Author Topic: Explore Polish Orthodoxy  (Read 1429 times)

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Offline mike

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Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« on: June 06, 2011, 08:14:50 PM »
One more time we are attempting to organize International Workshop for all orthphoto users. We hope it will be good occassion to meet, learn more about photography and explore Polish Orthodox Church...

Offline JGHunter

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2014, 04:25:21 PM »
Hey I know this is old, but I'm interested. I don't feel a strong bond developing with the Greeks I attend with, I feel there is too much of a cultural clash. I do, however, have close Polish heritage (dziadek immigrated when his officer told him and the boys he was training with to flee because if they got involved in the war they'd just be slaughtered, so he went around most of Europe, even ended up at the port of Alexandria, before arriving in England). I believe he was probably Roman Catholic but my family have maintained ties to the Polish heritage on that side with family over there, food, even a bit of language (I didn't find out until I was almost a teenager that dziadek's name wasn't actually dziadek...) and I have at points (my wife seemed to like the idea) of changing my surname back to the Polish surname it would have been (dziadek changed it when he came to England because he felt ashamed or embarrassed of his Polish background, also I think he felt a little worried about persecution being a foreigner). I hope when possible to one day find and or attend a Polish Orthodox church, if there are any in Britain this would be great. Am I right in thinking the Polish Orthodox church is itself an Eastern Orthodox Church, sort of separate (don't know the word) in the same way other Eastern Orthodox churches are?

Any help or pointers would be greatly appreciated, Michał.
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2014, 04:33:20 PM »
He doesn't post here anymore....but there are some others who will probably answer.

:)

Offline JGHunter

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2014, 04:50:44 PM »
He has graciously contacted me, I didn't notice his signature!
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2014, 05:01:33 PM »

^He can always change his mind and his signature!  ;)
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Offline Dominika

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2014, 05:07:08 PM »
Hey I know this is old, but I'm interested. I don't feel a strong bond developing with the Greeks I attend with, I feel there is too much of a cultural clash. I do, however, have close Polish heritage (dziadek immigrated when his officer told him and the boys he was training with to flee because if they got involved in the war they'd just be slaughtered, so he went around most of Europe, even ended up at the port of Alexandria, before arriving in England). I believe he was probably Roman Catholic but my family have maintained ties to the Polish heritage on that side with family over there, food, even a bit of language (I didn't find out until I was almost a teenager that dziadek's name wasn't actually dziadek...) and I have at points (my wife seemed to like the idea) of changing my surname back to the Polish surname it would have been (dziadek changed it when he came to England because he felt ashamed or embarrassed of his Polish background, also I think he felt a little worried about persecution being a foreigner). I hope when possible to one day find and or attend a Polish Orthodox church, if there are any in Britain this would be great. Am I right in thinking the Polish Orthodox church is itself an Eastern Orthodox Church, sort of separate (don't know the word) in the same way other Eastern Orthodox churches are?

Any help or pointers would be greatly appreciated, Michał.

I'm a member of the Polish Orthodox Church and still posting here, so if you have any questions, just ask me ;) And that's very probable that on some issues I'll have different views than Michal
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 05:07:44 PM by Dominika »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2014, 05:42:13 PM »
I'm a member of the Polish Orthodox Church and still posting here, so if you have any questions, just ask me ;) And that's very probable that on some issues I'll have different views than Michal

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Offline JGHunter

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2014, 02:57:58 AM »
This sounds like an in-joke that is going right over my head...

But thank you Dominika. He gave me a couple links but if I were to ask questions they'd be pretty vage as this is the first I've heard of the Pokish Orthodox Church :D
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 03:00:21 AM by JGHunter »
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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2014, 02:59:09 AM »
This sounds like an in-joke that is going right over my head...

Just read the treasure trove of Michal's previous posts.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2014, 09:21:41 AM »
Michal is like a fine wine.  He is an aquired taste, but an all around good guy. I miss him here.
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Offline Orest

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2014, 09:26:17 AM »
I have visited Polish Orthodox churches in Poland on visits to Eastern Europe.  But the parishes I visited were made-up of ethnic Ukrainians, not ethnic Roman Cathoics.  Also a number of our priests in the UOCC who are ethnic Ukrainians came to us from the Polish Orthodox Church.

Offline JGHunter

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2014, 10:02:51 AM »
Michal is like a fine wine.  He is an aquired taste, but an all around good guy. I miss him here.

I see, I'll resist the temptation to look and judge!
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Offline Dominika

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2014, 10:47:49 AM »
I have visited Polish Orthodox churches in Poland on visits to Eastern Europe.  But the parishes I visited were made-up of ethnic Ukrainians,

It depends on the region, most of parishes of Lubelszczyzna are made up of Ukrainian or people having such roots. And the current bishop of this diocese has been working stronly on reminding to these people their Ukrainian roots.

not ethnic Roman Cathoics. 

