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Author Topic: The discipline of fasting/abstinence: traditional norms outdated?  (Read 4867 times) Average Rating: 0
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Robb
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« on: June 02, 2011, 04:39:26 PM »

Some of these changes may, over time be implemented.  However, while the RCC may re-institute Friday abstinence (As was done in the UK recently) I seriously doubt they are going to reintroduce Eastern style fasting disciplines on Catholics.  If anything the majority of EO's might mitigate these fast officially in the near future (Considering the vast majority of EO's have ceased to regularly observe them).  Although some might consider it minimalism, it makes for more sense to have fasting rules which, although simpler are more doable for people in this day and age then it is to cling to antiquated and medevil rules which are unrealistic and overly Platonic.
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« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2011, 11:51:19 PM »

If anything the majority of EO's might mitigate these fast officially in the near future (Considering the vast majority of EO's have ceased to regularly observe them).

Not gonna happen.  

Quote
Although some might consider it minimalism, it makes for more sense to have fasting rules which, although simpler are more doable for people in this day and age then it is to cling to antiquated and medevil rules which are unrealistic and overly Platonic.

There's nothing unrealistic about the Orthodox fasting rules- some people keep the fast rules quite well. For the rest of us, the challenge is humbling and the struggle can be fruitful. There's no struggle in eating fish on Fridays. 

As for "medieval"... modernity leaves us with even fewer excuses from fasting than our medieval forebears, with the many varied, wholesome, and delicious fast-friendly ingredients readily available to us.

As for "overly Platonic"... do you have any idea what you're talking about?
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« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2011, 11:59:35 PM »

There's no struggle in eating fish on Fridays. 
I don't know, by the end of Lent I am pretty sick of fish.  Cheesy
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Robb
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« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2011, 03:32:17 AM »

If anything the majority of EO's might mitigate these fast officially in the near future (Considering the vast majority of EO's have ceased to regularly observe them).

Not gonna happen.  

Quote
Although some might consider it minimalism, it makes for more sense to have fasting rules which, although simpler are more doable for people in this day and age then it is to cling to antiquated and medevil rules which are unrealistic and overly Platonic.

There's nothing unrealistic about the Orthodox fasting rules- some people keep the fast rules quite well. For the rest of us, the challenge is humbling and the struggle can be fruitful. There's no struggle in eating fish on Fridays.  

As for "medieval"... modernity leaves us with even fewer excuses from fasting than our medieval forebears, with the many varied, wholesome, and delicious fast-friendly ingredients readily available to us.

As for "overly Platonic"... do you have any idea what you're talking about?

Yes, I wouldn't have said "overly Platonic" if I didn't know what I was talking about.  

I'm sure there are some OC's who devoutly observe the rigorous fasting rules, it's just that they are a small minority compared to the majority who don't keep them.

Would not it be better to just mitigate the fasting rules of your Church to something that's more realistic and doable for those alive today instead of clinging to something that was institute in a different time and a different world?
Laugh if you will at my RCC's weak fasting and abstinence rules, but at least the majority of our faithful can comply with them without disrupting their natural lives to any great degree. They aren't easy to achieve as you may think so either.  On Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, I am usually starved by midnight after only being allowed one full meal and two collations.  It's not an easy task to master for us who live in a world which does not emphasis any sort of self denial.  Heaven only knows that I've almost been tempted to break under the strain of our RC Lenten fast, but thankfully I always managed to hold off on the hot dogs till after midnight.
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« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2011, 08:47:17 AM »

If anything the majority of EO's might mitigate these fast officially in the near future (Considering the vast majority of EO's have ceased to regularly observe them).

Not gonna happen.  

Quote
Although some might consider it minimalism, it makes for more sense to have fasting rules which, although simpler are more doable for people in this day and age then it is to cling to antiquated and medevil rules which are unrealistic and overly Platonic.

There's nothing unrealistic about the Orthodox fasting rules- some people keep the fast rules quite well. For the rest of us, the challenge is humbling and the struggle can be fruitful. There's no struggle in eating fish on Fridays.  

As for "medieval"... modernity leaves us with even fewer excuses from fasting than our medieval forebears, with the many varied, wholesome, and delicious fast-friendly ingredients readily available to us.

As for "overly Platonic"... do you have any idea what you're talking about?

Yes, I wouldn't have said "overly Platonic" if I didn't know what I was talking about.  

I'm sure there are some OC's who devoutly observe the rigorous fasting rules, it's just that they are a small minority compared to the majority who don't keep them.

Would not it be better to just mitigate the fasting rules of your Church to something that's more realistic and doable for those alive today instead of clinging to something that was institute in a different time and a different world?
Laugh if you will at my RCC's weak fasting and abstinence rules, but at least the majority of our faithful can comply with them without disrupting their natural lives to any great degree. They aren't easy to achieve as you may think so either.  On Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, I am usually starved by midnight after only being allowed one full meal and two collations.  It's not an easy task to master for us who live in a world which does not emphasis any sort of self denial.  Heaven only knows that I've almost been tempted to break under the strain of our RC Lenten fast, but thankfully I always managed to hold off on the hot dogs till after midnight.

Robb...really...

I think one of the things that is not good about the Orthodox fast is the legalistic and inordinate attention paid by so many to ALL those lovely tasty and expensive substitutes one can use to hold to the letter of the law but not its spirit. 

As Robb says there are very few who dry fast but, by God, I admire those who do, especially those who have children.
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« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2011, 09:27:11 AM »

ALL those lovely tasty and expensive substitutes one can use to hold to the letter of the law but not its spirit.

I don't know about the "expensive" stuff, but I've noticed myself avoiding the "lovely and tasty" things permitted for fasting when I'm not fasting.

Quote
As Robb says there are very few who dry fast but, by God, I admire those who do, especially those who have children.

