Author Topic: Battle Royale  (Read 18041 times)

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Offline Anastasios

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2004, 08:09:44 PM »
Tom,

In that case when should we start beating you up? lol j/k

Seriously, though, that was the culture back then.  Violence in our day and age has no place, and we conduct ourselves in a more somber manner.  Sobriety is a value that is respected in Christians.

The Fathers may have been right doctrinally but is it perhaps conceivable that they pushed some people away by their rough style?  I would say, "it's conceivable." Not all of the Fathers acted that way anyway.  So it seems to me to be a cultural thing.

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Offline Linus7

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2004, 08:10:46 PM »
"Face it, you just don't like what I have to say."

Why does it have to always been about what your opponents "like", Linus?  Sometimes people don't agree with your reasoning.

anastasios

Fine.

But that's not what they say.

Instead they talk about my "tone" or accuse me of "racism" (which was absolutely silly).

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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2004, 08:13:03 PM »
Yes. Sorry.

Heresies against the Faith must be stopped at any cost.

Wow, even the use of violence is permissable?  Sounds like the Inquisition is to me.  But I'm down.  Let me get my boxing gloves out of the garage, and let us all agree to abide by the Queensbury rules.  Are we using headgear, or just cups & mouthpieces?   ;D
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline Anastasios

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2004, 08:13:03 PM »
Linus,

More than one person wondered why you brought up that man's ethnicity, so it wasn't silly for the concern to exist.  However, I did give you the opportunity to clarify your position before I rushed to judgement, for what it is worth.  I am not sure if you responded publicly as I was out of town, but one of your supporters private messaged me in your favor and I found his explanation that you allegedly gave to him to be satisfactory which is why we did not pursue this.

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Offline Linus7

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2004, 08:13:38 PM »
Hi Linus,

I can always tell when you are in attack mode because instead of paragraphs you write short sentences with spaces in between ;)

anastasios

I don't think I have attacked anyone.

I would say I have been in "defense mode" all evening.

I like spaces between my sentences because I don't like reading the densely-organized posts of others. I try to make reading my posts easy.
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Offline Linus7

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2004, 08:15:55 PM »
Linus,

More than one person wondered why you brought up that man's ethnicity, so it wasn't silly for the concern to exist.  However, I did give you the opportunity to clarify your position before I rushed to judgement, for what it is worth.  I am not sure if you responded publicly as I was out of town, but one of your supporters private messaged me in your favor and I found his explanation that you allegedly gave to him to be satisfactory which is why we did not pursue this.

anastasios

I am amazed that there was ever any concern.

How is referring to a person as "a man from the Caribbean" suspect?

I think some people (not you, obviously) would sink to almost anything to try to get rid of me.

You may find that paranoid, but I can think of no other way to explain such silliness.
The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2004, 08:17:00 PM »
Anastasios,

Since you're here, and since this thread was originally about the state of the fourm, how close are you guys to a solution?
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

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Offline TomS

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2004, 08:26:32 PM »
Seriously, though, that was the culture back then.  Violence in our day and age has no place, and we conduct ourselves in a more somber manner.  Sobriety is a value that is respected in Christians.

The Fathers may have been right doctrinally but is it perhaps conceivable that they pushed some people away by their rough style?  I would say, "it's conceivable." Not all of the Fathers acted that way anyway.  So it seems to me to be a cultural thing.

It's things like this that confuse me.

If God is never changing and the Holy Spirit was guiding the Church and the Holy Fathers - then why did these violent things occur? Why was it accepted back then yet not now? Has God and the Holy Spirit changed his way of doing things of handling those whe attack the Church?  

Did Constantine REALLY have a vision of Christ telling him to put the CROSS of emblem? How can this be true?

Curiouser and curiouser.



Offline TomS

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2004, 08:28:46 PM »
 Are we using headgear, or just cups & mouthpieces?   ;D

No cups -- I have not found one big enough yet  ;D

Make Love Not War, Dude!
« Last Edit: June 17, 2004, 08:32:35 PM by Tom+ú »

Offline Elisha

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2004, 08:34:40 PM »
It's things like this that confuse me.

If God is never changing and the Holy Spirit was guiding the Church and the Holy Fathers - then why did these violent things occur? Why was it accepted back then yet not now? Has God and the Holy Spirit changed his way of doing things of handling those whe attack the Church?  

Did Constantine REALLY have a vision of Christ telling him to put the CROSS of emblem? How can this be true?

Curiouser and curiouser.