How in an Orthodox parish there can be ethnic Roman Catholics? At least, in parishes in the countries/regions traditionally Orthodox/with significant Orthodox minority?...

Also a number of our priests in the UOCC who are ethnic Ukrainians came to us from the Polish Orthodox Church.
They probably come from the emmigration before the IIWW, so it's normal, as the boundaries of Poland (and the Polish Orthodox Church) were different, and a half of their territories were what's now Ukraine. So most of the members of the Polish Church actually weren't Polish ;)
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2014, 11:18:59 AM »
What church would Orthodox citizens of Poland who live in the UK usually attend? Probably either Ukrainian or Paris exaarchate ones under Constantinople?

Offline JGHunter

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2014, 12:24:13 PM »
My roots are in Kraków (and the West Midlands of England!)
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2014, 12:29:37 PM »
What church would Orthodox citizens of Poland who live in the UK usually attend? Probably either Ukrainian or Paris exaarchate ones under Constantinople?

Lots of the ones in the US attend ones under Moscow, or the OCA.  Is there some reason they wouldn't in the UK?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2014, 12:32:43 PM »
My roots are in Kraków (and the West Midlands of England!)
Btw, according to the ancient calendar of Kraków, St. Gorazd, the disciple and successor to St. Methodius, evangelized the region, and gave it its first Christian presence.
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                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2014, 12:53:49 PM »
What church would Orthodox citizens of Poland who live in the UK usually attend? Probably either Ukrainian or Paris exaarchate ones under Constantinople?

Lots of the ones in the US attend ones under Moscow, or the OCA.  Is there some reason they wouldn't in the UK?

There's no OCA in the UK. It's MP or ROCOR (which apparently still has a diocese in the British Isles). In practice, they have no issues with the EP or Antioch. There's not as much variety per location.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2014, 01:36:26 PM »
What church would Orthodox citizens of Poland who live in the UK usually attend? Probably either Ukrainian or Paris exaarchate ones under Constantinople?

Lots of the ones in the US attend ones under Moscow, or the OCA.  Is there some reason they wouldn't in the UK?

Well, there's no OCA in the UK, except possibly for American military bases.

As for the MP, most of the old Sourozh went over to Paris/the EP.

The new Sourozh is heavily recent immigrants from Russia. No idea if any Polish citizens attend there, but if I was Polish Orthodox , I'd remember Archbishop Miron (Chodakowski).

Offline JGHunter

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2014, 01:57:17 PM »
What church would Orthodox citizens of Poland who live in the UK usually attend? Probably either Ukrainian or Paris exaarchate ones under Constantinople?

Lots of the ones in the US attend ones under Moscow, or the OCA.  Is there some reason they wouldn't in the UK?

Well, there's no OCA in the UK, except possibly for American military bases.

As for the MP, most of the old Sourozh went over to Paris/the EP.

The new Sourozh is heavily recent immigrants from Russia. No idea if any Polish citizens attend there, but if I was Polish Orthodox , I'd remember Archbishop Miron (Chodakowski).

Hehe, the idea of OCA in Britain seems, well, funny. It would be like America writing up a tome of the English language for our benefit. Not that Orthodoxy belongs to us and we gave it to them, but it was here already, no need for it to come back in an Americanised form.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2014, 02:09:43 PM »
What church would Orthodox citizens of Poland who live in the UK usually attend? Probably either Ukrainian or Paris exaarchate ones under Constantinople?

Lots of the ones in the US attend ones under Moscow, or the OCA.  Is there some reason they wouldn't in the UK?

There's no OCA in the UK. It's MP or ROCOR (which apparently still has a diocese in the British Isles). In practice, they have no issues with the EP or Antioch. There's not as much variety per location.
What church would Orthodox citizens of Poland who live in the UK usually attend? Probably either Ukrainian or Paris exaarchate ones under Constantinople?

Lots of the ones in the US attend ones under Moscow, or the OCA.  Is there some reason they wouldn't in the UK?

Well, there's no OCA in the UK, except possibly for American military bases.

As for the MP, most of the old Sourozh went over to Paris/the EP.

The new Sourozh is heavily recent immigrants from Russia. No idea if any Polish citizens attend there, but if I was Polish Orthodox , I'd remember Archbishop Miron (Chodakowski).

LOL. I should have known better than to indulge the Phanar's delusions as to the status of the OCA.  Its inclusion was just to cover all "Russian" bases.
Here in Chicago, the center of Polonia, the Poles go to the OCA.  They have their own parish, St. Joseph's.

Old Sourozh?  Alas! The Phanriots lost in court: there is only "Sourozh." None of it went over to the Phanar.  Some did leave it and submit to the Ultramarists.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2014, 02:12:35 PM »
What church would Orthodox citizens of Poland who live in the UK usually attend? Probably either Ukrainian or Paris exaarchate ones under Constantinople?