This is actually the "legalism" I am starting to make progress on getting over. I don't have children, but I am still learning to eat shared meals prepared by someone else and try not to be too strict when cooking for someone else. It may be easy to keep the rules by occasionally using some form of shellfish (some not really that expensive) for extra protein, but I find it hard (but doable) to break the rules in instances where it would be more appropriate than keeping them (eating my sister's cooking).
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« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2011, 10:03:14 AM »

Jesus said to be perfect, knowing full well many wouldn't reach that goal. He didn't say "Be as nice as you can."

The church doesn't slacken its standards just because people don't do it. They are goals to be worked towards. Nobody gets ripped by lifting 2-pound barbells. You start there with the goal of lifting 50-pound ones. But no goal, no growth.
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« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2011, 10:41:53 AM »

If anything the majority of EO's might mitigate these fast officially in the near future (Considering the vast majority of EO's have ceased to regularly observe them).

Not gonna happen.  

Quote
Although some might consider it minimalism, it makes for more sense to have fasting rules which, although simpler are more doable for people in this day and age then it is to cling to antiquated and medevil rules which are unrealistic and overly Platonic.

There's nothing unrealistic about the Orthodox fasting rules- some people keep the fast rules quite well. For the rest of us, the challenge is humbling and the struggle can be fruitful. There's no struggle in eating fish on Fridays.  

As for "medieval"... modernity leaves us with even fewer excuses from fasting than our medieval forebears, with the many varied, wholesome, and delicious fast-friendly ingredients readily available to us.

As for "overly Platonic"... do you have any idea what you're talking about?

Yes, I wouldn't have said "overly Platonic" if I didn't know what I was talking about.  

I'm sure there are some OC's who devoutly observe the rigorous fasting rules, it's just that they are a small minority compared to the majority who don't keep them.

Would not it be better to just mitigate the fasting rules of your Church to something that's more realistic and doable for those alive today instead of clinging to something that was institute in a different time and a different world?
Laugh if you will at my RCC's weak fasting and abstinence rules, but at least the majority of our faithful can comply with them without disrupting their natural lives to any great degree. They aren't easy to achieve as you may think so either.  On Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, I am usually starved by midnight after only being allowed one full meal and two collations.  It's not an easy task to master for us who live in a world which does not emphasis any sort of self denial.  Heaven only knows that I've almost been tempted to break under the strain of our RC Lenten fast, but thankfully I always managed to hold off on the hot dogs till after midnight.

One of the main points of fasting is to disrupt our culinary lives to a great degree.  I am a firm believer that if you can't eat a vegan meal twice a week, barring medical issues, there really is something wrong with you and, God forgive me, you (which let me be clear I'm using in the most general sense) are lazy, selfish fool who can't be bothered to exert a little effort for the sake of bringing your body in line with your soul.

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« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2011, 11:42:29 AM »

I think one of the things that is not good about the Orthodox fast is the legalistic and inordinate attention paid by so many to ALL those lovely tasty and expensive substitutes one can use to hold to the letter of the law but not its spirit.
I think this is true with the meat abstinence in our Church too. I think it is kind of strange that I could technically go to Red Lobster and have lobster tail, scallops, shrimp scampi, etc. and not be breaking my meat abstinence on a Friday during Lent.
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« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2011, 02:19:37 PM »

One of the main points of fasting is to disrupt our culinary lives to a great degree.  I am a firm believer that if you can't eat a vegan meal twice a week, barring medical issues, there really is something wrong with you and, God forgive me, you (which let me be clear I'm using in the most general sense) are lazy, selfish fool who can't be bothered to exert a little effort for the sake of bringing your body in line with your soul.

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« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2011, 02:21:22 PM »

One of the main points of fasting is to disrupt our culinary lives to a great degree.  I am a firm believer that if you can't eat a vegan meal twice a week, barring medical issues, there really is something wrong with you and, God forgive me, you (which let me be clear I'm using in the most general sense) are lazy, selfish fool who can't be bothered to exert a little effort for the sake of bringing your body in line with your soul.

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« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2011, 06:14:04 PM »

I think one of the things that is not good about the Orthodox fast is the legalistic and inordinate attention paid by so many to ALL those lovely tasty and expensive substitutes one can use to hold to the letter of the law but not its spirit.
I think this is true with the meat abstinence in our Church too. I think it is kind of strange that I could technically go to Red Lobster and have lobster tail, scallops, shrimp scampi, etc. and not be breaking my meat abstinence on a Friday during Lent.
The rules give you a minimum obligation. No one prevents you from doing more than the minimum. 
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« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2011, 08:34:03 PM »

ALL those lovely tasty and expensive substitutes one can use to hold to the letter of the law but not its spirit.

I don't know about the "expensive" stuff, but I've noticed myself avoiding the "lovely and tasty" things permitted for fasting when I'm not fasting.

Quote
As Robb says there are very few who dry fast but, by God, I admire those who do, especially those who have children.

This is actually the "legalism" I am starting to make progress on getting over. I don't have children, but I am still learning to eat shared meals prepared by someone else and try not to be too strict when cooking for someone else. It may be easy to keep the rules by occasionally using some form of shellfish (some not really that expensive) for extra protein, but I find it hard (but doable) to break the rules in instances where it would be more appropriate than keeping them (eating my sister's cooking).

Knowing the people of whom I speak personally, I must say this is most insulting.  These are good people who are both cradle and convert and they do what they do with great love and NO fanfare and their children are exemplary in the Church and in life.

You need to check yourself on this one.

I am not upset...Simply stating a few facts.
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« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2011, 08:53:55 PM »

ALL those lovely tasty and expensive substitutes one can use to hold to the letter of the law but not its spirit.

I don't know about the "expensive" stuff, but I've noticed myself avoiding the "lovely and tasty" things permitted for fasting when I'm not fasting.

