Author Topic: Did Pope Shenouda declare Catholic sacraments invalid?  (Read 3361 times)

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Offline griego catolico

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Did Pope Shenouda declare Catholic sacraments invalid?
« on: June 15, 2004, 01:06:26 PM »
A few years ago, I read a statement from His Beatitude Stephanos II Ghattas, Coptic Catholic Patriarch, who stated that Pope Shenouda of the Coptic Orthodox Church had declared Catholic sacraments to be invalid.

I would really appreciate it if anyone can confirm this, as well as  provide any official statements from Pope Shenouda regarding this matter.

Offline Ben

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Re:Did Pope Shenouda declare Catholic sacraments invalid?
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2004, 02:43:05 PM »
Wow, this is very interesting, I would very interested to see if anyone here can confrim this.
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Ben

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Re:Did Pope Shenouda declare Catholic sacraments invalid?
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2004, 03:36:11 AM »
Has anyone found out this to be true or not?
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Arystarcus

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Re:Did Pope Shenouda declare Catholic sacraments invalid?
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2004, 07:17:45 PM »
Hmmm... I've never heard this before, matter of fact what I have heard is that in cases of emergency that Coptic Orthodox Christians can receive the sacraments from a Catholic priest and vice versa. So, I don't see why H.H. Pope Shenouda would declare them invalid and then permit his flock to receive them - does't make a whole lot of sense to me.

But, if anyone does have any more info on this I would also be interested.

In Christ,
Aaron
« Last Edit: June 22, 2004, 07:18:44 PM by Arystarcus »

Offline Ben

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Re:Did Pope Shenouda declare Catholic sacraments invalid?
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2004, 07:57:31 PM »
I have heard is that in cases of emergency that Coptic Orthodox Christians can receive the sacraments from a Catholic priest and vice versa

Yes that is correct, that is why if H.H. Pope Shenouda did declare Sacraments of the Catholic Church to be invalid, I'd be very surprised.
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re:Did Pope Shenouda declare Catholic sacraments invalid?
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2004, 08:05:29 PM »
Although I could be mistaken, I've never heard that Copts are allowed to receive the sacraments from RC's in emergency situations.  Armenians, Syrians, Indians, yes, but I don't recall hearing that Alexandria allowed this for their people.
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Offline Ben

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Re:Did Pope Shenouda declare Catholic sacraments invalid?
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2004, 08:08:49 PM »
hmm..I have heard they are...I will do a little research, but maybe you're right Mor.
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Anastasios

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Re:Did Pope Shenouda declare Catholic sacraments invalid?
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2004, 09:56:09 PM »
As I posted on Byzcath and a Copt responded, the Coptic patriarch declared that Catholics becoming Orthodox in his Church needed to be baptised because Roman Catholics practice baptism by pouring and/or sprinkling (alhtough I think the later is not an option anymore).  He didn't declare them invalid, just that the form was wrong and it was better to just do it again to make sure it was done correctly.

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Offline Ben

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Re:Did Pope Shenouda declare Catholic sacraments invalid?
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2004, 10:33:25 PM »
Ah ok, thanks Anastasios!
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline SamB

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Re:Did Pope Shenouda declare Catholic sacraments invalid?
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2004, 10:55:01 PM »
The Coptic Catholics have retained their traditional form of baptism, yes?

No?

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Offline Anastasios

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Re:Did Pope Shenouda declare Catholic sacraments invalid?
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2004, 11:30:40 PM »
With the Coptic Catholics in particular, the argument has been made that their aggresive proselytism led to Pope Shenouda extending this to them as well. I am not sure if this is accurate though.