Lots of the ones in the US attend ones under Moscow, or the OCA.  Is there some reason they wouldn't in the UK?

Well, there's no OCA in the UK, except possibly for American military bases.

As for the MP, most of the old Sourozh went over to Paris/the EP.

The new Sourozh is heavily recent immigrants from Russia. No idea if any Polish citizens attend there, but if I was Polish Orthodox , I'd remember Archbishop Miron (Chodakowski).

Hehe, the idea of OCA in Britain seems, well, funny. It would be like America writing up a tome of the English language for our benefit. Not that Orthodoxy belongs to us and we gave it to them, but it was here already, no need for it to come back in an Americanised form.
AFAIK, American Orthodoxy, which dates from 1738/9 (admittedly from the Russian Embassy Church, i.e. the Cathedral of Sourozh) predates British Orthodoxy.  I'm not sure off hand about the first British Orthodox (outside of the Colonials), though they date from later the same century at the latest.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Arachne

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2014, 02:35:58 PM »
What church would Orthodox citizens of Poland who live in the UK usually attend? Probably either Ukrainian or Paris exaarchate ones under Constantinople?

Lots of the ones in the US attend ones under Moscow, or the OCA.  Is there some reason they wouldn't in the UK?

Well, there's no OCA in the UK, except possibly for American military bases.

As for the MP, most of the old Sourozh went over to Paris/the EP.

The new Sourozh is heavily recent immigrants from Russia. No idea if any Polish citizens attend there, but if I was Polish Orthodox , I'd remember Archbishop Miron (Chodakowski).

Hehe, the idea of OCA in Britain seems, well, funny. It would be like America writing up a tome of the English language for our benefit. Not that Orthodoxy belongs to us and we gave it to them, but it was here already, no need for it to come back in an Americanised form.
AFAIK, American Orthodoxy, which dates from 1738/9 (admittedly from the Russian Embassy Church, i.e. the Cathedral of Sourozh) predates British Orthodoxy.  I'm not sure off hand about the first British Orthodox (outside of the Colonials), though they date from later the same century at the latest.

The first (Greek) Orthodox church in London was erected in 1677.

http://www.stsophia.org.uk/en_history.html
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2014, 02:56:01 PM »
What church would Orthodox citizens of Poland who live in the UK usually attend? Probably either Ukrainian or Paris exaarchate ones under Constantinople?

Lots of the ones in the US attend ones under Moscow, or the OCA.  Is there some reason they wouldn't in the UK?

Well, there's no OCA in the UK, except possibly for American military bases.

As for the MP, most of the old Sourozh went over to Paris/the EP.

The new Sourozh is heavily recent immigrants from Russia. No idea if any Polish citizens attend there, but if I was Polish Orthodox , I'd remember Archbishop Miron (Chodakowski).

Hehe, the idea of OCA in Britain seems, well, funny. It would be like America writing up a tome of the English language for our benefit. Not that Orthodoxy belongs to us and we gave it to them, but it was here already, no need for it to come back in an Americanised form.
AFAIK, American Orthodoxy, which dates from 1738/9 (admittedly from the Russian Embassy Church, i.e. the Cathedral of Sourozh) predates British Orthodoxy.  I'm not sure off hand about the first British Orthodox (outside of the Colonials), though they date from later the same century at the latest.

The first (Greek) Orthodox church in London was erected in 1677.

http://www.stsophia.org.uk/en_history.html
Your source states "The Greeks worshiped in the Russian Church."

I was, however, speaking of the British:the British Isles do not include the Greek Isles.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Arachne

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2014, 02:58:46 PM »
What church would Orthodox citizens of Poland who live in the UK usually attend? Probably either Ukrainian or Paris exaarchate ones under Constantinople?

Lots of the ones in the US attend ones under Moscow, or the OCA.  Is there some reason they wouldn't in the UK?

Well, there's no OCA in the UK, except possibly for American military bases.

As for the MP, most of the old Sourozh went over to Paris/the EP.

The new Sourozh is heavily recent immigrants from Russia. No idea if any Polish citizens attend there, but if I was Polish Orthodox , I'd remember Archbishop Miron (Chodakowski).

Hehe, the idea of OCA in Britain seems, well, funny. It would be like America writing up a tome of the English language for our benefit. Not that Orthodoxy belongs to us and we gave it to them, but it was here already, no need for it to come back in an Americanised form.
AFAIK, American Orthodoxy, which dates from 1738/9 (admittedly from the Russian Embassy Church, i.e. the Cathedral of Sourozh) predates British Orthodoxy.  I'm not sure off hand about the first British Orthodox (outside of the Colonials), though they date from later the same century at the latest.