Quote
As Robb says there are very few who dry fast but, by God, I admire those who do, especially those who have children.

This is actually the "legalism" I am starting to make progress on getting over. I don't have children, but I am still learning to eat shared meals prepared by someone else and try not to be too strict when cooking for someone else. It may be easy to keep the rules by occasionally using some form of shellfish (some not really that expensive) for extra protein, but I find it hard (but doable) to break the rules in instances where it would be more appropriate than keeping them (eating my sister's cooking).

Knowing the people of whom I speak personally, I must say this is most insulting.  These are good people who are both cradle and convert and they do what they do with great love and NO fanfare and their children are exemplary in the Church and in life.

You need to check yourself on this one.

I am not upset...Simply stating a few facts.
Um, what exactly are you feeling "insulted" about?
I think you've may be misread something somewhere.
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« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2011, 09:29:03 PM »

ALL those lovely tasty and expensive substitutes one can use to hold to the letter of the law but not its spirit.

I don't know about the "expensive" stuff, but I've noticed myself avoiding the "lovely and tasty" things permitted for fasting when I'm not fasting.

Quote
As Robb says there are very few who dry fast but, by God, I admire those who do, especially those who have children.

This is actually the "legalism" I am starting to make progress on getting over. I don't have children, but I am still learning to eat shared meals prepared by someone else and try not to be too strict when cooking for someone else. It may be easy to keep the rules by occasionally using some form of shellfish (some not really that expensive) for extra protein, but I find it hard (but doable) to break the rules in instances where it would be more appropriate than keeping them (eating my sister's cooking).

Knowing the people of whom I speak personally, I must say this is most insulting.  These are good people who are both cradle and convert and they do what they do with great love and NO fanfare and their children are exemplary in the Church and in life.

You need to check yourself on this one.

I am not upset...Simply stating a few facts.

I don't mean to be insulting, only saying that the rules are the means and not the end. As I said, having learned the rules and put them into practice, I'm still working on learning to follow them according to the spirit. I have figured out that eating nothing but beans, rice, and water can be just as legalistic as eating crab meat, vegan meat substitutes, and reading the labels on everything to find the one brand that doesn't use certain ingredients in the general product you desire. Not to mention the time I told my mom not to make me a cake for my birthday (which falls in lent) because it had milk and eggs in it (this was a couple of years ago when i first started following the rules - and very strictly). I don't know the people you are referring to and can't say anything about them personally, so I meant nothing toward anyone in particular.
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« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2011, 09:50:09 PM »

ALL those lovely tasty and expensive substitutes one can use to hold to the letter of the law but not its spirit.

I don't know about the "expensive" stuff, but I've noticed myself avoiding the "lovely and tasty" things permitted for fasting when I'm not fasting.

Quote
As Robb says there are very few who dry fast but, by God, I admire those who do, especially those who have children.

This is actually the "legalism" I am starting to make progress on getting over. I don't have children, but I am still learning to eat shared meals prepared by someone else and try not to be too strict when cooking for someone else. It may be easy to keep the rules by occasionally using some form of shellfish (some not really that expensive) for extra protein, but I find it hard (but doable) to break the rules in instances where it would be more appropriate than keeping them (eating my sister's cooking).

Knowing the people of whom I speak personally, I must say this is most insulting.  These are good people who are both cradle and convert and they do what they do with great love and NO fanfare and their children are exemplary in the Church and in life.

You need to check yourself on this one.

I am not upset...Simply stating a few facts.

I don't mean to be insulting, only saying that the rules are the means and not the end. As I said, having learned the rules and put them into practice, I'm still working on learning to follow them according to the spirit. I have figured out that eating nothing but beans, rice, and water can be just as legalistic as eating crab meat, vegan meat substitutes, and reading the labels on everything to find the one brand that doesn't use certain ingredients in the general product you desire. Not to mention the time I told my mom not to make me a cake for my birthday (which falls in lent) because it had milk and eggs in it (this was a couple of years ago when i first started following the rules - and very strictly). I don't know the people you are referring to and can't say anything about them personally, so I meant nothing toward anyone in particular.

Yes.  It is not a matter of comparing, and that is key to the avoidance of many faults.

It is not good to presume anything about anyone's practice as you say you did not and I believe you did not.  It just seemed you were saying that all strictness was legalistic and that of course is neither real nor true...So I do understand what you were thinking about now.
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« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2011, 10:09:33 PM »

I think one of the things that is not good about the Orthodox fast is the legalistic and inordinate attention paid by so many to ALL those lovely tasty and expensive substitutes one can use to hold to the letter of the law but not its spirit.
I think this is true with the meat abstinence in our Church too. I think it is kind of strange that I could technically go to Red Lobster and have lobster tail, scallops, shrimp scampi, etc. and not be breaking my meat abstinence on a Friday during Lent.
The rules give you a minimum obligation. No one prevents you from doing more than the minimum. 
Right, I know, and I'm not saying I have ever actually went to Red Lobster during Lent because I actually haven't. I'm just saying that I think it is weird that there is such a huge loophole that someone could actually pig out at Red Lobster and still not have broken the Friday abstinence.
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« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2011, 11:04:02 PM »

I think one of the things that is not good about the Orthodox fast is the legalistic and inordinate attention paid by so many to ALL those lovely tasty and expensive substitutes one can use to hold to the letter of the law but not its spirit.
I think this is true with the meat abstinence in our Church too. I think it is kind of strange that I could technically go to Red Lobster and have lobster tail, scallops, shrimp scampi, etc. and not be breaking my meat abstinence on a Friday during Lent.
The rules give you a minimum obligation. No one prevents you from doing more than the minimum.  
Right, I know, and I'm not saying I have ever actually went to Red Lobster during Lent because I actually haven't. I'm just saying that I think it is weird that there is such a huge loophole that someone could actually pig out at Red Lobster and still not have broken the Friday abstinence.