Tom,
For example, IIRC, I think St. Nick was deposed or punished somehow after he punched Arius out.  It's the old easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.  St. Nick wasn't lauded for the violence, but the stance on the issue.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2004, 08:38:54 PM »
No cups...

Just hearing that makes me cringe.  You must never have been in a boxing ring.  I'd give up my mouthpiece before I'd give up my cup!  Teeth can be capped. ;D

Make Love Not War, Dude!

Wait a minute, aren't you the guy who was calling for church-sanctioned violence against the heretics?   ???  But seriously, boxing isn't "war", its just a sport like any other.  More people get hurt playing football than boxing.  I box all the time, and I'd NEVER play tackle football.
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline TomS

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2004, 08:50:14 PM »
a minute, aren't you the guy who was calling for church-sanctioned violence against the heretics?   ???  

Not really. I was speaking from an historical perspective. Personally, what anyone else chooses to believe is their business.

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!" (Probably way before your time)

Offline Linus7

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #57 on: June 17, 2004, 09:00:51 PM »
Who besides me remembers when this was the deadest forum (the one with the least activity) on this web site?

The thing seemed not to move for months at a time.

I can remember Anastasios practically begging people to post here.

Things sure have changed.

Perhaps the coming policy changes will restore peace only by eliminating the controversy that has made this forum more active.

The effect may be the return of this forum to what it was before.
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Offline TomS

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #58 on: June 17, 2004, 09:01:59 PM »
The effect may be the return of this forum to what it was before.

(yawn)

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #59 on: June 17, 2004, 09:02:08 PM »

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!" (Probably way before your time)


Ah, Barry Goldwater.  A little before my time, but in addition to boxing, I also read sometimes.  I like to think of myself as something of a "Renaissance man".  And an internet geek!  Time to get power down now.  My eyes hurt.  'Night all!
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline Anastasios

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #60 on: June 17, 2004, 09:39:34 PM »
Anastasios,

Since you're here, and since this thread was originally about the state of the fourm, how close are you guys to a solution?

We are discussing this behind the scenes every day. Each option has some unfortunate consequences, so we are taking our time to make sure we come up with the right solution.

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Offline Anastasios

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #61 on: June 17, 2004, 09:41:12 PM »
Linus,

So are you saying I got my wish? ;) LOL

anastasios
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Offline Elisha

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #62 on: June 18, 2004, 02:41:48 AM »
Well I guess all the Orthodox leaders (at least in the US) have sucumbed to Ecumenism while Linus alone holds fast to the Orthodox faith.  It sounds like you are the biggest candidate here for ROAC.  

No, I don't assume so - I know so that the rites and praxis are similar.  And I have followed the threads enough to know that you just refuse to even try and look at the issues w/o bias and with any sort of an open mind or charity.

I think everyone here, and most especially Linus could do with a good dose of Fr. Seraphim Rose.  I'm no disciple - I just appreciate his love for everyone.  To quote him, "I myself fear the cold hearts of the "intellectually correct" far more than any errors you might find (in Augustine).  I sense in these hearts a preparation for the work of the Antichrist (whose imitation of Christ must also extend to
"correct theology".  I feel in Augustine the love of Christ."  (from a letter of his in 1981)

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #63 on: June 18, 2004, 04:05:07 AM »
Way to go, Elisha. Just keep going after Linus7.
Sorry I was working yesterday while he was he was mugged here for holding views not popular but more prevalent than you might think.
The ideas being imparted in one seminary or jurisdiction do not necessarily follow at others - for sure they do not.
Who are you to give sanctimonious pastoral advice to Linus, me, or anyone else?
Demetri
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #64 on: June 18, 2004, 07:50:58 AM »

Who are you to give sanctimonious pastoral advice to Linus, me, or anyone else?
Demetri


In fairness to Elisha, I've received some "sanctimonius pastoral advice" from the other side as well, and more than once at that.

Oh, and Anastasios, thanks for the reply.  Hope you guys are able to reach a consensus soon.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2004, 07:53:45 AM by Antonious Nikolas »
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #65 on: June 18, 2004, 09:39:19 AM »
AntoniousNikolas,

Nothing wrong with being fair.

Demetri
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Offline Linus7

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #66 on: June 18, 2004, 10:10:20 AM »
Quote
Elisha:
Well I guess all the Orthodox leaders (at least in the US) have sucumbed to Ecumenism while Linus alone holds fast to the Orthodox faith.  It sounds like you are the biggest candidate here for ROAC.

