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Author Topic: Is world Orthodoxy a dangerous religion for the end days?  (Read 4501 times) Average Rating: 0
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yeshuaisiam
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« on: June 06, 2011, 07:20:52 PM »

In Orthodoxy exists:

Commemoration of the government, president, and the military.
Registered to the state as a corporation (a legal person) under 501c3.

In Orthodoxy I never learned:
About the dangers of the evil psychological programming of music, television, and the main stream media.

Most Orthodox Christians (in America) believe that Romans 13 means to follow your "governing authorities" such as the president, when our governing authorities are ourselves (the people).

I can only conclude from the book of Revelation that obviously is speaking of corrupt governments joining together that the Eastern Orthodox Church could very well fall into the "beast" system since it is completely within the governing system now.

Do you believe there is an inherent danger of the end days within the Orthodox church?  (I'm speaking of the vast majority and not all Orthodoxy)
« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 07:24:37 PM by yeshuaisiam » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2011, 07:43:53 PM »

In Orthodoxy exists:

Commemoration of the government, president, and the military.
Registered to the state as a corporation (a legal person) under 501c3.

According to the IRS, churches receive an automatic exemption and do not need to register under 501c3. Whether they do or not is their call.

Quote
In Orthodoxy I never learned:
About the dangers of the evil psychological programming of music, television, and the main stream media.

The Church's responsibility is the spiritual health of the people. Anything else should be your responsibility. I don't want or need the clergy holding my hand on such things.

Quote
Most Orthodox Christians (in America) believe that Romans 13 means to follow your "governing authorities" such as the president, when our governing authorities are ourselves (the people).

The United States is a republic, not a democracy.

Quote
I can only conclude from the book of Revelation that obviously is speaking of corrupt governments joining together that the Eastern Orthodox Church could very well fall into the "beast" system since it is completely within the governing system now.

The Orthodox Church was founded by God and can never fall. The faithful may be tempted.

Quote
Do you believe there is an inherent danger of the end days within the Orthodox church?  (I'm speaking of the vast majority and not all Orthodoxy)

I consider it very unhealthy to speculate on the Endtimes. I have seen many prophecies. My time and efforts are better served working on my own salvation. I trust in God take care of His Church.

Quote from: Mark 4:35-41
On the same day, when evening had come, He said to them, “Let us cross over to the other side.” Now when they had left the multitude, they took Him along in the boat as He was. And other little boats were also with Him. And a great windstorm arose, and the waves beat into the boat, so that it was already filling. But He was in the stern, asleep on a pillow. And they awoke Him and said to Him, “Teacher, do You not care that we are perishing?”
Then He arose and rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, “Peace, be still!” And the wind ceased and there was a great calm. But He said to them, “Why are you so fearful? How is it that you have no faith?” And they feared exceedingly, and said to one another, “Who can this be, that even the wind and the sea obey Him!”
« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 07:44:21 PM by John of the North » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2011, 07:50:58 PM »

Not praying for government authorities is, I think, dangerous. We don't pray for them because they're good people, but because they, like all of us, are sinners. We pray that God guide them. How is this a bad thing?

This whole 501c3 thing is weird. Not that parishes do it, but that people make such a big deal about it. There's a reason behind it that helps protect the parish (at least from what I understand). This isn't the Byzantine or Russian Empires. We don't have Orthodox emperors taking care of everything.

I'm not sure how you can read Romans 13 and come to any other conclusion but that it's talking about the civil authorities. It's pretty clear. As was said before I began replying, the Church cannot fall. Christ, Himself, said that. I don't think there is any dangers that the Church cannot overcome. Individual people may fall, but the Church never will.
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2011, 08:09:45 PM »

In Orthodoxy exists:

Commemoration of the government, president, and the military.
Registered to the state as a corporation (a legal person) under 501c3.

According to the IRS, churches receive an automatic exemption and do not need to register under 501c3. Whether they do or not is their call.

Quote
In Orthodoxy I never learned:
About the dangers of the evil psychological programming of music, television, and the main stream media.

The Church's responsibility is the spiritual health of the people. Anything else should be your responsibility. I don't want or need the clergy holding my hand on such things.

Quote
Most Orthodox Christians (in America) believe that Romans 13 means to follow your "governing authorities" such as the president, when our governing authorities are ourselves (the people).

The United States is a republic, not a democracy.

Quote
I can only conclude from the book of Revelation that obviously is speaking of corrupt governments joining together that the Eastern Orthodox Church could very well fall into the "beast" system since it is completely within the governing system now.

The Orthodox Church was founded by God and can never fall. The faithful may be tempted.

Quote
Do you believe there is an inherent danger of the end days within the Orthodox church?  (I'm speaking of the vast majority and not all Orthodoxy)

I consider it very unhealthy to speculate on the Endtimes. I have seen many prophecies. My time and efforts are better served working on my own salvation. I trust in God take care of His Church.

Quote from: Mark 4:35-41
On the same day, when evening had come, He said to them, “Let us cross over to the other side.” Now when they had left the multitude, they took Him along in the boat as He was. And other little boats were also with Him. And a great windstorm arose, and the waves beat into the boat, so that it was already filling. But He was in the stern, asleep on a pillow. And they awoke Him and said to Him, “Teacher, do You not care that we are perishing?”
Then He arose and rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, “Peace, be still!” And the wind ceased and there was a great calm. But He said to them, “Why are you so fearful? How is it that you have no faith?” And they feared exceedingly, and said to one another, “Who can this be, that even the wind and the sea obey Him!”

That's right, it's a constitutional Republic where the people are in charge.
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« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2011, 08:11:06 PM »

Commemoration of the government, president, and the military.
Prayer for leadership is hardly saying you'll follow them mindlessly.
Quote
Registered to the state as a corporation (a legal person) under 501c3.
In the United States, a very small percentage of World Orthodoxy. Additionally registry for tax exemption does not in any way subjugate one to the state.
Quote
In Orthodoxy I never learned:
About the dangers of the evil psychological programming of music, television, and the main stream media.
Technological Determinism has been shown wrong time and again by study after study. It was an interesting theory when it came out 60 years ago, but there is nothing to it.

Quote
Most Orthodox Christians (in America) believe that Romans 13 means to follow your "governing authorities" such as the president, when our governing authorities are ourselves (the people).
Your governing authorities are your government. That means the people who make laws, not the people who elect people who make laws. Additionally it says to submit to authority, not follow. Two very different things.
Quote
I can only conclude from the book of Revelation that obviously is speaking of corrupt governments joining together that the Eastern Orthodox Church could very well fall into the "beast" system since it is completely within the governing system now.
That's your problem. You're reading the Apocalypse and interpreting it yourself. If you must read it, at least look at commentaries to see what the Fathers of the Church said. They know the faith much better than you or I.
Quote
Do you believe there is an inherent danger of the end days within the Orthodox church?  (I'm speaking of the vast majority and not all Orthodoxy)
No. There is however an inherent danger of the end days within Protestantism.
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2011, 08:11:50 PM »

Not praying for government authorities is, I think, dangerous. We don't pray for them because they're good people, but because they, like all of us, are sinners. We pray that God guide them. How is this a bad thing?

This whole 501c3 thing is weird. Not that parishes do it, but that people make such a big deal about it. There's a reason behind it that helps protect the parish (at least from what I understand). This isn't the Byzantine or Russian Empires. We don't have Orthodox emperors taking care of everything.

I'm not sure how you can read Romans 13 and come to any other conclusion but that it's talking about the civil authorities. It's pretty clear. As was said before I began replying, the Church cannot fall. Christ, Himself, said that. I don't think there is any dangers that the Church cannot overcome. Individual people may fall, but the Church never will.

I read Romans 13 and I don't see it that way.  To me they are not "civil authorities", they are "public SERVANTS".   Servants are answerable to their masters, which are the people.
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« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2011, 08:15:36 PM »

Not praying for government authorities is, I think, dangerous. We don't pray for them because they're good people, but because they, like all of us, are sinners. We pray that God guide them. How is this a bad thing?

This whole 501c3 thing is weird. Not that parishes do it, but that people make such a big deal about it. There's a reason behind it that helps protect the parish (at least from what I understand). This isn't the Byzantine or Russian Empires. We don't have Orthodox emperors taking care of everything.

I'm not sure how you can read Romans 13 and come to any other conclusion but that it's talking about the civil authorities. It's pretty clear. As was said before I began replying, the Church cannot fall. Christ, Himself, said that. I don't think there is any dangers that the Church cannot overcome. Individual people may fall, but the Church never will.

I read Romans 13 and I don't see it that way.  To me they are not "civil authorities", they are "public SERVANTS".   Servants are answerable to their masters, which are the people.

That seems to me a massive way-of-thinking anachronism there, yeshua.
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« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2011, 08:17:49 PM »

Commemoration of the government, president, and the military.
Prayer for leadership is hardly saying you'll follow them mindlessly.
Quote
Registered to the state as a corporation (a legal person) under 501c3.
In the United States, a very small percentage of World Orthodoxy. Additionally registry for tax exemption does not in any way subjugate one to the state.
Quote
In Orthodoxy I never learned:
About the dangers of the evil psychological programming of music, television, and the main stream media.
Technological Determinism has been shown wrong time and again by study after study. It was an interesting theory when it came out 60 years ago, but there is nothing to it.

Quote
Most Orthodox Christians (in America) believe that Romans 13 means to follow your "governing authorities" such as the president, when our governing authorities are ourselves (the people).
Your governing authorities are your government. That means the people who make laws, not the people who elect people who make laws. Additionally it says to submit to authority, not follow. Two very different things.
Quote
I can only conclude from the book of Revelation that obviously is speaking of corrupt governments joining together that the Eastern Orthodox Church could very well fall into the "beast" system since it is completely within the governing system now.
That's your problem. You're reading the Apocalypse and interpreting it yourself. If you must read it, at least look at commentaries to see what the Fathers of the Church said. They know the faith much better than you or I.
Quote
Do you believe there is an inherent danger of the end days within the Orthodox church?  (I'm speaking of the vast majority and not all Orthodoxy)
No. There is however an inherent danger of the end days within Protestantism.

No, I can't submit to a servant, even if it's a public servant.

You are not afraid that the church is compliant to the ruling governments, "juiced into the system under 501c3", and commemorates those that will eventually serve the anti-Christ?

How about when the churches commemorated both the George Bush Jr & Sr.   They commemorated men who went and practiced at the Bohemian Grove and had Molech worship and were members of Masonic organizations.

I don't get how the Eastern Orthodox church does not teach to warn the people of such things.
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2011, 08:19:07 PM »

Not praying for government authorities is, I think, dangerous. We don't pray for them because they're good people, but because they, like all of us, are sinners. We pray that God guide them. How is this a bad thing?

This whole 501c3 thing is weird. Not that parishes do it, but that people make such a big deal about it. There's a reason behind it that helps protect the parish (at least from what I understand). This isn't the Byzantine or Russian Empires. We don't have Orthodox emperors taking care of everything.

I'm not sure how you can read Romans 13 and come to any other conclusion but that it's talking about the civil authorities. It's pretty clear. As was said before I began replying, the Church cannot fall. Christ, Himself, said that. I don't think there is any dangers that the Church cannot overcome. Individual people may fall, but the Church never will.