Once a Greek Orthodox Priest was eating out with his family at Red Lobster. They chose something a little less expensive that day as it was a Friday and they wanted to keep the fast, but a parishioner saw the Priest and came over to his table.

The man asked, "Father, since we are ordering lobster, would it be okay to have butter with it? Lobster does not taste good without the butter sauce."

Father responded, "Since you have just purchased lobster, which is a very expensive meal, sure go ahead and enjoy the butter too, but that is not really the spirit of Lent."


At a Bible Study class, we were studying the reason for fasting. Father gave this example of how not to fast. The Priest was blessing a home, and it just happened to be on a Friday. He mentioned that when we fast, we fast to curb our tongue learn to say no to sin, and curb our appetite as gluttony can lead to lust.

So the family prepared a spaghetti dinner (without the meat balls). Here was the conversation:

The father of the family: "Father, would you like to have an extra serving. It looks like you could afford to put on some weight."

Priest: "No thanks."

Father of the family: "Are you sure you do not want another helping?"

Priest: "No thanks. Really, I have had plenty of delicious food. Thanks again for having me over for dinner."

Father of the family: "Well, I am going to have a huge second helping. Honey, this food is exquisite."



« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 11:04:39 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2011, 12:11:11 AM »

Good parable.  The rules are only a means to an end - not the end point.  Nonetheless the rules were framed as they are framed with adherence to them expected, by most Orthodox Christians who are serious in their faith.  For the young, elderly and infirm and for particular reasons shared with one's priest, exceptions can be made.  They are however exceptions - not the rule.  There is so much convenience in off the shelf foods - even vegan foods that comply with fasting rules, so there is no excuse to say our modern life is too busy to fast.
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« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2011, 04:03:54 AM »

I think one of the things that is not good about the Orthodox fast is the legalistic and inordinate attention paid by so many to ALL those lovely tasty and expensive substitutes one can use to hold to the letter of the law but not its spirit.
I think this is true with the meat abstinence in our Church too. I think it is kind of strange that I could technically go to Red Lobster and have lobster tail, scallops, shrimp scampi, etc. and not be breaking my meat abstinence on a Friday during Lent.
The rules give you a minimum obligation. No one prevents you from doing more than the minimum. 
Right, I know, and I'm not saying I have ever actually went to Red Lobster during Lent because I actually haven't. I'm just saying that I think it is weird that there is such a huge loophole that someone could actually pig out at Red Lobster and still not have broken the Friday abstinence.
I guess the idea is not to look for too many loopholes, but to act in the spirit of the law.
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« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2011, 04:26:53 AM »

I think one of the things that is not good about the Orthodox fast is the legalistic and inordinate attention paid by so many to ALL those lovely tasty and expensive substitutes one can use to hold to the letter of the law but not its spirit.
I think this is true with the meat abstinence in our Church too. I think it is kind of strange that I could technically go to Red Lobster and have lobster tail, scallops, shrimp scampi, etc. and not be breaking my meat abstinence on a Friday during Lent.
The rules give you a minimum obligation. No one prevents you from doing more than the minimum. 
Right, I know, and I'm not saying I have ever actually went to Red Lobster during Lent because I actually haven't. I'm just saying that I think it is weird that there is such a huge loophole that someone could actually pig out at Red Lobster and still not have broken the Friday abstinence.
Sorry I'm too lazy and pressed for time to deeply review this entire thread, but I can't imagine going to Red Lobster and obtaining a Lenten meal applying the rules as I always have. Perhaps I am too legalistic myself but even pigging out on a bowl of plain rice would violate fasting spirit, much less trying to apply the rules in a Red Lobster where to lobster may be Lenten (it is not to the Coptics, IIRC) but plain lobster is a waste and unappetizing as well.
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« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2011, 10:15:21 AM »

I think one of the things that is not good about the Orthodox fast is the legalistic and inordinate attention paid by so many to ALL those lovely tasty and expensive substitutes one can use to hold to the letter of the law but not its spirit.
I think this is true with the meat abstinence in our Church too. I think it is kind of strange that I could technically go to Red Lobster and have lobster tail, scallops, shrimp scampi, etc. and not be breaking my meat abstinence on a Friday during Lent.


The rules give you a minimum obligation. No one prevents you from doing more than the minimum.  
Right, I know, and I'm not saying I have ever actually went to Red Lobster during Lent because I actually haven't. I'm just saying that I think it is weird that there is such a huge loophole that someone could actually pig out at Red Lobster and still not have broken the Friday abstinence.
Sorry I'm too lazy and pressed for time to deeply review this entire thread, but I can't imagine going to Red Lobster and obtaining a Lenten meal applying the rules as I always have. Perhaps I am too legalistic myself but even pigging out on a bowl of plain rice would violate fasting spirit, much less trying to apply the rules in a Red Lobster where to lobster may be Lenten (it is not to the Coptics, IIRC) but plain lobster is a waste and unappetizing as well.

