being humourous so don't even insult me by trying to claim you was only joking now that you been called on it.
You can apolagise or you can remain a spineless hypocrite who cant even say sorry when hes got in someones face (figeratively speaking) when it was CLEAR to you that you had been offensive early on in this little exchange. DONT take me for a idiot.... i might not be as educated as you are but when i know i have needlessly (accidently or on purpose) insulted someone..... i am quick to say sorry if they call me on it.

GEEZ what IS it with religious ppl and there inability to JUST APOLAGISE!!!!!!!
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« Reply #43 on: June 09, 2011, 01:23:30 PM »

guys id appreciate it if you could respect me enough and those others here who have expressed difficulty with the topic by remaining on topic and not arguing on the forum PM's are great for that Cheesy
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« Reply #44 on: June 09, 2011, 01:26:12 PM »

Your right, im sorry Seafra
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« Reply #45 on: June 10, 2011, 10:44:54 AM »

I feel bad so i am finding a whole bunch of quotes and other info for you that is from your own faith. The third one down is rli good!!

"Fear of God is of two kinds. The first is generated in us by the threat of punishment. It is through such fear that we develop in due order self-control, patience, hope in God and dispassion; and it is from dispassion that love comes. The second kind of fear is linked with love and constantly produces reverence in the soul, so that it does not grow indifferent to God because of the intimate communion of its love. "The first kind of fear is expelled by perfect love when the soul has acquired this and is no longer afraid of punishment (cf. I John 4:18). The second kind, as we have already said, is always found united with perfect love. The first kind of fear is referred to in the following two verse: 'Out of fear of the Lord men shun evil' (Prov. 16:6), and 'Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom' (Ps. 111:10). The second kind is mentioned in the following verses: 'Fear of the Lord is pure, and endures forever' (Ps. 19:9. LXX), and 'Those who fear the Lord will not want for anything' (Ps. 34:10. LXX). St. Maximos the Confessor (First Century on Love nos. 81-82)
__________________________________________________________

Q: Pray that I might place a beginning to salvation.

A: The beginning is humility and the fear of God: “The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom” (Proverbs 1:7). And what is the beginning of wisdom, if it is not to remove oneself from everything hateful to God? And how does one remove oneself from this? Do nothing without questioning and counsel; likewise, say nothing unfitting, and at the same time acknowledge oneself to be senseless, unsalted, and degraded, and in general insignificant. “Saints Barsanuphius and John: Guidance Toward Spiritual Life,” trans. by Fr. Seraphim Rose, (Platina, California: St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 1990)

___________________________________________________________

The Fathers tell us that a man gains possession of the fear of God by keeping the thought of death before his mind and remembering eternal punishment, by examining himself each evening about how he has passed the day and each morning about how he has passed the night; by never giving rein to his tongue and by keeping in close and continual touch with a man possessed of the fear of God, as his spiritual director. St. Dorotheos and Gaza, Discourses & Sayings

___________________________________________________________

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« Reply #46 on: June 10, 2011, 10:45:50 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI363U3uPN0

Thats a video Elder Cleopa speaking on the fear of God

his point is "death" lolOl he shouts it ALLOT!!!
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« Reply #47 on: June 10, 2011, 11:45:55 AM »

hah thanks...
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« Reply #48 on: June 10, 2011, 01:42:45 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Fear is a primal relationship with God, but Christianity seeks to expand beyond this instinct.

Under the Law, we had good reason to FEAR God. However, through Jesus Christ, there is literally nothing to be afraid of.  God seeks a relationship built upon trust, love, and understanding.  In all honesty, there is simply no room for fear in love.  Fear is a primal human instinct, it is the basis for anger, grief, sadness, hostility, wrath, depression, etc etc

Do any of those sound like healthy expressions of worship?  Fear is the very opposite of Faith.  When humans are afraid, they have no faith.  They are afraid of the unknown.  True, the Divine Godhead was previously unknowable, and hence the natural fear of God in humans,  however Jesus Christ is a PERSON, and God is accessible now through the Incarnation.  We no longer have to fear God, because instead we can know and love God.  We only fear what we do not know.  If we fear God we don't know Him, and that is something fearful indeed.

