OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 27, 2014, 11:32:51 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Battle Royale  (Read 15096 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,444


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2004, 08:09:44 PM »

Tom,

In that case when should we start beating you up? lol j/k

Seriously, though, that was the culture back then.  Violence in our day and age has no place, and we conduct ourselves in a more somber manner.  Sobriety is a value that is respected in Christians.

The Fathers may have been right doctrinally but is it perhaps conceivable that they pushed some people away by their rough style?  I would say, "it's conceivable." Not all of the Fathers acted that way anyway.  So it seems to me to be a cultural thing.

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodo
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2004, 08:10:46 PM »

"Face it, you just don't like what I have to say."

Why does it have to always been about what your opponents "like", Linus?  Sometimes people don't agree with your reasoning.

anastasios

Fine.

But that's not what they say.

Instead they talk about my "tone" or accuse me of "racism" (which was absolutely silly).

Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,797


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2004, 08:13:03 PM »

Yes. Sorry.

Heresies against the Faith must be stopped at any cost.

Wow, even the use of violence is permissable?  Sounds like the Inquisition is to me.  But I'm down.  Let me get my boxing gloves out of the garage, and let us all agree to abide by the Queensbury rules.  Are we using headgear, or just cups & mouthpieces?   Grin
Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,444


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2004, 08:13:03 PM »

Linus,

More than one person wondered why you brought up that man's ethnicity, so it wasn't silly for the concern to exist.  However, I did give you the opportunity to clarify your position before I rushed to judgement, for what it is worth.  I am not sure if you responded publicly as I was out of town, but one of your supporters private messaged me in your favor and I found his explanation that you allegedly gave to him to be satisfactory which is why we did not pursue this.

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodo
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2004, 08:13:38 PM »

Hi Linus,

I can always tell when you are in attack mode because instead of paragraphs you write short sentences with spaces in between Wink

anastasios

I don't think I have attacked anyone.

I would say I have been in "defense mode" all evening.

I like spaces between my sentences because I don't like reading the densely-organized posts of others. I try to make reading my posts easy.
Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2004, 08:15:55 PM »

Linus,

More than one person wondered why you brought up that man's ethnicity, so it wasn't silly for the concern to exist.  However, I did give you the opportunity to clarify your position before I rushed to judgement, for what it is worth.  I am not sure if you responded publicly as I was out of town, but one of your supporters private messaged me in your favor and I found his explanation that you allegedly gave to him to be satisfactory which is why we did not pursue this.

anastasios

I am amazed that there was ever any concern.

How is referring to a person as "a man from the Caribbean" suspect?

I think some people (not you, obviously) would sink to almost anything to try to get rid of me.

You may find that paranoid, but I can think of no other way to explain such silliness.
Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,797


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2004, 08:17:00 PM »

Anastasios,

Since you're here, and since this thread was originally about the state of the fourm, how close are you guys to a solution?
Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2004, 08:26:32 PM »

Seriously, though, that was the culture back then.  Violence in our day and age has no place, and we conduct ourselves in a more somber manner.  Sobriety is a value that is respected in Christians.

The Fathers may have been right doctrinally but is it perhaps conceivable that they pushed some people away by their rough style?  I would say, "it's conceivable." Not all of the Fathers acted that way anyway.  So it seems to me to be a cultural thing.

It's things like this that confuse me.

If God is never changing and the Holy Spirit was guiding the Church and the Holy Fathers - then why did these violent things occur? Why was it accepted back then yet not now? Has God and the Holy Spirit changed his way of doing things of handling those whe attack the Church?  

Did Constantine REALLY have a vision of Christ telling him to put the CROSS of emblem? How can this be true?

Curiouser and curiouser.


Logged
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2004, 08:28:46 PM »

 Are we using headgear, or just cups & mouthpieces?   Grin

No cups -- I have not found one big enough yet  Grin

Make Love Not War, Dude!
« Last Edit: June 17, 2004, 08:32:35 PM by Tom+ú » Logged
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,411


« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2004, 08:34:40 PM »

It's things like this that confuse me.