I read Romans 13 and I don't see it that way.  To me they are not "civil authorities", they are "public SERVANTS".   Servants are answerable to their masters, which are the people.

That seems to me a massive way-of-thinking anachronism there, yeshua.

Well seriously they are all called "public servants" here in America.
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« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2011, 08:22:15 PM »

Not praying for government authorities is, I think, dangerous. We don't pray for them because they're good people, but because they, like all of us, are sinners. We pray that God guide them. How is this a bad thing?

This whole 501c3 thing is weird. Not that parishes do it, but that people make such a big deal about it. There's a reason behind it that helps protect the parish (at least from what I understand). This isn't the Byzantine or Russian Empires. We don't have Orthodox emperors taking care of everything.

I'm not sure how you can read Romans 13 and come to any other conclusion but that it's talking about the civil authorities. It's pretty clear. As was said before I began replying, the Church cannot fall. Christ, Himself, said that. I don't think there is any dangers that the Church cannot overcome. Individual people may fall, but the Church never will.

I read Romans 13 and I don't see it that way.  To me they are not "civil authorities", they are "public SERVANTS".   Servants are answerable to their masters, which are the people.

That seems to me a massive way-of-thinking anachronism there, yeshua.

Well seriously they are all called "public servants" here in America.

I think I know where you're coming from, I'm just saying that the writers of the new testament could never have imagined a political/legal system built on principles like those of the American constitution ("we the people" and all that). It seems to me that Romans 13 must be talking about whoever is administering policy and the law. Whether those individuals are ultimately answerable to the people or not, they are the ones running the show for all intents and purposes.

I'm no expert on Paul or the American constitutional arrangements, so please correct me if I'm misunderstanding.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 08:22:51 PM by akimori makoto » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2011, 08:28:37 PM »

No, I can't submit to a servant, even if it's a public servant.
If you cannot submit to governing authority, then I suppose that is your issue with scripture. You'll have to sort it out for yourself.
Quote
You are not afraid that the church is compliant to the ruling governments, "juiced into the system under 501c3", and commemorates those that will eventually serve the anti-Christ?
As I said, "501c3" only applies to a very small percentage of Orthodox Churches. And no, I am not afraid of the church commemorating those who "will eventually serve the anti-Christ". Christ taught us to pray for our enemies (note: That is distinct from commemoration), so even if they are outright attacking us, we should continue to pray for them.
Quote
How about when the churches commemorated both the George Bush Jr & Sr.   They commemorated men who went and practiced at the Bohemian Grove and had Molech worship and were members of Masonic organizations.
Of course we should pray for those who are not part of the church. We should pray for them especially.
Quote
I don't get how the Eastern Orthodox church does not teach to warn the people of such things.
Of what? Your exegesis? They don't probably because we aren't protestants, and we don't believe personal exegesis to be of import.

I notice you didn't respond to what I said about technological determinism. Are you conceeding that point?
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« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2011, 08:28:37 PM »

I read Romans 13 and I don't see it that way.  To me they are not "civil authorities", they are "public SERVANTS".   Servants are answerable to their masters, which are the people.

I'm not sure what to say to get to you on this. Romans 13 says straight out "Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities." I don't know how you get anything besides that. Trying to use the term "public servant" to justify it doesn't make you right. The term "public servant" is to denote that the government works for us in that we elect them, etc. And, yes, they are answerable to us (that's what elections are for). But, if you don't agree with what law is being passed doesn't mean you can disregard it and do whatever you want. I don't agree with seatbelt laws. I don't agree with lawmakers that do, but I still have to follow the law. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean I get to go, "Well, that was made by a SERVANT, so I don't have to listen." The cop and judge are going to laugh at me while I'm writing the check to pay the fine.

We elect our governing authorities here. That's fine, but we still have to submit ourselves to them. To not do so would be disobedient and against God (laws that go against God are a whole different story). Just because we elect them and they, in a way, serve us, does not get rid of the requirement to submit ourselves to them.
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« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2011, 08:30:01 PM »

How about when the churches commemorated both the George Bush Jr & Sr.   They commemorated men who went and practiced at the Bohemian Grove and had Molech worship and were members of Masonic organizations.

What is a point in praying for sinless people?
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« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2011, 08:30:55 PM »

It's easier to submit to them if you agree with them, isn't it?
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« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2011, 08:36:00 PM »

I read Romans 13 and I don't see it that way.  To me they are not "civil authorities", they are "public SERVANTS".

Hurray!  More speculation and accusations from yeshuaisiam!  I have no problem with discussing the subject of the thread, but at least do so in a responsible way.  On this subject, I'm inclined to listen to the opinions of theologians, elders and the like, but not your wild ramblings and interpretations.

It's pretty transparent that you are highly critical of "world Orthodoxy."  Not only that, you are doubtful about the legitimacy of the Church itself, "world" or not.  In my eyes, this looks to be just another platform for you to launch attacks at Orthodoxy.  
« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 08:40:35 PM by Cognomen » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2011, 08:39:32 PM »

How about when the churches commemorated both the George Bush Jr & Sr.   They commemorated men who went and practiced at the Bohemian Grove and had Molech worship and were members of Masonic organizations.

What is a point in praying for sinless people?

This is ultimately the point he fails to grasp.

At the same time, most of his assertions are unfounded or at least unproved.  Oh I'm sure there is some website "proving" this dross about the Bohemian Grove, Molech (whatever these things are), and Masonic affiliation, so he accepts it as fact and expects us to do the same. 
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« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2011, 08:41:50 PM »

I'm seeing some anachronism concerning "civil authorities" mixed in with some Protestant Dispensationalism from the OP.

Just don't think about the end times. But, if you must...read the Fathers on the issue. John Darby wasn't very Christian, much less Orthodox. Don't try to interpret Scripture as if it were written by a 19th century American in the United Brethen Church.

Actually, don't try to interpret Scripture at all. Seek the truth from Holy Tradition. Sit at the feet of Mother Church, and listen.

Quote
How about when the churches commemorated both the George Bush Jr & Sr.   They commemorated men who went and practiced at the Bohemian Grove and had Molech worship and were members of Masonic organizations.

We're not commemorating these men as bishops, we're praying for mercy on their behalf, since they are the leaders of our nation. When St. Paul wrote the Church of Rome about commemorating the civil authorities, the Roman Emperor was Nero! You have issues with the Bushes...what would you think about commemorating a pagan tyrant who actively slaughtered people of your religion?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 08:48:00 PM by Benjamin the Red » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2011, 08:43:06 PM »

How about when the churches commemorated both the George Bush Jr & Sr.   They commemorated men who went and practiced at the Bohemian Grove and had Molech worship and were members of Masonic organizations.

What is a point in praying for sinless people?

This is ultimately the point he fails to grasp.

At the same time, most of his assertions are unfounded or at least unproved.  Oh I'm sure there is some website "proving" this dross about the Bohemian Grove, Molech (whatever these things are), and Masonic affiliation, so he accepts it as fact and expects us to do the same. 

Well there are photos
http://www.9-11-2001.com/bohemian-grove-photos/bohemian-grove-photos.html
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« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2011, 08:44:13 PM »

I read Romans 13 and I don't see it that way.  To me they are not "civil authorities", they are "public SERVANTS".

Hurray!  More speculation and accusations from yeshuaisiam!  I have no problem with discussing the subject of the thread, but at least do so in a responsible way.  On this subject, I'm inclined to listen to the opinions of theologians, elders and the like, but not your wild ramblings and interpretations.

It's pretty transparent that you are highly critical of "world Orthodoxy."  Not only that, you are doubtful about the legitimacy of the Church itself, "world" or not.  In my eyes, this looks to be just another platform for you to launch attacks at Orthodoxy.  

Okay so you are saying in America, police, politicians, and the president are not called "public servants".  ?
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« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2011, 08:44:46 PM »

Is world Orthodoxy a dangerous religion for the end days?  Yes.  And as you suspect, it probably will join forces with the Antichrist against the True Orthodox, whom even the Gates of Hell will not prevail.  Just because you dress like Liberace, wear funny hats, and maybe even commune with the EP, does not make you Orthodox.  It may make you "canonical", whatever that perversion of the term is supposed to mean, but it does not make you Orthodox.  There were times in the history of the Church that heretics and apostates had so overrun the visible organization calling itself the Church that many thought that the Church had ceased to exist.  Such were the times of Athanasius and Maximos.  So will it be again before Christ comes.  But, there always will be a remnant.
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« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2011, 08:46:43 PM »

How about when the churches commemorated both the George Bush Jr & Sr.   They commemorated men who went and practiced at the Bohemian Grove and had Molech worship and were members of Masonic organizations.

What is a point in praying for sinless people?

Heh, we pray to a sinless person...

I guess if you are saying "LORD HAVE MERCY!!!" that would be one way of doing it.

But to commemorate holds a place of honor.
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« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2011, 08:50:14 PM »

It's easier to submit to them if you agree with them, isn't it?

Yes and no.

I agree with Christ, and I submit to him.

In America we are the authority (the people).  We won that with bloodshed when we told King George to take a hike.  We the People are the boss, the authority, and are in charge. (at least we are supposed to be)

Though in Orthodoxy I fear respects the government as an authority, establishes 501c3 incorporation articles with them, and could very well be used by the government in the end times.  No doubt this happened in Russia (at one time).
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« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2011, 08:51:53 PM »

How about when the churches commemorated both the George Bush Jr & Sr.   They commemorated men who went and practiced at the Bohemian Grove and had Molech worship and were members of Masonic organizations.

What is a point in praying for sinless people?

Heh, we pray to a sinless person...

I guess if you are saying "LORD HAVE MERCY!!!" that would be one way of doing it.

But to commemorate holds a place of honor.

"For the president of the United States and all civil authorities and our armed forces everywhere, let us pray to the Lord."
"Lord, have mercy"

Where's the commemoration? I see a prayer.
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« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2011, 08:52:55 PM »

It's easier to submit to them if you agree with them, isn't it?

Yes and no.

I agree with Christ, and I submit to him.

In America we are the authority (the people).  We won that with bloodshed when we told King George to take a hike.  We the People are the boss, the authority, and are in charge. (at least we are supposed to be)

Though in Orthodoxy I fear respects the government as an authority, establishes 501c3 incorporation articles with them, and could very well be used by the government in the end times.  No doubt this happened in Russia (at one time).


Go get pulled over for breaking a law and tell the cop that. Let us know how it works out. As I said before, we do elect them, however, once we do, we must submit ourselves to them and the laws they enact.
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« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2011, 08:53:27 PM »

Well seriously they are all called "public servants" here in America.
Being a democratic republic, we are ultimately ruled by majority vote (even the electoral college traces back to the will of a voting majority). You are one man who disagrees with millions. Therefore, is not submitting to government simply submitting to this country's ruling majority?
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« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2011, 08:58:08 PM »

What is this world Orthodoxy business I keep hearing about?  Huh If anything, I think Nihilism and Islam are far more dangerous.

In Christ,
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« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2011, 09:05:31 PM »

Okay so you are saying in America, police, politicians, and the president are not called "public servants".  ?

I don't disagree with that point at all.  By the nature of republican democracy though, "public servants" are given a great deal of authority, and we should pray for them and that they use this power wisely.