Plain lobster is exquisite.  If one can obtain it without excessive cost then it is a great boon to the fast.
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« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2011, 12:05:19 PM »

I think one of the things that is not good about the Orthodox fast is the legalistic and inordinate attention paid by so many to ALL those lovely tasty and expensive substitutes one can use to hold to the letter of the law but not its spirit.
I think this is true with the meat abstinence in our Church too. I think it is kind of strange that I could technically go to Red Lobster and have lobster tail, scallops, shrimp scampi, etc. and not be breaking my meat abstinence on a Friday during Lent.
The rules give you a minimum obligation. No one prevents you from doing more than the minimum. 
Right, I know, and I'm not saying I have ever actually went to Red Lobster during Lent because I actually haven't. I'm just saying that I think it is weird that there is such a huge loophole that someone could actually pig out at Red Lobster and still not have broken the Friday abstinence.
I guess the idea is not to look for too many loopholes, but to act in the spirit of the law.
Of course, I agree with you. However, I don't think it would hurt for our Church to tighten the abstinence and fasting rule a bit for those who perhaps are struggling more in that area.
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« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2011, 12:06:50 PM »

Nothing wrong with a plate of the poor man's lobster...Louisiana style crawdads
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« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2011, 12:15:02 PM »

Nothing wrong with a plate of the poor man's lobster...Louisiana style crawdads
I suppose, to an extent, there is no one-size-fits-all when it comes to fasting. I mean, if crawfish is like someone's absolute favorite dish then they should probably abstain from it during penitential times. For me, it seems like there is a lot of seafood I probably should not eat during Lent because of how much I love seafood. My best bet is to stick with plain fish or just go vegetarian on those days.
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« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2011, 04:49:53 PM »

If anything the majority of EO's might mitigate these fast officially in the near future (Considering the vast majority of EO's have ceased to regularly observe them).

Not gonna happen.  

Quote
Although some might consider it minimalism, it makes for more sense to have fasting rules which, although simpler are more doable for people in this day and age then it is to cling to antiquated and medevil rules which are unrealistic and overly Platonic.

There's nothing unrealistic about the Orthodox fasting rules- some people keep the fast rules quite well. For the rest of us, the challenge is humbling and the struggle can be fruitful. There's no struggle in eating fish on Fridays.  

As for "medieval"... modernity leaves us with even fewer excuses from fasting than our medieval forebears, with the many varied, wholesome, and delicious fast-friendly ingredients readily available to us.

As for "overly Platonic"... do you have any idea what you're talking about?

Yes, I wouldn't have said "overly Platonic" if I didn't know what I was talking about.  

I'm sure there are some OC's who devoutly observe the rigorous fasting rules, it's just that they are a small minority compared to the majority who don't keep them.

Would not it be better to just mitigate the fasting rules of your Church to something that's more realistic and doable for those alive today instead of clinging to something that was institute in a different time and a different world?
Laugh if you will at my RCC's weak fasting and abstinence rules, but at least the majority of our faithful can comply with them without disrupting their natural lives to any great degree. They aren't easy to achieve as you may think so either.  On Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, I am usually starved by midnight after only being allowed one full meal and two collations.  It's not an easy task to master for us who live in a world which does not emphasis any sort of self denial.  Heaven only knows that I've almost been tempted to break under the strain of our RC Lenten fast, but thankfully I always managed to hold off on the hot dogs till after midnight.

One of the main points of fasting is to disrupt our culinary lives to a great degree.  I am a firm believer that if you can't eat a vegan meal twice a week, barring medical issues, there really is something wrong with you and, God forgive me, you (which let me be clear I'm using in the most general sense) are lazy, selfish fool who can't be bothered to exert a little effort for the sake of bringing your body in line with your soul.



Well, that's your opinion.  My Church thinks and teaches otherwise.  The Vatican believes that by mitigating the fasting rules, more people will be able to follow them.  Of course you can do more if you wish, but that's something that's entirely on your plate.  The RCC doesn't force any type of spiritual progression onto her members.  We believe in free will and any type of spiritual development on the part of an individual must come from within them and not due to forced coercion or fear of damnation for not having done so.

Also I would seriously have to argue about the healthiness of keeping such severe and rigorous fasting as perscribed by Orthodoxy.  Modern science tells us that the human body needs the proteins that such foods as meats, fish, and dairy products give us on a regular basis.  Is it right then to deprive ourselves and especially our children of these vital nutrients because of an attempt to cling to an antiquated way of spiritual development that some people came up with in the first millennium?  Look at the so called "Vegans".  They are known to suffer from all kinds of deficiencies and malnutrition due to their supposedly health lifestyle.  Is this what we want for ourselves?

I understand the attachment of some to fasting and its supposed benefits.  I just can't help but feel that the type of fasting and self denial that is proscribed by the OC is not healthy for a normal human being to endure.  My Church obviously feels the same way since she long ago did away with such rigorous style of self discipline as the ancient fasting rules were. 
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« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2011, 05:02:51 PM »

If anything the majority of EO's might mitigate these fast officially in the near future (Considering the vast majority of EO's have ceased to regularly observe them).

Not gonna happen.  

Quote
Although some might consider it minimalism, it makes for more sense to have fasting rules which, although simpler are more doable for people in this day and age then it is to cling to antiquated and medevil rules which are unrealistic and overly Platonic.

There's nothing unrealistic about the Orthodox fasting rules- some people keep the fast rules quite well. For the rest of us, the challenge is humbling and the struggle can be fruitful. There's no struggle in eating fish on Fridays.  

As for "medieval"... modernity leaves us with even fewer excuses from fasting than our medieval forebears, with the many varied, wholesome, and delicious fast-friendly ingredients readily available to us.

As for "overly Platonic"... do you have any idea what you're talking about?

Yes, I wouldn't have said "overly Platonic" if I didn't know what I was talking about.  

I'm sure there are some OC's who devoutly observe the rigorous fasting rules, it's just that they are a small minority compared to the majority who don't keep them.

Would not it be better to just mitigate the fasting rules of your Church to something that's more realistic and doable for those alive today instead of clinging to something that was institute in a different time and a different world?
Laugh if you will at my RCC's weak fasting and abstinence rules, but at least the majority of our faithful can comply with them without disrupting their natural lives to any great degree. They aren't easy to achieve as you may think so either.  On Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, I am usually starved by midnight after only being allowed one full meal and two collations.  It's not an easy task to master for us who live in a world which does not emphasis any sort of self denial.  Heaven only knows that I've almost been tempted to break under the strain of our RC Lenten fast, but thankfully I always managed to hold off on the hot dogs till after midnight.