The first (Greek) Orthodox church in London was erected in 1677.

http://www.stsophia.org.uk/en_history.html
Your source states "The Greeks worshiped in the Russian Church."

I was, however, speaking of the British:the British Isles do not include the Greek Isles.

Yes, they did - after the congregation of the 1677 church dispersed and the building fell into disuse. Try re-reading the first five paragraphs, more slowly.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2014, 03:25:58 PM »
What church would Orthodox citizens of Poland who live in the UK usually attend? Probably either Ukrainian or Paris exaarchate ones under Constantinople?

Lots of the ones in the US attend ones under Moscow, or the OCA.  Is there some reason they wouldn't in the UK?

Well, there's no OCA in the UK, except possibly for American military bases.

As for the MP, most of the old Sourozh went over to Paris/the EP.

The new Sourozh is heavily recent immigrants from Russia. No idea if any Polish citizens attend there, but if I was Polish Orthodox , I'd remember Archbishop Miron (Chodakowski).

Hehe, the idea of OCA in Britain seems, well, funny. It would be like America writing up a tome of the English language for our benefit. Not that Orthodoxy belongs to us and we gave it to them, but it was here already, no need for it to come back in an Americanised form.
AFAIK, American Orthodoxy, which dates from 1738/9 (admittedly from the Russian Embassy Church, i.e. the Cathedral of Sourozh) predates British Orthodoxy.  I'm not sure off hand about the first British Orthodox (outside of the Colonials), though they date from later the same century at the latest.

The first (Greek) Orthodox church in London was erected in 1677.

http://www.stsophia.org.uk/en_history.html
Your source states "The Greeks worshiped in the Russian Church."

I was, however, speaking of the British:the British Isles do not include the Greek Isles.

Yes, they did - after the congregation of the 1677 church dispersed and the building fell into disuse. Try re-reading the first five paragraphs, more slowly.
No, I read them: please point out where they mention the British Orthodox.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Arachne

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2014, 03:37:23 PM »
What church would Orthodox citizens of Poland who live in the UK usually attend? Probably either Ukrainian or Paris exaarchate ones under Constantinople?

Lots of the ones in the US attend ones under Moscow, or the OCA.  Is there some reason they wouldn't in the UK?

Well, there's no OCA in the UK, except possibly for American military bases.

As for the MP, most of the old Sourozh went over to Paris/the EP.

The new Sourozh is heavily recent immigrants from Russia. No idea if any Polish citizens attend there, but if I was Polish Orthodox , I'd remember Archbishop Miron (Chodakowski).

Hehe, the idea of OCA in Britain seems, well, funny. It would be like America writing up a tome of the English language for our benefit. Not that Orthodoxy belongs to us and we gave it to them, but it was here already, no need for it to come back in an Americanised form.
AFAIK, American Orthodoxy, which dates from 1738/9 (admittedly from the Russian Embassy Church, i.e. the Cathedral of Sourozh) predates British Orthodoxy.  I'm not sure off hand about the first British Orthodox (outside of the Colonials), though they date from later the same century at the latest.

The first (Greek) Orthodox church in London was erected in 1677.

http://www.stsophia.org.uk/en_history.html
Your source states "The Greeks worshiped in the Russian Church."

I was, however, speaking of the British:the British Isles do not include the Greek Isles.

Yes, they did - after the congregation of the 1677 church dispersed and the building fell into disuse. Try re-reading the first five paragraphs, more slowly.
No, I read them: please point out where they mention the British Orthodox.

First: 'Britain' didn't exist then (it was created by the union of England and Scotland in 1707), so neither were there British Orthodox.

Second: If a Russian church on Russian Embassy grounds (therefore Russian territory) can count as 'American Orthodoxy', then a Greek church on British soil can count as 'British Orthodoxy' as well.

Third: The Russian church mentioned in the source was of the same kind (Russian Embassy grounds) and established in 1698 by Peter the Great. Still 40 years ahead of the American chapter.

Fourth: In the end, the race is rendered quite irrelevant by the fact that the Church was established in the British Isles several centuries pre-schism, therefore counting as de facto Orthodox. If there were saints, there were more faithful as well.
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Offline JGHunter

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2014, 04:06:33 PM »
Britain existed before there were people on it. Then Christianity was brought to the Celts in the 4th century I believe. Celtic Christianity, which I know no details of, but then a monk called Augustine was made Archbishop of Canterbury (right at the end of the 6th century) under the church in Rome. They couldn't get the Celtic Christians to take Augustine seriously but... well details I don't know but isn't this about as "British" Orthodox as it gets? Obviously I have no idea about how any of this works.
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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2014, 04:38:11 PM »
No, I read them: please point out where they mention the British Orthodox.

First: 'Britain' didn't exist then (it was created by the union of England and Scotland in 1707), so neither were there British Orthodox.
I haven't seen any evidence of any British Orthodox except after 1707: were there any English Orthodox, Scottish Orthodox, Welsh Orthodox, Irish Orthodox or Manx Orthodox before then?

