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Author Topic: The discipline of fasting/abstinence: traditional norms outdated?  (Read 5022 times) Average Rating: 0
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lubeltri
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« Reply #45 on: June 05, 2011, 09:07:54 PM »

Normal fasting does not put people's health at risk, Robb. That is silly. People with much poorer nutrition have fasted more strictly than many do today. The monks on Mt Athos don't seem to be dropping dead over it.

The protein thing is overblown. We don't need as much protein as people seem to think we do, unless we're pro athletes or something. And there is protein in beans, which are eaten abundantly during fasts.

With obesity an epidemic these days I don't think fasting normally is going to kill anyone. Silly talk.

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time buying into the idea of abstaining from most of the major food groups for around half the year is a healthy way to live. I'm especially Leary of having children do such things due to the unhealthy way that it could stunt growth.  

Also, I'm not sure about RC's still required to do some type of "ascetic" fasting on Fridays. I've heard such drivel pedaled around (Mostly by right wing RC's over the year's). However as far as I know the U.S. bishops dispensed all Catholics from abstaining form meat on Fridays and only recommended required that they replace it with some type of penance (Which can be somethings simple as saying a prayer).

When I was OC, the thing that I struggled with the most was fasting (Which I never really even tried to practice).  I wasn't raised on self denial at all. My parents pretty much said  "Hey, your hungry then eat,or tired then sleep". Most OC priest I confessed to didn't give me a hard time about it. They would just say "Do the best you can" (Which I took for code to mean "don't worry about it"). The only priest to give me trouble about it was a Serb one who I confessed to not fasting on Great Friday. He screeched at me "you didn't fast on the holiest day of the year" to which I replied "no". He then refused to commune me until the following week because of it.  It was then that I really first realized that Orthodoxy was kind of a crazy strict religion and I seriously started debating with myself about returning to the RCC.

That's one of the things that I like best about Catholicism.  It's a pretty easy religion.  The Church practically goes out of it's way to accommodate her faithful by not requiring too much of them.  That's the way I like things.  Nice and easy.  

Boy, you are not doing our side any favors.

Catholicism is not "easy" (defined as not requiring much of the faithful), nor should it be.



I'm not out to win favors for any side.  I have never heard that a person was required to perform some type of penance if they did not eat meat on Fridays.  I've never heard a real priest (Outside of EWTN) Preach on it, which makes me kind of suspect about it's legitimacy.  I know that some right wing RC's are always trying to find new rules or regulations to try and force on Catholics so that they can slowly but surely force their pseudo Tridentine form of religion down our throats again.  I will ask my parish priest if your statement is true or not, but I highly doubt it.

Also, RC ism is pretty easy, like it or not when compared to other faiths.  We really have dietary laws such as the EO's, Orthodox Jews, or Muslims do.  We do not have that many rules which we must scrupulously follow (Such as making a ha-jib).  We are a far, far more populous everyman type of religion then some would have us think.

Not as easy as you think. Birth control? Divorce? Catholic moral teaching is as hard as it gets.

As for "right-wing Catholics", this is not a political issue. Not sure why you would think so.
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lubeltri
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« Reply #46 on: June 05, 2011, 09:08:41 PM »

Penitential Days

Ash Wednesday—This day marks the beginning of the Lenten season. The imposition of ashes is an ancient penitential practice symbolizing our dependence upon God's mercy and forgiveness. Ash Wednesday is a day of fast and abstinence in the Church.

Good Friday—Christ suffered and died for our salvation on Friday. On the Friday that we call "Good," the Church gathers to commemorate Jesus' Passion and death. Good Friday is a day of fast and abstinence. The Good Friday fast is the Paschal fast—a fast of anticipation and longing for the Passover of the Lord, which should continue, when possible, through Holy Saturday.

Fridays During Lent—In the United States, the tradition of abstaining from meat on each Friday during Lent is maintained.

Fridays Throughout the Year—In memory of Christ's suffering and death, the Church prescribes making each Friday throughout the year a penitential day. All of us are urged to prepare appropriately for that weekly Easter that comes with each Sunday.


http://www.usccb.org/doctrine/penitential.shtml
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« Reply #47 on: June 05, 2011, 09:10:02 PM »

Really?  It's still technically a mortal sin to not do some sort of asectic fast on Fridays.  Unconfessed mortal sin leaves one soul in danger of damnation.
Source?

I didn't think it was a mortal sin. Of course, there are three requirements for a sin to be mortal so it is not fair to label anything a "mortal sin" since it varies from person to person. The most it could be is grave matter. Grave matter can still be a venial sin if full knowledge and full consent of the will are not present.
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Robb
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« Reply #48 on: June 05, 2011, 09:16:48 PM »

Penitential Days

Ash Wednesday—This day marks the beginning of the Lenten season. The imposition of ashes is an ancient penitential practice symbolizing our dependence upon God's mercy and forgiveness. Ash Wednesday is a day of fast and abstinence in the Church.

Good Friday—Christ suffered and died for our salvation on Friday. On the Friday that we call "Good," the Church gathers to commemorate Jesus' Passion and death. Good Friday is a day of fast and abstinence. The Good Friday fast is the Paschal fast—a fast of anticipation and longing for the Passover of the Lord, which should continue, when possible, through Holy Saturday.

Fridays During Lent—In the United States, the tradition of abstaining from meat on each Friday during Lent is maintained.

Fridays Throughout the Year—In memory of Christ's suffering and death, the Church prescribes making each Friday throughout the year a penitential day. All of us are urged to prepare appropriately for that weekly Easter that comes with each Sunday.


http://www.usccb.org/doctrine/penitential.shtml

verb (used without object)
9. to exert a driving or impelling force; give an impulse to haste or action: Hunger urges.
10. to make entreaties or earnest recommendations.
11. to press arguments or allegations, as against a person, action, or cause: The senator urged against the confirmation of the appointment.