Make up your mind, please!

Am I a Sola Scriptura Protestant or a ROAC fanatic?  ;D

Who said "all the Orthodox leaders (at least in the US) have succumbed to Ecumenism?"

Some of them may have. Others have not.

But even if a majority of them do succumb to ecumenism, that will not alter the truth, will not rewrite what the Fathers wrote or undecree what the ecumenical councils decreed.  

Quote
Elisha: No, I don't assume so - I know so that the rites and praxis are similar.  And I have followed the threads enough to know that you just refuse to even try and look at the issues w/o bias and with any sort of an open mind or charity.

And I know you have long held some sort of personal dislike for me that colors your perception. You have displayed it often enough in other contexts and long before this present discussion began.

You would have to remove the bias in your own eye before you could begin to see the bias in mine.

Quote
Elisha: I think everyone here, and most especially Linus could do with a good dose of Fr. Seraphim Rose.  I'm no disciple - I just appreciate his love for everyone.  To quote him, "I myself fear the cold hearts of the "intellectually correct" far more than any errors you might find (in Augustine).  I sense in these hearts a preparation for the work of the Antichrist (whose imitation of Christ must also extend to
"correct theology".  I feel in Augustine the love of Christ."  (from a letter of his in 1981)

I think you are taking Fr. Seraphim's words out of context to support something he would not have supported.

Are you saying he endorsed compromise with the Non-Chalcedonians or that he viewed loyalty to the Fathers and their councils as hyper-correctness?

I've read enough Seraphim Rose to know that is not the case.

As for "preparation for the work of Antichrist," what is that if not dialogues sponsored by the WCC, a blurring of the lines between old heresies and Orthodoxy, a denial of the words of the Fathers?

We are not talking about hyper-correctness in liturgical nuances or the rules of fasting here.

We are talking about the solemn, Holy Spirit-inspired decrees of the ecumenical councils and the consensus of the Orthodox Fathers.

Without them, the very foundation of Orthodoxy is destroyed.

Contradict them to "make friends," and there will be no Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2004, 10:12:01 AM by Linus7 »
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Offline mourad

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #67 on: June 18, 2004, 10:22:25 AM »
Linus7,

as a matter of fact, however, inasmuch as Fr. Seraphim was, and in a good sense, 'hyper-orthodox' why did he never write regarding the unoffical meetings held by the joint commission?

Another thing you gotta keep in mind is the fact that when it comes to WCC, many many Overseers and priests do keep away since Theology seems secondary there. But when you read the minutes of the unoffcial and official dialogues, somehting beautiful is there, THEOLOGY is discussed in an atmosphere i am sure most of us would have liked to see all ecumenical councils discussed in. Please remember, i am a person totally unwilling to compromise truth. I know what monophysitism is, and i know i am not a monophysite (not just on the Eutychian level) but on all levels.

Praying that you be praying for me,
in Christ's Love,
mourad

Offline Linus7

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #68 on: June 18, 2004, 10:40:40 AM »
Quote
mourad:
Linus7,

as a matter of fact, however, inasmuch as Fr. Seraphim was, and in a good sense, 'hyper-orthodox' why did he never write regarding the unoffical meetings held by the joint commission?

I do not know that he did not write about them.

I have not read everything written by Fr. Seraphim.

Arguments from silence are a bit weak, though, mourad.

One could ask why Fr. Seraphim never wrote about the problem of auto theft in Miami.

Perhaps he thought it was okay then?

Quote
mourad: Another thing you gotta keep in mind is the fact that when it comes to WCC, many many Overseers and priests do keep away since Theology seems secondary there. But when you read the minutes of the unoffcial and official dialogues, somehting beautiful is there, THEOLOGY is discussed in an atmosphere i am sure most of us would have liked to see all ecumenical councils discussed in. Please remember, i am a person totally unwilling to compromise truth. I know what monophysitism is, and i know i am not a monophysite (not just on the Eutychian level) but on all levels.

Praying that you be praying for me,
in Christ's Love,
mourad

I don't want to argue about whether or not you are a Monophysite; obviously, in your own view you are not.

But I don't see anything beautiful in participation in the WCC or NCC.
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Offline mourad

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #69 on: June 18, 2004, 12:44:51 PM »
That's just my point, the joint comission dialogue has nothing to do with WCC.

As for the arguing out of silence regarding the Fr. Seraphim issue: you got a solid point there, i can't argue.