I also believe that you frequently cite your own personal understanding and reading of things in order to make broader assertions.  I think you are doing this in this thread, and your personal take is not sufficient to answer the somewhat rhetorical question you asked.
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« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2011, 09:19:17 PM »

What is this world Orthodoxy business I keep hearing about?  Huh If anything, I think Nihilism and Islam are far more dangerous.

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« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2011, 09:43:59 PM »

Okay so you are saying in America, police, politicians, and the president are not called "public servants".  ?

I don't disagree with that point at all.  By the nature of republican democracy though, "public servants" are given a great deal of authority, and we should pray for them and that they use this power wisely.

Exactly.

Like him or hate him, the President was delegated vast and sweeping powers by the Electoral College when they cast their votes for him around the beginning of December 2008. Those powers are his until the Electoral College meets again in 2012, to either renew him or replace him. That is how our system works. And like him or hate him, the man needs our prayers.
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« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2011, 10:09:02 PM »

What is this world Orthodoxy business I keep hearing about?  Huh If anything, I think Nihilism and Islam are far more dangerous.

In Christ,
Andrew

The greatest danger is always from within, not without.  The Nihilists and the Moslems are no threat to us.  What can they do?  Kill us?  So what.  However, those that call themselves Orthodox but are not, they are the danger.  It is just like wartime.  When the enemy wears a uniform of his nation and he is captured, he is kept as a POW and treated in accordance with rules of law (hopefully).  However, when an enemy is caught wearing your uniform, he is treated as a spy and shot.  Why?  Because the traitor, spy, and enemy within is always more dangerous.
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« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2011, 10:20:15 PM »

What is this world Orthodoxy business I keep hearing about?  Huh If anything, I think Nihilism and Islam are far more dangerous.

In Christ,
Andrew

The greatest danger is always from within, not without.  The Nihilists and the Moslems are no threat to us.  What can they do?  Kill us?  So what.  However, those that call themselves Orthodox but are not, they are the danger.  It is just like wartime.  When the enemy wears a uniform of his nation and he is captured, he is kept as a POW and treated in accordance with rules of law (hopefully).  However, when an enemy is caught wearing your uniform, he is treated as a spy and shot.  Why?  Because the traitor, spy, and enemy within is always more dangerous.
I'd agree, but I was thinking spiritually dangerous and soul-destroying. Though people who are baptized Orthodox are not exempt from this either, I'm afraid.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2011, 10:36:32 PM »

Okay so you are saying in America, police, politicians, and the president are not called "public servants".  ?

I don't disagree with that point at all.  By the nature of republican democracy though, "public servants" are given a great deal of authority, and we should pray for them and that they use this power wisely.

Exactly.

Like him or hate him, the President was delegated vast and sweeping powers by the Electoral College when they cast their votes for him around the beginning of December 2008. Those powers are his until the Electoral College meets again in 2012, to either renew him or replace him. That is how our system works. And like him or hate him, the man needs our prayers.

Well, actually they are his until at least January of 2013, when the next President is sworn in, or Obama is sworn in again.
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« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2011, 11:03:31 PM »

The greatest danger is always from within, not without.  The Nihilists and the Moslems are no threat to us.  What can they do?  Kill us?  So what.

Can't Nihilism and Islam help prevent people outside the Church from reaching the true faith and salvation though?   

Quote
However, those that call themselves Orthodox but are not, they are the danger.  It is just like wartime.  When the enemy wears a uniform of his nation and he is captured, he is kept as a POW and treated in accordance with rules of law (hopefully).  However, when an enemy is caught wearing your uniform, he is treated as a spy and shot.  Why?  Because the traitor, spy, and enemy within is always more dangerous.

I do agree that this is a problem, but I'm cautious to claim we know who is and isn't a spy, traitor, enemy, etc. within the Church.  Some cases may be clear, but otherwise, who makes that determination?  I would say that Orthodoxy, "world" or not, has the potential to become dangerous, but that it is a tremendously good force and representative of Christ's Church. 
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« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2011, 11:13:10 PM »

Okay so you are saying in America, police, politicians, and the president are not called "public servants".  ?

I don't disagree with that point at all.  By the nature of republican democracy though, "public servants" are given a great deal of authority, and we should pray for them and that they use this power wisely.

Exactly.

Like him or hate him, the President was delegated vast and sweeping powers by the Electoral College when they cast their votes for him around the beginning of December 2008. Those powers are his until the Electoral College meets again in 2012, to either renew him or replace him. That is how our system works. And like him or hate him, the man needs our prayers.

Well, actually they are his until at least January of 2013, when the next President is sworn in, or Obama is sworn in again.

Ah yes, I forgot about the wonderful lame duck period. If there is anything I'd change about our electoral system it's that agonizing two-month gap.
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« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2011, 11:17:36 PM »

Many fear where there is nothing to fear, but do not fear what ought to be feared.

The choices others make are, fundamentally, nothing for me to fear. I only fear making the wrong choice for myself. If more people concentrated on their own choices rather than worrying about what might happen in the world, there may be less evil in the world presently, and perhaps at the world's end.

I don't think that any individual or group can prevent a person's salvation, if that person desires to be saved. Who can thwart God? Only the person who does not open the door when He knocks, not the masses mumbling outside, scorning the Knocker.
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« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2011, 11:47:51 PM »

I don't think that any individual or group can prevent a person's salvation, if that person desires to be saved. Who can thwart God? Only the person who does not open the door when He knocks, not the masses mumbling outside, scorning the Knocker.
Many people have not been properly exposed to Orthodox Christianity.  Referring to the examples given, for a Muslim or someone encompassed by Nihilism, desiring to be saved may not be the issue.  I don't think it's about an individual or group, but philosophies that steer people away from the Church.

Do we really feel no responsibility to fight against false philosophies and religions, and bring people to the Church?  I don't mean in a superficial, doorbell ringing kind of way.  Are we to tell people who are interested, "No, I wouldn't inquire further into Orthodoxy, it's a dangerous religion for the end of days."
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« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2011, 12:24:47 AM »

The greatest danger is always from within, not without.  The Nihilists and the Moslems are no threat to us.  What can they do?  Kill us?  So what.

Can't Nihilism and Islam help prevent people outside the Church from reaching the true faith and salvation though?   

Quote
However, those that call themselves Orthodox but are not, they are the danger.  It is just like wartime.  When the enemy wears a uniform of his nation and he is captured, he is kept as a POW and treated in accordance with rules of law (hopefully).  However, when an enemy is caught wearing your uniform, he is treated as a spy and shot.  Why?  Because the traitor, spy, and enemy within is always more dangerous.

I do agree that this is a problem, but I'm cautious to claim we know who is and isn't a spy, traitor, enemy, etc. within the Church.  Some cases may be clear, but otherwise, who makes that determination?  I would say that Orthodoxy, "world" or not, has the potential to become dangerous, but that it is a tremendously good force and representative of Christ's Church. 

Your concerns are accurate in my view, and further spell out the danger of internal threat.  External enemies make themselves known.  Those that espouse the doctrines of the enemy from within often are not known.  Who makes the determination?  Ultimately, we all do to some extent.  I believe, and have always believed, that every Orthodox Christian is bound by duty to study the Word of God, read diligently the Lives of the Saints, and attend the Services of the Church frequently.  They should also read the writings of the Fathers.   I have no use for the cultists that simply “show up” and have to run to a “spiritual father” for everything.  These are the ones that will be deceived first.

To a large extent, we can see the subtle beginnings of the end as we see our services stripped of much of the doctrinal content so important to the teaching of the people.  How many parishes still hear the entire Canon for Matins sung on Sunday?  How many just sing the Irmoi thereby robbing the Faithful of the doctrinal teaching of the hymns of the Church?  Are the Troparia still sung at the Beatitudes?  Not in any of the “world” Orthodox Churches that I have attended.  How many modern Churches still have Vespers?  All of these services contain the doctrine of the Church, when they are performed in their entirety.  As it is, most modern Orthodox Churches can fire through a Matins in less than an hour, and a Vespers in less time than that.  Combine that with the modern textual criticism taught in our Seminaries, and you have a two front attack.  First, you deny the Faithful the ability to hear the truth so they cannot recognize a lie, and then you start to introduce falsehood.  Where are we on this timeline? 

What makes “world” Orthodoxy dangerous is that it will slowly become a great deception.  A Christian will know not to trust Islam, or an Atheist, or a Jew.  But what happens when he tries to join himself to what he thinks is the Church, but is not?  We see this as early as the book of Revelations when Christ warns people of one of the seven Churches to beware of those that say they are Jews but are not.  A true Jew would have known the Savior, not reject him.  In the end, will “world” Orthodoxy be any different?

When will this happen?  Before the end must come the Great Apostasy.  But when exactly will that be?  Who knows?  We have been close many times, but have always been saved.  Perhaps we will be saved again this time.  Perhaps (and I truly wish this) we will not come close this time.  And who are the “world” Orthodox and the “True” Orthodox?  Again, who really knows?  Can any of us see into the heart of those around us and know what they really believe?  I believe that we will know them by their fruits.  When it becomes more and more difficult to tell the Orthodox from anyone else, we will be approaching that time that will usher in the end.  And it will not be the Moslems who will be “casting us out of the Synagogue”, but those who “call themselves Jews but are not”.  Our greatest enemies will be those that consider those who still try to believe and practice the Faith handed down to us as Schismatic.  They will call us “non-Canonical” as they violate every Canon in the book.  They will call us unloving as we refuse to drink the Kool-Aid of Ecumenism that they gulp down so readily.  And we will know them by their fruits.  Where are their Martyrs?  Where are their Saints?  Where are their Holy Men and Elders?  Where are their miracles?  If the Fathers were teleported into that time, would they recognize what they saw as Orthodox?

I don’t have these answers.  Many will suppose they do, but I have found the more that one thinks they know, the less they really know.   
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« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2011, 01:32:28 AM »

No, I can't submit to a servant
Must be difficult worshiping Jesus then.  laugh

How about when the churches commemorated both the George Bush Jr & Sr.   They commemorated men who went and practiced at the Bohemian Grove and had Molech worship and were members of Masonic organizations.
Bro, that Alex Jones stuff is brain poison. One of my friends practically went off the deep end because of that nonsense. =/

I've seen the Bohemian Grove video. It's just a typical nutty parlor/club/mason anachronism held over from the 19th Century. The stuff's a dime a dozen in America and western europe.
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« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2011, 05:14:30 AM »

I must say this is er, interesting from a Catholic perspective, especially my particular one. Having spent years having it dinned into my head in arguments with certain groups from the north of Ireland that the Catholic Church is the anti-Christ, the beast, the scarlet woman etc. I find it fascinating to hear it now applied to Orthodoxy. I notice the arguments are curiously similar yet also at the same time unique.

I think the OP is trying to fit Orthodoxy into American politics and that landscape whereas Orthodoxy is rather more all encompassing in it's historical reach and outlook.
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« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2011, 05:22:37 AM »

I think the OP is trying to fit Orthodoxy into American politics and that landscape whereas Orthodoxy is rather more all encompassing in it's historical reach and outlook.
You mean, the Ecumene doesn't start at Washington and end at Maine? Shocked
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« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2011, 05:38:03 AM »

How many parishes still hear the entire Canon for Matins sung on Sunday?