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« Reply #49 on: June 05, 2011, 09:19:33 PM »

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time buying into the idea of abstaining from most of the major food groups for around half the year is a healthy way to live.  I'm especially Leary of having children do such things due to the unhealthy way that it could stunt growth.  

Also, I'm not sure about RC's still required to do some type of "ascetic" fasting on Fridays.  I've heard such drivel pedaled around (Mostly by right wing RC's over the year's).  However as far as I know the U.S. bishops dispensed all Catholics from abstaining form meat on Fridays and only recommended that they replace it with some type of penance (Which can be somethings simple as saying a prayer).

When I was OC, the thing that I struggled with the most was fasting (Which I never really even tried to practice).  I wasn't raised on self denial at all.  My parents pretty much said  "Hey, your hungry then eat,or tired then sleep".  Most OC priest I confessed to didn't give me a hard time about it.  They would just say "Do the best you can" (Which I took for code to mean "don't worry about it").  The only priest to give me trouble about it was a Serb one who I confessed to not fasting on Great Friday.  He screeched at me "you didn't fast on the holiest day of the year" to which I replied "no".  He then refused to commune me until the following week because of it.  It was then that I really first realized that Orthodoxy was kind of a crazy strict religion and I seriously started debating with myself about returning to the RCC.

That's one of the things that I like best about Catholicism.  It's a pretty easy religion.  The Church practically goes out of it's way to accommodate her faithful by not requiring too much of them.  That's the way I like things.  Nice and easy.  

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lubeltri
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« Reply #50 on: June 05, 2011, 09:23:56 PM »

Penitential Days

Ash Wednesday—This day marks the beginning of the Lenten season. The imposition of ashes is an ancient penitential practice symbolizing our dependence upon God's mercy and forgiveness. Ash Wednesday is a day of fast and abstinence in the Church.

Good Friday—Christ suffered and died for our salvation on Friday. On the Friday that we call "Good," the Church gathers to commemorate Jesus' Passion and death. Good Friday is a day of fast and abstinence. The Good Friday fast is the Paschal fast—a fast of anticipation and longing for the Passover of the Lord, which should continue, when possible, through Holy Saturday.

Fridays During Lent—In the United States, the tradition of abstaining from meat on each Friday during Lent is maintained.

Fridays Throughout the Year—In memory of Christ's suffering and death, the Church prescribes making each Friday throughout the year a penitential day. All of us are urged to prepare appropriately for that weekly Easter that comes with each Sunday.


http://www.usccb.org/doctrine/penitential.shtml

pre·scribe 

–verb (used with object)
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to lay down, in writing or otherwise, as a rule or a course of action to be followed; appoint, ordain, or enjoin.

–verb (used without object)
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to lay down rules; direct; dictate.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 09:24:25 PM by lubeltri » Logged
Robb
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« Reply #51 on: June 05, 2011, 09:25:07 PM »

Really?  It's still technically a mortal sin to not do some sort of ascetic fast on Fridays.  Unconfessed mortal sin leaves one soul in danger of damnation.
Source?

I didn't think it was a mortal sin. Of course, there are three requirements for a sin to be mortal so it is not fair to label anything a "mortal sin" since it varies from person to person. The most it could be is grave matter. Grave matter can still be a venial sin if full knowledge and full consent of the will are not present.

It depends, deliberately stealing a quarter can involve full knowledge and consent, but isn't grave matter so it's not mortal. Just because you know you are committing a sin doesn't make it serious.
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« Reply #52 on: June 05, 2011, 09:25:34 PM »

No I didn't say that all fasting is wrong, I just think that your Churches concept of fasting is wrong for today's world (Apparently so do the vast majority of your faithful who do not practice it at all). 

Sorry, a majority of people breaking the rules isn't grounds to do away with them. We don't make rules for the sake of making rules, but it seems you think this way. The rules are intended for fostering a specific result—a result that may well not occur any other way.

And if you have struggled with scrupulosity, fine. But you are universalizing your particular circumstance. I can show you a hundred saints who were made holy in part through extreme fasting, which the Church does not ask us to do. Not eating meat and dairy twice a week is not extreme.

One modern example is St John of San Francisco, who only ate one small meal every day. And he lived in the modern world, so that demolishes your theory.

Well my Church must have thought it was grounds for that.  They did away with the strict, Orthodox style of fasting centuries ago and I highly doubt that they will ever re institute it.  As I also mentioned even the EC's have reduced their fasting requirements, and they are the same thing as you EO's except they follow the Pope.  If you wish to keep your own fast, fine, but don't judge we RC's for keeping ours as our Church proscribes.  If they wanted us to do more then they would tell us to do so.

Also, I have no idea about St John other then he was a noted ascetic and I am definitely not an ascetic nor do I have any desire to be one.  We all walk with God in our own way and do what we can based on who we are, what we are, and where we are.  That's fine with me.

I'm not judging Roman Catholics, because all the ones I know in real life (who are not all "right wing" or "trad") recognize the importance and necessity of asceticism and fasting. I'm simply saying that your opinion that fasting is impossibly difficult and outdated is wrong. (I also recognize that your view is not shared by many of your fellow Roman Catholics.)

You will have to do a lot to convince anyone that Christianity is not an ascetic religion. The Bible and the Fathers are full of examples of self-denial. If you don't proclaim the faith of the Fathers, that's your business, but I think a great number of Roman Catholics would say you're out of the mainstream.

And again, if this is a personal bit of economia for you, then fine. It's a pastoral issue. But don't then proclaim that your practices are the norm.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 09:32:22 PM by bogdan » Logged
lubeltri
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« Reply #53 on: June 05, 2011, 09:26:04 PM »

Robb, If you are not making some sort of penitential observance of every Friday, I think you're falling short. It's not that hard! You don't have to whip yourself and wear a hair-shirt. To each his own. Since you seem to struggle with serious scrupulosity, even a sincere prayer to help you with your scrupulosity would do.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 09:28:14 PM by lubeltri » Logged
Robb
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« Reply #54 on: June 05, 2011, 09:27:51 PM »

Penitential Days

Ash Wednesday—This day marks the beginning of the Lenten season. The imposition of ashes is an ancient penitential practice symbolizing our dependence upon God's mercy and forgiveness. Ash Wednesday is a day of fast and abstinence in the Church.