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Offline Ben

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Re:Did Pope Shenouda declare Catholic sacraments invalid?
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2004, 01:04:39 AM »


I didn't know that the Coptic Catholics were involved in "aggresive proselytism", I am not saying that it isn't true, but I'd love to read some articles on the topic, know of any? I am sure I'm this is ture, I'd just like to learn more. :)
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Brendan03

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Re:Did Pope Shenouda declare Catholic sacraments invalid?
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2004, 05:13:16 PM »
Yes the form is a critical issue.  When I was received into the OCA I was received by anointing with chrism.  My son, who had been initiated as a Melkite Catholic (and was too young for confession) was simply received at the chalice.  The explanation given was that the *form* of his sacraments of initiation were identical to that of the OCA and so no anointing was needed.  I was not baptized, as the Copts may have done, it was considered that the anointing corrected any impropriety of form that may have been the case with my cradle RC baptism.
B

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Re:Did Pope Shenouda declare Catholic sacraments invalid?
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2004, 05:37:05 PM »
Ben,

The Copts are not generally a topic of hot discussion in articles.  This is a claim made by word of mouth and so take it as that. You could always write the Coptic Papal Chancery and ask them.

anastasios
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Offline paul2004

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Re:Did Pope Shenouda declare Catholic sacraments invalid?
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2004, 10:59:19 AM »
Although I could be mistaken, I've never heard that Copts are allowed to receive the sacraments from RC's in emergency situations.  Armenians, Syrians, Indians, yes, but I don't recall hearing that Alexandria allowed this for their people.  


The dialogue between the Indian Orthodox and Roman Catholic church in India is ongoing. So far,  there is no decision on communion. The existing agreements are valid only between Jacobite chuch in India and the RC church, this is because of the Syrian Orthodox changes.  My understanding is that Coptic, Indian (Malankara) and Ethiopian churches do not have communion agreements with the RC church.

Official dialogue between Oriental Orthodox and RC church started only this year. First meeting was in Cairo, January 2004.

We need to hope and pray for unity, but unity should happen in an Ecumenical way, without affecting existing communion. Also, the RC church should consider the changes introduced. For example, in the Oriental Orthodox bishops are monastics and cannot eat meat, but RC church does not have such restrictions.

-Paul

Offline Ben

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Re:Did Pope Shenouda declare Catholic sacraments invalid?
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2004, 08:41:20 PM »
Why does it matter if RC monastics eat meat or not? lol I hardly think that is a major difference between the RC and OO that should be considered before union occurs, if it ever does.
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Thomas Daniel (Reji)

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Re:Did Pope Shenouda declare Catholic sacraments invalid?
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2004, 06:34:57 AM »
The existing agreements are valid only between Jacobite chuch in India and the RC church, this is because of the Syrian Orthodox changes.
This is not because of the Syrian Orthodox changes. Please try to read the following links and understand it.

After centuries of isolation, the spirit of ecumenism that emerged in the latter half of the twentieth century enabled the Syriac Orthodox Church to engage in constructive dialogue with sister churches which it continues to do. About seven centuries before modern ecumenical dialogue began, no less a person than Bar `Ebroyo noted:

When I had given much thought and pondered on the matter, I became convinced that these quarrels among the different Christian Churches are not a matter of factual substance, but of words and terminology; for they all confess Christ our Lord to be perfect God and perfect human, without any commingling, mixing, or confusion of the natures... Thus I saw all the Christian communities, with their different christological positions, as possessing a single common ground that is without any difference between them. (Book of the Dove, Chapter IV)

Much has been accomplished in the past few decades especially in relationships with the Roman Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox Churches. In addition to theological dialogue, the Church also actively hosts and participates in dialogue in topics such as inter-church marriages, setting a common date for Easter, etc.

Relationships with the Eastern (Chalcedonian) Orthodox Churches
http://sor.cua.edu/Ecumenism/19911112SOCRumOrthStmt.html

Relationships with the Roman Catholic Church

It is not rare, in fact, for our faithful to find access to a priest of their own Church materially or morally impossible. Anxious to meet their needs and with their spiritual benefit in mind, we authorize them in such cases to ask for the Sacraments of Penance, Eucharist and Anointing of the Sick from lawful priests of either of our two sister Churches, when they need them. It would be a logical corollary of collaboration in pastoral care to cooperate in priestly formation and theological education.
http://sor.cua.edu/Ecumenism/RC.html

Agreement on Interchurch Marriages
between the Catholic Church and the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church
January 25, 1994
http://sor.cua.edu/Ecumenism/19940125SOCRCMarriageAgmt.html
Oh.. Morth Mariam Yoldath Aloho (Mother Of God)Pray For Us