However, one would think that someone so involved in writting about all the theological issues and trends of his tim, Fr. Seraphim would have at least touch a bit on the issue of the OO / EO dialogues, especially when he wrote TONS about ecumenism, always about RC / EO issues though, not the other way around... let me know what you think,

yours in Love,
mourad

Offline Elisha

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #70 on: June 18, 2004, 12:45:20 PM »
Way to go, Elisha. Just keep going after Linus7.
Sorry I was working yesterday while he was he was mugged here for holding views not popular but more prevalent than you might think.
The ideas being imparted in one seminary or jurisdiction do not necessarily follow at others - for sure they do not.
Who are you to give sanctimonious pastoral advice to Linus, me, or anyone else?
Demetri

Demetri,
If Linus wouldn't:  keep posting in a tone as if his opinion is that of all EOxy and he alone interprets the Fathers correctly, continually misrepresent what the other person is saying and most importantly, doing all of this in such a haughty tone, I wouldn't keep "going after" Linus.  Nevermind the fact that he has twice as many posts as the next non admin.  He's almost (especially of late) as bad as romanbyzantium!  If several people have told someone that what they wrote was inflammatory and/or rude - the it is!  The problem is with the person who wrote what was perceived as inflammatory/rude.

Offline Fr. David

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #71 on: June 18, 2004, 03:17:48 PM »
Who besides me remembers when this was the deadest forum (the one with the least activity) on this web site?

The thing seemed not to move for months at a time.

Sounds like the Discusi+¦n en espa+¦ol forum now.  ;) :(
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Offline Fr. David

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #72 on: June 18, 2004, 03:20:27 PM »
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!" (Probably way before your time)

Hey, now, sir!  Just because we're young-ins doesn't mean we don't read!
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Offline Fr. David

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #73 on: June 18, 2004, 03:33:54 PM »
The Fathers may have been right doctrinally but is it perhaps conceivable that they pushed some people away by their rough style?  I would say, "it's conceivable." Not all of the Fathers acted that way anyway.  So it seems to me to be a cultural thing.

Good call, hermano.  The Fathers were right doctrinally -- this was the Holy Spirit moving through the Church -- yet not right in their treatment of their fellow man -- which would be, IMO, the Holy Spirit working in spite of the Church.

We're promised doctrinal integrity through the safeguard of the HS; the fact that we sometimes act like burros to each other is not something the HS is responsible for, nor is it something that should be lauded, upheld, or repeated.

I must say, Linus7 -- your defense of the preferring of Chalcedonian terminology is wonderful, even though I personally think that the OO ultimately believe and are making an honest attempt at saying the same thing, imprecise terminology aside.  I must agree, however, that your tone is unnecessarily alienating.  From one Chalcedonian to another: it's your tone folks object to, not your message.

Que Dios Nos Bendiga,

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Offline Linus7

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #74 on: June 20, 2004, 03:06:09 PM »
Frankly, Pedro, I don't see anything wrong with my tone.

It is direct, blunt, and to the point.

I never engage in the sorts of personal attacks that have been used against me.

The real problem is that I will not say the sorts of things so many seem to want me to say out of the sort of pseudo-politeness which is the mask of unacceptable compromise.

I do not think the Non-Chalcedonians mean the same things we mean but with different terminology.

If they do, then the Orthodox Fathers were mistaken, the councils from Chalcedon onward were lies, and the Orthodox Church is not the Church.

If the Non-Chalcedonians are Orthodox, then the ecumenical councils are optional and Orthodoxy is divided like Protestantism into denominations, each of which has an equal claim to the title, "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church."

If the Church is actually divided into "branches" or "church families" (the last term has been used in the NC-EO dialogues), then perhaps the Protestants are right and no one can really tell what, who, or where the true Church is.

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
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Offline Linus7

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #75 on: June 20, 2004, 03:18:01 PM »
Demetri,
If Linus wouldn't:  keep posting in a tone as if his opinion is that of all EOxy and he alone interprets the Fathers correctly, continually misrepresent what the other person is saying and most importantly, doing all of this in such a haughty tone, I wouldn't keep "going after" Linus.  Nevermind the fact that he has twice as many posts as the next non admin.  He's almost (especially of late) as bad as romanbyzantium!  If several people have told someone that what they wrote was inflammatory and/or rude - the it is!  The problem is with the person who wrote what was perceived as inflammatory/rude.

"Rude" is in the eye of the beholder.

Frankly, I have found many of your posts rude.

For example, there is the following unjustified and unsupported remark you made about me:

Quote
Elisha: It sounds like you are the biggest candidate here for ROAC.