Good Friday—Christ suffered and died for our salvation on Friday. On the Friday that we call "Good," the Church gathers to commemorate Jesus' Passion and death. Good Friday is a day of fast and abstinence. The Good Friday fast is the Paschal fast—a fast of anticipation and longing for the Passover of the Lord, which should continue, when possible, through Holy Saturday.

Fridays During Lent—In the United States, the tradition of abstaining from meat on each Friday during Lent is maintained.

Fridays Throughout the Year—In memory of Christ's suffering and death, the Church prescribes making each Friday throughout the year a penitential day. All of us are urged to prepare appropriately for that weekly Easter that comes with each Sunday.


http://www.usccb.org/doctrine/penitential.shtml

pre·scribe 

–verb (used with object)
1.
to lay down, in writing or otherwise, as a rule or a course of action to be followed; appoint, ordain, or enjoin.

–verb (used without object)
3.
to lay down rules; direct; dictate.


Again this rule might be on the books, but it isn't enforced by our bishops.  If they would want us doing something penitential then they would telll us what to do.  The Church speaks for God and God would not leave us hangign like this.  Traditional Catholics are always trying to make it seem as if things are still as strict as the "old days", but its not (My pastor told me so).
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« Reply #55 on: June 05, 2011, 09:29:08 PM »

Robb, If you are not making some sort of penitential observance of every Friday, I think you're falling short. It's not that hard!

Well me and msot other Catholics are all in the same boat.  Your a "trad" so how can I trust anything you say as accurate.  We all know how your kind operate and what you want us all to do (Hint, clingy, lingy, incenssing and lacy).  I'd rather follow my priest counsel then resort to getting spiriutal advice on the internet from some guy who I have no knowledge of and, for all I know could be some kind of pervert or fraud. 
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 09:30:42 PM by Robb » Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
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« Reply #56 on: June 05, 2011, 09:30:37 PM »

Really?  It's still technically a mortal sin to not do some sort of ascetic fast on Fridays.  Unconfessed mortal sin leaves one soul in danger of damnation.
Source?

I didn't think it was a mortal sin. Of course, there are three requirements for a sin to be mortal so it is not fair to label anything a "mortal sin" since it varies from person to person. The most it could be is grave matter. Grave matter can still be a venial sin if full knowledge and full consent of the will are not present.

It depends, deliberately stealing a quarter can involve full knowledge and consent, but isn't grave matter so it's not mortal. Just because you know you are committing a sin doesn't make it serious.

Willful rebellion against God isn't serious? Wow.
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« Reply #57 on: June 05, 2011, 09:31:32 PM »

No I didn't say that all fasting is wrong, I just think that your Churches concept of fasting is wrong for today's world (Apparently so do the vast majority of your faithful who do not practice it at all). 

Sorry, a majority of people breaking the rules isn't grounds to do away with them. We don't make rules for the sake of making rules, but it seems you think this way. The rules are intended for fostering a specific result—a result that may well not occur any other way.

And if you have struggled with scrupulosity, fine. But you are universalizing your particular circumstance. I can show you a hundred saints who were made holy in part through extreme fasting, which the Church does not ask us to do. Not eating meat and dairy twice a week is not extreme.

One modern example is St John of San Francisco, who only ate one small meal every day. And he lived in the modern world, so that demolishes your theory.

Well my Church must have thought it was grounds for that.  They did away with the strict, Orthodox style of fasting centuries ago and I highly doubt that they will ever re institute it.  As I also mentioned even the EC's have reduced their fasting requirements, and they are the same thing as you EO's except they follow the Pope.  If you wish to keep your own fast, fine, but don't judge we RC's for keeping ours as our Church proscribes.  If they wanted us to do more then they would tell us to do so.

Also, I have no idea about St John other then he was a noted ascetic and I am definitely not an ascetic nor do I have any desire to be one.  We all walk with God in our own way and do what we can based on who we are, what we are, and where we are.  That's fine with me.
You really think the RCC is better for this? I'm not badgering, just wondering. Where do you think "Carnivale" came from in the West? Two Latin words "carnis", meat, and "valere", to bid well. Literally, saying goodbye to meat. Similarly, they said goodbye to dairy and eggs, too. Why do you think pancakes on Carnivale came to be? Wink This is a tradition that the West shared with us, that came from the Apostles themselves. How can we fiddle with that, depriving people and opportunity to really grow?

While I find the fasts challenging, without any challenge or struggle we can't grow. The Fasts were instituted to help us focus not on wanting a hamburger or "x" food, but on wanting God. Smiley It's hard, no doubt about that, especially in our culture, but with God's grace and some effort on our part, we can do it. The Church sets the bar high because she knows that most of us will never be able to attain to it, but if we are faithful in sincerely trying, then there is much reward and grace in that in so many ways.

I would love to see the RCC return to the Orthodox abstinence.

In Christ,
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« Reply #58 on: June 05, 2011, 09:32:21 PM »


I'm not out to win favors for any side.  I have never heard that a person was required to perform some type of penance if they did not eat meat on Fridays.  I've never heard a real priest (Outside of EWTN) Preach on it, which makes me kind of suspect about it's legitimacy.  I know that some right wing RC's are always trying to find new rules or regulations to try and force on Catholics so that they can slowly but surely force their pseudo Tridentine form of religion down our throats again.  I will ask my parish priest if your statement is true or not, but I highly doubt it.