You already mentioned what is needed, prayer.  Pray to God to develop His relationship with you, that you might no longer think anything of fear at all.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #49 on: June 10, 2011, 02:56:37 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Fear is a primal relationship with God, but Christianity seeks to expand beyond this instinct.

Under the Law, we had good reason to FEAR God. However, through Jesus Christ, there is literally nothing to be afraid of.  God seeks a relationship built upon trust, love, and understanding.  In all honesty, there is simply no room for fear in love.  Fear is a primal human instinct, it is the basis for anger, grief, sadness, hostility, wrath, depression, etc etc

Do any of those sound like healthy expressions of worship?  Fear is the very opposite of Faith.  When humans are afraid, they have no faith.  They are afraid of the unknown.  True, the Divine Godhead was previously unknowable, and hence the natural fear of God in humans,  however Jesus Christ is a PERSON, and God is accessible now through the Incarnation.  We no longer have to fear God, because instead we can know and love God.  We only fear what we do not know.  If we fear God we don't know Him, and that is something fearful indeed.

You already mentioned what is needed, prayer.  Pray to God to develop His relationship with you, that you might no longer think anything of fear at all.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
that sounds extremely evangelical lol (no offense). Thank you for your input however i see fear being just as necessary now as under the old covenant and it has its place in context of love. not to mention you just professed that the words of God are no longer applicable and if God is unchanging then i see how that can apply. I believe the fear of God is that of the HEALTHY fear of a father. as a child you would not dare slap your mother, why? for fear of your father. its not that you dont love him nor  he love you but you intentionally violated him. it is fear that will prevent you from going against him love will draw you near to him and fear will help keep you there... as the proverbs say a man who fears God despises sin...
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« Reply #50 on: June 10, 2011, 03:03:38 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Fear is a primal relationship with God, but Christianity seeks to expand beyond this instinct.

Under the Law, we had good reason to FEAR God. However, through Jesus Christ, there is literally nothing to be afraid of.  God seeks a relationship built upon trust, love, and understanding.  In all honesty, there is simply no room for fear in love.  Fear is a primal human instinct, it is the basis for anger, grief, sadness, hostility, wrath, depression, etc etc

Do any of those sound like healthy expressions of worship?  Fear is the very opposite of Faith.  When humans are afraid, they have no faith.  They are afraid of the unknown.  True, the Divine Godhead was previously unknowable, and hence the natural fear of God in humans,  however Jesus Christ is a PERSON, and God is accessible now through the Incarnation.  We no longer have to fear God, because instead we can know and love God.  We only fear what we do not know.  If we fear God we don't know Him, and that is something fearful indeed.

You already mentioned what is needed, prayer.  Pray to God to develop His relationship with you, that you might no longer think anything of fear at all.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
that sounds extremely evangelical lol (no offense). Thank you for your input however i see fear being just as necessary now as under the old covenant and it has its place in context of love. not to mention you just professed that the words of God are no longer applicable and if God is unchanging then i see how that can apply. I believe the fear of God is that of the HEALTHY fear of a father. as a child you would not dare slap your mother, why? for fear of your father. its not that you dont love him nor  he love you but you intentionally violated him. it is fear that will prevent you from going against him love will draw you near to him and fear will help keep you there... as the proverbs say a man who fears God despises sin...