And then there is this response to one of my posts:

Quote
Elisha: Get over it.  He never implied anything of the sort.  You are the one who is always on the attack and always with haughty, negative tone.  It amazes me how everyone but you realizes it.

You have posted in a similar style - with intro statements very much in the same vein as "Get over it" - in other threads and in response to persons other than I.

Perhaps you would do well to take some of your own advice before giving it out to others.


The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas

Offline Anastasios

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #76 on: June 20, 2004, 03:22:41 PM »
Linus,

Your assessment of the situation is as blunt as your tone.  And I don't see the virtue in being blunt with fellow Christians of good will.  If you were not blunt you would not feel yourself under constant attack.  I myself hate being under attack or being on the attack and do everything possible to avoid it by being very polite and respectful.  Sometimes we all fall short but we shouldn't avoid trying to be gentle.  I just don't see how you enjoy posting on this forum, because you always seem agitated.  You also made a false dichotomy between being polite and being truthful, it appears to me, when you talk about pseudo-politeness. One of my favorite authors, Bishop Auxentios of Photiki (True Orthodox Church of Greece) is uncompromising but exceptionally polite and always trying to reach out to the Non-Eastern Orthodox in a way that is loving, in the manner of Christ.

Thankfully, though, it's not an either/or situation as you have presented it.  That's why there is an ongoing dialogue between the two families of Orthodox. Have you read any of the proceedings, which hierarchs of your own Church have signed on to?

Why are you even a member of the Ecumenical patriarchate when you hold such views? I would think you would be happier in the end in one of the Greek Old Calendar Churches.  But that's your business I guess.  Still, I wonder what your reasoning is.

anastasios
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Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism and may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.

Offline Linus7

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #77 on: June 20, 2004, 03:30:01 PM »
It is interesting that those who are most vocal in condemning my "tone" and accusing me of impoliteness are those who disagree with me to one degree or another.

I do not see anything wrong with talking to other Christians, although I do not believe any group condemned and anathematized by the Orthodox fathers and councils can be considered as Orthodox. The only "Orthodox families" are those that accept the fullness of the Orthodox faith.

I don't think I have been impolite.

Regarding the whole jurisdiction issue: in whose jurisdiction did St. Maximus the Confessor find himself?

I am not equating myself with or comparing myself to St. Maximus, but he certainly opposed the Monophysites and the Monothelite compromisers despite his being under the successive patriarchates of Sergius, Pyrrhus, and Paul at Constantinople.

Oh, by the way, I don't get "agitated." That is probably part of what irritates some people here about my posts.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2004, 03:51:44 PM by Linus7 »
The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas

Offline Anastasios

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #78 on: June 20, 2004, 04:43:01 PM »
Linus,

It's true that St Maximus was alone.  But so were the heretics such as Nestorius, who thought that he alone was right.  Playing the isolation game is a very precarious game to play.  That's why God gave us bishops who are usually right.  Not always, but usually.  We laypeople need shepherds to guide us.

anastasios
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #79 on: June 20, 2004, 07:21:04 PM »
Linus,

<...snipped....>

Why are you even a member of the Ecumenical patriarchate when you hold such views? I would think you would be happier in the end in one of the Greek Old Calendar Churches.  But that's your business I guess.  Still, I wonder what your reasoning is.

anastasios

I am sorry, anastasios, but you confuse me here. When did the OEcumenical Patriarch alter his statement that ALL Seven Councils are a requirement for re-union?

Demetri
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #80 on: June 20, 2004, 09:00:58 PM »
Demetri,

Read the agreed statement at Chambesy and see what would appear to some to be a waffling on the issue.

anastasios
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Offline Linus7

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #81 on: June 20, 2004, 11:34:30 PM »
Linus,

It's true that St Maximus was alone.  But so were the heretics such as Nestorius, who thought that he alone was right.  Playing the isolation game is a very precarious game to play.  That's why God gave us bishops who are usually right.  Not always, but usually.  We laypeople need shepherds to guide us.

anastasios

Nestorius ended up alone, but he had the support of Theodosius II at first.

And Nestorius was also Patriarch of Constantinople, was he not?

"Bishops are usually right" only when they are actually right, not merely by virtue of their positions as bishops.

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas

Offline Rustaveli

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #82 on: June 20, 2004, 11:39:20 PM »
Linus7,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I was wondering if you could explain this statement:

Personally, I think it is a mistake to let discussions of this sort spill over into forums like this one.