Second: If a Russian church on Russian Embassy grounds (therefore Russian territory) can count as 'American Orthodoxy', then a Greek church on British soil can count as 'British Orthodoxy' as well.
The American Philip Ludwell III (who, btw, gave George Washington his military commission and brought over John Wayles, Thomas Jefferson's father-in-law and the father of his concubine Sally) went back to Viriginia, where he was authorized by the Holy Synod to translate the Orthodox Catechism and IIRC the DL and take back the Eucharist.  He returned and died in England, however, where he is buried.  His translation was published in London.
Third: The Russian church mentioned in the source was of the same kind (Russian Embassy grounds) and established in 1698 by Peter the Great. Still 40 years ahead of the American chapter.
Did it have any English Orthodox, Scottish Orthodox, Welsh Orthodox, Irish Orthodox, Manx Orthodox or British Orthodox before the "American chapter"?
Fourth: In the end, the race is rendered quite irrelevant by the fact that the Church was established in the British Isles several centuries pre-schism, therefore counting as de facto Orthodox. If there were saints, there were more faithful as well.
Alas!  Anselm of Canterbury and Henry VIII took care of that for the point at hand.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2014, 05:44:23 PM »
No, I read them: please point out where they mention the British Orthodox.

First: 'Britain' didn't exist then (it was created by the union of England and Scotland in 1707), so neither were there British Orthodox.
I haven't seen any evidence of any British Orthodox except after 1707: were there any English Orthodox, Scottish Orthodox, Welsh Orthodox, Irish Orthodox or Manx Orthodox before then?

There are no surviving records from the Assumption church. We know who it was created to minister to, but not who actually attended. Were any of those Greeks naturalised as subjects of His Majesty (the only national designation in effect at the time)? Were there any natives of the Isles drawn to the congregation? We don't know. Whatever we say would be speculation. The only fact is that there was an Orthodox church in London in 1677.

Second: If a Russian church on Russian Embassy grounds (therefore Russian territory) can count as 'American Orthodoxy', then a Greek church on British soil can count as 'British Orthodoxy' as well.
The American Philip Ludwell III (who, btw, gave George Washington his military commission and brought over John Wayles, Thomas Jefferson's father-in-law and the father of his concubine Sally) went back to Viriginia, where he was authorized by the Holy Synod to translate the Orthodox Catechism and IIRC the DL and take back the Eucharist.  He returned and died in England, however, where he is buried.  His translation was published in London.

So it's on linguistic terms that you define American Orthodoxy?

Third: The Russian church mentioned in the source was of the same kind (Russian Embassy grounds) and established in 1698 by Peter the Great. Still 40 years ahead of the American chapter.
Did it have any English Orthodox, Scottish Orthodox, Welsh Orthodox, Irish Orthodox, Manx Orthodox or British Orthodox before the "American chapter"?

See above, because repetition bores me.

Fourth: In the end, the race is rendered quite irrelevant by the fact that the Church was established in the British Isles several centuries pre-schism, therefore counting as de facto Orthodox. If there were saints, there were more faithful as well.
Alas!  Anselm of Canterbury and Henry VIII took care of that for the point at hand.

And that invalidates the fruits of the ancient Church how?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2014, 06:12:51 PM »
No, I read them: please point out where they mention the British Orthodox.

First: 'Britain' didn't exist then (it was created by the union of England and Scotland in 1707), so neither were there British Orthodox.
I haven't seen any evidence of any British Orthodox except after 1707: were there any English Orthodox, Scottish Orthodox, Welsh Orthodox, Irish Orthodox or Manx Orthodox before then?

There are no surviving records from the Assumption church. We know who it was created to minister to, but not who actually attended. Were any of those Greeks naturalised as subjects of His Majesty (the only national designation in effect at the time)? Were there any natives of the Isles drawn to the congregation? We don't know. Whatever we say would be speculation. The only fact is that there was an Orthodox church in London in 1677.
No, it seems also another fact that it disappeared without a trace by 1684.
Second: If a Russian church on Russian Embassy grounds (therefore Russian territory) can count as 'American Orthodoxy', then a Greek church on British soil can count as 'British Orthodoxy' as well.
The American Philip Ludwell III (who, btw, gave George Washington his military commission and brought over John Wayles, Thomas Jefferson's father-in-law and the father of his concubine Sally) went back to Viriginia, where he was authorized by the Holy Synod to translate the Orthodox Catechism and IIRC the DL and take back the Eucharist.  He returned and died in England, however, where he is buried.  His translation was published in London.
So it's on linguistic terms that you define American Orthodoxy?
No, geographical-America being a geographical term.
Third: The Russian church mentioned in the source was of the same kind (Russian Embassy grounds) and established in 1698 by Peter the Great. Still 40 years ahead of the American chapter.
Did it have any English Orthodox, Scottish Orthodox, Welsh Orthodox, Irish Orthodox, Manx Orthodox or British Orthodox before the "American chapter"?

