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William
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« on: June 06, 2011, 09:47:42 PM » |
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Or did His divine nature fulfill the role a soul would in an average human?
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A beard covers many chins. - Tallitot
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Punch
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« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2011, 10:11:02 PM » |
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Or did His divine nature fulfill the role a soul would in an average human?
Beats me. Is this something that I would need to worry about, or just a matter of curiosity? |
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William
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« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2011, 10:11:24 PM » |
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Curiosity.
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A beard covers many chins. - Tallitot
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2011, 10:11:42 PM » |
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He took on all of humanity--human nature, human will, human body, and human soul. If he did not take on a human soul, no one could be saved.
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O Master Lord our God...who are wondrous in glory; who keeps his covenant and his mercy to them who love him with all their heart; who has given us redemption...through his only-begotten son, Jesus Christ...the life of everyone, the help of those who flee to him, the hope of those who cry to him.
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John of the North
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« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2011, 10:13:52 PM » |
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Or did His divine nature fulfill the role a soul would in an average human?
He had a human soul. The belief that He didn't have a human soul (and I know you are just asking and not saying you believe this) is actually the heresy of Apollinarism, which was condemned at the First Council of Constantinople in 381. |
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"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2011, 10:15:42 PM » |
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As I believe several of the Fathers say, "That which is not assumed is not saved." Also, a human being is a body-soul entity. The division of soul from body at death is unnatural. The body was created for immortality, as the soul is, but the result of sin is bodily death and corruption.
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O Master Lord our God...who are wondrous in glory; who keeps his covenant and his mercy to them who love him with all their heart; who has given us redemption...through his only-begotten son, Jesus Christ...the life of everyone, the help of those who flee to him, the hope of those who cry to him.
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Punch
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« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2011, 10:19:11 PM » |
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Curiosity.
I have wondered the same thing. I guess that it would depend on the actual nature of the soul. I have always seen the soul as the part of the Divine Nature that is in all of us, as when God breathed into Adam and gave him life. The man Jesus would not need a soul since He is already God and IS that divine nature. However, I have been told that I hold an erronious view of the Soul, which is quite possible since I have never bothered to figure out exactly what a soul really is. ps - written before the above two posts. |
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« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 10:20:02 PM by Punch »
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Punch
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« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2011, 10:44:04 PM » |
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John 19:30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his soul.
Answers it for me. |
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Tikhon.of.Colorado
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« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2011, 11:31:14 PM » |
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John 19:30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his soul.
Answers it for me. me, too  |
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2011, 01:13:33 AM » |
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Or did His divine nature fulfill the role a soul would in an average human?
It could not have. Divinity and soul are two very different things. Christ must have had a human soul to have been truly human. |
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2011, 01:13:33 AM » |
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Or did His divine nature fulfill the role a soul would in an average human?
Beats me. Is this something that I would need to worry about, or just a matter of curiosity? Yes, you need to worry about it because the opinion that Christ did not have a soul is the condemned heresy of Apollinaris. |
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2011, 01:13:34 AM » |
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Curiosity.
I have wondered the same thing. I guess that it would depend on the actual nature of the soul. I have always seen the soul as the part of the Divine Nature that is in all of us, as when God breathed into Adam and gave him life. The man Jesus would not need a soul since He is already God and IS that divine nature. However, I have been told that I hold an erronious view of the Soul, which is quite possible since I have never bothered to figure out exactly what a soul really is. ps - written before the above two posts. The soul is the immaterial but circumscribed animative principle of the flesh in animals and in humans it is additionally a rational principle (noetic). The divinity is beyond circumscription, animation, and rationality in this sense. |
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2011, 01:28:50 AM » |
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Curiosity.
I have wondered the same thing. I guess that it would depend on the actual nature of the soul. I have always seen the soul as the part of the Divine Nature that is in all of us, as when God breathed into Adam and gave him life. The man Jesus would not need a soul since He is already God and IS that divine nature. However, I have been told that I hold an erronious view of the Soul, which is quite possible since I have never bothered to figure out exactly what a soul really is. ps - written before the above two posts. The soul is the immaterial but circumscribed animative principle of the flesh in animals and in humans it is additionally a rational principle (noetic). The divinity is beyond circumscription, animation, and rationality in this sense. Well put. |
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2011, 02:38:17 AM » |
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Or did His divine nature fulfill the role a soul would in an average human?
No. This would be heresy. In order to be human, Christ would need to have a created body and soul, and He possessed both. "Human Nature" cannot exist outside of a human person, and a human person is an hypostasis with a body and a soul. Similarly, "Divine Nature" cannot exist outside of a Divine Person. A being without a human soul would not be a human person, and hence could not possess human nature. Christ is truly Theanthropos (God-Man) which means he is 100% Human and 100% Divine ( not "50% Human and 50% Divine"). |
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« Last Edit: June 07, 2011, 02:46:58 AM by ozgeorge »
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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
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jnorm888
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« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2011, 06:24:15 AM » |
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Or did His divine nature fulfill the role a soul would in an average human?
Beats me. Is this something that I would need to worry about, or just a matter of curiosity? Yes, you need to worry about it because the opinion that Christ did not have a soul is the condemned heresy of Apollinaris. The soul is the immaterial but circumscribed animative principle of the flesh in animals and in humans it is additionally a rational principle (noetic). The divinity is beyond circumscription, animation, and rationality in this sense. It could not have. Divinity and soul are two very different things. Christ must have had a human soul to have been truly human. Then you essentially agree with not only the 2nd Ecumenical council but also the 4th and 6th councils as well. |
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« Last Edit: June 07, 2011, 06:27:06 AM by jnorm888 »
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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D. http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/ |
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William
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« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2011, 01:27:40 PM » |
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Thanks for the answers, everyone.