You are off the chart here Robb.  The very reason that the fasting practices were changed after the Second Vatican Council was the idea that the faithful needed to take more control over their faith lives.  It was also thought that when the minimum became the rule, then all people did was the minimum.  So they did not remove penitential acts on Friday but handed the responsibility for how much and what to the faithful.  But certainly it was the intention of the original reformers that we were to do more penitential acts on Friday...not fewer or none at all.  We could keep right on eating fish on Friday or we could keep the penitential Wednesdays or Fridays but we were to add to these meatless days with more prayer, alms giving, tending the sick and the captives, etc.  

Apparently that was bust for some folks...Although I do know people who do indeed keep Wednesdays and Fridays as penitential days and who also do other acts of mercy and prayer on top of their penances on those days.

So you are really not at all well informed on this one.
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« Reply #59 on: June 05, 2011, 09:32:36 PM »

Really?  It's still technically a mortal sin to not do some sort of ascetic fast on Fridays.  Unconfessed mortal sin leaves one soul in danger of damnation.
Source?

I didn't think it was a mortal sin. Of course, there are three requirements for a sin to be mortal so it is not fair to label anything a "mortal sin" since it varies from person to person. The most it could be is grave matter. Grave matter can still be a venial sin if full knowledge and full consent of the will are not present.

It depends, deliberately stealing a quarter can involve full knowledge and consent, but isn't grave matter so it's not mortal. Just because you know you are committing a sin doesn't make it serious.

Willful rebellion against God isn't serious? Wow.

I guess all sin involves some type of rebellion, but are you seriously saying that stealing a quarter would be a mortal sin?

That's crazy.  So anything that one willfully does, no matter how small is a sin?  That aint my Church and thank God it isn't.
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« Reply #60 on: June 05, 2011, 09:34:59 PM »

Again this rule might be on the books, but it isn't enforced by our bishops.  If they would want us doing something penitential then they would telll us what to do.  

Now you're the one being legalistic here. The precise reason the US bishops dispensed with abstinence from meat as the sole required Friday observance was to avoid legalism. They still recommend avoiding meat, but they enjoin everyone to do what sort of observance is best for them. Thus they did this for types like you who were getting all legalistic and scrupulous about avoiding meat on Friday (you know, the "gravy" folks; both types: the ones who say "Okay, well I can get away with gravy 'cause it's not REALLY meat, right?" as well as the ones who cry "Oh my God! I ate gravy! I'm going to hell if I don't get to the confessional right away!").

It is emphatically AGAINST their intentions to allow you to just treat Friday like any other day.

As for me, I avoid meat on Fridays. Why? It's the traditional thing to do, it DOES hurt (I like meat), and it is simple so I don't forget to do it. But I don't struggle with scrupulosity.
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« Reply #61 on: June 05, 2011, 09:35:13 PM »


I'm not out to win favors for any side.  I have never heard that a person was required to perform some type of penance if they did not eat meat on Fridays.  I've never heard a real priest (Outside of EWTN) Preach on it, which makes me kind of suspect about it's legitimacy.  I know that some right wing RC's are always trying to find new rules or regulations to try and force on Catholics so that they can slowly but surely force their pseudo Tridentine form of religion down our throats again.  I will ask my parish priest if your statement is true or not, but I highly doubt it.

You are off the chart here Robb.  The very reason that the fasting practices were changed after the Second Vatican Council was the idea that the faithful needed to take more control over their faith lives.  It was also thought that when the minimum became the rule, then all people did was the minimum.  So they did not remove penitential acts on Friday but handed the responsibility for how much and what to the faithful.  But certainly it was the intention of the original reformers that we were to do more penitential acts on Friday...not fewer or none at all.  We could keep right on eating fish on Friday or we could keep the penitential Wednesdays or Fridays but we were to add to these meatless days with more prayer, alms giving, tending the sick and the captives, etc.  

Apparently that was bust for some folks...Although I do know people who do indeed keep Wednesdays and Fridays as penitential days and who also do other acts of mercy and prayer on top of their penances on those days.

So you are really not at all well informed on this one.
Thats the craziest thing I ever heard.  If you want people to do more stuff then tell them to.  Thats the way I operate and the way most people I know do.  Why on Earth would you let most people, who don't do or care to do much in matters of religion anyway, leave it up to themselves to decide on this?  If the church didn't mean to do things this way then they had a funny way of allowing it to happen like that.
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« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2011, 09:35:58 PM »

Really?  It's still technically a mortal sin to not do some sort of ascetic fast on Fridays.  Unconfessed mortal sin leaves one soul in danger of damnation.
Source?

I didn't think it was a mortal sin. Of course, there are three requirements for a sin to be mortal so it is not fair to label anything a "mortal sin" since it varies from person to person. The most it could be is grave matter. Grave matter can still be a venial sin if full knowledge and full consent of the will are not present.

It depends, deliberately stealing a quarter can involve full knowledge and consent, but isn't grave matter so it's not mortal. Just because you know you are committing a sin doesn't make it serious.

Willful rebellion against God isn't serious? Wow.

I guess all sin involves some type of rebellion, but are you seriously saying that stealing a quarter would be a mortal sin?

That's crazy.  So anything that one willfully does, no matter how small is a sin?  That aint my Church and thank God it isn't.

If you know it's wrong, and do it anyway, it is automatically a serious sin. My Church doesn't make such clear demarcations but you clearly are condemned by your conscience and ignore it. Not something to play around with.
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« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2011, 09:37:02 PM »

Robb, If you are not making some sort of penitential observance of every Friday, I think you're falling short. It's not that hard!

Well me and msot other Catholics are all in the same boat.  Your a "trad" so how can I trust anything you say as accurate.  We all know how your kind operate and what you want us all to do (Hint, clingy, lingy, incenssing and lacy).  I'd rather follow my priest counsel then resort to getting spiriutal advice on the internet from some guy who I have no knowledge of and, for all I know could be some kind of pervert or fraud. 

Well, there we are. No further need to discuss this with you. After all, you already "know" my "kind."  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2011, 09:38:24 PM »



If you know it's wrong, and do it anyway, it is automatically a serious sin. My Church doesn't make such clear demarcations but you clearly are condemned by your conscience and ignore it. Not something to play around with.