In the Orthodox we do not venerate the Old Testament as Gospel, that is to say,we are under no obligations to follow the commandments there word for word, this the Fathers have taught us over the thousands of years of our Faith.  You shouldn't fear your earthly fathers either, fear is not love.  Fear is compulsive, it is retribution oriented, its tit-for-tat, essentially it is the Law.  But we know that we cannot be saved by the Law, nor by any of our own efforts, including fear.  Only a deep LOVE from our hearts can bring us to God, and then we must allow Him to do the rest. You can not honestly love what you fear, fear only builds inevitable resentment and eventual rebellion, its an instinctive human reaction to fear.  It is because of fear that Adam and Eve were evicted from the Garden, but its because of the Love of Christ that we are invited back through the Holy Communion.  Again, pray about the matter, I can't explain something as mystical as love, its beyond description of words, rather is a literal matter of the heart.

read this book to see what I am talking about, but love is the only Orthodoxy, and fear is for animals.  


"No longer do I term you slaves, but friends."  Jesus Christ

Stay Blessed,
Habte Selassie
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« Reply #51 on: June 10, 2011, 03:17:04 PM »

okaay then NT verses...

1Pe 2:17* Honor all men; love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.
Mt 10:28* "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Lu 12:5* But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Ac 9:31* Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.
2Co 5:11* Therefore knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences.
Eph 5:21* Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Eph 6:5* Servants, be obedient to them that are [your] masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
Php 2:12* Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Col 3:22* Servants, obey in all things [your] masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:
Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
1Pe 1:17* And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:
2Co 7:1* Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

I dare not say you are wrong but if Fear of God is not orthodox how do you explain the apostles command to fear the lord?

*edit* i also see you are Ethiopian Orthodox and i have not studied thier Liturgy however in Greek and i think Coptic the Priest says "With the fear of God, faith and love draw near."
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« Reply #52 on: June 10, 2011, 04:23:16 PM »

Again I bring both of your attention to the quotations from St. Anthony above.

It is paradoxical.

Often nothing is more fearful than being loved.

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« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2012, 03:38:36 AM »

Le bump


What are you afraid of when you have fear of the Lord?
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« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2012, 05:29:21 AM »

my understanding (from protestant POV) is it s as a fear a child has of their father, not one of a terror fear but one of part respect part "i dont want to get on His bad side"Wink The thought that comes to mind to me is one who has the fear of the lord is actually drawn away from sin motivated by the fear of God...
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« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2012, 12:16:40 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

יָרֵא  Yare in Hebrew:



The Old Testament concept of the Fear of God is in the connotation of standing in awe, or being moved by reverence.  It can be interpreted as a primal fear as this Hebrew word is also used this way in the Scriptures, but in the context of the references to the fear of God, it seem to imply reverence rather than simply fear.

This concept is even more elaborated in the New Testament Greek

φόβος phobeo


While phobia is a term we are familiar with, the emphasis by the New Testament writers is the having been put to flight by fear and awe, which is what the fear of God is meant to do.  It is not so much that it stops or paralyzes us with fear as in primal or instinctive fear, rather this fear is what pushes us to action.  The emphasis then is not so much on the fear as the active, internal response.

The Father seem to emphasize the reverence aspect of fear rather then simply the terrifying aspect.

When we take "fear" in its the context of the entirety of the Scriptures, we better understand the meaning, and since we hear "Fear not" as often as "be afraid" then I think we can see the balance.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #56 on: January 20, 2012, 09:27:05 PM »

A "Fear of God" just strikes me as counter the main Orthodox selling pitch (relationship of love; sin is broken relationship not legalistic). To be motivated by fear doesn't follow that line as much as fear of not following a Divine Law with a supreme judge.
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« Reply #57 on: January 20, 2012, 09:36:12 PM »

how about this, a child who loves his father would not dare strike his mother for fear of his father. that same child would essentially have no fear striking some random lady with whom there is no relation.

I know its not the best example but the dynamics are true. fear does not have to conflict with love, and i agree as you mature in God love and zeal will overpower your fear, but as the scriptures say fear is the beginning of wisdom. one who is mature in the Lord may not have the same sense of fear as someone not so mature, it may develop eventually into a reverence as most interpret today, however i will remind the wisdom of the Desert Fathers and their insistence of "keeping death before your eyes" in a constant fear of judgement they worked through their sin.
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