We don't have matins but we sing on a vigil.[/quote]

Quote
Are the Troparia still sung at the Beatitudes? Not in any of the “world” Orthodox Churches that I have attended.

They are everywhere in Poland.

Quote
How many modern Churches still have Vespers?

We don't have. We have a vigil instead.

Quote
Perhaps (and I truly wish this) we will not come close this time.  And who are the “world” Orthodox and the “True” Orthodox?  Again, who really knows?  Can any of us see into the heart of those around us and know what they really believe?

Don't you know what the visible boundaries of the Church are?

Quote
Where are their Martyrs?

AFAIK the most modern martyr is St. Eugene Rodionov.
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« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2011, 07:47:48 AM »

I think the OP is trying to fit Orthodoxy into American politics and that landscape whereas Orthodoxy is rather more all encompassing in it's historical reach and outlook.
You mean, the Ecumene doesn't start at Washington and end at Maine? Shocked

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Yorker#.22View_of_the_World.22_cover
Quote
Saul Steinberg created 85 covers and 642 internal drawings and illustrations for the magazine. His most famous work is probably its March 29, 1976 cover,[21] an illustration titled "View of the World from 9th Avenue", sometimes referred to as "A Parochial New Yorker's View of the World" or "A New Yorker's View of the World", which depicts a map of the world as seen by self-absorbed New Yorkers.
The illustration is split in two, with the bottom half of the image showing Manhattan's 9th Avenue, 10th Avenue, and the Hudson River (appropriately labeled), and the top half depicting the rest of the world. The rest of the United States is the size of the three New York City blocks and is drawn as a square, with a thin brown strip along the Hudson representing "Jersey", the names of five cities (Los Angeles; Washington, D.C.; Las Vegas; Kansas City; and Chicago) and three states (Texas, Utah, and Nebraska) scattered among a few rocks for the U.S. beyond New Jersey. The Pacific Ocean, perhaps half again as wide as the Hudson, separates the U.S. from three flattened land masses labeled China, Japan and Russia.
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« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2011, 08:15:46 AM »

Quote
No, I can't submit to a servant, even if it's a public servant.

You are not afraid that the church is compliant to the ruling governments, "juiced into the system under 501c3", and commemorates those that will eventually serve the anti-Christ?

How about when the churches commemorated both the George Bush Jr & Sr.   They commemorated men who went and practiced at the Bohemian Grove and had Molech worship and were members of Masonic organizations.

I don't get how the Eastern Orthodox church does not teach to warn the people of such things.

Because the concerns of the  Orthodox Churches and your concerns (or certain websites) are not mirrors of each other. Although it is worth pointing out the Orthodox Churches do condemn Freemasonry, however you have made a series of rather large charges against Bush senior and junior which are not particularly well supported.

America is not the world and a very small minority of the Eastern Orthodox world wide reside there.
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« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2011, 09:52:59 AM »

Quote

I went to the link and the first thing that struck me is that Richard Nixon wasnt Vice President in 1967, Hubert Humphrey was Under LBJ....just thought I should share.

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« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2011, 10:53:46 AM »



Quote
Perhaps (and I truly wish this) we will not come close this time.  And who are the “world” Orthodox and the “True” Orthodox?  Again, who really knows?  Can any of us see into the heart of those around us and know what they really believe?

Don't you know what the visible boundaries of the Church are?



I know what each side claims they are.  I do not necessarily believe either one.
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« Reply #45 on: June 07, 2011, 10:54:18 AM »

A wise priest of blessed memory once answered a young person's question about the 'end times' at a summer camp many years ago when I was a counselor. (That kind of dates the advice, doesn't it?)  Smiley

He told us that we should always remember that we MAY be living in the end times, but that we were not to obsess about that. It is far more important he said to live each day in the HERE and NOW, following the commandments of our Lord and the teachings of our Church.

He reminded us that Christians from the St. Paul on down through history lived their life fully expecting that they were living in the 'end times' and they all died without having been there. If this were so important to the teachings of the Church in terms of daily living, he believed that the church would have died out centuries ago from the lack of the end. The sola scriptura heresies and self-interpretation of Scripture is not what we believe and he concluded by stating a harsh truth which was if that is want you chose to believe then Orthodoxy is not for you.


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« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2011, 11:00:40 AM »

The greatest danger is always from within, not without.  The Nihilists and the Moslems are no threat to us.  What can they do?  Kill us?  So what.

Can't Nihilism and Islam help prevent people outside the Church from reaching the true faith and salvation though?   

Quote
However, those that call themselves Orthodox but are not, they are the danger.  It is just like wartime.  When the enemy wears a uniform of his nation and he is captured, he is kept as a POW and treated in accordance with rules of law (hopefully).  However, when an enemy is caught wearing your uniform, he is treated as a spy and shot.  Why?  Because the traitor, spy, and enemy within is always more dangerous.

I do agree that this is a problem, but I'm cautious to claim we know who is and isn't a spy, traitor, enemy, etc. within the Church.  Some cases may be clear, but otherwise, who makes that determination?  I would say that Orthodoxy, "world" or not, has the potential to become dangerous, but that it is a tremendously good force and representative of Christ's Church. 

Your concerns are accurate in my view, and further spell out the danger of internal threat.  External enemies make themselves known.  Those that espouse the doctrines of the enemy from within often are not known.  Who makes the determination?  Ultimately, we all do to some extent.  I believe, and have always believed, that every Orthodox Christian is bound by duty to study the Word of God, read diligently the Lives of the Saints, and attend the Services of the Church frequently.  They should also read the writings of the Fathers.   I have no use for the cultists that simply “show up” and have to run to a “spiritual father” for everything.  These are the ones that will be deceived first.

To a large extent, we can see the subtle beginnings of the end as we see our services stripped of much of the doctrinal content so important to the teaching of the people.  How many parishes still hear the entire Canon for Matins sung on Sunday?  How many just sing the Irmoi thereby robbing the Faithful of the doctrinal teaching of the hymns of the Church?  Are the Troparia still sung at the Beatitudes?  Not in any of the “world” Orthodox Churches that I have attended.  How many modern Churches still have Vespers?  All of these services contain the doctrine of the Church, when they are performed in their entirety.  As it is, most modern Orthodox Churches can fire through a Matins in less than an hour, and a Vespers in less time than that.  Combine that with the modern textual criticism taught in our Seminaries, and you have a two front attack.  First, you deny the Faithful the ability to hear the truth so they cannot recognize a lie, and then you start to introduce falsehood.  Where are we on this timeline? 

What makes “world” Orthodoxy dangerous is that it will slowly become a great deception.  A Christian will know not to trust Islam, or an Atheist, or a Jew.  But what happens when he tries to join himself to what he thinks is the Church, but is not?  We see this as early as the book of Revelations when Christ warns people of one of the seven Churches to beware of those that say they are Jews but are not.  A true Jew would have known the Savior, not reject him.  In the end, will “world” Orthodoxy be any different?

When will this happen?  Before the end must come the Great Apostasy.  But when exactly will that be?  Who knows?  We have been close many times, but have always been saved.  Perhaps we will be saved again this time.  Perhaps (and I truly wish this) we will not come close this time.  And who are the “world” Orthodox and the “True” Orthodox?  Again, who really knows?  Can any of us see into the heart of those around us and know what they really believe?  I believe that we will know them by their fruits.  When it becomes more and more difficult to tell the Orthodox from anyone else, we will be approaching that time that will usher in the end.  And it will not be the Moslems who will be “casting us out of the Synagogue”, but those who “call themselves Jews but are not”.  Our greatest enemies will be those that consider those who still try to believe and practice the Faith handed down to us as Schismatic.  They will call us “non-Canonical” as they violate every Canon in the book.  They will call us unloving as we refuse to drink the Kool-Aid of Ecumenism that they gulp down so readily.  And we will know them by their fruits.  Where are their Martyrs?  Where are their Saints?  Where are their Holy Men and Elders?  Where are their miracles?  If the Fathers were teleported into that time, would they recognize what they saw as Orthodox?

I don’t have these answers.  Many will suppose they do, but I have found the more that one thinks they know, the less they really know.   


Perhaps I missed the memo or the text message, Punch.

Isn't your own New Gracanica Metropolitanate of the Serbian Orthodox in North and South America part of the 'world' Orthodox you so seem to fear and despise. All of their links on their Webpage are to to canonical Orthodox churches of the 'world' (ugh, I HATE that term) Orthodox communion.

Give us a break. If you are so concerned about your salvation, perhaps you ought to find a 'true' Orthodox Church to join.  Sorry if I am harsh, but I tire of those who attack, attack and attack the spirituality of others without any understanding, foundation, true knowledge or charity in their hearts.
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« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2011, 11:16:02 AM »

I think the OP is trying to fit Orthodoxy into American politics and that landscape whereas Orthodoxy is rather more all encompassing in it's historical reach and outlook.
You mean, the Ecumene doesn't start at Washington and end at Maine? Shocked

No, no, I'm quite sure that it doesn't (whether you mean Washington State to Maine or Washington D.C. to Maine.  Grin

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« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2011, 03:14:40 PM »

It's easier to submit to them if you agree with them, isn't it?

Yes and no.

I agree with Christ, and I submit to him.

In America we are the authority (the people).  We won that with bloodshed when we told King George to take a hike.  We the People are the boss, the authority, and are in charge. (at least we are supposed to be)

Though in Orthodoxy I fear respects the government as an authority, establishes 501c3 incorporation articles with them, and could very well be used by the government in the end times.  No doubt this happened in Russia (at one time).


Go get pulled over for breaking a law and tell the cop that. Let us know how it works out. As I said before, we do elect them, however, once we do, we must submit ourselves to them and the laws they enact.

I would not mind saying that a cop is a public servant.  They are members of the executive branch of government.
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« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2011, 03:20:04 PM »

No, I can't submit to a servant
Must be difficult worshiping Jesus then.  laugh

How about when the churches commemorated both the George Bush Jr & Sr.   They commemorated men who went and practiced at the Bohemian Grove and had Molech worship and were members of Masonic organizations.
Bro, that Alex Jones stuff is brain poison. One of my friends practically went off the deep end because of that nonsense. =/

I've seen the Bohemian Grove video. It's just a typical nutty parlor/club/mason anachronism held over from the 19th Century. The stuff's a dime a dozen in America and western europe.

Well unfortunately, it's our world leaders going to this club.  Just google the Bohemian grove book.  Your friend was right to go off the deep end.  It's not every day you get to witness the "Christian conservative leaders" going to the Grove worshiping Molech.
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« Reply #50 on: June 07, 2011, 03:23:19 PM »

A wise priest of blessed memory once answered a young person's question about the 'end times' at a summer camp many years ago when I was a counselor. (That kind of dates the advice, doesn't it?)  Smiley

He told us that we should always remember that we MAY be living in the end times, but that we were not to obsess about that. It is far more important he said to live each day in the HERE and NOW, following the commandments of our Lord and the teachings of our Church.