Agreed. Sin is not to be taken lightly.
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« Reply #65 on: June 05, 2011, 09:38:49 PM »


I'm not out to win favors for any side.  I have never heard that a person was required to perform some type of penance if they did not eat meat on Fridays.  I've never heard a real priest (Outside of EWTN) Preach on it, which makes me kind of suspect about it's legitimacy.  I know that some right wing RC's are always trying to find new rules or regulations to try and force on Catholics so that they can slowly but surely force their pseudo Tridentine form of religion down our throats again.  I will ask my parish priest if your statement is true or not, but I highly doubt it.

You are off the chart here Robb.  The very reason that the fasting practices were changed after the Second Vatican Council was the idea that the faithful needed to take more control over their faith lives.  It was also thought that when the minimum became the rule, then all people did was the minimum.  So they did not remove penitential acts on Friday but handed the responsibility for how much and what to the faithful.  But certainly it was the intention of the original reformers that we were to do more penitential acts on Friday...not fewer or none at all.  We could keep right on eating fish on Friday or we could keep the penitential Wednesdays or Fridays but we were to add to these meatless days with more prayer, alms giving, tending the sick and the captives, etc.  

Apparently that was bust for some folks...Although I do know people who do indeed keep Wednesdays and Fridays as penitential days and who also do other acts of mercy and prayer on top of their penances on those days.

So you are really not at all well informed on this one.
Thats the craziest thing I ever heard.  If you want people to do more stuff then tell them to.  Thats the way I operate and the way most people I know do.  Why on Earth would you let most people, who don't do or care to do much in matters of religion anyway, leave it up to themselves to decide on this?  If the church didn't mean to do things this way then they had a funny way of allowing it to happen like that.

Not all people think it is so crazy and some pastors actually do teach those who don't know what to do how to decide what to do.  It's called spiritual direction... Smiley
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« Reply #66 on: June 05, 2011, 09:40:02 PM »

Really?  It's still technically a mortal sin to not do some sort of ascetic fast on Fridays.  Unconfessed mortal sin leaves one soul in danger of damnation.
Source?

I didn't think it was a mortal sin. Of course, there are three requirements for a sin to be mortal so it is not fair to label anything a "mortal sin" since it varies from person to person. The most it could be is grave matter. Grave matter can still be a venial sin if full knowledge and full consent of the will are not present.

It depends, deliberately stealing a quarter can involve full knowledge and consent, but isn't grave matter so it's not mortal. Just because you know you are committing a sin doesn't make it serious.

Willful rebellion against God isn't serious? Wow.

I guess all sin involves some type of rebellion, but are you seriously saying that stealing a quarter would be a mortal sin?

That's crazy.  So anything that one willfully does, no matter how small is a sin?  That aint my Church and thank God it isn't.

If you know it's wrong, and do it anyway, it is automatically a serious sin. My Church doesn't make such clear demarcations but you clearly are condemned by your conscience and ignore it. Not something to play around with.

I think we have confused two threads:

This thread is for discussion of the Pope's suggested reforms of the Mass.

There is another thread that is dedicated to the discussion of scrupulosity:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,36832.msg581748.html#msg581748
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« Reply #67 on: June 05, 2011, 09:41:22 PM »



If you know it's wrong, and do it anyway, it is automatically a serious sin. My Church doesn't make such clear demarcations but you clearly are condemned by your conscience and ignore it. Not something to play around with.

Agreed. Sin is not to be taken lightly.

Most people outside of the Church don't realize that it was not the eating of meat that was the sin, but it was the disobedience to the legitimate authority of the Church that was the "mortal" sin when people refused to fast on Fridays.  You might argue for gluttony and not be entirely wrong but the real serious infraction was one of disobedience...and that is quite serious a matter.
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« Reply #68 on: June 05, 2011, 09:41:36 PM »

No I didn't say that all fasting is wrong, I just think that your Churches concept of fasting is wrong for today's world (Apparently so do the vast majority of your faithful who do not practice it at all). 

Sorry, a majority of people breaking the rules isn't grounds to do away with them. We don't make rules for the sake of making rules, but it seems you think this way. The rules are intended for fostering a specific result—a result that may well not occur any other way.

And if you have struggled with scrupulosity, fine. But you are universalizing your particular circumstance. I can show you a hundred saints who were made holy in part through extreme fasting, which the Church does not ask us to do. Not eating meat and dairy twice a week is not extreme.

One modern example is St John of San Francisco, who only ate one small meal every day. And he lived in the modern world, so that demolishes your theory.

Well my Church must have thought it was grounds for that.  They did away with the strict, Orthodox style of fasting centuries ago and I highly doubt that they will ever re institute it.  As I also mentioned even the EC's have reduced their fasting requirements, and they are the same thing as you EO's except they follow the Pope.  If you wish to keep your own fast, fine, but don't judge we RC's for keeping ours as our Church proscribes.  If they wanted us to do more then they would tell us to do so.

Also, I have no idea about St John other then he was a noted ascetic and I am definitely not an ascetic nor do I have any desire to be one.  We all walk with God in our own way and do what we can based on who we are, what we are, and where we are.  That's fine with me.
You really think the RCC is better for this? I'm not badgering, just wondering. Where do you think "Carnivale" came from in the West? Two Latin words "carnis", meat, and "valere", to bid well. Literally, saying goodbye to meat. Similarly, they said goodbye to dairy and eggs, too. Why do you think pancakes on Carnivale came to be? Wink This is a tradition that the West shared with us, that came from the Apostles themselves. How can we fiddle with that, depriving people and opportunity to really grow?

While I find the fasts challenging, without any challenge or struggle we can't grow. The Fasts were instituted to help us focus not on wanting a hamburger or "x" food, but on wanting God. Smiley It's hard, no doubt about that, especially in our culture, but with God's grace and some effort on our part, we can do it. The Church sets the bar high because she knows that most of us will never be able to attain to it, but if we are faithful in sincerely trying, then there is much reward and grace in that in so many ways.