One of the main points of fasting is to disrupt our culinary lives to a great degree.  I am a firm believer that if you can't eat a vegan meal twice a week, barring medical issues, there really is something wrong with you and, God forgive me, you (which let me be clear I'm using in the most general sense) are lazy, selfish fool who can't be bothered to exert a little effort for the sake of bringing your body in line with your soul.



Well, that's your opinion.  My Church thinks and teaches otherwise.  The Vatican believes that by mitigating the fasting rules, more people will be able to follow them.  Of course you can do more if you wish, but that's something that's entirely on your plate.  The RCC doesn't force any type of spiritual progression onto her members.  We believe in free will and any type of spiritual development on the part of an individual must come from within them and not due to forced coercion or fear of damnation for not having done so.

Really?  It's still technically a mortal sin to not do some sort of asectic fast on Fridays.  Unconfessed mortal sin leaves one soul in danger of damnation.

Quote
Also I would seriously have to argue about the healthiness of keeping such severe and rigorous fasting as perscribed by Orthodoxy.  Modern science tells us that the human body needs the proteins that such foods as meats, fish, and dairy products give us on a regular basis.  Is it right then to deprive ourselves and especially our children of these vital nutrients because of an attempt to cling to an antiquated way of spiritual development that some people came up with in the first millennium?  Look at the so called "Vegans".  They are known to suffer from all kinds of deficiencies and malnutrition due to their supposedly health lifestyle.  Is this what we want for ourselves?

I understand the attachment of some to fasting and its supposed benefits.  I just can't help but feel that the type of fasting and self denial that is proscribed by the OC is not healthy for a normal human being to endure.  My Church obviously feels the same way since she long ago did away with such rigorous style of self discipline as the ancient fasting rules were.  


Yep, all these successful athletes (these ones, too...including a 4-time Mr. Universe!) suffer from all sorts of deficiencies and malnutrition.

There are far more omnivores who suffer from far more deficiencies and diet-related illnesses than vegans and vegetarians.  If you suffer from malnutrition from a vegan diet, you're simply doing it wrong.  And that's on the person, not on the diet itself.

Nice try, but, once again, an EPIC FAIL.

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« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2011, 05:06:17 PM »

Normal fasting does not put people's health at risk, Robb. That is silly. People with much poorer nutrition have fasted more strictly than many do today. The monks on Mt Athos don't seem to be dropping dead over it.

The protein thing is overblown. We don't need as much protein as people seem to think we do, unless we're pro athletes or something. And there is protein in beans, which are eaten abundantly during fasts.

With obesity an epidemic these days I don't think fasting normally is going to kill anyone. Silly talk.
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« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2011, 05:30:45 PM »

Normal fasting does not put people's health at risk, Robb. That is silly. People with much poorer nutrition have fasted more strictly than many do today. The monks on Mt Athos don't seem to be dropping dead over it.

The protein thing is overblown. We don't need as much protein as people seem to think we do, unless we're pro athletes or something. And there is protein in beans, which are eaten abundantly during fasts.

With obesity an epidemic these days I don't think fasting normally is going to kill anyone. Silly talk.

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time buying into the idea of abstaining from most of the major food groups for around half the year is a healthy way to live.  I'm especially Leary of having children do such things due to the unhealthy way that it could stunt growth.  

Also, I'm not sure about RC's still required to do some type of "ascetic" fasting on Fridays.  I've heard such drivel pedaled around (Mostly by right wing RC's over the year's).  However as far as I know the U.S. bishops dispensed all Catholics from abstaining form meat on Fridays and only recommended that they replace it with some type of penance (Which can be somethings simple as saying a prayer).

When I was OC, the thing that I struggled with the most was fasting (Which I never really even tried to practice).  I wasn't raised on self denial at all.  My parents pretty much said  "Hey, your hungry then eat,or tired then sleep".  Most OC priest I confessed to didn't give me a hard time about it.  They would just say "Do the best you can" (Which I took for code to mean "don't worry about it").  The only priest to give me trouble about it was a Serb one who I confessed to not fasting on Great Friday.  He screeched at me "you didn't fast on the holiest day of the year" to which I replied "no".  He then refused to commune me until the following week because of it.  It was then that I really first realized that Orthodoxy was kind of a crazy strict religion and I seriously started debating with myself about returning to the RCC.

That's one of the things that I like best about Catholicism.  It's a pretty easy religion.  The Church practically goes out of it's way to accommodate her faithful by not requiring too much of them.  That's the way I like things.  Nice and easy.  
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« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2011, 05:36:47 PM »

If anything the majority of EO's might mitigate these fast officially in the near future (Considering the vast majority of EO's have ceased to regularly observe them).

Not gonna happen.  

Quote
Although some might consider it minimalism, it makes for more sense to have fasting rules which, although simpler are more doable for people in this day and age then it is to cling to antiquated and medevil rules which are unrealistic and overly Platonic.

There's nothing unrealistic about the Orthodox fasting rules- some people keep the fast rules quite well. For the rest of us, the challenge is humbling and the struggle can be fruitful. There's no struggle in eating fish on Fridays.  

As for "medieval"... modernity leaves us with even fewer excuses from fasting than our medieval forebears, with the many varied, wholesome, and delicious fast-friendly ingredients readily available to us.

As for "overly Platonic"... do you have any idea what you're talking about?

Yes, I wouldn't have said "overly Platonic" if I didn't know what I was talking about.  

I'm sure there are some OC's who devoutly observe the rigorous fasting rules, it's just that they are a small minority compared to the majority who don't keep them.