He reminded us that Christians from the St. Paul on down through history lived their life fully expecting that they were living in the 'end times' and they all died without having been there. If this were so important to the teachings of the Church in terms of daily living, he believed that the church would have died out centuries ago from the lack of the end. The sola scriptura heresies and self-interpretation of Scripture is not what we believe and he concluded by stating a harsh truth which was if that is want you chose to believe then Orthodoxy is not for you.

I'd like to ask that priest what the point of Revelation was then?

If we are not to worry about the end days, then there should have been no point of including it in the Bible.

Obviously somewhere in history, the Orthodox Church found it very important, in fact important enough to include a book about the very subject.  If the priest wants to ignore the scriptures, then perhaps he's the one that Orthodoxy is not for.  Sola Scriptura is from the Protestants/Luther and is heretical without doubt.  But so is ignora the scripturas.
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« Reply #51 on: June 07, 2011, 03:29:46 PM »

Is world Orthodoxy a dangerous religion for the end days?  Yes.  And as you suspect, it probably will join forces with the Antichrist against the True Orthodox, whom even the Gates of Hell will not prevail.  Just because you dress like Liberace, wear funny hats, and maybe even commune with the EP, does not make you Orthodox.  It may make you "canonical", whatever that perversion of the term is supposed to mean, but it does not make you Orthodox.  There were times in the history of the Church that heretics and apostates had so overrun the visible organization calling itself the Church that many thought that the Church had ceased to exist.  Such were the times of Athanasius and Maximos.  So will it be again before Christ comes.  But, there always will be a remnant.

Agreed.  Orthodoxy is Orthodox.  That's the point I'm trying to relay so often here.

These New World Order "Bishops" practicing heretical ecumenism and giving chalices and holding worship with other faiths is a prelude to a one world religion.  I believe so many are blind to this, or at least don't want to see it.   So many don't have a problem with a Lutheran priest receiving a chalice from an ecumenical patriarch, or those ecumenical patriarchs holding services with Roman Catholics and protestants directly after tribal pagan worship was held in the same facility.

It's almost like watching sheep go to the slaughter.   World leaders engaged in Molech worship, "ORTHODOX" bishops (ECUMENICAL PATRIARCHS!!!) holding worship with the non-orthodox, dollar value constantly dropping to be propped up my the imf, debts exploding and we are close to an inflationary currency crisis... Yeah I see it...

One world religion.
One world currency.
One world government under currency regulation.

Chump that in with a cupful of Romans 13 ordered by the governments down to the churches, and you'll have World Orthodox Christians by the church full ready for the mark of the beast.  Especially if the mark regulates food rations.

Sorry that is how I see it guys.
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« Reply #52 on: June 07, 2011, 03:32:08 PM »

A wise priest of blessed memory once answered a young person's question about the 'end times' at a summer camp many years ago when I was a counselor. (That kind of dates the advice, doesn't it?)  Smiley

He told us that we should always remember that we MAY be living in the end times, but that we were not to obsess about that. It is far more important he said to live each day in the HERE and NOW, following the commandments of our Lord and the teachings of our Church.

He reminded us that Christians from the St. Paul on down through history lived their life fully expecting that they were living in the 'end times' and they all died without having been there. If this were so important to the teachings of the Church in terms of daily living, he believed that the church would have died out centuries ago from the lack of the end. The sola scriptura heresies and self-interpretation of Scripture is not what we believe and he concluded by stating a harsh truth which was if that is want you chose to believe then Orthodoxy is not for you.

I'd like to ask that priest what the point of Revelation was then?

If we are not to worry about the end days, then there should have been no point of including it in the Bible.

Obviously somewhere in history, the Orthodox Church found it very important, in fact important enough to include a book about the very subject.  If the priest wants to ignore the scriptures, then perhaps he's the one that Orthodoxy is not for.  Sola Scriptura is from the Protestants/Luther and is heretical without doubt.  But so is ignora the scripturas.

Sigh...He didn't 'ignore' Revelations.

Read this 'q and a' posted by the OCA. http://www.oca.org/QA.asp?ID=37&SID=3. It is an excellent Orthodox catechetical explanation. 

"So, if it appears that Orthodoxy has not said much about the end times, it may be because we have read so little of what the Church Fathers write about this, or it may be because the Orthodox Church cannot reveal things that have not been revealed. The basic message of Christ is to live according to God's will and that, if we do, we will have not worry for the future. This is a recurring theme in the words and teaching of Jesus Christ."  [/u][/color]

If you want to stick to your own interpretations, so be it, but they do not seem consistent with the teachings of the Orthodox Faith.
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« Reply #53 on: June 07, 2011, 03:34:49 PM »


Quote


Go get pulled over for breaking a law and tell the cop that. Let us know how it works out. As I said before, we do elect them, however, once we do, we must submit ourselves to them and the laws they enact.

I would not mind saying that a cop is a public servant.  They are members of the executive branch of government.

Public "servants" who have the job of trying to ensure the safety of the people.  Things like traffic laws which are intended (generally) to prevent accidents, injury and death.  Are Traffic laws for public safety not to be enforced by the police regarding your driving because they are public servants and you won't "submit" to them?

 Huh
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« Reply #54 on: June 07, 2011, 03:35:21 PM »

Yeshuaisiam merging  synagogal worship into the Liturgy OK and sharing gifts with Episcopalians not OK?
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« Reply #55 on: June 07, 2011, 03:36:27 PM »

Sorry that is how I see it guys.


Through the eyes of John Nelson Darby. Seriously, leave these heretical paradigms and begin to acquire the phronema of the Church.
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« Reply #56 on: June 07, 2011, 03:49:19 PM »


Agreed.  Orthodoxy is Orthodox.  That's the point I'm trying to relay so often here.

These New World Order "Bishops" practicing heretical ecumenism and giving chalices and holding worship with other faiths is a prelude to a one world religion.  I believe so many are blind to this, or at least don't want to see it.   So many don't have a problem with a Lutheran priest receiving a chalice from an ecumenical patriarch, or those ecumenical patriarchs holding services with Roman Catholics and protestants directly after tribal pagan worship was held in the same facility.


 Huh  Please correct me if I am in error, but you are not a member of any EO Church yet/at this time or have you been in the past?  Yet you are making declarations about clergy and putting quotation marks around the title of Bishop? Who are you to decide that they are not really Bishops?

I'm not EO but would never have the presumption to think that I as a layperson and not of their jurisdiction could judge and make pronouncements about other Churches' clergy. 

What incident are you referring to with a Lutheran pastor and an EP please?  What "tribal pagan worship" are you writing about? 

With respect,

Ebor

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« Reply #57 on: June 07, 2011, 04:22:38 PM »

The greatest danger is always from within, not without.  The Nihilists and the Moslems are no threat to us.  What can they do?  Kill us?  So what.

Can't Nihilism and Islam help prevent people outside the Church from reaching the true faith and salvation though?   

Quote
However, those that call themselves Orthodox but are not, they are the danger.  It is just like wartime.  When the enemy wears a uniform of his nation and he is captured, he is kept as a POW and treated in accordance with rules of law (hopefully).  However, when an enemy is caught wearing your uniform, he is treated as a spy and shot.  Why?  Because the traitor, spy, and enemy within is always more dangerous.

I do agree that this is a problem, but I'm cautious to claim we know who is and isn't a spy, traitor, enemy, etc. within the Church.  Some cases may be clear, but otherwise, who makes that determination?  I would say that Orthodoxy, "world" or not, has the potential to become dangerous, but that it is a tremendously good force and representative of Christ's Church. 

Your concerns are accurate in my view, and further spell out the danger of internal threat.  External enemies make themselves known.  Those that espouse the doctrines of the enemy from within often are not known.  Who makes the determination?  Ultimately, we all do to some extent.  I believe, and have always believed, that every Orthodox Christian is bound by duty to study the Word of God, read diligently the Lives of the Saints, and attend the Services of the Church frequently.  They should also read the writings of the Fathers.   I have no use for the cultists that simply “show up” and have to run to a “spiritual father” for everything.  These are the ones that will be deceived first.

To a large extent, we can see the subtle beginnings of the end as we see our services stripped of much of the doctrinal content so important to the teaching of the people.  How many parishes still hear the entire Canon for Matins sung on Sunday?  How many just sing the Irmoi thereby robbing the Faithful of the doctrinal teaching of the hymns of the Church?  Are the Troparia still sung at the Beatitudes?  Not in any of the “world” Orthodox Churches that I have attended.  How many modern Churches still have Vespers?  All of these services contain the doctrine of the Church, when they are performed in their entirety.  As it is, most modern Orthodox Churches can fire through a Matins in less than an hour, and a Vespers in less time than that.  Combine that with the modern textual criticism taught in our Seminaries, and you have a two front attack.  First, you deny the Faithful the ability to hear the truth so they cannot recognize a lie, and then you start to introduce falsehood.  Where are we on this timeline? 

What makes “world” Orthodoxy dangerous is that it will slowly become a great deception.  A Christian will know not to trust Islam, or an Atheist, or a Jew.  But what happens when he tries to join himself to what he thinks is the Church, but is not?  We see this as early as the book of Revelations when Christ warns people of one of the seven Churches to beware of those that say they are Jews but are not.  A true Jew would have known the Savior, not reject him.  In the end, will “world” Orthodoxy be any different?

When will this happen?  Before the end must come the Great Apostasy.  But when exactly will that be?  Who knows?  We have been close many times, but have always been saved.  Perhaps we will be saved again this time.  Perhaps (and I truly wish this) we will not come close this time.  And who are the “world” Orthodox and the “True” Orthodox?  Again, who really knows?  Can any of us see into the heart of those around us and know what they really believe?  I believe that we will know them by their fruits.  When it becomes more and more difficult to tell the Orthodox from anyone else, we will be approaching that time that will usher in the end.  And it will not be the Moslems who will be “casting us out of the Synagogue”, but those who “call themselves Jews but are not”.  Our greatest enemies will be those that consider those who still try to believe and practice the Faith handed down to us as Schismatic.  They will call us “non-Canonical” as they violate every Canon in the book.  They will call us unloving as we refuse to drink the Kool-Aid of Ecumenism that they gulp down so readily.  And we will know them by their fruits.  Where are their Martyrs?  Where are their Saints?  Where are their Holy Men and Elders?  Where are their miracles?  If the Fathers were teleported into that time, would they recognize what they saw as Orthodox?

I don’t have these answers.  Many will suppose they do, but I have found the more that one thinks they know, the less they really know.   


Perhaps I missed the memo or the text message, Punch.

Isn't your own New Gracanica Metropolitanate of the Serbian Orthodox in North and South America part of the 'world' Orthodox you so seem to fear and despise. All of their links on their Webpage are to to canonical Orthodox churches of the 'world' (ugh, I HATE that term) Orthodox communion.

Give us a break. If you are so concerned about your salvation, perhaps you ought to find a 'true' Orthodox Church to join.  Sorry if I am harsh, but I tire of those who attack, attack and attack the spirituality of others without any understanding, foundation, true knowledge or charity in their hearts.

No, what you may have missed is basic literacy.  Had you read closely, you would have noticed that I was careful to put the terms “world” and “True” in quotes, and even go so far as to question who actually deserved those terms.  Truth be told, I dislike the terms as much as you do.  I also like the terms “True” and “Canonical” even less.

As to attacking the spirituality of others, which person or Church did I attack?  If the shoe fits, wear it.  Otherwise, leave it there for the ones who it does fit.  For my part, I think that more than 40 years of reading the Scriptures and studying them has given me a reasonable idea of what the shoe looks like.  I tend to avoid those that wear it, and seek the company of those that do not.  I do not yet see the shoe to be part of the uniform of any particular jurisdiction.  As the end nears, we will see more and more wear that shoe.  As to where we are now?  Again, all I did was question.  It is, however, interesting to see who takes offense.   
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« Reply #58 on: June 07, 2011, 04:26:21 PM »

Quote
They are members of the executive branch of government.
Yeshuaisiam, Im sorry to tell you that police are not members of the executive branch of government.

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« Reply #59 on: June 07, 2011, 04:32:27 PM »

I'm not EO but would never have the presumption to think that I as a layperson and not of their jurisdiction could judge and make pronouncements about other Churches' clergy. 

What incident are you referring to with a Lutheran pastor and an EP please?  What "tribal pagan worship" are you writing about?

Random internet website with pictures and "definitive PROOF!!!" forthcoming.

I think there are legitimate issues to discuss, but yeshuaisiam has no standing to make these determinations.  He has his own idea of what scriptural passages mean and how they should be applied, how churches should be decorated, what liturgies should be composed of, and how we are all wrong (East, West, RC, Orthodox, Protestant) in how we refer to Jesus.  Of course he's entitled to his opinions, but he in no way represents an Orthodox opinion. 
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« Reply #60 on: June 07, 2011, 04:35:50 PM »

Yeshuaisiam, Im sorry to tell you that police are not members of the executive branch of government.
Ahh, then you've been duped too.  Local and state police (usually the ones conducting traffic stops) are all part of the NEW WORLD ORDER and secretly part of the Melochazaam worshiping, Executive Branch, headquartered at the Bohemian Grove.
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« Reply #61 on: June 07, 2011, 04:40:54 PM »

Yeshuaisiam, Im sorry to tell you that police are not members of the executive branch of government.
Ahh, then you've been duped too.  Local and state police (usually the ones conducting traffic stops) are all part of the NEW WORLD ORDER and secretly part of the Melochazaam worshiping, Executive Branch, headquartered at the Bohemian Grove.

Wow.

I hate to break it to you, yes, police are part of the executive branch of Government.  They do not write laws or judge laws, they enforce the law.  That is the executive branch.  Simply look it up.   
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« Reply #62 on: June 07, 2011, 04:46:20 PM »

Sorry mate. The police are not federal. They are city and state funded, therefore not under the jurisdiction of the federal government. Simply ask your city councilman.

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« Reply #63 on: June 07, 2011, 04:49:45 PM »

I do have to concede one thing to my favorite comspiracy theorist (yes, you yeshuaisiam, you're my fav Smiley ).....look up Rex 85...scary stuff...and totally real.

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« Reply #64 on: June 07, 2011, 04:58:36 PM »

I'm not EO but would never have the presumption to think that I as a layperson and not of their jurisdiction could judge and make pronouncements about other Churches' clergy. 

What incident are you referring to with a Lutheran pastor and an EP please?  What "tribal pagan worship" are you writing about?

Random internet website with pictures and "definitive PROOF!!!" forthcoming.

I think there are legitimate issues to discuss, but yeshuaisiam has no standing to make these determinations.  He has his own idea of what scriptural passages mean and how they should be applied, how churches should be decorated, what liturgies should be composed of, and how we are all wrong (East, West, RC, Orthodox, Protestant) in how we refer to Jesus.  Of course he's entitled to his opinions, but he in no way represents an Orthodox opinion. 

So Cognomen thinks I have no standing to make these determinations, yet Cognomen has no idea of who I am, nor in reality does he have any determinations to make standings on me.

Saying I have no idea of what scriptural passages mean is a bad assumption.  I know how churches are decorated.  I know what liturgies are composed of and I think I've proven that several times.   I've been an Eastern Orthodox Christian for many years, lived at St. Vladimir's seminary in New York, and have spent countless hours around Eastern Orthodox Christians.

Cognomen practices the art of cognitive dissonance.  I wish you wouldn't.  Just because you don't want to accept something doesn't mean that you should stubbornly battle against it.  His name is Yeshua in Aramaic.   I know that bugs you.   Guess what?  His name was Yeshua anyway.   It's what God was called here on Earth.  Yeshua.  NOT Jesus.    Jesus came out of the Greek transliterations of the Aramaic.

Guess what? I think I do represent an Orthodox opinion.  Perhaps not your "Orthodox" opinion.

There was once a church that truly existed before 325 A.D.  It was the Orthodox church.  There really wasn't an iconostasis either in those days.  Like it or not... It's true.  So if you think I don't know how a church should be decorated, perhaps you should really look at your own church, because the church that I strive to follow, was decorated a world away from your church.

My interpretation of Romans 13 is not an interpretation of the scripture, it is an interpretation of the American government.   They are my servants.  Blood was spilled for that freedom.  They are not my governing authorities.  They are not my kings nor Caesar.  They are bound by Oath (albeit Masonic) to serve me (Protect and defend the constitution).  That makes them subjective to me.  

If you believe this way, you will get the mark of the beast because they will use Romans 13 against you most likely through your church.  Revelation is very clear that it will be coming from the governments, which the vast majority of worldwide churches are juiced in with their governments.

This is NOT all Eastern Orthodoxy.   I believe some are seeing this today.
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« Reply #65 on: June 07, 2011, 04:59:29 PM »

Sorry mate. The police are not federal. They are city and state funded, therefore not under the jurisdiction of the federal government. Simply ask your city councilman.

primuspilus

Doesn't matter.  Local government is Executive, Legislative, and Judicial too.  Local police are local executive branch.
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« Reply #66 on: June 07, 2011, 05:04:22 PM »

Sorry mate. The police are not federal. They are city and state funded, therefore not under the jurisdiction of the federal government. Simply ask your city councilman.

primuspilus

Doesn't matter.  Local government is Executive, Legislative, and Judicial too.  Local police are local executive branch.

Actually no, under common law in the United States, local governments derive their powers solely from the sovereign. There is no true separation of powers on the local level as enshrined in the Federal constitution. Local powers are either statutory or charter based.
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« Reply #67 on: June 07, 2011, 05:04:38 PM »

I do have to concede one thing to my favorite comspiracy theorist (yes, you yeshuaisiam, you're my fav Smiley ).....look up Rex 85...scary stuff...and totally real.

primuspilus

Thanks,, but I would not consider myself a conspiracy theorist.  That kind a term that casts off one as a tin foil hat person. (kind of koo koo)

Seriously.   I just want to know what I am saying is wrong.

1.  The Bohemian Grove exists and world leaders attend it.
2.  In America everybody working for the government are "public servants".
3.  Most World Orthodox churches are somewhat intertwined with the governments of their countries (which Revelation speaks of the beast system coming through).

Thanks for being decent though primuspilus and engaging in rational respectful conversation rather than childish ugliness.  Wink
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« Reply #68 on: June 07, 2011, 05:04:53 PM »

The greatest danger is always from within, not without.  The Nihilists and the Moslems are no threat to us.  What can they do?  Kill us?  So what.

Can't Nihilism and Islam help prevent people outside the Church from reaching the true faith and salvation though?   

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However, those that call themselves Orthodox but are not, they are the danger.  It is just like wartime.  When the enemy wears a uniform of his nation and he is captured, he is kept as a POW and treated in accordance with rules of law (hopefully).  However, when an enemy is caught wearing your uniform, he is treated as a spy and shot.  Why?  Because the traitor, spy, and enemy within is always more dangerous.

I do agree that this is a problem, but I'm cautious to claim we know who is and isn't a spy, traitor, enemy, etc. within the Church.  Some cases may be clear, but otherwise, who makes that determination?  I would say that Orthodoxy, "world" or not, has the potential to become dangerous, but that it is a tremendously good force and representative of Christ's Church. 

Your concerns are accurate in my view, and further spell out the danger of internal threat.  External enemies make themselves known.  Those that espouse the doctrines of the enemy from within often are not known.  Who makes the determination?  Ultimately, we all do to some extent.  I believe, and have always believed, that every Orthodox Christian is bound by duty to study the Word of God, read diligently the Lives of the Saints, and attend the Services of the Church frequently.  They should also read the writings of the Fathers.   I have no use for the cultists that simply “show up” and have to run to a “spiritual father” for everything.  These are the ones that will be deceived first.

To a large extent, we can see the subtle beginnings of the end as we see our services stripped of much of the doctrinal content so important to the teaching of the people.  How many parishes still hear the entire Canon for Matins sung on Sunday?  How many just sing the Irmoi thereby robbing the Faithful of the doctrinal teaching of the hymns of the Church?  Are the Troparia still sung at the Beatitudes?  Not in any of the “world” Orthodox Churches that I have attended.  How many modern Churches still have Vespers?  All of these services contain the doctrine of the Church, when they are performed in their entirety.  As it is, most modern Orthodox Churches can fire through a Matins in less than an hour, and a Vespers in less time than that.  Combine that with the modern textual criticism taught in our Seminaries, and you have a two front attack.  First, you deny the Faithful the ability to hear the truth so they cannot recognize a lie, and then you start to introduce falsehood.  Where are we on this timeline? 

What makes “world” Orthodoxy dangerous is that it will slowly become a great deception.  A Christian will know not to trust Islam, or an Atheist, or a Jew.  But what happens when he tries to join himself to what he thinks is the Church, but is not?  We see this as early as the book of Revelations when Christ warns people of one of the seven Churches to beware of those that say they are Jews but are not.  A true Jew would have known the Savior, not reject him.  In the end, will “world” Orthodoxy be any different?

When will this happen?  Before the end must come the Great Apostasy.  But when exactly will that be?  Who knows?  We have been close many times, but have always been saved.  Perhaps we will be saved again this time.  Perhaps (and I truly wish this) we will not come close this time.  And who are the “world” Orthodox and the “True” Orthodox?  Again, who really knows?  Can any of us see into the heart of those around us and know what they really believe?  I believe that we will know them by their fruits.  When it becomes more and more difficult to tell the Orthodox from anyone else, we will be approaching that time that will usher in the end.  And it will not be the Moslems who will be “casting us out of the Synagogue”, but those who “call themselves Jews but are not”.  Our greatest enemies will be those that consider those who still try to believe and practice the Faith handed down to us as Schismatic.  They will call us “non-Canonical” as they violate every Canon in the book.  They will call us unloving as we refuse to drink the Kool-Aid of Ecumenism that they gulp down so readily.  And we will know them by their fruits.  Where are their Martyrs?  Where are their Saints?  Where are their Holy Men and Elders?  Where are their miracles?  If the Fathers were teleported into that time, would they recognize what they saw as Orthodox?

I don’t have these answers.  Many will suppose they do, but I have found the more that one thinks they know, the less they really know.   


Perhaps I missed the memo or the text message, Punch.

Isn't your own New Gracanica Metropolitanate of the Serbian Orthodox in North and South America part of the 'world' Orthodox you so seem to fear and despise. All of their links on their Webpage are to to canonical Orthodox churches of the 'world' (ugh, I HATE that term) Orthodox communion.

Give us a break. If you are so concerned about your salvation, perhaps you ought to find a 'true' Orthodox Church to join.  Sorry if I am harsh, but I tire of those who attack, attack and attack the spirituality of others without any understanding, foundation, true knowledge or charity in their hearts.

No, what you may have missed is basic literacy.  Had you read closely, you would have noticed that I was careful to put the terms “world” and “True” in quotes, and even go so far as to question who actually deserved those terms.  Truth be told, I dislike the terms as much as you do.  I also like the terms “True” and “Canonical” even less.

As to attacking the spirituality of others, which person or Church did I attack?  If the shoe fits, wear it.  Otherwise, leave it there for the ones who it does fit.  For my part, I think that more than 40 years of reading the Scriptures and studying them has given me a reasonable idea of what the shoe looks like.  I tend to avoid those that wear it, and seek the company of those that do not.  I do not yet see the shoe to be part of the uniform of any particular jurisdiction.  As the end nears, we will see more and more wear that shoe.  As to where we are now?  Again, all I did was question.  It is, however, interesting to see who takes offense.   


I stand by what I said. Subtlety is not your strength. You may put 'quotes' around the words, but your meaning comes through clearly time and time again in your posts. Your condescending attitude about your perception of your own knowledge and the alleged lack of the same in others is never far beneath the surface. Bene orasse est bene studuisse.
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« Reply #69 on: June 07, 2011, 05:07:15 PM »

No, I can't submit to a servant
Must be difficult worshiping Jesus then.  laugh

How about when the churches commemorated both the George Bush Jr & Sr.   They commemorated men who went and practiced at the Bohemian Grove and had Molech worship and were members of Masonic organizations.
Bro, that Alex Jones stuff is brain poison. One of my friends practically went off the deep end because of that nonsense. =/

I've seen the Bohemian Grove video. It's just a typical nutty parlor/club/mason anachronism held over from the 19th Century. The stuff's a dime a dozen in America and western europe.

Well unfortunately, it's our world leaders going to this club.  Just google the Bohemian grove book.  Your friend was right to go off the deep end.  It's not every day you get to witness the "Christian conservative leaders" going to the Grove worshiping Molech.
Molech is not an owl, despite what Alex Jones's demented ravings may have led you to believe. They are not worshiping their bizaare pseudo-ritual, it's just a vestige of 19th century parlorism.
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« Reply #70 on: June 07, 2011, 05:08:43 PM »

 So if you think I don't know how a church should be decorated

Don't you think God likes our beautiful icons?
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« Reply #71 on: June 07, 2011, 05:11:24 PM »

Sorry mate. The police are not federal. They are city and state funded, therefore not under the jurisdiction of the federal government. Simply ask your city councilman.

primuspilus

Doesn't matter.  Local government is Executive, Legislative, and Judicial too.  Local police are local executive branch.

Actually no, under common law in the United States, local governments derive their powers solely from the sovereign. There is no true separation of powers on the local level as enshrined in the Federal constitution. Local powers are either statutory or charter based.

No, they are executive, even local. (Unless they work directly for the courts, then its quasi judicial and executive)
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_branch_are_police_officers_part_of
http://www.enotes.com/law/discuss/within-which-3-branches-governments-legislati-84067
http://www.ehow.com/facts_5760863_executive-branch-government-work_.html

Anyway, this wasn't the point of this thread.
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« Reply #72 on: June 07, 2011, 05:17:03 PM »

 So if you think I don't know how a church should be decorated

Don't you think God likes our beautiful icons?

I don't know.  I know everything else God made looks nothing like icons.  Mountains, rivers, volcanoes, snow...  People don't have halos for example.
I don't think it really matters to God at all.  What good does an icon really do (at least for me)?    God (Father), nor Jesus/Yeshua has ever asked for us to make icons at all.  We were really asked to love one another, golden rule, follow the commandments, wash each other's feet, have communion, forgive, it's really simple to explain, very difficult to practice.   

Icons, incense, prostrations, chants, bowing, veneration of hands-relics-icons-etc, all this we were not told to do.    They are pretty easy things to do.  I just call it all "fluff".  Uneeded things that need too much explanation.

I think any EO Christian can agree that icons and incense is not a necessary, so I don't accuse or call it wrong.  It's just fluff.

The question is does God want "fluff"?
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« Reply #73 on: June 07, 2011, 05:19:00 PM »

No, I can't submit to a servant
Must be difficult worshiping Jesus then.  laugh

How about when the churches commemorated both the George Bush Jr & Sr.   They commemorated men who went and practiced at the Bohemian Grove and had Molech worship and were members of Masonic organizations.
Bro, that Alex Jones stuff is brain poison. One of my friends practically went off the deep end because of that nonsense. =/

I've seen the Bohemian Grove video. It's just a typical nutty parlor/club/mason anachronism held over from the 19th Century. The stuff's a dime a dozen in America and western europe.

Well unfortunately, it's our world leaders going to this club.  Just google the Bohemian grove book.  Your friend was right to go off the deep end.  It's not every day you get to witness the "Christian conservative leaders" going to the Grove worshiping Molech.
Molech is not an owl, despite what Alex Jones's demented ravings may have led you to believe. They are not worshiping their bizaare pseudo-ritual, it's just a vestige of 19th century parlorism.

It's not all from Alex Jones.  I don't know why everybody thinks Molech is all from Alex Jones.

Molech has been portrayed by a bull or  horned owl in much of history.
Despite what any of MAY or MAY NOT think it is.... Really doesn't matter.

The point is world leaders gather around this rather CREEPY thing and hold rituals to it. 
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« Reply #74 on: June 07, 2011, 05:24:31 PM »


Agreed.  Orthodoxy is Orthodox.  That's the point I'm trying to relay so often here.

These New World Order "Bishops" practicing heretical ecumenism and giving chalices and holding worship with other faiths is a prelude to a one world religion.  I believe so many are blind to this, or at least don't want to see it.   So many don't have a problem with a Lutheran priest receiving a chalice from an ecumenical patriarch, or those ecumenical patriarchs holding services with Roman Catholics and protestants directly after tribal pagan worship was held in the same facility.


 Huh  Please correct me if I am in error, but you are not a member of any EO Church yet/at this time or have you been in the past?  Yet you are making declarations about clergy and putting quotation marks around the title of Bishop? Who are you to decide that they are not really Bishops?

I'm not EO but would never have the presumption to think that I as a layperson and not of their jurisdiction could judge and make pronouncements about other Churches' clergy. 

What incident are you referring to with a Lutheran pastor and an EP please?  What "tribal pagan worship" are you writing about? 

With respect,

Ebor

I do not give recognition to a person calling themselves an Eastern Orthodox Bishop, when they held worship with those outside of the Eastern Orthodox church.  They broke the Canon of the Holy Apostles law, and it calls for them to be defrocked.   That's why I put "Bishop" in quotes.

I frankly don't know exactly what I am as far as church goes.  I am trying to find the church practices of pre-Nicea.  But I have been heavily a part of Eastern Orthodoxy for most of my life.   

I'm not the only one either.  There are many Bishops out there who do not recognize these ecumenists are Bishops (and Patriarchs).
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« Reply #75 on: June 07, 2011, 05:30:53 PM »

The question is does God want "fluff"?
He wanted "fluff" on His Holy Ark, His Holy Temple, His Holy Altar, etc.

God doesn't need it, but He knows it does something. The New Covenant is not devoid of the involvement of material creation.

I think any EO Christian can agree that icons and incense is not a necessary
By "not necessary" do you mean that it's ok if such things aren't available, or do you mean that it's alright to refuse to use them in worship when they are available?

Molech has been portrayed by a... horned owl in much of history.
If that's true, can you find a legit picture?
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« Reply #76 on: June 07, 2011, 05:33:13 PM »

God (Father), nor Jesus/Yeshua has ever asked for us to make icons at all.

Ever heard of it:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abgar_V_of_Edessa  

Quote
incense, prostrations, chants, bowing, veneration of hands-relics-icons-etc, all this we were not told to do.

Apocalypse, resurrecting after touching the relics of the Prophet Elijah...

Quote
I think any EO Christian can agree that icons and incense is not a necessary

You think wrong.
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« Reply #77 on: June 07, 2011, 05:40:21 PM »

The question is does God want "fluff"?
He wanted "fluff" on His Holy Ark, His Holy Temple, His Holy Altar, etc.

God doesn't need it, but He knows it does something. The New Covenant is not devoid of the involvement of material creation.

I think any EO Christian can agree that icons and incense is not a necessary
By "not necessary" do you mean that it's ok if such things aren't available, or do you mean that it's alright to refuse to use them in worship when they are available?

Molech has been portrayed by a... horned owl in much of history.
If that's true, can you find a legit picture?

I can't find a picture because they did not have cameras in those days.  J/K - there are only drawings.  But I've read it in books, and there are internet links available on it.  Some of the books were Jewish.

By not necessary I believe it is okay if you do not want to use these things.  Can you pray anywhere?  The answer is of course.  Does the prayer mean anything more with incense and and icon?  I don't think so.

The new covenant is not full of the "fluff", the riches, etc. that the Old Testament has.  I'm not saying its wrong, so don't get me wrong... I'm just saying I don't think God really cares about these things anymore or else Jesus Christ would have asked for them.  
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« Reply #78 on: June 07, 2011, 05:41:37 PM »

The new covenant is not full of the "fluff", the riches, etc. that the Old Testament has.  I'm not saying its wrong, so don't get me wrong... I'm just saying I don't think God really cares about these things anymore or else Jesus Christ would have asked for them.  
Why didn't God let Judas donate Mary of Bethany's expensive perfume?

I can't find a picture because they did not have cameras in those days.  J/K - there are only drawings.    
Drawings from the first millenium BC?

See, I'm contending that the notion of Molech being an owl is an invention of recent centuries by forgers and people who were in error and who can't prove their assertions. I don't mind being proven wrong on this, but until evidence appears it's looking like a falsehood.
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« Reply #79 on: June 07, 2011, 05:44:40 PM »

By not necessary I believe it is okay if you do not want to use these things.  Can you pray anywhere?  The answer is of course.  Does the prayer mean anything more with incense and and icon?  I don't think so.
There's a difference between praying somewhere where there are no icons and deliberately avoiding icons in a place of prayer which has them.

The latter is condemned by the Seventh Ecumenical Council.

You can read about it here:

http://saintjohnorthodox.org/SYNODKN.pdf
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« Reply #80 on: June 07, 2011, 05:47:46 PM »

God (Father), nor Jesus/Yeshua has ever asked for us to make icons at all.

Ever heard of it:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abgar_V_of_Edessa  

Quote
incense, prostrations, chants, bowing, veneration of hands-relics-icons-etc, all this we were not told to do.

Apocalypse, resurrecting after touching the relics of the Prophet Elijah...

Quote
I think any EO Christian can agree that icons and incense is not a necessary

You think wrong.

Yes I've heard of it.  Abgar the guy who got Jesus's letter....  You know that was based on "stories and Legends" right?

Touching is different than veneration.