Another related and probably overly analytical question:
If body and soul are separated at death, what happened at Christ's death? Did both His body and His soul stay united to the divine nature although they were separate?
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A beard covers many chins. - Tallitot
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2011, 01:53:40 PM » |
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Thanks for the answers, everyone.
Another related and probably overly analytical question:
If body and soul are separated at death, what happened at Christ's death? Did both His body and His soul stay united to the divine nature although they were separate?
Yes. After the Word became flesh, His human and divine natures became inseparable and indivisible, but also unmingling, without confusion, and without alteration. Likewise, in one of the troparia of the Paschal hours, we say, "In the grave bodily, but in hades with Thy soul as God: in Paradise with the thief, and on the throne with the Father and the Spirit wast Thou Who fillest all things, O Christ the Inexpressible." We don't endeavor to explain the paradoxes, they are inexplicable. Rather, we embrace them. |
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O Master Lord our God...who are wondrous in glory; who keeps his covenant and his mercy to them who love him with all their heart; who has given us redemption...through his only-begotten son, Jesus Christ...the life of everyone, the help of those who flee to him, the hope of those who cry to him.
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Tzimis
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« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2011, 02:01:10 PM » |
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John 19:30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his soul.
Answers it for me. me, too Soul in this verse should be translated as spirit. NKJ From my understanding the soul is a function of the body and it is the spirit of man that lives on after the body is laid to rest. |
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2011, 03:11:18 PM » |
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The Eastern Orthodox church and the bible both teach that Jesus Christ had a soul.
Also the scripture stated above. ;o)
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2011, 09:20:03 PM » |
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Or did His divine nature fulfill the role a soul would in an average human?
Beats me. Is this something that I would need to worry about, or just a matter of curiosity? Yes, you need to worry about it because the opinion that Christ did not have a soul is the condemned heresy of Apollinaris. The soul is the immaterial but circumscribed animative principle of the flesh in animals and in humans it is additionally a rational principle (noetic). The divinity is beyond circumscription, animation, and rationality in this sense. It could not have. Divinity and soul are two very different things. Christ must have had a human soul to have been truly human. Then you essentially agree with not only the 2nd Ecumenical council but also the 4th and 6th councils as well. How is that? |
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2011, 09:20:04 PM » |
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If body and soul are separated at death, what happened at Christ's death? Did both His body and His soul stay united to the divine nature although they were separate?
Yes. The soul separated from the body; the divinity remained with both. |
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Tzimis
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« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2011, 10:09:38 AM » |
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The Eastern Orthodox church and the bible both teach that Jesus Christ had a soul.
Also the scripture stated above. ;o)
Where did I state that he didn't? |
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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William
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« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2011, 09:50:12 PM » |
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Curiosity.
I have wondered the same thing. I guess that it would depend on the actual nature of the soul. I have always seen the soul as the part of the Divine Nature that is in all of us, as when God breathed into Adam and gave him life. The man Jesus would not need a soul since He is already God and IS that divine nature. However, I have been told that I hold an erronious view of the Soul, which is quite possible since I have never bothered to figure out exactly what a soul really is. ps - written before the above two posts. The soul is the immaterial but circumscribed animative principle of the flesh in animals and in humans it is additionally a rational principle (noetic). The divinity is beyond circumscription, animation, and rationality in this sense. Can you explain how divinity is beyond rationality? I thought that the noetic faculty in man was how he had God's image and likeness. |
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Severian
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« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2011, 01:41:17 AM » |
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Christ undoubtedly had a perfect human soul. Consider what St Athanasius has to say “But truly our salvation is not merely apparent, nor does it extend to
the body only, but the whole man, body and soul alike, has truly obtained salvation in
the Word Himself” I think I remember reading that some Fathers said that Christ united himself to a human soul so that he can unite our souls to him (by grace). If Christ's humanity were incomplete (I.e. if he lacked a soul) then we would have no salvation. |
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Christ is risen! !المسيح قام Χριστός ἀνέστη! ⲠⲓⲬⲣⲓⲥⲧⲟⲥ ⲁϥⲧⲱⲛϥ! Christus resurrexit! Come and join OCnet's new book club! |
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2011, 06:13:38 PM » |
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Or did His divine nature fulfill the role a soul would in an average human?
Beats me. Is this something that I would need to worry about, or just a matter of curiosity? Yes, you need to worry about it because the opinion that Christ did not have a soul is the condemned heresy of Apollinaris. The soul is the immaterial but circumscribed animative principle of the flesh in animals and in humans it is additionally a rational principle (noetic). The divinity is beyond circumscription, animation, and rationality in this sense. It could not have. Divinity and soul are two very different things. Christ must have had a human soul to have been truly human. Then you essentially agree with not only the 2nd Ecumenical council but also the 4th and 6th councils as well. How is that? Still rather curious. |
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xariskai
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« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2011, 07:00:44 PM » |
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John 19:30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his soul.
Answers it for me. me, too What translation of Jn 19:30 are you using, trevor? The usual translation is "spirit," and the Gk NT has πνεῦμα ("spirit"; "soul" in Gk. is ψυχή). Still, a definite yes to the OP. As Adam *was* a living soul (לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ חַיָּֽה /Gen 2:7), so also was Christ. |
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« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 07:19:54 PM by xariskai »
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celticfan1888
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« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2011, 12:12:17 AM » |
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Or did His divine nature fulfill the role a soul would in an average human?
See: 1st Canon of the First Council of Constantinople |
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