Would not it be better to just mitigate the fasting rules of your Church to something that's more realistic and doable for those alive today instead of clinging to something that was institute in a different time and a different world?
Laugh if you will at my RCC's weak fasting and abstinence rules, but at least the majority of our faithful can comply with them without disrupting their natural lives to any great degree. They aren't easy to achieve as you may think so either.  On Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, I am usually starved by midnight after only being allowed one full meal and two collations.  It's not an easy task to master for us who live in a world which does not emphasis any sort of self denial.  Heaven only knows that I've almost been tempted to break under the strain of our RC Lenten fast, but thankfully I always managed to hold off on the hot dogs till after midnight.

One of the main points of fasting is to disrupt our culinary lives to a great degree.  I am a firm believer that if you can't eat a vegan meal twice a week, barring medical issues, there really is something wrong with you and, God forgive me, you (which let me be clear I'm using in the most general sense) are lazy, selfish fool who can't be bothered to exert a little effort for the sake of bringing your body in line with your soul.



Well, that's your opinion.  My Church thinks and teaches otherwise.  The Vatican believes that by mitigating the fasting rules, more people will be able to follow them.  Of course you can do more if you wish, but that's something that's entirely on your plate.  The RCC doesn't force any type of spiritual progression onto her members.  We believe in free will and any type of spiritual development on the part of an individual must come from within them and not due to forced coercion or fear of damnation for not having done so.

Really?  It's still technically a mortal sin to not do some sort of asectic fast on Fridays.  Unconfessed mortal sin leaves one soul in danger of damnation.

Quote
Also I would seriously have to argue about the healthiness of keeping such severe and rigorous fasting as perscribed by Orthodoxy.  Modern science tells us that the human body needs the proteins that such foods as meats, fish, and dairy products give us on a regular basis.  Is it right then to deprive ourselves and especially our children of these vital nutrients because of an attempt to cling to an antiquated way of spiritual development that some people came up with in the first millennium?  Look at the so called "Vegans".  They are known to suffer from all kinds of deficiencies and malnutrition due to their supposedly health lifestyle.  Is this what we want for ourselves?

I understand the attachment of some to fasting and its supposed benefits.  I just can't help but feel that the type of fasting and self denial that is proscribed by the OC is not healthy for a normal human being to endure.  My Church obviously feels the same way since she long ago did away with such rigorous style of self discipline as the ancient fasting rules were.  


Yep, all these successful athletes (these ones, too...including a 4-time Mr. Universe!) suffer from all sorts of deficiencies and malnutrition.

There are far more omnivores who suffer from far more deficiencies and diet-related illnesses than vegans and vegetarians.  If you suffer from malnutrition from a vegan diet, you're simply doing it wrong.  And that's on the person, not on the diet itself.

Nice try, but, once again, an EPIC FAIL.



Why should I believe you.  Your obviouisly junked up in support of your religion so your going to try and give me all kinds of supposed "facts' in order to support what your claiming.  I'd rather use my God given reason to deduce that abstaining from most of the major food groups for half the year is unhealthy for a person to do.  Believe what you will, but this sounds much more realsitic to me then the evidence youve cited.
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« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2011, 05:44:34 PM »

You've never really fasted. You took a priest's helpful advice to be a total dismissal of fasting ("do your best" does not mean "don't try", by the way). And yet you talk down to us about how dangerous and legalistic it is. You have no idea what you're talking about.

I second Schultz's "epic fail."
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« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2011, 07:08:18 PM »

You've never really fasted. You took a priest's helpful advice to be a total dismissal of fasting ("do your best" does not mean "don't try", by the way). And yet you talk down to us about how dangerous and legalistic it is. You have no idea what you're talking about.

I second Schultz's "epic fail."

I guess St. John the Forerunner (the Baptist) was wrong to fast on locusts and wild honey. :rolls eyes:

And then Christ went into the desert and fasted for 40 days. I wonder what Christ ate?

Since we are the disciples of Christ, surely we could and should imitate Christ and fast as the Church prescribes.
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« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2011, 07:25:40 PM »

I'll be a devil's advocate.

I don't think he ever said fasting was wrong (though he got close with mentioning health concerns). However, he seemed to mostly be saying he doesn't think it's necessary to fast.

What would your responses be?
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« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2011, 08:01:05 PM »

I'll be a devil's advocate.

I don't think he ever said fasting was wrong (though he got close with mentioning health concerns). However, he seemed to mostly be saying he doesn't think it's necessary to fast.

What would your responses be?

Christ's words....

"When you fast" nor IF you fast.
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« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2011, 08:17:43 PM »

I'll be a devil's advocate.

I don't think he ever said fasting was wrong (though he got close with mentioning health concerns). However, he seemed to mostly be saying he doesn't think it's necessary to fast.

What would your responses be?
Christ says to fast. The Apostles say to fast. The Church says to fast—and has historically told us how to do so (namely Wed. & Fri., animal products, etc). It doesn't matter what Robb thinks about it.

There is a monumental difference between trying and failing, and not trying at all. That is THE difference. Christians aren't perfect—we are striving towards perfection. But it seems Robb would rather say, "Ho hum, I'm not perfect, so I'll just do whatever I want."
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« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2011, 08:28:44 PM »

I'll be a devil's advocate.

I don't think he ever said fasting was wrong (though he got close with mentioning health concerns). However, he seemed to mostly be saying he doesn't think it's necessary to fast.

What would your responses be?

Christ's words....

"When you fast" nor IF you fast.

I follow the perscrip ed fast of my Church and take the counsel given to me by my priest on this matter.  Although I may not sound like it, in the past I have suffered terribly from overscrupulousity which almost caused me to have a nervous breakdown.  I talked to a number of priest who all told me what I had to and didn't have to do and this was a big relief to me.  I'm sorry if my struggles with these issues is a cause for ridicule or scorn to some here.