See above, because repetition bores me.
Ditto.
Fourth: In the end, the race is rendered quite irrelevant by the fact that the Church was established in the British Isles several centuries pre-schism, therefore counting as de facto Orthodox. If there were saints, there were more faithful as well.
Alas!  Anselm of Canterbury and Henry VIII took care of that for the point at hand.
And that invalidates the fruits of the ancient Church how?
Trees uprooted bear no fruit.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2014, 06:20:18 PM »
No, I read them: please point out where they mention the British Orthodox.

First: 'Britain' didn't exist then (it was created by the union of England and Scotland in 1707), so neither were there British Orthodox.
I haven't seen any evidence of any British Orthodox except after 1707: were there any English Orthodox, Scottish Orthodox, Welsh Orthodox, Irish Orthodox or Manx Orthodox before then?

There are no surviving records from the Assumption church. We know who it was created to minister to, but not who actually attended. Were any of those Greeks naturalised as subjects of His Majesty (the only national designation in effect at the time)? Were there any natives of the Isles drawn to the congregation? We don't know. Whatever we say would be speculation. The only fact is that there was an Orthodox church in London in 1677.
No, it seems also another fact that it disappeared without a trace by 1684.

As the congregation gradually moved to other areas and the building could not be maintained, yes.

Second: If a Russian church on Russian Embassy grounds (therefore Russian territory) can count as 'American Orthodoxy', then a Greek church on British soil can count as 'British Orthodoxy' as well.
The American Philip Ludwell III (who, btw, gave George Washington his military commission and brought over John Wayles, Thomas Jefferson's father-in-law and the father of his concubine Sally) went back to Viriginia, where he was authorized by the Holy Synod to translate the Orthodox Catechism and IIRC the DL and take back the Eucharist.  He returned and died in England, however, where he is buried.  His translation was published in London.
So it's on linguistic terms that you define American Orthodoxy?
No, geographical-America being a geographical term.

So both London churches, from 1677 and 1698, are legitimate specimens.

Fourth: In the end, the race is rendered quite irrelevant by the fact that the Church was established in the British Isles several centuries pre-schism, therefore counting as de facto Orthodox. If there were saints, there were more faithful as well.
Alas!  Anselm of Canterbury and Henry VIII took care of that for the point at hand.
And that invalidates the fruits of the ancient Church how?
Trees uprooted bear no fruit.

Trees blighted can recover in time, though.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2014, 08:43:30 PM »
No, I read them: please point out where they mention the British Orthodox.

First: 'Britain' didn't exist then (it was created by the union of England and Scotland in 1707), so neither were there British Orthodox.
I haven't seen any evidence of any British Orthodox except after 1707: were there any English Orthodox, Scottish Orthodox, Welsh Orthodox, Irish Orthodox or Manx Orthodox before then?

There are no surviving records from the Assumption church. We know who it was created to minister to, but not who actually attended. Were any of those Greeks naturalised as subjects of His Majesty (the only national designation in effect at the time)? Were there any natives of the Isles drawn to the congregation? We don't know. Whatever we say would be speculation. The only fact is that there was an Orthodox church in London in 1677.
No, it seems also another fact that it disappeared without a trace by 1684.
As the congregation gradually moved to other areas and the building could not be maintained, yes.
I thought you said the parish had no surviving records: how do you know that it retained any "congregation"?

Second: If a Russian church on Russian Embassy grounds (therefore Russian territory) can count as 'American Orthodoxy', then a Greek church on British soil can count as 'British Orthodoxy' as well.
The American Philip Ludwell III (who, btw, gave George Washington his military commission and brought over John Wayles, Thomas Jefferson's father-in-law and the father of his concubine Sally) went back to Viriginia, where he was authorized by the Holy Synod to translate the Orthodox Catechism and IIRC the DL and take back the Eucharist.  He returned and died in England, however, where he is buried.  His translation was published in London.
So it's on linguistic terms that you define American Orthodoxy?
No, geographical-America being a geographical term.
So both London churches, from 1677 and 1698, are legitimate specimens.
Of what exactly?
Fourth: In the end, the race is rendered quite irrelevant by the fact that the Church was established in the British Isles several centuries pre-schism, therefore counting as de facto Orthodox. If there were saints, there were more faithful as well.
Alas!  Anselm of Canterbury and Henry VIII took care of that for the point at hand.
And that invalidates the fruits of the ancient Church how?
Trees uprooted bear no fruit.

Trees blighted can recover in time, though.
Transplanted trees are not such a recovery.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2014, 09:09:52 PM »
Wow...