-½ Last Edit: Sun, June 13, 2004, 09:11:16 AM by Linus7 -+

... posted as a reponse to the thread I began under the hopeful title, "Nature, Will, and a Hope for Being Outrageously Agreeable..." -

and which I deliberately began in the (presumably) aptly named "Free-For-All" forum section?

[the guidelines state: "Free-For-All

This is where you can discuss hot topics that might degenerate... if you don't like polemics, you are advised not to read this forum."]


I'm a bit confused by your statement in that arena, given both the context and your defense of your own defenses ... ;)

P.S. - you-'uns might want to check out the 3rd and 4th pages of "Nature, Will, and a Hope for Being Outrageously Agreeable... (Faith / Theology)";

I'm not having any luck turning up more than one Will in St. Matthew's Gospel.

Offline Ben

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #83 on: June 20, 2004, 11:45:07 PM »
I'm not having any luck turning up more than one Will in St. Matthew's Gospel.

Whoa!

I pray we are just using different terminology.

If you honestly believe that Christ only has one will, and that this is clear in scripture, then you are embracing a heresy. I am not attacking you, but saying Christ only has one will is pure heresy.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2004, 11:46:01 PM by Ben »
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Linus7

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #84 on: June 20, 2004, 11:53:33 PM »
Rustaveli -

I made that statement because I was hoping we could limit the EO-NC conflict to one forum and not let it expand into several others, that's all.

Regarding the two wills of our Lord, how do you interpret Christ's words in Matthew 26:39:

". . . not as I will, but as You will" ?

He asked that, if possible, the cup of suffering pass from Him, but then freely submitted His own human will to the will of the Father.

If our Lord Jesus Christ had but one will - the divine will - such a prayer would make no sense.

Likewise, if the will comes from the person and not the natures, then there are three separate wills in the Holy Trinity.

You might want to read the Disputation With Pyrrhus of St. Maximus the Confessor. A copy in English can be had here.
The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas

Offline Rustaveli

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #85 on: June 20, 2004, 11:54:30 PM »
... well, I never was quite sure what the Scriptural reference to "Will" with regard to Father and Son had to do with too much of anything;

I had only hoped to find where the seminal form of the Chalcedonian doctrine might be found in the NT...

cf. this post:

All of those verses which assert both the complete humanity and divinity of our Lord contain the teaching of Chalcedon in seminal form.

Of particular interest is Jesus' prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane on the night He was betrayed, in which He petitioned His Father, "Not as I will, but as You will" (Matt. 26:39).Naturally.

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #86 on: June 20, 2004, 11:57:56 PM »
Quote

If our Lord Jesus Christ had but one will - the divine will - such a prayer would make no sense.

Likewise, if the will comes from the person and not the natures, then there are three separate wills in the Holy Trinity.

I totally agree.....100%  ;D
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Rustaveli

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #87 on: June 21, 2004, 12:05:47 AM »
Rustaveli -

I made that statement because I was hoping we could limit the EO-NC conflict to one forum and not let it expand into several others, that's all.

Regarding the two wills of our Lord, how do you interpret Christ's words in Matthew 26:39:

". . . not as I will, but as You will" ?

O.K., I can see that [limiting EO-OO virtual "fisticuffs"]... there's enough conflict in that arena without opening new doors!  8)

I did make the unexpected discovery that the Greek text of St. Matthew 26:39 does not seem to contain the term for "Will" (Thelo, long final "o"; sorry that my font and diacritical marks are lacking from the computer I am using...) except for the fist initial mention (relating to the Father, cf. prior posts above)...

It still seems to me that a two-will definition can't be based on this text alone,  in translation. [nor a single one; I wouldn't suggest that, as it may derive from the sentence structure in koine Greek, or one of a thousand other variables...]

... but your exposition is most helpful; as also the recommendation of the "Pyrrhus" text -  

I'll look into it!

Thanks for sharing your knowledge & insights.

Not a Monothelite, just seeking understanding...,

Rustaveli
« Last Edit: June 21, 2004, 12:09:02 AM by Rustaveli »

Offline Linus7

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #88 on: June 21, 2004, 12:15:49 AM »
Here's another bit of Scripture to ponder:

"I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me" (John 5:30).

Once again, that doesn't make much sense if our Lord Jesus has but a single, divine will.
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Offline Ben

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Re:Battle Royale
« Reply #89 on: June 21, 2004, 12:33:23 AM »
Amen Linus!
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint