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Author Topic: Is world Orthodoxy a dangerous religion for the end days?  (Read 4243 times) Average Rating: 0
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yeshuaisiam
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« on: June 06, 2011, 07:20:52 PM »

In Orthodoxy exists:

Commemoration of the government, president, and the military.
Registered to the state as a corporation (a legal person) under 501c3.

In Orthodoxy I never learned:
About the dangers of the evil psychological programming of music, television, and the main stream media.

Most Orthodox Christians (in America) believe that Romans 13 means to follow your "governing authorities" such as the president, when our governing authorities are ourselves (the people).

I can only conclude from the book of Revelation that obviously is speaking of corrupt governments joining together that the Eastern Orthodox Church could very well fall into the "beast" system since it is completely within the governing system now.

Do you believe there is an inherent danger of the end days within the Orthodox church?  (I'm speaking of the vast majority and not all Orthodoxy)
« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 07:24:37 PM by yeshuaisiam » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2011, 07:43:53 PM »

In Orthodoxy exists:

Commemoration of the government, president, and the military.
Registered to the state as a corporation (a legal person) under 501c3.

According to the IRS, churches receive an automatic exemption and do not need to register under 501c3. Whether they do or not is their call.

Quote
In Orthodoxy I never learned:
About the dangers of the evil psychological programming of music, television, and the main stream media.

The Church's responsibility is the spiritual health of the people. Anything else should be your responsibility. I don't want or need the clergy holding my hand on such things.

Quote
Most Orthodox Christians (in America) believe that Romans 13 means to follow your "governing authorities" such as the president, when our governing authorities are ourselves (the people).

The United States is a republic, not a democracy.

Quote
I can only conclude from the book of Revelation that obviously is speaking of corrupt governments joining together that the Eastern Orthodox Church could very well fall into the "beast" system since it is completely within the governing system now.

The Orthodox Church was founded by God and can never fall. The faithful may be tempted.

Quote
Do you believe there is an inherent danger of the end days within the Orthodox church?  (I'm speaking of the vast majority and not all Orthodoxy)

I consider it very unhealthy to speculate on the Endtimes. I have seen many prophecies. My time and efforts are better served working on my own salvation. I trust in God take care of His Church.

Quote from: Mark 4:35-41
On the same day, when evening had come, He said to them, “Let us cross over to the other side.” Now when they had left the multitude, they took Him along in the boat as He was. And other little boats were also with Him. And a great windstorm arose, and the waves beat into the boat, so that it was already filling. But He was in the stern, asleep on a pillow. And they awoke Him and said to Him, “Teacher, do You not care that we are perishing?”
Then He arose and rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, “Peace, be still!” And the wind ceased and there was a great calm. But He said to them, “Why are you so fearful? How is it that you have no faith?” And they feared exceedingly, and said to one another, “Who can this be, that even the wind and the sea obey Him!”
« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 07:44:21 PM by John of the North » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2011, 07:50:58 PM »

Not praying for government authorities is, I think, dangerous. We don't pray for them because they're good people, but because they, like all of us, are sinners. We pray that God guide them. How is this a bad thing?

This whole 501c3 thing is weird. Not that parishes do it, but that people make such a big deal about it. There's a reason behind it that helps protect the parish (at least from what I understand). This isn't the Byzantine or Russian Empires. We don't have Orthodox emperors taking care of everything.

I'm not sure how you can read Romans 13 and come to any other conclusion but that it's talking about the civil authorities. It's pretty clear. As was said before I began replying, the Church cannot fall. Christ, Himself, said that. I don't think there is any dangers that the Church cannot overcome. Individual people may fall, but the Church never will.
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2011, 08:09:45 PM »

In Orthodoxy exists:

Commemoration of the government, president, and the military.
Registered to the state as a corporation (a legal person) under 501c3.

According to the IRS, churches receive an automatic exemption and do not need to register under 501c3. Whether they do or not is their call.

Quote
In Orthodoxy I never learned:
About the dangers of the evil psychological programming of music, television, and the main stream media.

The Church's responsibility is the spiritual health of the people. Anything else should be your responsibility. I don't want or need the clergy holding my hand on such things.

Quote
Most Orthodox Christians (in America) believe that Romans 13 means to follow your "governing authorities" such as the president, when our governing authorities are ourselves (the people).

The United States is a republic, not a democracy.

Quote
I can only conclude from the book of Revelation that obviously is speaking of corrupt governments joining together that the Eastern Orthodox Church could very well fall into the "beast" system since it is completely within the governing system now.

The Orthodox Church was founded by God and can never fall. The faithful may be tempted.

Quote
Do you believe there is an inherent danger of the end days within the Orthodox church?  (I'm speaking of the vast majority and not all Orthodoxy)

I consider it very unhealthy to speculate on the Endtimes. I have seen many prophecies. My time and efforts are better served working on my own salvation. I trust in God take care of His Church.

Quote from: Mark 4:35-41
On the same day, when evening had come, He said to them, “Let us cross over to the other side.” Now when they had left the multitude, they took Him along in the boat as He was. And other little boats were also with Him. And a great windstorm arose, and the waves beat into the boat, so that it was already filling. But He was in the stern, asleep on a pillow. And they awoke Him and said to Him, “Teacher, do You not care that we are perishing?”
Then He arose and rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, “Peace, be still!” And the wind ceased and there was a great calm. But He said to them, “Why are you so fearful? How is it that you have no faith?” And they feared exceedingly, and said to one another, “Who can this be, that even the wind and the sea obey Him!”

That's right, it's a constitutional Republic where the people are in charge.
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« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2011, 08:11:06 PM »

Commemoration of the government, president, and the military.
Prayer for leadership is hardly saying you'll follow them mindlessly.
Quote
Registered to the state as a corporation (a legal person) under 501c3.
In the United States, a very small percentage of World Orthodoxy. Additionally registry for tax exemption does not in any way subjugate one to the state.
Quote
In Orthodoxy I never learned:
About the dangers of the evil psychological programming of music, television, and the main stream media.
Technological Determinism has been shown wrong time and again by study after study. It was an interesting theory when it came out 60 years ago, but there is nothing to it.

Quote
Most Orthodox Christians (in America) believe that Romans 13 means to follow your "governing authorities" such as the president, when our governing authorities are ourselves (the people).
Your governing authorities are your government. That means the people who make laws, not the people who elect people who make laws. Additionally it says to submit to authority, not follow. Two very different things.
Quote
I can only conclude from the book of Revelation that obviously is speaking of corrupt governments joining together that the Eastern Orthodox Church could very well fall into the "beast" system since it is completely within the governing system now.
That's your problem. You're reading the Apocalypse and interpreting it yourself. If you must read it, at least look at commentaries to see what the Fathers of the Church said. They know the faith much better than you or I.
Quote
Do you believe there is an inherent danger of the end days within the Orthodox church?  (I'm speaking of the vast majority and not all Orthodoxy)
No. There is however an inherent danger of the end days within Protestantism.
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2011, 08:11:50 PM »

Not praying for government authorities is, I think, dangerous. We don't pray for them because they're good people, but because they, like all of us, are sinners. We pray that God guide them. How is this a bad thing?

This whole 501c3 thing is weird. Not that parishes do it, but that people make such a big deal about it. There's a reason behind it that helps protect the parish (at least from what I understand). This isn't the Byzantine or Russian Empires. We don't have Orthodox emperors taking care of everything.

I'm not sure how you can read Romans 13 and come to any other conclusion but that it's talking about the civil authorities. It's pretty clear. As was said before I began replying, the Church cannot fall. Christ, Himself, said that. I don't think there is any dangers that the Church cannot overcome. Individual people may fall, but the Church never will.

I read Romans 13 and I don't see it that way.  To me they are not "civil authorities", they are "public SERVANTS".   Servants are answerable to their masters, which are the people.
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« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2011, 08:15:36 PM »

Not praying for government authorities is, I think, dangerous. We don't pray for them because they're good people, but because they, like all of us, are sinners. We pray that God guide them. How is this a bad thing?

This whole 501c3 thing is weird. Not that parishes do it, but that people make such a big deal about it. There's a reason behind it that helps protect the parish (at least from what I understand). This isn't the Byzantine or Russian Empires. We don't have Orthodox emperors taking care of everything.

I'm not sure how you can read Romans 13 and come to any other conclusion but that it's talking about the civil authorities. It's pretty clear. As was said before I began replying, the Church cannot fall. Christ, Himself, said that. I don't think there is any dangers that the Church cannot overcome. Individual people may fall, but the Church never will.

I read Romans 13 and I don't see it that way.  To me they are not "civil authorities", they are "public SERVANTS".   Servants are answerable to their masters, which are the people.

That seems to me a massive way-of-thinking anachronism there, yeshua.
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« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2011, 08:17:49 PM »

Commemoration of the government, president, and the military.
Prayer for leadership is hardly saying you'll follow them mindlessly.
Quote
Registered to the state as a corporation (a legal person) under 501c3.
In the United States, a very small percentage of World Orthodoxy. Additionally registry for tax exemption does not in any way subjugate one to the state.
Quote
In Orthodoxy I never learned:
About the dangers of the evil psychological programming of music, television, and the main stream media.
Technological Determinism has been shown wrong time and again by study after study. It was an interesting theory when it came out 60 years ago, but there is nothing to it.

Quote
Most Orthodox Christians (in America) believe that Romans 13 means to follow your "governing authorities" such as the president, when our governing authorities are ourselves (the people).
Your governing authorities are your government. That means the people who make laws, not the people who elect people who make laws. Additionally it says to submit to authority, not follow. Two very different things.
Quote
I can only conclude from the book of Revelation that obviously is speaking of corrupt governments joining together that the Eastern Orthodox Church could very well fall into the "beast" system since it is completely within the governing system now.
That's your problem. You're reading the Apocalypse and interpreting it yourself. If you must read it, at least look at commentaries to see what the Fathers of the Church said. They know the faith much better than you or I.
Quote
Do you believe there is an inherent danger of the end days within the Orthodox church?  (I'm speaking of the vast majority and not all Orthodoxy)
No. There is however an inherent danger of the end days within Protestantism.

No, I can't submit to a servant, even if it's a public servant.

You are not afraid that the church is compliant to the ruling governments, "juiced into the system under 501c3", and commemorates those that will eventually serve the anti-Christ?

How about when the churches commemorated both the George Bush Jr & Sr.   They commemorated men who went and practiced at the Bohemian Grove and had Molech worship and were members of Masonic organizations.

I don't get how the Eastern Orthodox church does not teach to warn the people of such things.
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2011, 08:19:07 PM »

Not praying for government authorities is, I think, dangerous. We don't pray for them because they're good people, but because they, like all of us, are sinners. We pray that God guide them. How is this a bad thing?

This whole 501c3 thing is weird. Not that parishes do it, but that people make such a big deal about it. There's a reason behind it that helps protect the parish (at least from what I understand). This isn't the Byzantine or Russian Empires. We don't have Orthodox emperors taking care of everything.

I'm not sure how you can read Romans 13 and come to any other conclusion but that it's talking about the civil authorities. It's pretty clear. As was said before I began replying, the Church cannot fall. Christ, Himself, said that. I don't think there is any dangers that the Church cannot overcome. Individual people may fall, but the Church never will.

I read Romans 13 and I don't see it that way.  To me they are not "civil authorities", they are "public SERVANTS".   Servants are answerable to their masters, which are the people.

That seems to me a massive way-of-thinking anachronism there, yeshua.

Well seriously they are all called "public servants" here in America.
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akimori makoto
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« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2011, 08:22:15 PM »

Not praying for government authorities is, I think, dangerous. We don't pray for them because they're good people, but because they, like all of us, are sinners. We pray that God guide them. How is this a bad thing?

This whole 501c3 thing is weird. Not that parishes do it, but that people make such a big deal about it. There's a reason behind it that helps protect the parish (at least from what I understand). This isn't the Byzantine or Russian Empires. We don't have Orthodox emperors taking care of everything.

I'm not sure how you can read Romans 13 and come to any other conclusion but that it's talking about the civil authorities. It's pretty clear. As was said before I began replying, the Church cannot fall. Christ, Himself, said that. I don't think there is any dangers that the Church cannot overcome. Individual people may fall, but the Church never will.

I read Romans 13 and I don't see it that way.  To me they are not "civil authorities", they are "public SERVANTS".   Servants are answerable to their masters, which are the people.

That seems to me a massive way-of-thinking anachronism there, yeshua.

Well seriously they are all called "public servants" here in America.

I think I know where you're coming from, I'm just saying that the writers of the new testament could never have imagined a political/legal system built on principles like those of the American constitution ("we the people" and all that). It seems to me that Romans 13 must be talking about whoever is administering policy and the law. Whether those individuals are ultimately answerable to the people or not, they are the ones running the show for all intents and purposes.

I'm no expert on Paul or the American constitutional arrangements, so please correct me if I'm misunderstanding.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 08:22:51 PM by akimori makoto » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2011, 08:28:37 PM »

No, I can't submit to a servant, even if it's a public servant.
If you cannot submit to governing authority, then I suppose that is your issue with scripture. You'll have to sort it out for yourself.
Quote
You are not afraid that the church is compliant to the ruling governments, "juiced into the system under 501c3", and commemorates those that will eventually serve the anti-Christ?
As I said, "501c3" only applies to a very small percentage of Orthodox Churches. And no, I am not afraid of the church commemorating those who "will eventually serve the anti-Christ". Christ taught us to pray for our enemies (note: That is distinct from commemoration), so even if they are outright attacking us, we should continue to pray for them.
Quote
How about when the churches commemorated both the George Bush Jr & Sr.   They commemorated men who went and practiced at the Bohemian Grove and had Molech worship and were members of Masonic organizations.
Of course we should pray for those who are not part of the church. We should pray for them especially.
Quote
I don't get how the Eastern Orthodox church does not teach to warn the people of such things.
Of what? Your exegesis? They don't probably because we aren't protestants, and we don't believe personal exegesis to be of import.

I notice you didn't respond to what I said about technological determinism. Are you conceeding that point?
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« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2011, 08:28:37 PM »

I read Romans 13 and I don't see it that way.  To me they are not "civil authorities", they are "public SERVANTS".   Servants are answerable to their masters, which are the people.

I'm not sure what to say to get to you on this. Romans 13 says straight out "Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities." I don't know how you get anything besides that. Trying to use the term "public servant" to justify it doesn't make you right. The term "public servant" is to denote that the government works for us in that we elect them, etc. And, yes, they are answerable to us (that's what elections are for). But, if you don't agree with what law is being passed doesn't mean you can disregard it and do whatever you want. I don't agree with seatbelt laws. I don't agree with lawmakers that do, but I still have to follow the law. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean I get to go, "Well, that was made by a SERVANT, so I don't have to listen." The cop and judge are going to laugh at me while I'm writing the check to pay the fine.

We elect our governing authorities here. That's fine, but we still have to submit ourselves to them. To not do so would be disobedient and against God (laws that go against God are a whole different story). Just because we elect them and they, in a way, serve us, does not get rid of the requirement to submit ourselves to them.
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« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2011, 08:30:01 PM »

How about when the churches commemorated both the George Bush Jr & Sr.   They commemorated men who went and practiced at the Bohemian Grove and had Molech worship and were members of Masonic organizations.

What is a point in praying for sinless people?
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« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2011, 08:30:55 PM »

It's easier to submit to them if you agree with them, isn't it?
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« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2011, 08:36:00 PM »

I read Romans 13 and I don't see it that way.  To me they are not "civil authorities", they are "public SERVANTS".

Hurray!  More speculation and accusations from yeshuaisiam!  I have no problem with discussing the subject of the thread, but at least do so in a responsible way.  On this subject, I'm inclined to listen to the opinions of theologians, elders and the like, but not your wild ramblings and interpretations.

It's pretty transparent that you are highly critical of "world Orthodoxy."  Not only that, you are doubtful about the legitimacy of the Church itself, "world" or not.  In my eyes, this looks to be just another platform for you to launch attacks at Orthodoxy.  
« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 08:40:35 PM by Cognomen » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2011, 08:39:32 PM »

How about when the churches commemorated both the George Bush Jr & Sr.   They commemorated men who went and practiced at the Bohemian Grove and had Molech worship and were members of Masonic organizations.

What is a point in praying for sinless people?

This is ultimately the point he fails to grasp.

At the same time, most of his assertions are unfounded or at least unproved.  Oh I'm sure there is some website "proving" this dross about the Bohemian Grove, Molech (whatever these things are), and Masonic affiliation, so he accepts it as fact and expects us to do the same. 
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« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2011, 08:41:50 PM »

I'm seeing some anachronism concerning "civil authorities" mixed in with some Protestant Dispensationalism from the OP.

Just don't think about the end times. But, if you must...read the Fathers on the issue. John Darby wasn't very Christian, much less Orthodox. Don't try to interpret Scripture as if it were written by a 19th century American in the United Brethen Church.

Actually, don't try to interpret Scripture at all. Seek the truth from Holy Tradition. Sit at the feet of Mother Church, and listen.

Quote
How about when the churches commemorated both the George Bush Jr & Sr.   They commemorated men who went and practiced at the Bohemian Grove and had Molech worship and were members of Masonic organizations.

We're not commemorating these men as bishops, we're praying for mercy on their behalf, since they are the leaders of our nation. When St. Paul wrote the Church of Rome about commemorating the civil authorities, the Roman Emperor was Nero! You have issues with the Bushes...what would you think about commemorating a pagan tyrant who actively slaughtered people of your religion?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 08:48:00 PM by Benjamin the Red » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2011, 08:43:06 PM »

How about when the churches commemorated both the George Bush Jr & Sr.   They commemorated men who went and practiced at the Bohemian Grove and had Molech worship and were members of Masonic organizations.

What is a point in praying for sinless people?

This is ultimately the point he fails to grasp.

At the same time, most of his assertions are unfounded or at least unproved.  Oh I'm sure there is some website "proving" this dross about the Bohemian Grove, Molech (whatever these things are), and Masonic affiliation, so he accepts it as fact and expects us to do the same. 

Well there are photos
http://www.9-11-2001.com/bohemian-grove-photos/bohemian-grove-photos.html
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« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2011, 08:44:13 PM »

I read Romans 13 and I don't see it that way.  To me they are not "civil authorities", they are "public SERVANTS".

Hurray!  More speculation and accusations from yeshuaisiam!  I have no problem with discussing the subject of the thread, but at least do so in a responsible way.  On this subject, I'm inclined to listen to the opinions of theologians, elders and the like, but not your wild ramblings and interpretations.

It's pretty transparent that you are highly critical of "world Orthodoxy."  Not only that, you are doubtful about the legitimacy of the Church itself, "world" or not.  In my eyes, this looks to be just another platform for you to launch attacks at Orthodoxy.  

Okay so you are saying in America, police, politicians, and the president are not called "public servants".  ?
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« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2011, 08:44:46 PM »

Is world Orthodoxy a dangerous religion for the end days?  Yes.  And as you suspect, it probably will join forces with the Antichrist against the True Orthodox, whom even the Gates of Hell will not prevail.  Just because you dress like Liberace, wear funny hats, and maybe even commune with the EP, does not make you Orthodox.  It may make you "canonical", whatever that perversion of the term is supposed to mean, but it does not make you Orthodox.  There were times in the history of the Church that heretics and apostates had so overrun the visible organization calling itself the Church that many thought that the Church had ceased to exist.  Such were the times of Athanasius and Maximos.  So will it be again before Christ comes.  But, there always will be a remnant.
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« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2011, 08:46:43 PM »

How about when the churches commemorated both the George Bush Jr & Sr.   They commemorated men who went and practiced at the Bohemian Grove and had Molech worship and were members of Masonic organizations.

What is a point in praying for sinless people?

Heh, we pray to a sinless person...

I guess if you are saying "LORD HAVE MERCY!!!" that would be one way of doing it.

But to commemorate holds a place of honor.
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« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2011, 08:50:14 PM »

It's easier to submit to them if you agree with them, isn't it?

Yes and no.

I agree with Christ, and I submit to him.

In America we are the authority (the people).  We won that with bloodshed when we told King George to take a hike.  We the People are the boss, the authority, and are in charge. (at least we are supposed to be)

Though in Orthodoxy I fear respects the government as an authority, establishes 501c3 incorporation articles with them, and could very well be used by the government in the end times.  No doubt this happened in Russia (at one time).
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« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2011, 08:51:53 PM »

How about when the churches commemorated both the George Bush Jr & Sr.   They commemorated men who went and practiced at the Bohemian Grove and had Molech worship and were members of Masonic organizations.

What is a point in praying for sinless people?

Heh, we pray to a sinless person...

I guess if you are saying "LORD HAVE MERCY!!!" that would be one way of doing it.

But to commemorate holds a place of honor.

"For the president of the United States and all civil authorities and our armed forces everywhere, let us pray to the Lord."
"Lord, have mercy"

Where's the commemoration? I see a prayer.
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« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2011, 08:52:55 PM »

It's easier to submit to them if you agree with them, isn't it?

Yes and no.

I agree with Christ, and I submit to him.

In America we are the authority (the people).  We won that with bloodshed when we told King George to take a hike.  We the People are the boss, the authority, and are in charge. (at least we are supposed to be)

Though in Orthodoxy I fear respects the government as an authority, establishes 501c3 incorporation articles with them, and could very well be used by the government in the end times.  No doubt this happened in Russia (at one time).


Go get pulled over for breaking a law and tell the cop that. Let us know how it works out. As I said before, we do elect them, however, once we do, we must submit ourselves to them and the laws they enact.
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« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2011, 08:53:27 PM »

Well seriously they are all called "public servants" here in America.
Being a democratic republic, we are ultimately ruled by majority vote (even the electoral college traces back to the will of a voting majority). You are one man who disagrees with millions. Therefore, is not submitting to government simply submitting to this country's ruling majority?
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« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2011, 08:58:08 PM »

What is this world Orthodoxy business I keep hearing about?  Huh If anything, I think Nihilism and Islam are far more dangerous.

In Christ,
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« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2011, 09:05:31 PM »

Okay so you are saying in America, police, politicians, and the president are not called "public servants".  ?

I don't disagree with that point at all.  By the nature of republican democracy though, "public servants" are given a great deal of authority, and we should pray for them and that they use this power wisely.

I also believe that you frequently cite your own personal understanding and reading of things in order to make broader assertions.  I think you are doing this in this thread, and your personal take is not sufficient to answer the somewhat rhetorical question you asked.
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« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2011, 09:19:17 PM »

What is this world Orthodoxy business I keep hearing about?  Huh If anything, I think Nihilism and Islam are far more dangerous.

In Christ,
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« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2011, 09:43:59 PM »

Okay so you are saying in America, police, politicians, and the president are not called "public servants".  ?

I don't disagree with that point at all.  By the nature of republican democracy though, "public servants" are given a great deal of authority, and we should pray for them and that they use this power wisely.

Exactly.

Like him or hate him, the President was delegated vast and sweeping powers by the Electoral College when they cast their votes for him around the beginning of December 2008. Those powers are his until the Electoral College meets again in 2012, to either renew him or replace him. That is how our system works. And like him or hate him, the man needs our prayers.
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« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2011, 10:09:02 PM »

What is this world Orthodoxy business I keep hearing about?  Huh If anything, I think Nihilism and Islam are far more dangerous.

In Christ,
Andrew

The greatest danger is always from within, not without.  The Nihilists and the Moslems are no threat to us.  What can they do?  Kill us?  So what.  However, those that call themselves Orthodox but are not, they are the danger.  It is just like wartime.  When the enemy wears a uniform of his nation and he is captured, he is kept as a POW and treated in accordance with rules of law (hopefully).  However, when an enemy is caught wearing your uniform, he is treated as a spy and shot.  Why?  Because the traitor, spy, and enemy within is always more dangerous.
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« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2011, 10:20:15 PM »

What is this world Orthodoxy business I keep hearing about?  Huh If anything, I think Nihilism and Islam are far more dangerous.

In Christ,
Andrew

The greatest danger is always from within, not without.  The Nihilists and the Moslems are no threat to us.  What can they do?  Kill us?  So what.  However, those that call themselves Orthodox but are not, they are the danger.  It is just like wartime.  When the enemy wears a uniform of his nation and he is captured, he is kept as a POW and treated in accordance with rules of law (hopefully).  However, when an enemy is caught wearing your uniform, he is treated as a spy and shot.  Why?  Because the traitor, spy, and enemy within is always more dangerous.
I'd agree, but I was thinking spiritually dangerous and soul-destroying. Though people who are baptized Orthodox are not exempt from this either, I'm afraid.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2011, 10:36:32 PM »

Okay so you are saying in America, police, politicians, and the president are not called "public servants".  ?

I don't disagree with that point at all.  By the nature of republican democracy though, "public servants" are given a great deal of authority, and we should pray for them and that they use this power wisely.

Exactly.

Like him or hate him, the President was delegated vast and sweeping powers by the Electoral College when they cast their votes for him around the beginning of December 2008. Those powers are his until the Electoral College meets again in 2012, to either renew him or replace him. That is how our system works. And like him or hate him, the man needs our prayers.

Well, actually they are his until at least January of 2013, when the next President is sworn in, or Obama is sworn in again.
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« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2011, 11:03:31 PM »

The greatest danger is always from within, not without.  The Nihilists and the Moslems are no threat to us.  What can they do?  Kill us?  So what.

Can't Nihilism and Islam help prevent people outside the Church from reaching the true faith and salvation though?   

Quote
However, those that call themselves Orthodox but are not, they are the danger.  It is just like wartime.  When the enemy wears a uniform of his nation and he is captured, he is kept as a POW and treated in accordance with rules of law (hopefully).  However, when an enemy is caught wearing your uniform, he is treated as a spy and shot.  Why?  Because the traitor, spy, and enemy within is always more dangerous.

I do agree that this is a problem, but I'm cautious to claim we know who is and isn't a spy, traitor, enemy, etc. within the Church.  Some cases may be clear, but otherwise, who makes that determination?  I would say that Orthodoxy, "world" or not, has the potential to become dangerous, but that it is a tremendously good force and representative of Christ's Church. 
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« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2011, 11:13:10 PM »

Okay so you are saying in America, police, politicians, and the president are not called "public servants".  ?

I don't disagree with that point at all.  By the nature of republican democracy though, "public servants" are given a great deal of authority, and we should pray for them and that they use this power wisely.

Exactly.

Like him or hate him, the President was delegated vast and sweeping powers by the Electoral College when they cast their votes for him around the beginning of December 2008. Those powers are his until the Electoral College meets again in 2012, to either renew him or replace him. That is how our system works. And like him or hate him, the man needs our prayers.

Well, actually they are his until at least January of 2013, when the next President is sworn in, or Obama is sworn in again.

Ah yes, I forgot about the wonderful lame duck period. If there is anything I'd change about our electoral system it's that agonizing two-month gap.
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« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2011, 11:17:36 PM »

Many fear where there is nothing to fear, but do not fear what ought to be feared.

The choices others make are, fundamentally, nothing for me to fear. I only fear making the wrong choice for myself. If more people concentrated on their own choices rather than worrying about what might happen in the world, there may be less evil in the world presently, and perhaps at the world's end.

I don't think that any individual or group can prevent a person's salvation, if that person desires to be saved. Who can thwart God? Only the person who does not open the door when He knocks, not the masses mumbling outside, scorning the Knocker.
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« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2011, 11:47:51 PM »

I don't think that any individual or group can prevent a person's salvation, if that person desires to be saved. Who can thwart God? Only the person who does not open the door when He knocks, not the masses mumbling outside, scorning the Knocker.
Many people have not been properly exposed to Orthodox Christianity.  Referring to the examples given, for a Muslim or someone encompassed by Nihilism, desiring to be saved may not be the issue.  I don't think it's about an individual or group, but philosophies that steer people away from the Church.

Do we really feel no responsibility to fight against false philosophies and religions, and bring people to the Church?  I don't mean in a superficial, doorbell ringing kind of way.  Are we to tell people who are interested, "No, I wouldn't inquire further into Orthodoxy, it's a dangerous religion for the end of days."
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« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2011, 12:24:47 AM »

The greatest danger is always from within, not without.  The Nihilists and the Moslems are no threat to us.  What can they do?  Kill us?  So what.

Can't Nihilism and Islam help prevent people outside the Church from reaching the true faith and salvation though?   

Quote
However, those that call themselves Orthodox but are not, they are the danger.  It is just like wartime.  When the enemy wears a uniform of his nation and he is captured, he is kept as a POW and treated in accordance with rules of law (hopefully).  However, when an enemy is caught wearing your uniform, he is treated as a spy and shot.  Why?  Because the traitor, spy, and enemy within is always more dangerous.

I do agree that this is a problem, but I'm cautious to claim we know who is and isn't a spy, traitor, enemy, etc. within the Church.  Some cases may be clear, but otherwise, who makes that determination?  I would say that Orthodoxy, "world" or not, has the potential to become dangerous, but that it is a tremendously good force and representative of Christ's Church. 

Your concerns are accurate in my view, and further spell out the danger of internal threat.  External enemies make themselves known.  Those that espouse the doctrines of the enemy from within often are not known.  Who makes the determination?  Ultimately, we all do to some extent.  I believe, and have always believed, that every Orthodox Christian is bound by duty to study the Word of God, read diligently the Lives of the Saints, and attend the Services of the Church frequently.  They should also read the writings of the Fathers.   I have no use for the cultists that simply “show up” and have to run to a “spiritual father” for everything.  These are the ones that will be deceived first.

To a large extent, we can see the subtle beginnings of the end as we see our services stripped of much of the doctrinal content so important to the teaching of the people.  How many parishes still hear the entire Canon for Matins sung on Sunday?  How many just sing the Irmoi thereby robbing the Faithful of the doctrinal teaching of the hymns of the Church?  Are the Troparia still sung at the Beatitudes?  Not in any of the “world” Orthodox Churches that I have attended.  How many modern Churches still have Vespers?  All of these services contain the doctrine of the Church, when they are performed in their entirety.  As it is, most modern Orthodox Churches can fire through a Matins in less than an hour, and a Vespers in less time than that.  Combine that with the modern textual criticism taught in our Seminaries, and you have a two front attack.  First, you deny the Faithful the ability to hear the truth so they cannot recognize a lie, and then you start to introduce falsehood.  Where are we on this timeline? 

What makes “world” Orthodoxy dangerous is that it will slowly become a great deception.  A Christian will know not to trust Islam, or an Atheist, or a Jew.  But what happens when he tries to join himself to what he thinks is the Church, but is not?  We see this as early as the book of Revelations when Christ warns people of one of the seven Churches to beware of those that say they are Jews but are not.  A true Jew would have known the Savior, not reject him.  In the end, will “world” Orthodoxy be any different?

When will this happen?  Before the end must come the Great Apostasy.  But when exactly will that be?  Who knows?  We have been close many times, but have always been saved.  Perhaps we will be saved again this time.  Perhaps (and I truly wish this) we will not come close this time.  And who are the “world” Orthodox and the “True” Orthodox?  Again, who really knows?  Can any of us see into the heart of those around us and know what they really believe?  I believe that we will know them by their fruits.  When it becomes more and more difficult to tell the Orthodox from anyone else, we will be approaching that time that will usher in the end.  And it will not be the Moslems who will be “casting us out of the Synagogue”, but those who “call themselves Jews but are not”.  Our greatest enemies will be those that consider those who still try to believe and practice the Faith handed down to us as Schismatic.  They will call us “non-Canonical” as they violate every Canon in the book.  They will call us unloving as we refuse to drink the Kool-Aid of Ecumenism that they gulp down so readily.  And we will know them by their fruits.  Where are their Martyrs?  Where are their Saints?  Where are their Holy Men and Elders?  Where are their miracles?  If the Fathers were teleported into that time, would they recognize what they saw as Orthodox?

I don’t have these answers.  Many will suppose they do, but I have found the more that one thinks they know, the less they really know.   
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« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2011, 01:32:28 AM »

No, I can't submit to a servant
Must be difficult worshiping Jesus then.  laugh

How about when the churches commemorated both the George Bush Jr & Sr.   They commemorated men who went and practiced at the Bohemian Grove and had Molech worship and were members of Masonic organizations.
Bro, that Alex Jones stuff is brain poison. One of my friends practically went off the deep end because of that nonsense. =/

I've seen the Bohemian Grove video. It's just a typical nutty parlor/club/mason anachronism held over from the 19th Century. The stuff's a dime a dozen in America and western europe.
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« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2011, 05:14:30 AM »

I must say this is er, interesting from a Catholic perspective, especially my particular one. Having spent years having it dinned into my head in arguments with certain groups from the north of Ireland that the Catholic Church is the anti-Christ, the beast, the scarlet woman etc. I find it fascinating to hear it now applied to Orthodoxy. I notice the arguments are curiously similar yet also at the same time unique.

I think the OP is trying to fit Orthodoxy into American politics and that landscape whereas Orthodoxy is rather more all encompassing in it's historical reach and outlook.
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« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2011, 05:22:37 AM »

I think the OP is trying to fit Orthodoxy into American politics and that landscape whereas Orthodoxy is rather more all encompassing in it's historical reach and outlook.
You mean, the Ecumene doesn't start at Washington and end at Maine? Shocked
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« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2011, 05:38:03 AM »

How many parishes still hear the entire Canon for Matins sung on Sunday?

We don't have matins but we sing on a vigil.[/quote]

Quote
Are the Troparia still sung at the Beatitudes? Not in any of the “world” Orthodox Churches that I have attended.

They are everywhere in Poland.

Quote
How many modern Churches still have Vespers?

We don't have. We have a vigil instead.

Quote
Perhaps (and I truly wish this) we will not come close this time.  And who are the “world” Orthodox and the “True” Orthodox?  Again, who really knows?  Can any of us see into the heart of those around us and know what they really believe?

Don't you know what the visible boundaries of the Church are?

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Where are their Martyrs?

AFAIK the most modern martyr is St. Eugene Rodionov.
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« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2011, 07:47:48 AM »

I think the OP is trying to fit Orthodoxy into American politics and that landscape whereas Orthodoxy is rather more all encompassing in it's historical reach and outlook.
You mean, the Ecumene doesn't start at Washington and end at Maine? Shocked

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Yorker#.22View_of_the_World.22_cover
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Saul Steinberg created 85 covers and 642 internal drawings and illustrations for the magazine. His most famous work is probably its March 29, 1976 cover,[21] an illustration titled "View of the World from 9th Avenue", sometimes referred to as "A Parochial New Yorker's View of the World" or "A New Yorker's View of the World", which depicts a map of the world as seen by self-absorbed New Yorkers.
The illustration is split in two, with the bottom half of the image showing Manhattan's 9th Avenue, 10th Avenue, and the Hudson River (appropriately labeled), and the top half depicting the rest of the world. The rest of the United States is the size of the three New York City blocks and is drawn as a square, with a thin brown strip along the Hudson representing "Jersey", the names of five cities (Los Angeles; Washington, D.C.; Las Vegas; Kansas City; and Chicago) and three states (Texas, Utah, and Nebraska) scattered among a few rocks for the U.S. beyond New Jersey. The Pacific Ocean, perhaps half again as wide as the Hudson, separates the U.S. from three flattened land masses labeled China, Japan and Russia.
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« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2011, 08:15:46 AM »

Quote
No, I can't submit to a servant, even if it's a public servant.

You are not afraid that the church is compliant to the ruling governments, "juiced into the system under 501c3", and commemorates those that will eventually serve the anti-Christ?

How about when the churches commemorated both the George Bush Jr & Sr.   They commemorated men who went and practiced at the Bohemian Grove and had Molech worship and were members of Masonic organizations.

I don't get how the Eastern Orthodox church does not teach to warn the people of such things.

Because the concerns of the  Orthodox Churches and your concerns (or certain websites) are not mirrors of each other. Although it is worth pointing out the Orthodox Churches do condemn Freemasonry, however you have made a series of rather large charges against Bush senior and junior which are not particularly well supported.

America is not the world and a very small minority of the Eastern Orthodox world wide reside there.
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« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2011, 09:52:59 AM »

Quote

I went to the link and the first thing that struck me is that Richard Nixon wasnt Vice President in 1967, Hubert Humphrey was Under LBJ....just thought I should share.

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« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2011, 10:53:46 AM »



Quote
Perhaps (and I truly wish this) we will not come close this time.  And who are the “world” Orthodox and the “True” Orthodox?  Again, who really knows?  Can any of us see into the heart of those around us and know what they really believe?

Don't you know what the visible boundaries of the Church are?



I know what each side claims they are.  I do not necessarily believe either one.
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