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henrikhankhagnell
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« on: June 07, 2011, 10:51:34 AM »

If people who has been practising Orthodox spirituality for many years still eat meat (kill animals) does this mean that Orthodoxy isn't 100% good?
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« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2011, 11:18:28 AM »

Is eating meat a sin?
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« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2011, 11:24:45 AM »

"[Jesus] said to them, 'Have you anything here to eat?' They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; and He took it and ate it before them."
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« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2011, 11:25:47 AM »

Take it up with God.

"Rise, Peter, kill and eat" (Acts 10:13)
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« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2011, 11:52:21 AM »

If people who has been practising Orthodox spirituality for many years still eat meat (kill animals) does this mean that Orthodoxy isn't 100% good?

If being vegan is your canon, then I guess not.
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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2011, 12:05:24 PM »

Christ is ascended!
If people who has been practising Orthodox spirituality for many years still eat meat (kill animals) does this mean that Orthodoxy isn't 100% good?
I Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared, 3 who forbid marriage and enjoin abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. [i.e. Orthodoxy]
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« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2011, 12:28:33 PM »

Eating meat is not a sin. Wherever did you get that idea?
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« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2011, 01:02:40 PM »

Eating meat that comes from N.American's current factory farm industry probably should be considered a sin of some sort, considering the horrible suffering it causes many of the animals. Of course, Big Agriculture didn't exist when the New Testament was written and canonized. Eating factory-farmed meat is not exactly ethical, in my opinion (if one has ever taken the time to investigate current industry practices, even a little bit). I hear the old "but animals don't have souls" argument a lot regarding meat-eating discussions among Christians. But soulless or not, animals really do suffer. That is plain to see. Especially when they are forced to live in terrible, cramped, and filthy conditions and treated like mere commodities (or much worse) and not as God's creatures. Eating the meat of animals that are raised and killed with respect and mercy, or hunted in the wild, is altogether different, and is more likely (one would think) the kind of meat-eating that the Bible condones .
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« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2011, 01:44:31 PM »

Give him a chance. maybe he is talking about asceticism rater than lay peoples diet.
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« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2011, 01:45:34 PM »

It is true that God did not originally plan for humans to eat meat.
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« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2011, 04:29:28 PM »

Give him a chance. maybe he is talking about asceticism rater than lay peoples diet.
I was talking about those who have been practising Orthodoxy for many years, both lay and monks.
I know it may look like I'm critising Orthodoxy. That was not my intention. I was just asking a question to learn more about your faith.
It is true that God did not originally plan for humans to eat meat.
why then not eat vegetarian all the time?
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« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2011, 04:59:22 PM »

Jesus ate meat, I will too....now pass the barbecue sauce.....

primuspilus
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« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2011, 05:53:11 PM »

Jesus ate meat, I will too....now pass the barbecue sauce.....

primuspilus
why do you like killing animals? Huh
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« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2011, 06:00:08 PM »

Jesus ate meat, I will too....now pass the barbecue sauce.....

primuspilus
why do you like killing animals? Huh
Do you like killing plants, protists and fungi?
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« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2011, 06:09:27 PM »

Jesus ate meat, I will too....now pass the barbecue sauce.....

primuspilus
why do you like killing animals? Huh
Do you like killing plants, protists and fungi?
what is the difference between animals ad plats according to orthodoxy?
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« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2011, 07:00:06 PM »

We do not fast because of the morality of our food source. Since the fall we need to eat to live. Because of sin, we can only maintain our life through destruction. However, this is our existence, but not the reason we fast.

We fast to acknowledge our rejection of our animal-like existence, by rejecting animals. We also reject types of food that are for pleasure (wine and oil), so that we remember God is the focus, not our passions.
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« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2011, 07:07:06 PM »

Christ is ascended!
If people who has been practising Orthodox spirituality for many years still eat meat (kill animals) does this mean that Orthodoxy isn't 100% good?
I Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared, 3 who forbid marriage and enjoin abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. [i.e. Orthodoxy]
So, is it a sin not to eat meat, in your opinion?
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« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2011, 07:08:35 PM »

I submit the following verse:

Genesis 9:3 "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you.  I have given you all things, even as I did the green herbs."

I don't generally like prooftexting, but this is all the proof I think one needs to see how, even though God did not originally give man the animals as food, it is perfectly permissible to consume them.
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« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2011, 07:10:58 PM »

AFAIR there is a canon prohibiting non-eating meat apart from fasting reasons (or something like that).

what is the difference between animals ad plats according to orthodoxy?

Men: body+soul+Spirit
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« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2011, 07:17:38 PM »

AFAIR there is a canon prohibiting non-eating meat apart from fasting reasons (or something like that).

I have a hard time believing that given that monks are vegetarians and they don't fast every day.

However I would like to know the source of the OP's contention that eating meat = bad. If it is not something that comes from God than it is not only a worthless belief, but it is trying to impose certain beliefs on God himself and therefore anti-Christian in every way.
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« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2011, 07:24:11 PM »

AFAIR there is a canon prohibiting non-eating meat apart from fasting reasons (or something like that).