If God is never changing and the Holy Spirit was guiding the Church and the Holy Fathers - then why did these violent things occur? Why was it accepted back then yet not now? Has God and the Holy Spirit changed his way of doing things of handling those whe attack the Church?  

Did Constantine REALLY have a vision of Christ telling him to put the CROSS of emblem? How can this be true?

Curiouser and curiouser.




Tom,
For example, IIRC, I think St. Nick was deposed or punished somehow after he punched Arius out.  It's the old easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.  St. Nick wasn't lauded for the violence, but the stance on the issue.
Logged
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,797


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2004, 08:38:54 PM »

No cups...

Just hearing that makes me cringe.  You must never have been in a boxing ring.  I'd give up my mouthpiece before I'd give up my cup!  Teeth can be capped. Grin

Make Love Not War, Dude!

Wait a minute, aren't you the guy who was calling for church-sanctioned violence against the heretics?   Huh  But seriously, boxing isn't "war", its just a sport like any other.  More people get hurt playing football than boxing.  I box all the time, and I'd NEVER play tackle football.
Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2004, 08:50:14 PM »

a minute, aren't you the guy who was calling for church-sanctioned violence against the heretics?   Huh  

Not really. I was speaking from an historical perspective. Personally, what anyone else chooses to believe is their business.

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!" (Probably way before your time)
Logged
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #57 on: June 17, 2004, 09:00:51 PM »

Who besides me remembers when this was the deadest forum (the one with the least activity) on this web site?

The thing seemed not to move for months at a time.

I can remember Anastasios practically begging people to post here.

Things sure have changed.

Perhaps the coming policy changes will restore peace only by eliminating the controversy that has made this forum more active.

The effect may be the return of this forum to what it was before.
Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #58 on: June 17, 2004, 09:01:59 PM »

The effect may be the return of this forum to what it was before.

(yawn)
Logged
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,797


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #59 on: June 17, 2004, 09:02:08 PM »


"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!" (Probably way before your time)


Ah, Barry Goldwater.  A little before my time, but in addition to boxing, I also read sometimes.  I like to think of myself as something of a "Renaissance man".  And an internet geek!  Time to get power down now.  My eyes hurt.  'Night all!
Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,444


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #60 on: June 17, 2004, 09:39:34 PM »

Anastasios,

Since you're here, and since this thread was originally about the state of the fourm, how close are you guys to a solution?

We are discussing this behind the scenes every day. Each option has some unfortunate consequences, so we are taking our time to make sure we come up with the right solution.

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodo
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,444


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #61 on: June 17, 2004, 09:41:12 PM »

Linus,

So are you saying I got my wish? Wink LOL

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodo
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,411


« Reply #62 on: June 18, 2004, 02:41:48 AM »

Well I guess all the Orthodox leaders (at least in the US) have sucumbed to Ecumenism while Linus alone holds fast to the Orthodox faith.  It sounds like you are the biggest candidate here for ROAC.  

No, I don't assume so - I know so that the rites and praxis are similar.  And I have followed the threads enough to know that you just refuse to even try and look at the issues w/o bias and with any sort of an open mind or charity.

I think everyone here, and most especially Linus could do with a good dose of Fr. Seraphim Rose.  I'm no disciple - I just appreciate his love for everyone.  To quote him, "I myself fear the cold hearts of the "intellectually correct" far more than any errors you might find (in Augustine).  I sense in these hearts a preparation for the work of the Antichrist (whose imitation of Christ must also extend to
"correct theology".  I feel in Augustine the love of Christ."  (from a letter of his in 1981)
Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #63 on: June 18, 2004, 04:05:07 AM »

Way to go, Elisha. Just keep going after Linus7.
Sorry I was working yesterday while he was he was mugged here for holding views not popular but more prevalent than you might think.
The ideas being imparted in one seminary or jurisdiction do not necessarily follow at others - for sure they do not.
Who are you to give sanctimonious pastoral advice to Linus, me, or anyone else?
Demetri
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,797


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #64 on: June 18, 2004, 07:50:58 AM »


Who are you to give sanctimonious pastoral advice to Linus, me, or anyone else?
Demetri


In fairness to Elisha, I've received some "sanctimonius pastoral advice" from the other side as well, and more than once at that.