Poland is 'Britain'?

shocker

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2014, 09:26:29 PM »
Wow...

Poland is 'Britain'?

shocker
for the Poles or for the Brits?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2014, 09:30:38 PM »
Wow...

Poland is 'Britain'?

shocker
for the Poles or for the Brits?

Well evidently since it's important to argue the history of Orthodoxy in historical British Isles....in a thread talking about Polish Orthodox Churches.....maybe its both ;)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2014, 10:35:30 PM »
Wow...

Poland is 'Britain'?

shocker
for the Poles or for the Brits?

Well evidently since it's important to argue the history of Orthodoxy in historical British Isles....in a thread talking about Polish Orthodox Churches.....maybe its both ;)
it might be: there is a question about a certain Jan Bohdan, who arrived in 1608 in Jamestown from Poland,  who might have been the first Orthodox settled in English territories.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2014, 10:38:54 PM »
Wow...

Poland is 'Britain'?

shocker
for the Poles or for the Brits?

Well evidently since it's important to argue the history of Orthodoxy in historical British Isles....in a thread talking about Polish Orthodox Churches.....maybe its both ;)
it might be: there is a question about a certain Jan Bohdan, who arrived in 1608 in Jamestown from Poland,  who might have been the first Orthodox settled in English territories.

Well since Jan is either dead ( or a vampire) neither of those will help the original poster find a Polish Church.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2014, 10:57:57 PM »
Wow...

Poland is 'Britain'?

shocker
for the Poles or for the Brits?

Well evidently since it's important to argue the history of Orthodoxy in historical British Isles....in a thread talking about Polish Orthodox Churches.....maybe its both ;)
it might be: there is a question about a certain Jan Bohdan, who arrived in 1608 in Jamestown from Poland,  who might have been the first Orthodox settled in English territories.

Well since Jan is either dead ( or a vampire) neither of those will help the original poster find a Polish Church.
Here:

Lot's there.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Dominika

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2014, 07:18:21 AM »
Wow...

Poland is 'Britain'?

shocker
for the Poles or for the Brits?


Well evidently since it's important to argue the history of Orthodoxy in historical British Isles....in a thread talking about Polish Orthodox Churches.....maybe its both ;)

Well, nowadays in Poland Great Britain or/and Ireland is/are called the 17th województwo (Polish name for province) of Poland because of the high immigration ;)

it might be: there is a question about a certain Jan Bohdan, who arrived in 1608 in Jamestown from Poland,  who might have been the first Orthodox settled in English territories.

:laugh: It would be ridiculous if it turned out true


Edit: seriously, open a new thread for historical discussions about Orthodoxy in Britan. It would be very interesting and not hiding anotehr interesting topic which is Polish Orthodoxy ;)
« Last Edit: May 04, 2014, 07:19:22 AM by Dominika »
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Offline Arachne

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2014, 12:40:22 PM »
No, I read them: please point out where they mention the British Orthodox.

First: 'Britain' didn't exist then (it was created by the union of England and Scotland in 1707), so neither were there British Orthodox.
I haven't seen any evidence of any British Orthodox except after 1707: were there any English Orthodox, Scottish Orthodox, Welsh Orthodox, Irish Orthodox or Manx Orthodox before then?

There are no surviving records from the Assumption church. We know who it was created to minister to, but not who actually attended. Were any of those Greeks naturalised as subjects of His Majesty (the only national designation in effect at the time)? Were there any natives of the Isles drawn to the congregation? We don't know. Whatever we say would be speculation. The only fact is that there was an Orthodox church in London in 1677.
No, it seems also another fact that it disappeared without a trace by 1684.
As the congregation gradually moved to other areas and the building could not be maintained, yes.
I thought you said the parish had no surviving records: how do you know that it retained any "congregation"?

It didn't - which part of 'people moved to other areas and the building could not be supported' was unclear?

Second: If a Russian church on Russian Embassy grounds (therefore Russian territory) can count as 'American Orthodoxy', then a Greek church on British soil can count as 'British Orthodoxy' as well.
The American Philip Ludwell III (who, btw, gave George Washington his military commission and brought over John Wayles, Thomas Jefferson's father-in-law and the father of his concubine Sally) went back to Viriginia, where he was authorized by the Holy Synod to translate the Orthodox Catechism and IIRC the DL and take back the Eucharist.  He returned and died in England, however, where he is buried.  His translation was published in London.
So it's on linguistic terms that you define American Orthodoxy?
No, geographical-America being a geographical term.
So both London churches, from 1677 and 1698, are legitimate specimens.
Of what exactly?

British Orthodoxy, with 'British' being a geographical quantifier.