Wow, when did it become necessary?  Is there a Canon law that icons and incense must be used?
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« Reply #81 on: June 07, 2011, 05:48:34 PM »

By not necessary I believe it is okay if you do not want to use these things.  Can you pray anywhere?  The answer is of course.  Does the prayer mean anything more with incense and and icon?  I don't think so.
There's a difference between praying somewhere where there are no icons and deliberately avoiding icons in a place of prayer which has them.

The latter is condemned by the Seventh Ecumenical Council.

You can read about it here:

http://saintjohnorthodox.org/SYNODKN.pdf

Of course you understand that I'm saying it's not WRONG, but not necessary.   That's why I call it "fluff".  Fluff is "good stuff" but didn't have to be there.
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« Reply #82 on: June 07, 2011, 05:48:59 PM »

You have a tendency to either misunderstand or misrepresent what people write.  Allow me to demonstrate:

So Cognomen thinks I have no standing to make these determinations, yet Cognomen has no idea of who I am, nor in reality does he have any determinations to make standings on me.
I do have an idea, based on what you have posted on this forum.  My determinations are based on what I have read here.

Quote
Saying I have no idea of what scriptural passages mean is a bad assumption.  I know how churches are decorated.  I know what liturgies are composed of and I think I've proven that several times.
I never claimed that you didn't have any idea of a scriptural passage's meaning, or didn't know how churches are decorated, or know what liturgies are composed of.  I have claimed that you place a great deal of emphasis on your interpretation and on how you believe the Orthodox Church should act.  To the Orthodox Church of Christ, your personal reading and understanding of scripture, opinion of church decoration, etc. means very little. 

Quote
Cognomen practices the art of cognitive dissonance.  I wish you wouldn't.  Just because you don't want to accept something doesn't mean that you should stubbornly battle against it.  His name is Yeshua in Aramaic.   I know that bugs you.   Guess what?  His name was Yeshua anyway.   It's what God was called here on Earth.  Yeshua.  NOT Jesus.    Jesus came out of the Greek transliterations of the Aramaic.

I'm sure you would prefer if I would go along with all of your poorly developed conspiracies. Of course I don't disagree with Jesus' name being Yesuah in Aramaic, but from your introduction to this forum you have pushed this.  Obviously his disciples didn't feel the Aramaic form of his name was crucial and neither has the Church, ever.  Why don't you speak Aramaic yourself?  Again, this is just another example of you determining how things should be done, and assuming that you know better than the collective and very ancient tradition of the Church.  Your view represents a deep distrust of the Church, even the ancient one, and the belief that you know better.  I find this extraordinarily arrogant and unhelpful.

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Guess what? I think I do represent an Orthodox opinion.  Perhaps not your "Orthodox" opinion.
Yes, and so does the May 21st/Oct 21st rapture pastor.  Of course you think your opinion is Orthodox.  The Orthodox Church begs to differ.

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There was once a church that truly existed before 325 A.D.  It was the Orthodox church.  There really wasn't an iconostasis either in those days.  Like it or not... It's true.  So if you think I don't know how a church should be decorated, perhaps you should really look at your own church, because the church that I strive to follow, was decorated a world away from your church.
You have to realize how strikingly similar your argument is to much of secular and Protestant thought.  Having studied the early Church, I don't find this modern narrative of the real church immediately falling apart and then being recreated in Imperial fashion by Constantine and his cronies compelling.  This sort of understanding isn't too far from the silly rant given in the DaVinci code.

Yes, things have changed, the liturgy has evolved, the decorations have evolved.  This is part of the true Church, and does not represent any substantial shift in understanding of the faith.  Is St. Catherine's monastery graceless because it has icons and incense?  You can choose to disagree, but you are not a part of the Orthodox Church, nor do you actually wish to be.  You are loyal to this myth of the absolutely perfect, untarnished Church of pre-325.  Good luck recreating that.  Many have tried and it frequently results in silliness.

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My interpretation of Romans 13 is not an interpretation of the scripture, it is an interpretation of the American government.   They are my servants.  Blood was spilled for that freedom.  They are not my governing authorities.  They are not my kings nor Caesar.  They are bound by Oath (albeit Masonic) to serve me (Protect and defend the constitution).  That makes them subjective to me.

As usual, I think you have a naive and fairly odd understanding of this.  You're entitled to your opinion, but because government workers are referred to as civil servants, does not mean that they are your personal servant, subject to your wishes and demands.  You are not their king.  Others have tried to explain this to you, but you retain this understanding.

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If you believe this way, you will get the mark of the beast because they will use Romans 13 against you most likely through your church.  Revelation is very clear that it will be coming from the governments, which the vast majority of worldwide churches are juiced in with their governments.

Nuh, uh... You will get the mark of the beast.   Undecided  Really?   

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« Reply #83 on: June 07, 2011, 05:51:59 PM »

Of course you understand that I'm saying it's not WRONG, but not necessary.
Necessary for what?

For us to "get into heaven"?
For our prayer to go up to God?

Of course you can "go to heaven" without owning or venerating an icon because there aren't any around (but without venerating living icons? Perhaps not. Perhaps not...)

God always hears our prayers. The icons or incense don't magically make this happen.

But is it necessary to have icons in church if you have the means and knowledge?

I think so.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2011, 05:52:14 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #84 on: June 07, 2011, 05:56:30 PM »

You have a tendency to either misunderstand or misrepresent what people write.  Allow me to demonstrate:

So Cognomen thinks I have no standing to make these determinations, yet Cognomen has no idea of who I am, nor in reality does he have any determinations to make standings on me.
I do have an idea, based on what you have posted on this forum.  My determinations are based on what I have read here.

Quote
Saying I have no idea of what scriptural passages mean is a bad assumption.  I know how churches are decorated.  I know what liturgies are composed of and I think I've proven that several times.
I never claimed that you didn't have any idea of a scriptural passage's meaning, or didn't know how churches are decorated, or know what liturgies are composed of.  I have claimed that you place a great deal of emphasis on your interpretation and on how you believe the Orthodox Church should act.  To the Orthodox Church of Christ, your personal reading and understanding of scripture, opinion of church decoration, etc. means very little. 

Random internet website with pictures and "definitive PROOF!!!" forthcoming.

I think there are legitimate issues to discuss, but yeshuaisiam has no standing to make these determinations.  He has his own idea of what scriptural passages mean and how they should be applied, how churches should be decorated, what liturgies should be composed of, and how we are all wrong (East, West, RC, Orthodox, Protestant) in how we refer to Jesus.  Of course he's entitled to his opinions, but he in no way represents an Orthodox opinion. 

Quote
Cognomen practices the art of cognitive dissonance.  I wish you wouldn't.  Just because you don't want to accept something doesn't mean that you should stubbornly battle against it.  His name is Yeshua in Aramaic.   I know that bugs you.   Guess what?  His name was Yeshua anyway.   It's what God was called here on Earth.  Yeshua.  NOT Jesus.    Jesus came out of the Greek transliterations of the Aramaic.

I'm sure you would prefer if I would go along with all of your poorly developed conspiracies. Of course I don't disagree with Jesus' name being Yesuah in Aramaic, but from your introduction to this forum you have pushed this.  Obviously his disciples didn't feel the Aramaic form of his name was crucial and neither has the Church, ever.  Why don't you speak Aramaic yourself?  Again, this is just another example of you determining how things should be done, and assuming that you know better than the collective and very ancient tradition of the Church.  Your view represents a deep distrust of the Church, even the ancient one, and the belief that you know better.  I find this extraordinarily arrogant and unhelpful.

Quote
Guess what? I think I do represent an Orthodox opinion.  Perhaps not your "Orthodox" opinion.
Yes, and so does the May 21st/Oct 21st rapture pastor.  Of course you think your opinion is Orthodox.  The Orthodox Church begs to differ.

Quote
There was once a church that truly existed before 325 A.D.  It was the Orthodox church.  There really wasn't an iconostasis either in those days.  Like it or not... It's true.  So if you think I don't know how a church should be decorated, perhaps you should really look at your own church, because the church that I strive to follow, was decorated a world away from your church.
You have to realize how strikingly similar your argument is to much of secular and Protestant thought.  Having studied the early Church, I don't find this modern narrative of the real church immediately falling apart and then being recreated in Imperial fashion by Constantine and his cronies compelling.  This sort of understanding isn't too far from the silly rant given in the DaVinci code.

Yes, things have changed, the liturgy has evolved, the decorations have evolved.  This is part of the true Church, and does not represent any substantial shift in understanding of the faith.  Is St. Catherine's monastery graceless because it has icons and incense?  You can choose to disagree, but you are not a part of the Orthodox Church, nor do you actually wish to be.  You are loyal to this myth of the absolutely perfect, untarnished Church of pre-325.  Good luck recreating that.  Many have tried and it frequently results in silliness.

Quote
My interpretation of Romans 13 is not an interpretation of the scripture, it is an interpretation of the American government.   They are my servants.  Blood was spilled for that freedom.  They are not my governing authorities.  They are not my kings nor Caesar.  They are bound by Oath (albeit Masonic) to serve me (Protect and defend the constitution).  That makes them subjective to me.

As usual, I think you have a naive and fairly odd understanding of this.  You're entitled to your opinion, but because government workers are referred to as civil servants, does not mean that they are your personal servant, subject to your wishes and demands.  You are not their king.  Others have tried to explain this to you, but you retain this understanding.

Quote
If you believe this way, you will get the mark of the beast because they will use Romans 13 against you most likely through your church.  Revelation is very clear that it will be coming from the governments, which the vast majority of worldwide churches are juiced in with their governments.

Nuh, uh... You will get the mark of the beast.   Undecided  Really?   

I guess I'll agree to disagree.
I don't think of government as my personal servant, they are OUR servants.  (If you are American)

Now, on to my point, do you feel WORLD ORTHODOX churches will be tied in with the governments who serve the Anti-Christ?
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« Reply #85 on: June 07, 2011, 05:58:25 PM »

Now, on to my point, do you feel WORLD ORTHODOX churches will be tied in with the governments who serve the Anti-Christ?
Some of all churches and bodies on earth will. Including Old Calendarists, Old Believers, Milan Synod, Genuine Orthodox Church, True Orthodox Church, Synods in Resistance, etc.
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« Reply #86 on: June 07, 2011, 06:03:49 PM »

Now, on to my point, do you feel WORLD ORTHODOX churches will be tied in with the governments who serve the Anti-Christ?
Some of all churches and bodies on earth will.
This reflects my belief as well.
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« Reply #87 on: June 07, 2011, 06:32:25 PM »

Darn it, I keep getting you two mixed up via your similar avatars. :p

I do not give recognition to a person calling themselves an Eastern Orthodox Bishop, when they held worship with those outside of the Eastern Orthodox church.  They broke the Canon of the Holy Apostles law, and it calls for them to be defrocked.   That's why I put "Bishop" in quotes.
So how do you decide which canons to follow and which not to, Carnack? Icons=not needed, Being defrocked for worship with heretics=essential?
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« Reply #88 on: June 07, 2011, 08:16:04 PM »

Now, on to my point, do you feel WORLD ORTHODOX churches will be tied in with the governments who serve the Anti-Christ?
Some of all churches and bodies on earth will. Including Old Calendarists, Old Believers, Milan Synod, Genuine Orthodox Church, True Orthodox Church, Synods in Resistance, etc.

I do agree with you.   

Let's try not to be included.   angel
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