I would love to see the RCC return to the Orthodox abstinence.

In Christ,
Andrew

Agreed. And the common, universal nature of the fasts are a great antidote to holier-than-thou's. Everyone is doing it, thus nobody is better than anyone else.

It is a loss.
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« Reply #69 on: June 05, 2011, 09:45:12 PM »



If you know it's wrong, and do it anyway, it is automatically a serious sin. My Church doesn't make such clear demarcations but you clearly are condemned by your conscience and ignore it. Not something to play around with.

Agreed. Sin is not to be taken lightly.

Most people outside of the Church don't realize that it was not the eating of meat that was the sin, but it was the disobedience to the legitimate authority of the Church that was the "mortal" sin when people refused to fast on Fridays.  You might argue for gluttony and not be entirely wrong but the real serious infraction was one of disobedience...and that is quite serious a matter.

Exactly. It is telling the Church to "shove it". People who do that need to ask themselves, "Why am I so willfully adamant about not marking the day, with the rest of the Church, when my Lord and Savior died on the Cross for my sins?" It's not asking much. The average American (as of 2007) consumes 222 pounds of meat per year.

It's one thing to forget or be negligent. I've been guilty of this sometimes. But it's another to deny your Church's authority altogether. It's a sign of radical individualism.
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« Reply #70 on: June 05, 2011, 09:57:02 PM »

Really?  It's still technically a mortal sin to not do some sort of ascetic fast on Fridays.  Unconfessed mortal sin leaves one soul in danger of damnation.
Source?

I didn't think it was a mortal sin. Of course, there are three requirements for a sin to be mortal so it is not fair to label anything a "mortal sin" since it varies from person to person. The most it could be is grave matter. Grave matter can still be a venial sin if full knowledge and full consent of the will are not present.

It depends, deliberately stealing a quarter can involve full knowledge and consent, but isn't grave matter so it's not mortal. Just because you know you are committing a sin doesn't make it serious.
I know. I was giving Schultz the benefit of the doubt and assuming that skipping out on a Friday penance was grave matter. I'm not saying it is. I don't know.
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« Reply #71 on: June 05, 2011, 10:02:58 PM »



If you know it's wrong, and do it anyway, it is automatically a serious sin. My Church doesn't make such clear demarcations but you clearly are condemned by your conscience and ignore it. Not something to play around with.

Agreed. Sin is not to be taken lightly.

Most people outside of the Church don't realize that it was not the eating of meat that was the sin, but it was the disobedience to the legitimate authority of the Church that was the "mortal" sin when people refused to fast on Fridays.  You might argue for gluttony and not be entirely wrong but the real serious infraction was one of disobedience...and that is quite serious a matter.

Exactly. It is telling the Church to "shove it". People who do that need to ask themselves, "Why am I so willfully adamant about not marking the day, with the rest of the Church, when my Lord and Savior died on the Cross for my sins?" It's not asking much. The average American (as of 2007) consumes 222 pounds of meat per year.

It's one thing to forget or be negligent. I've been guilty of this sometimes. But it's another to deny your Church's authority altogether. It's a sign of radical individualism.


Yes, and radical individualism lead to the Reformation and the many different Protestant denominations.

Now, back to the Mass and the reforms of the Pope.

It seems to me that the radical liturgical abuses that occurred in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s affected the Catholic Church very negatively and allowed this radical individualism to take root.

Now the Pope has the task to help individuals realize that they are part of a much larger picture, the Church.
That is going to be a very hard task.
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« Reply #72 on: June 05, 2011, 10:07:18 PM »

Yes, and radical individualism lead to the Reformation and the many different Protestant denominations.

Now, back to the Mass and the reforms of the Pope.

It seems to me that the radical liturgical abuses that occurred in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s affected the Catholic Church very negatively and allowed this radical individualism to take root.

Now the Pope has the task to help individuals realize that they are part of a much larger picture, the Church.
That is going to be a very hard task.
Certainly it is a large task, yet I pray that by the power of the Holy Spirit it shall happen.  Smiley
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« Reply #73 on: June 05, 2011, 10:36:59 PM »

I'm just following the rules of my church.  If you want to fault me for that, then I guess you can.  I don't see how me following the the fasting rules my church ask me to do is bad.  I think YOUR the ones who are sinning mortally by being overscrupulously fasting!  And by forcing your children if you have them to do so!  Child protective services should beat down your door!  As 9/11 has taught us, all religious belief must bow down to secular reasoning!  9/11/01 is the great equalizer all religions must bow down before!  After all, I'm an Italian, and you know what they say: God made us Catholics without making us Christians!

I don't know ANY CATHOLIC EVER WHO EVER follows Wed. and Fri. Fasting!  AND I Grew up in a heavily Catholic state from a family who were Catholic for centuries and even today I mainly associate with Catholics and I have never come across any of this brand of "Catholic" mentioned here.  Maybe you people have found them under a rock somewhere.  Give me their names, address, email, and telephone numbers so I can talk to them personally.  I almost guarantee your making this up.
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« Reply #74 on: June 05, 2011, 10:45:25 PM »

all religious belief must bow down to secular reasoning!

LOL. Spoken like a true liberal Anglican or Deist.
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« Reply #75 on: June 05, 2011, 10:47:23 PM »

all religious belief must bow down to secular reasoning!
Uhh....maybe false religions. The only one the Catholic Church bows to is Christ, her founder.
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« Reply #76 on: June 05, 2011, 10:49:06 PM »

I think YOUR the ones who are sinning mortally by being overscrupulously fasting!  And by forcing your children if you have them to do so!  Child protective services should beat down your door!  As 9/11 has taught us, all religious belief must bow down to secular reasoning!  9/11/01 is the great equalizer all religions must bow down before!