Fourth: In the end, the race is rendered quite irrelevant by the fact that the Church was established in the British Isles several centuries pre-schism, therefore counting as de facto Orthodox. If there were saints, there were more faithful as well.
Alas!  Anselm of Canterbury and Henry VIII took care of that for the point at hand.
And that invalidates the fruits of the ancient Church how?
Trees uprooted bear no fruit.

Trees blighted can recover in time, though.
Transplanted trees are not such a recovery.

Nonsense. Both transplantation and grafting are successful husbandry practices, if the people involved know what they're doing. Didn't work too shabbily over there, either.

@JGHunter: What parish would someone of Polish ancestry attend? Whichever they could get to. For most locations, there are not many options available.

And with this, I'll nope out of the thread, because arguing the toss is not my idea of Sunday fun.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2014, 12:41:17 PM by Arachne »
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Offline JGHunter

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2014, 02:05:17 PM »
@JGHunter: What parish would someone of Polish ancestry attend? Whichever they could get to. For most locations, there are not many options available.

And with this, I'll nope out of the thread, because arguing the toss is not my idea of Sunday fun.

This certainly appears to be the case!

And that's a good idea, arguments are never fun.
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Offline mabsoota

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #42 on: May 04, 2014, 03:01:15 PM »
to answer some questions:
someone is specifically asking about finding an orthodox church in uk that may be related to the polish orthodox church.
last year, i travelled on a ferry between britain and france.
in boats and airplanes traveling from uk, announcements have always been made in 2 languages; english and french, as these are considered international languages.
well, last year, all the signs on the boat were in english, french, and polish.
yes, polish has become the 3rd language used in uk due to the very large number of polish immigrants!

about orthodox Christianity in uk, saint john chrysostom wrote this about the story of the woman who anointed Jesus and wept:
"yet that a woman who was a harlot poured out oil in the house of some leper, in the presence of ten men, this all men celebrate throughout the world; and so great a time has passed, and yet the memory of that which was done has not faded away, but alike Persians and Indians, Scythians and Thracians, and Sarmatians, and the race of the Moors, and they that dwell in the British Islands, spread abroad that which was done secretly in a house by a woman that had been a harlot."
source:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/200180.htm

(this may predate the greek church...)
;-)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2014, 03:47:37 PM »
Wow...

Poland is 'Britain'?

shocker
for the Poles or for the Brits?


Well evidently since it's important to argue the history of Orthodoxy in historical British Isles....in a thread talking about Polish Orthodox Churches.....maybe its both ;)

Well, nowadays in Poland Great Britain or/and Ireland is/are called the 17th województwo (Polish name for province) of Poland because of the high immigration ;)
btw, it's voivodeship in English.

Have they forgot about Chicago?
it might be: there is a question about a certain Jan Bohdan, who arrived in 1608 in Jamestown from Poland,  who might have been the first Orthodox settled in English territories.

:laugh: It would be ridiculous if it turned out true
Why would it be ridiculous?

The first time I went to Jamestown, it happened that I was with a group who were all Polish, from off the boat to several generations in the US.  We happened to come on Jamestown Day (the anniversary of the founding) when the site makes a big deal of it all, and I was thinking how it was that these Poles, who had (I thought) no roots in Jamestown yet claimed it as their own being American.   I was shocked when I found out how faulty my initial premise was.
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Offline Dominika

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Re: Explore Polish Orthodoxy
« Reply #44 on: May 05, 2014, 10:20:16 AM »
Wow...

Poland is 'Britain'?

shocker
for the Poles or for the Brits?


Well evidently since it's important to argue the history of Orthodoxy in historical British Isles....in a thread talking about Polish Orthodox Churches.....maybe its both ;)

Well, nowadays in Poland Great Britain or/and Ireland is/are called the 17th województwo (Polish name for province) of Poland because of the high immigration ;)
btw, it's voivodeship in English.

Have they forgot about Chicago?

It used to be called in such waybut It's not so popular destination since Poland entered the EU.


The first time I went to Jamestown, it happened that I was with a group who were all Polish, from off the boat to several generations in the US.  We happened to come on Jamestown Day (the anniversary of the founding) when the site makes a big deal of it all, and I was thinking how it was that these Poles, who had (I thought) no roots in Jamestown yet claimed it as their own being American.   I was shocked when I found out how faulty my initial premise was.

Interesting story, I think Polish Americans and Poles living in America it's another interesting topic. Oh, regarding this and the question which jurisdictions do Polish Orthodox attend, a few months ago there was an interview with a Polish Orthodox priest serving in USA, fr. Wiaczesław Krawczuk, who says that a lot of Orthodox Poles attend his parish that's the cathedral of Lord's Transfiguration that's Russian. But e.g. I see that one of the webmasters of their parish is Jacob Chrzanowski ;)

I also know that the biggest Polish Orthodox diaspora is in Belgium and there are plan to open a Polish Orthodox parish - for now, they attend mainly Russian ones as the services are in Church Slavonic and/or French
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