I have a hard time believing that given that monks are vegetarians and they don't fast every day.

Or non-meating it from other purposes than spiritual growth.... I don't remember correctly.
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« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2011, 07:52:02 PM »

AFAIR there is a canon prohibiting non-eating meat apart from fasting reasons (or something like that).

I have a hard time believing that given that monks are vegetarians and they don't fast every day.

Or non-meating it from other purposes than spiritual growth.... I don't remember correctly.
I seem to recall reading a canon that forbade abstaining from alcohol if it was done out of a rejection of the material world. It could have been the same thing.
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« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2011, 08:11:21 PM »

Eating meat that comes from N.American's current factory farm industry probably should be considered a sin of some sort, considering the horrible suffering it causes many of the animals. Of course, Big Agriculture didn't exist when the New Testament was written and canonized. Eating factory-farmed meat is not exactly ethical, in my opinion (if one has ever taken the time to investigate current industry practices, even a little bit). I hear the old "but animals don't have souls" argument a lot regarding meat-eating discussions among Christians. But soulless or not, animals really do suffer. That is plain to see. Especially when they are forced to live in terrible, cramped, and filthy conditions and treated like mere commodities (or much worse) and not as God's creatures. Eating the meat of animals that are raised and killed with respect and mercy, or hunted in the wild, is altogether different, and is more likely (one would think) the kind of meat-eating that the Bible condones .

Amen to this, Stavros!

I have recently taken the time to be informed and I a shocked at the cruelty. I have switched to free-range and organic on my meats because I want no part of treating God's creatures like that.

I don't go all veg because, as others have pointed out, animals have been given to us as food and Christ partook of meat as well.

Scripture says righteous men are marked by their kindness even to their animals: "A righteous man has regard for the life of his animal, But even the compassion of the wicked is cruel." (Pr. 12:10)

 I like St. John Chrysostom's comment on this verse: "It is an exercise of human charity when someone, by means of his animals, becomes accustomed to show mercy upon his fellow human beings. Indeed he who has pity upon his animals tends to have much more pity upon his brothers... Do the righteous have pity upon the souls of their animals? Absolutely. Cetainly it is necessary to convey benevolence toward them, so that there may be a greater exercise [of benevolence] toward fellow human beings. Indeed with good reason God ordered that we carry hurt animals and take back those that stray, and not to bind the mouth of an ox. He absolutely wants us to preserve the health of animals: in the first place for our sake, second, in order that they may provide us with their menial service. At the same time it is an exercise of benevolence and care. Indeed the one who has pity on strangers has much more pity upon those who are familiar to him. And the one who has pity upon his servants has much more pity for his brothers. But you may say: an animal provides you with a profitable service, but with what service does a brother provide you? He is helpful to you, I say, much more from the viewpoint of God. You can see that when we offer care such as we do for our animals we do not consider this demeaning. For, in doing so we are not only serving them but also ourselves."
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« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2011, 08:22:14 AM »

DavidH: Thanks for sharing these words of St. John Chrysostom. Wise words indeed.
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« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2011, 10:02:32 AM »

Quote
what is the difference between animals ad plats according to orthodoxy?

The Orthodox church uses fasting for it's pharmaceutical benefits relating to the souls antidote. Not eating meat in general makes a person less carnal. It's a useful tool in helping the soul in gaining superiority over the body. It allows the mind to focus on spiritual issues that usually remain hidden while the body remains strong. Everyone should practice fasting to there best ability. The benefits are tremendous. But as with anything having it's name associated with Orthodoxy. It should be used as prescribed. An over abundance of anything points to something out of alignment.
      As you may also know. Ascetics are called to have a vegetarian diet that only allows fish. That is also OK in the context of there life where interaction with the outside is limited. That said. If you have grown custom to not eating meat I would say it's OK as long as it hasn't left you defenseless in your surroundings and as long as you don't judge those who choose not to adhere to your lifestyle.
  
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« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2011, 10:30:19 AM »

Quote
why do you like killing animals?

I dont like killing animals, but lets be frank here. God made it clear what place animals have.
GEN 1:26 - Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground"

They exist under our dominion and at our pleasure. Paul also warned Timothy about those who would command to abstain from eating meat. For me it is a non-issue about eating meat. The Lord said I can, so I will. Asking why I enjoy killing animals has nothing to do with the subject. I dont "enjoy" killing animals. Anyone who does I would seriously question their mental and spiritual state.

Torturing animals before killing them is wrong and should not be done.

If someone wishes to abstain from eating meat because they think its healthy, go right ahead. I dont care. However, those crying meat is murder are usually the same ones trying to put animals on the same pedestal as humans, which is not only ridiculous, but antithetical to what God says.

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« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2011, 10:33:44 AM »

I agree with you on this one.  When my nephew was a teen, he once told me that if his father and his dog were in danger of drowning, he wasn't sure which one he would save!  That is when I knew that animal rights has gotten totally out of hand.  I may not be crazy about drugs being developed are tested on animals, but the other alternative is testing them on humans.  I love animals, but I am not going to put them on the same level as humans. 
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