Oh, and Anastasios, thanks for the reply.  Hope you guys are able to reach a consensus soon.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2004, 07:53:45 AM by Antonious Nikolas » Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #65 on: June 18, 2004, 09:39:19 AM »

AntoniousNikolas,

Nothing wrong with being fair.

Demetri
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #66 on: June 18, 2004, 10:10:20 AM »

Quote
Elisha:
Well I guess all the Orthodox leaders (at least in the US) have sucumbed to Ecumenism while Linus alone holds fast to the Orthodox faith.  It sounds like you are the biggest candidate here for ROAC.

Make up your mind, please!

Am I a Sola Scriptura Protestant or a ROAC fanatic?  Grin

Who said "all the Orthodox leaders (at least in the US) have succumbed to Ecumenism?"

Some of them may have. Others have not.

But even if a majority of them do succumb to ecumenism, that will not alter the truth, will not rewrite what the Fathers wrote or undecree what the ecumenical councils decreed.  

Quote
Elisha: No, I don't assume so - I know so that the rites and praxis are similar.  And I have followed the threads enough to know that you just refuse to even try and look at the issues w/o bias and with any sort of an open mind or charity.

And I know you have long held some sort of personal dislike for me that colors your perception. You have displayed it often enough in other contexts and long before this present discussion began.

You would have to remove the bias in your own eye before you could begin to see the bias in mine.

Quote
Elisha: I think everyone here, and most especially Linus could do with a good dose of Fr. Seraphim Rose.  I'm no disciple - I just appreciate his love for everyone.  To quote him, "I myself fear the cold hearts of the "intellectually correct" far more than any errors you might find (in Augustine).  I sense in these hearts a preparation for the work of the Antichrist (whose imitation of Christ must also extend to
"correct theology".  I feel in Augustine the love of Christ."  (from a letter of his in 1981)

I think you are taking Fr. Seraphim's words out of context to support something he would not have supported.

Are you saying he endorsed compromise with the Non-Chalcedonians or that he viewed loyalty to the Fathers and their councils as hyper-correctness?

I've read enough Seraphim Rose to know that is not the case.

As for "preparation for the work of Antichrist," what is that if not dialogues sponsored by the WCC, a blurring of the lines between old heresies and Orthodoxy, a denial of the words of the Fathers?

We are not talking about hyper-correctness in liturgical nuances or the rules of fasting here.

We are talking about the solemn, Holy Spirit-inspired decrees of the ecumenical councils and the consensus of the Orthodox Fathers.

Without them, the very foundation of Orthodoxy is destroyed.

Contradict them to "make friends," and there will be no Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2004, 10:12:01 AM by Linus7 » Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
mourad
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 49


Mia, not mono!


« Reply #67 on: June 18, 2004, 10:22:25 AM »

Linus7,

as a matter of fact, however, inasmuch as Fr. Seraphim was, and in a good sense, 'hyper-orthodox' why did he never write regarding the unoffical meetings held by the joint commission?

Another thing you gotta keep in mind is the fact that when it comes to WCC, many many Overseers and priests do keep away since Theology seems secondary there. But when you read the minutes of the unoffcial and official dialogues, somehting beautiful is there, THEOLOGY is discussed in an atmosphere i am sure most of us would have liked to see all ecumenical councils discussed in. Please remember, i am a person totally unwilling to compromise truth. I know what monophysitism is, and i know i am not a monophysite (not just on the Eutychian level) but on all levels.

Praying that you be praying for me,
in Christ's Love,
mourad
Logged
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #68 on: June 18, 2004, 10:40:40 AM »

Quote
mourad:
Linus7,

as a matter of fact, however, inasmuch as Fr. Seraphim was, and in a good sense, 'hyper-orthodox' why did he never write regarding the unoffical meetings held by the joint commission?

I do not know that he did not write about them.

I have not read everything written by Fr. Seraphim.

Arguments from silence are a bit weak, though, mourad.

One could ask why Fr. Seraphim never wrote about the problem of auto theft in Miami.

Perhaps he thought it was okay then?

Quote
mourad: Another thing you gotta keep in mind is the fact that when it comes to WCC, many many Overseers and priests do keep away since Theology seems secondary there. But when you read the minutes of the unoffcial and official dialogues, somehting beautiful is there, THEOLOGY is discussed in an atmosphere i am sure most of us would have liked to see all ecumenical councils discussed in. Please remember, i am a person totally unwilling to compromise truth. I know what monophysitism is, and i know i am not a monophysite (not just on the Eutychian level) but on all levels.

Praying that you be praying for me,
in Christ's Love,
mourad

I don't want to argue about whether or not you are a Monophysite; obviously, in your own view you are not.

But I don't see anything beautiful in participation in the WCC or NCC.
Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
mourad
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 49


Mia, not mono!


« Reply #69 on: June 18, 2004, 12:44:51 PM »

That's just my point, the joint comission dialogue has nothing to do with WCC.

As for the arguing out of silence regarding the Fr. Seraphim issue: you got a solid point there, i can't argue.

However, one would think that someone so involved in writting about all the theological issues and trends of his tim, Fr. Seraphim would have at least touch a bit on the issue of the OO / EO dialogues, especially when he wrote TONS about ecumenism, always about RC / EO issues though, not the other way around... let me know what you think,

yours in Love,
mourad
Logged
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,411


« Reply #70 on: June 18, 2004, 12:45:20 PM »

Way to go, Elisha. Just keep going after Linus7.
Sorry I was working yesterday while he was he was mugged here for holding views not popular but more prevalent than you might think.
The ideas being imparted in one seminary or jurisdiction do not necessarily follow at others - for sure they do not.
Who are you to give sanctimonious pastoral advice to Linus, me, or anyone else?
Demetri

Demetri,
If Linus wouldn't:  keep posting in a tone as if his opinion is that of all EOxy and he alone interprets the Fathers correctly, continually misrepresent what the other person is saying and most importantly, doing all of this in such a haughty tone, I wouldn't keep "going after" Linus.  Nevermind the fact that he has twice as many posts as the next non admin.  He's almost (especially of late) as bad as romanbyzantium!  If several people have told someone that what they wrote was inflammatory and/or rude - the it is!  The problem is with the person who wrote what was perceived as inflammatory/rude.
Logged
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #71 on: June 18, 2004, 03:17:48 PM »

Who besides me remembers when this was the deadest forum (the one with the least activity) on this web site?

The thing seemed not to move for months at a time.

Sounds like the Discusi+¦n en espa+¦ol forum now.  Wink Sad
Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #72 on: June 18, 2004, 03:20:27 PM »

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!" (Probably way before your time)

Hey, now, sir!  Just because we're young-ins doesn't mean we don't read!
Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #73 on: June 18, 2004, 03:33:54 PM »

The Fathers may have been right doctrinally but is it perhaps conceivable that they pushed some people away by their rough style?  I would say, "it's conceivable." Not all of the Fathers acted that way anyway.  So it seems to me to be a cultural thing.

Good call, hermano.  The Fathers were right doctrinally -- this was the Holy Spirit moving through the Church -- yet not right in their treatment of their fellow man -- which would be, IMO, the Holy Spirit working in spite of the Church.

We're promised doctrinal integrity through the safeguard of the HS; the fact that we sometimes act like burros to each other is not something the HS is responsible for, nor is it something that should be lauded, upheld, or repeated.

I must say, Linus7 -- your defense of the preferring of Chalcedonian terminology is wonderful, even though I personally think that the OO ultimately believe and are making an honest attempt at saying the same thing, imprecise terminology aside.  I must agree, however, that your tone is unnecessarily alienating.  From one Chalcedonian to another: it's your tone folks object to, not your message.

Que Dios Nos Bendiga,

Pedro.
Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #74 on: June 20, 2004, 03:06:09 PM »

Frankly, Pedro, I don't see anything wrong with my tone.

It is direct, blunt, and to the point.

I never engage in the sorts of personal attacks that have been used against me.

The real problem is that I will not say the sorts of things so many seem to want me to say out of the sort of pseudo-politeness which is the mask of unacceptable compromise.

I do not think the Non-Chalcedonians mean the same things we mean but with different terminology.

If they do, then the Orthodox Fathers were mistaken, the councils from Chalcedon onward were lies, and the Orthodox Church is not the Church.

If the Non-Chalcedonians are Orthodox, then the ecumenical councils are optional and Orthodoxy is divided like Protestantism into denominations, each of which has an equal claim to the title, "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church."

If the Church is actually divided into "branches" or "church families" (the last term has been used in the NC-EO dialogues), then perhaps the Protestants are right and no one can really tell what, who, or where the true Church is.

Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #75 on: June 20, 2004, 03:18:01 PM »

Demetri,
If Linus wouldn't:  keep posting in a tone as if his opinion is that of all EOxy and he alone interprets the Fathers correctly, continually misrepresent what the other person is saying and most importantly, doing all of this in such a haughty tone, I wouldn't keep "going after" Linus.  Nevermind the fact that he has twice as many posts as the next non admin.  He's almost (especially of late) as bad as romanbyzantium!  If several people have told someone that what they wrote was inflammatory and/or rude - the it is!  The problem is with the person who wrote what was perceived as inflammatory/rude.

"Rude" is in the eye of the beholder.

Frankly, I have found many of your posts rude.

For example, there is the following unjustified and unsupported remark you made about me:

Quote
Elisha: It sounds like you are the biggest candidate here for ROAC.

And then there is this response to one of my posts:

Quote
Elisha: Get over it.  He never implied anything of the sort.  You are the one who is always on the attack and always with haughty, negative tone.  It amazes me how everyone but you realizes it.

You have posted in a similar style - with intro statements very much in the same vein as "Get over it" - in other threads and in response to persons other than I.

Perhaps you would do well to take some of your own advice before giving it out to others.


Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,444


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #76 on: June 20, 2004, 03:22:41 PM »

Linus,

Your assessment of the situation is as blunt as your tone.  And I don't see the virtue in being blunt with fellow Christians of good will.  If you were not blunt you would not feel yourself under constant attack.  I myself hate being under attack or being on the attack and do everything possible to avoid it by being very polite and respectful.  Sometimes we all fall short but we shouldn't avoid trying to be gentle.  I just don't see how you enjoy posting on this forum, because you always seem agitated.  You also made a false dichotomy between being polite and being truthful, it appears to me, when you talk about pseudo-politeness. One of my favorite authors, Bishop Auxentios of Photiki (True Orthodox Church of Greece) is uncompromising but exceptionally polite and always trying to reach out to the Non-Eastern Orthodox in a way that is loving, in the manner of Christ.

Thankfully, though, it's not an either/or situation as you have presented it.  That's why there is an ongoing dialogue between the two families of Orthodox. Have you read any of the proceedings, which hierarchs of your own Church have signed on to?

Why are you even a member of the Ecumenical patriarchate when you hold such views? I would think you would be happier in the end in one of the Greek Old Calendar Churches.  But that's your business I guess.  Still, I wonder what your reasoning is.

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodo
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #77 on: June 20, 2004, 03:30:01 PM »

It is interesting that those who are most vocal in condemning my "tone" and accusing me of impoliteness are those who disagree with me to one degree or another.

I do not see anything wrong with talking to other Christians, although I do not believe any group condemned and anathematized by the Orthodox fathers and councils can be considered as Orthodox. The only "Orthodox families" are those that accept the fullness of the Orthodox faith.

I don't think I have been impolite.

Regarding the whole jurisdiction issue: in whose jurisdiction did St. Maximus the Confessor find himself?

I am not equating myself with or comparing myself to St. Maximus, but he certainly opposed the Monophysites and the Monothelite compromisers despite his being under the successive patriarchates of Sergius, Pyrrhus, and Paul at Constantinople.

Oh, by the way, I don't get "agitated." That is probably part of what irritates some people here about my posts.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2004, 03:51:44 PM by Linus7 » Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,444


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #78 on: June 20, 2004, 04:43:01 PM »

Linus,

It's true that St Maximus was alone.  But so were the heretics such as Nestorius, who thought that he alone was right.  Playing the isolation game is a very precarious game to play.  That's why God gave us bishops who are usually right.  Not always, but usually.  We laypeople need shepherds to guide us.

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodo
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #79 on: June 20, 2004, 07:21:04 PM »

Linus,

<...snipped....>

Why are you even a member of the Ecumenical patriarchate when you hold such views? I would think you would be happier in the end in one of the Greek Old Calendar Churches.  But that's your business I guess.  Still, I wonder what your reasoning is.

anastasios

I am sorry, anastasios, but you confuse me here. When did the OEcumenical Patriarch alter his statement that ALL Seven Councils are a requirement for re-union?

Demetri
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,444


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #80 on: June 20, 2004, 09:00:58 PM »

Demetri,

Read the agreed statement at Chambesy and see what would appear to some to be a waffling on the issue.

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodo
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #81 on: June 20, 2004, 11:34:30 PM »

Linus,

It's true that St Maximus was alone.  But so were the heretics such as Nestorius, who thought that he alone was right.  Playing the isolation game is a very precarious game to play.  That's why God gave us bishops who are usually right.  Not always, but usually.  We laypeople need shepherds to guide us.

anastasios

Nestorius ended up alone, but he had the support of Theodosius II at first.

And Nestorius was also Patriarch of Constantinople, was he not?

"Bishops are usually right" only when they are actually right, not merely by virtue of their positions as bishops.

Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Rustaveli
Constant In Opal... Ultramarine
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Eastern Church
Posts: 126


Saint Shota Rustaveli


« Reply #82 on: June 20, 2004, 11:39:20 PM »

Linus7,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I was wondering if you could explain this statement:

Personally, I think it is a mistake to let discussions of this sort spill over into forums like this one.


-½ Last Edit: Sun, June 13, 2004, 09:11:16 AM by Linus7 -+

... posted as a reponse to the thread I began under the hopeful title, "Nature, Will, and a Hope for Being Outrageously Agreeable..." -

and which I deliberately began in the (presumably) aptly named "Free-For-All" forum section?

[the guidelines state: "Free-For-All

This is where you can discuss hot topics that might degenerate... if you don't like polemics, you are advised not to read this forum."]


I'm a bit confused by your statement in that arena, given both the context and your defense of your own defenses ... Wink

P.S. - you-'uns might want to check out the 3rd and 4th pages of "Nature, Will, and a Hope for Being Outrageously Agreeable... (Faith / Theology)";

I'm not having any luck turning up more than one Will in St. Matthew's Gospel.
Logged
Ben
Unabashedly Pro-Life
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,260



« Reply #83 on: June 20, 2004, 11:45:07 PM »

I'm not having any luck turning up more than one Will in St. Matthew's Gospel.

Whoa!

I pray we are just using different terminology.