"I'm just following the rules of my church.  If you want to fault me for that, then I guess you can.  I don't see how me following the the fasting rules my church ask me to do is bad."
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« Reply #77 on: June 05, 2011, 11:11:56 PM »

I'm just following the rules of my church.  If you want to fault me for that, then I guess you can.  I don't see how me following the the fasting rules my church ask me to do is bad.  I think YOUR the ones who are sinning mortally by being overscrupulously fasting!  And by forcing your children if you have them to do so!  Child protective services should beat down your door!  As 9/11 has taught us, all religious belief must bow down to secular reasoning!  9/11/01 is the great equalizer all religions must bow down before!  After all, I'm an Italian, and you know what they say: God made us Catholics without making us Christians!

I don't know ANY CATHOLIC EVER WHO EVER follows Wed. and Fri. Fasting!  AND I Grew up in a heavily Catholic state from a family who were Catholic for centuries and even today I mainly associate with Catholics and I have never come across any of this brand of "Catholic" mentioned here.  Maybe you people have found them under a rock somewhere.  Give me their names, address, email, and telephone numbers so I can talk to them personally.  I almost guarantee your making this up.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

I think you are making this up too!!

I'll bet you don't know that there are Catholics who follow the Advent fast to this day too.

Many of the people that I know who follow the Wednesday and Friday fast are members of tertiary religious orders but not all of them.

Bet you think I am making that up too.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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« Reply #78 on: June 05, 2011, 11:17:42 PM »

What I'm wondering is if the Holy Father brings back traditional fasting practices, is Robb going to go schismatic over it? Tongue
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« Reply #79 on: June 05, 2011, 11:44:16 PM »

What I'm wondering is if the Holy Father brings back traditional fasting practices, is Robb going to go schismatic over it? Tongue

Well obviously the Pope would be irrational to do that. If people started fasting, what would this world come to? What would be next—Catholic terrorists flying planes into buildings?! (Those crazy Spanish Inquisitors get that way, you know, as soon as their protein deficiency kicks in. And nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.)
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« Reply #80 on: June 06, 2011, 12:04:12 AM »

I'm just following the rules of my church.  If you want to fault me for that, then I guess you can.  I don't see how me following the the fasting rules my church ask me to do is bad.  I think YOUR the ones who are sinning mortally by being overscrupulously fasting!  And by forcing your children if you have them to do so!  Child protective services should beat down your door!  As 9/11 has taught us, all religious belief must bow down to secular reasoning!  9/11/01 is the great equalizer all religions must bow down before!  After all, I'm an Italian, and you know what they say: God made us Catholics without making us Christians!

I don't know ANY CATHOLIC EVER WHO EVER follows Wed. and Fri. Fasting!  AND I Grew up in a heavily Catholic state from a family who were Catholic for centuries and even today I mainly associate with Catholics and I have never come across any of this brand of "Catholic" mentioned here.  Maybe you people have found them under a rock somewhere.  Give me their names, address, email, and telephone numbers so I can talk to them personally.  I almost guarantee your making this up.

Dominican Friars, Nuns, and Third Order members (including the Dominican Laity) have it in their rule to fast and abstain on every Wednesday and Friday unless it is a first class feast day (like Christmas) where they are dispensed from the fasting obligations. Dominican Nuns follow the "Black Fast" which is the ancient Orthodox fast during Great Lent and Christmas Lent. I am speaking from experience as I was a Dominican novice for two years in a cloistered monastery (Second Order - Nuns). I became a member of the Dominican Laity and remained as such until I became a catechumen and was Chrismated into Eastern Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #81 on: June 06, 2011, 12:40:27 AM »

I'm just following the rules of my church.  If you want to fault me for that, then I guess you can.  I don't see how me following the the fasting rules my church ask me to do is bad.  I think YOUR the ones who are sinning mortally by being overscrupulously fasting!  And by forcing your children if you have them to do so!  Child protective services should beat down your door!  As 9/11 has taught us, all religious belief must bow down to secular reasoning!  9/11/01 is the great equalizer all religions must bow down before!  After all, I'm an Italian, and you know what they say: God made us Catholics without making us Christians!

I don't know ANY CATHOLIC EVER WHO EVER follows Wed. and Fri. Fasting!  AND I Grew up in a heavily Catholic state from a family who were Catholic for centuries and even today I mainly associate with Catholics and I have never come across any of this brand of "Catholic" mentioned here.  Maybe you people have found them under a rock somewhere.  Give me their names, address, email, and telephone numbers so I can talk to them personally.  I almost guarantee your making this up.

Dominican Friars, Nuns, and Third Order members (including the Dominican Laity) have it in their rule to fast and abstain on every Wednesday and Friday unless it is a first class feast day (like Christmas) where they are dispensed from the fasting obligations. Dominican Nuns follow the "Black Fast" which is the ancient Orthodox fast during Great Lent and Christmas Lent. I am speaking from experience as I was a Dominican novice for two years in a cloistered monastery (Second Order - Nuns). I became a member of the Dominican Laity and remained as such until I became a catechumen and was Chrismated into Eastern Orthodoxy.

I didn't know your Dominican past, Maria. How nice! I myself have been in discernment with the Dominicans about joining them. And you are correct in what you say.
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« Reply #82 on: June 06, 2011, 12:45:27 AM »

What I'm wondering is if the Holy Father brings back traditional fasting practices, is Robb going to go schismatic over it? Tongue
Of course, if the Pope brought back these fastings, I will do my best to follow them, but I don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon.  As aforementioned, I followed my own church's fast and abstinence policies.  IF you want to follow your own church's fast, do what you think is right.  I'm still kind of leery about letting you emaciate your; letting your children follow them, maybe they could do something more mitigated until they get older.  I'm still not entirely clear about what this whole debate is over, considering I just do as my faith asks me to do, as some of you do of yours-- what are we arguing about?  Are you asking of me to keep the unnecessary OC fasting, which is entirely unnecessary even for you OC.  My philosophy is, it takes Diff'rnt Strokes to rule the world yes it does.  As long as you scandalize not those little ones, lest you die in your sin (with a millstone necklace).  Do what you do, but do what you do in love in what you do.  
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« Reply #83 on: June 06, 2011, 12:46:28 AM »