If you honestly believe that Christ only has one will, and that this is clear in scripture, then you are embracing a heresy. I am not attacking you, but saying Christ only has one will is pure heresy.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2004, 11:46:01 PM by Ben » Logged

"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #84 on: June 20, 2004, 11:53:33 PM »

Rustaveli -

I made that statement because I was hoping we could limit the EO-NC conflict to one forum and not let it expand into several others, that's all.

Regarding the two wills of our Lord, how do you interpret Christ's words in Matthew 26:39:

". . . not as I will, but as You will" ?

He asked that, if possible, the cup of suffering pass from Him, but then freely submitted His own human will to the will of the Father.

If our Lord Jesus Christ had but one will - the divine will - such a prayer would make no sense.

Likewise, if the will comes from the person and not the natures, then there are three separate wills in the Holy Trinity.

You might want to read the Disputation With Pyrrhus of St. Maximus the Confessor. A copy in English can be had here.
Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Rustaveli
Constant In Opal... Ultramarine
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Eastern Church
Posts: 126


Saint Shota Rustaveli


« Reply #85 on: June 20, 2004, 11:54:30 PM »

... well, I never was quite sure what the Scriptural reference to "Will" with regard to Father and Son had to do with too much of anything;

I had only hoped to find where the seminal form of the Chalcedonian doctrine might be found in the NT...

cf. this post:

All of those verses which assert both the complete humanity and divinity of our Lord contain the teaching of Chalcedon in seminal form.

Of particular interest is Jesus' prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane on the night He was betrayed, in which He petitioned His Father, "Not as I will, but as You will" (Matt. 26:39).Naturally.
Logged
Ben
Unabashedly Pro-Life
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,260



« Reply #86 on: June 20, 2004, 11:57:56 PM »

Quote

If our Lord Jesus Christ had but one will - the divine will - such a prayer would make no sense.

Likewise, if the will comes from the person and not the natures, then there are three separate wills in the Holy Trinity.

I totally agree.....100%  Grin
Logged

"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint
Rustaveli
Constant In Opal... Ultramarine
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Eastern Church
Posts: 126


Saint Shota Rustaveli


« Reply #87 on: June 21, 2004, 12:05:47 AM »

Rustaveli -

I made that statement because I was hoping we could limit the EO-NC conflict to one forum and not let it expand into several others, that's all.

Regarding the two wills of our Lord, how do you interpret Christ's words in Matthew 26:39:

". . . not as I will, but as You will" ?

O.K., I can see that [limiting EO-OO virtual "fisticuffs"]... there's enough conflict in that arena without opening new doors!  Cool

I did make the unexpected discovery that the Greek text of St. Matthew 26:39 does not seem to contain the term for "Will" (Thelo, long final "o"; sorry that my font and diacritical marks are lacking from the computer I am using...) except for the fist initial mention (relating to the Father, cf. prior posts above)...

It still seems to me that a two-will definition can't be based on this text alone,  in translation. [nor a single one; I wouldn't suggest that, as it may derive from the sentence structure in koine Greek, or one of a thousand other variables...]

... but your exposition is most helpful; as also the recommendation of the "Pyrrhus" text -  

I'll look into it!

Thanks for sharing your knowledge & insights.

Not a Monothelite, just seeking understanding...,

Rustaveli
« Last Edit: June 21, 2004, 12:09:02 AM by Rustaveli » Logged
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #88 on: June 21, 2004, 12:15:49 AM »

Here's another bit of Scripture to ponder:

"I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me" (John 5:30).

Once again, that doesn't make much sense if our Lord Jesus has but a single, divine will.
Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Ben
Unabashedly Pro-Life
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,260



« Reply #89 on: June 21, 2004, 12:33:23 AM »

Amen Linus!
Logged

"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint
Tags: Chalcedon Chalcedon polemics cheval mort 
Pages: « 1 2 3 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.126 seconds with 71 queries.