What I'm wondering is if the Holy Father brings back traditional fasting practices, is Robb going to go schismatic over it? Tongue
Of course, if the Pope brought back these fastings, I will do my best to follow them, but I don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon.  As aforementioned, I followed my own church's fast and abstinence policies.  IF you want to follow your own church's fast, do what you think is right.  I'm still kind of leery about letting you emaciate your; letting your children follow them, maybe they could do something more mitigated until they get older.  I'm still not entirely clear about what this whole debate is over, considering I just do as my faith asks me to do, as some of you do of yours-- what are we arguing about?  Are you asking of me to keep the unnecessary OC fasting, which is entirely unnecessary even for you OC.  My philosophy is, it takes Diff'rnt Strokes to rule the world yes it does.  As long as you scandalize not those little ones, lest you die in your sin (with a millstone necklace).  Do what you do, but do what you do in love in what you do.  
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« Reply #84 on: June 06, 2011, 12:47:02 AM »

This brought an enormous smile to my face. It's a passing shot of Pope Benedict in Croatia today. Those two young men are holding up a sign reading "Thanks to the Holy Father for Summorum Pontificum."

I'm so glad he got to see it. If only he knew how many of us love him dearly and thank him for doing the right thing for our Tradition!



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« Reply #85 on: June 06, 2011, 12:52:24 AM »

This brought an enormous smile to my face. It's a passing shot of Pope Benedict in Croatia today. Those two young men are holding up a sign reading "Thanks to the Holy Father for Summorum Pontificum."

I'm so glad he got to see it. If only he knew how many of us love him dearly and thank him for doing the right thing for our Tradition!



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Oh yeah, I like the Pope a lot too.  You might say him and I are kindred spirits.  angel  Sometimes I pretend like I'm having a conversation with him, and it scares me when he responds with things I did not already know.   Shocked Shocked Shocked
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« Reply #86 on: June 06, 2011, 01:02:35 AM »

What I'm wondering is if the Holy Father brings back traditional fasting practices, is Robb going to go schismatic over it? Tongue
Of course, if the Pope brought back these fastings, I will do my best to follow them, but I don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon.  As aforementioned, I followed my own church's fast and abstinence policies.  IF you want to follow your own church's fast, do what you think is right.  I'm still kind of leery about letting you emaciate your; letting your children follow them, maybe they could do something more mitigated until they get older.  I'm still not entirely clear about what this whole debate is over, considering I just do as my faith asks me to do, as some of you do of yours-- what are we arguing about?  Are you asking of me to keep the unnecessary OC fasting, which is entirely unnecessary even for you OC.  My philosophy is, it takes Diff'rnt Strokes to rule the world yes it does.  As long as you scandalize not those little ones, lest you die in your sin (with a millstone necklace).  Do what you do, but do what you do in love in what you do.  


The traditional fasting practices don't "emaciate" anyone. Get real.
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« Reply #87 on: June 06, 2011, 01:07:30 AM »

I think YOUR the ones who are sinning mortally by being overscrupulously fasting!  And by forcing your children if you have them to do so!  Child protective services should beat down your door!  As 9/11 has taught us, all religious belief must bow down to secular reasoning! 

What a ridiculous comment.   How can anyone take you seriously?  Some vegetarians I know are among the most healthy families there are.  They fast more scrupulously and have healthy families.   Our family feasts heartily and fasts heartily.  We are the better for it.   Maybe the authorities should  be beating down your door for endorsing fat families with fat kids who are killing them slowly with hormoned meat.  Then again, I would be in the same camp.  But then again, I don't endorse a ridiculous secularism like you.   Take your nominalism and stuff it in a chicken with your ignorant view of what sin is seasoned with secularism.   But don't eat it.  Its poisoned.  
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« Reply #88 on: June 06, 2011, 01:09:56 AM »

Robb, If you are not making some sort of penitential observance of every Friday, I think you're falling short. It's not that hard!

Well me and msot other Catholics are all in the same boat.  Your a "trad" so how can I trust anything you say as accurate.  We all know how your kind operate and what you want us all to do (Hint, clingy, lingy, incenssing and lacy).  I'd rather follow my priest counsel then resort to getting spiriutal advice on the internet from some guy who I have no knowledge of and, for all I know could be some kind of pervert or fraud. 

Then get off this forum and leave the rest of us who take matters of faith seriously to discuss it.   
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« Reply #89 on: June 06, 2011, 02:35:22 AM »

I think YOUR the ones who are sinning mortally by being overscrupulously fasting!  And by forcing your children if you have them to do so!  Child protective services should beat down your door!  As 9/11 has taught us, all religious belief must bow down to secular reasoning! 

What a ridiculous comment.   How can anyone take you seriously?  Some vegetarians I know are among the most healthy families there are.  They fast more scrupulously and have healthy families.   Our family feasts heartily and fasts heartily.  We are the better for it.   Maybe the authorities should  be beating down your door for endorsing fat families with fat kids who are killing them slowly with hormoned meat.  Then again, I would be in the same camp.  But then again, I don't endorse a ridiculous secularism like you.   Take your nominalism and stuff it in a chicken with your ignorant view of what sin is seasoned with secularism.   But don't eat it.  Its poisoned.  

Your point is conceded.  I admit to having dealt harshly with this issue, but this is probably due to some psychological factors I have been going through.  I really think that, as a priest you should try to use a more civil tone when discussing this issue with me.  People look to you for calmness and guidance on matters of faith, not as a person who would verbally assault a man in a mentally weakened state.  I am sorry for offenses given though (If this would help cool your temper towards me).

Here is an article on the fasting and abstinence practiced by my religion.  I try my best to follow my Churches guidelines on the matter as well as the directives of my spiritual adviser.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasting_and_abstinence_in_the_Roman_Catholic_Church
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Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
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