I don't see how my following what my Church proscribes is wrong for me.  It is a pity and true offense to ecumenism and the reunion of Churches that you Orthodox always insist that your way of doing things is the ONLY way to travel down the path to glory and that the disciplines and culture of other Christian Churches is somehow wrong or offensive.  Most of your own people don't follow any type of fasting or abstinence, at least my RC's observe our small disciplines, even if they aren't very religious.  Even the EC's have taken a realistic approach to this matter and severely mitigated their fasting disciplines in order to make them more realistic and doable for their faithful (Many OC priest do this to with individual penitents, but they guess it with the mask of "economia").

I love and have great respect for you EO's and understand what you wish to option from these observances, but sadly the more and more I observe your attitudes towards life and human reason, I am somewhat convinced of the words of our late, great Blessed archbishop Aloysius Viktor Stepinac said in regards to the relationship between his Catholic Croatian people and the Orthodox Serbs of the time:
"All in all, Croats and Serbs are of two worlds, north pole and south pole, never will they be able to get together unless by a miracle of God. The Schism is the greatest curse in Europe, almost greater than Protestantism. Here there is no moral, no principles, no truth, no justice, no honesty."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Stepinac
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« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2011, 08:33:14 PM »

I'll be a devil's advocate.

I don't think he ever said fasting was wrong (though he got close with mentioning health concerns). However, he seemed to mostly be saying he doesn't think it's necessary to fast.

What would your responses be?

No I didn't say that all fasting is wrong, I just think that your Churches concept of fasting is wrong for today's world (Apparently so do the vast majority of your faithful who do not practice it at all). 

I think that some small forms of self denial (Like no meat on certain days) Is a good and Christian thing to master, but not in the extreme and antiquated form that the EO's cling to officially.  I just follow what my Church perscrip ed and have therefore, by doing so reached the level of perfection on this matter that is required for all pious and good Catholic faithful.  This is what I have been told and this is what I believe.
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« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2011, 08:35:56 PM »

I'll be a devil's advocate.

I don't think he ever said fasting was wrong (though he got close with mentioning health concerns). However, he seemed to mostly be saying he doesn't think it's necessary to fast.

What would your responses be?

Christ's words....

"When you fast" nor IF you fast.

I follow the perscrip ed fast of my Church and take the counsel given to me by my priest on this matter.  Although I may not sound like it, in the past I have suffered terribly from overscrupulousity which almost caused me to have a nervous breakdown.  I talked to a number of priest who all told me what I had to and didn't have to do and this was a big relief to me.  I'm sorry if my struggles with these issues is a cause for ridicule or scorn to some here.

I don't see how my following what my Church proscribes is wrong for me.  It is a pity and true offense to ecumenism and the reunion of Churches that you Orthodox always insist that your way of doing things is the ONLY way to travel down the path to glory and that the disciplines and culture of other Christian Churches is somehow wrong or offensive.  Most of your own people don't follow any type of fasting or abstinence, at least my RC's observe our small disciplines, even if they aren't very religious.  Even the EC's have taken  realistic approach to this matter and severely mitigated their fasting disciplines in order to make them more realistic and doable for their faithful (Many OC priest do this to with individual penitents, but they guess it with the mask of "economia").

I love and have great respect for you EO's and understand what you wish to option from these observances, but sadly the more and more I observe your attitudes towards life and human reason, I am somewhat convinced of the words of our late, great Blessed archbishop Aloysius Viktor Stepinac said in regards to the relationship between his Catholic Croatian people and the Orthodox Serbs of the time:
"All in all, Croats and Serbs are of two worlds, north pole and south pole, never will they be able to get together unless by a miracle of God. The Schism is the greatest curse in Europe, almost greater than Protestantism. Here there is no moral, no principles, no truth, no justice, no honesty."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Stepinac

We fast to the best of our ability and with our Priest's blessing.
This is true in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Even in the monastery, there are probably few monks who observe the strict monastic fast 100 percent of the time.
Occasionally monks get sick and have to be given a blessing to lessen the severity of the fast.

Even St. Seraphim of Sarov would give a blessing to his nuns to put a piece of bread (antidoron) under their pillows just in case they needed it. In his day, people did suffer from hypoglycemia.


We must try our best, and not look at our neighbor's plate of food or underneath their pillows or beds. Smiley
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 08:41:25 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2011, 08:38:21 PM »

Normal fasting does not put people's health at risk, Robb. That is silly. People with much poorer nutrition have fasted more strictly than many do today. The monks on Mt Athos don't seem to be dropping dead over it.

The protein thing is overblown. We don't need as much protein as people seem to think we do, unless we're pro athletes or something. And there is protein in beans, which are eaten abundantly during fasts.

With obesity an epidemic these days I don't think fasting normally is going to kill anyone. Silly talk.

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time buying into the idea of abstaining from most of the major food groups for around half the year is a healthy way to live.  I'm especially Leary of having children do such things due to the unhealthy way that it could stunt growth.  

Also, I'm not sure about RC's still required to do some type of "ascetic" fasting on Fridays.  I've heard such drivel pedaled around (Mostly by right wing RC's over the year's).  However as far as I know the U.S. bishops dispensed all Catholics from abstaining form meat on Fridays and only recommended required that they replace it with some type of penance (Which can be somethings simple as saying a prayer).

When I was OC, the thing that I struggled with the most was fasting (Which I never really even tried to practice).  I wasn't raised on self denial at all.  My parents pretty much said  "Hey, your hungry then eat,or tired then sleep".  Most OC priest I confessed to didn't give me a hard time about it.  They would just say "Do the best you can" (Which I took for code to mean "don't worry about it").  The only priest to give me trouble about it was a Serb one who I confessed to not fasting on Great Friday.  He screeched at me "you didn't fast on the holiest day of the year" to which I replied "no".  He then refused to commune me until the following week because of it.  It was then that I really first realized that Orthodoxy was kind of a crazy strict religion and I seriously started debating with myself about returning to the RCC.

That's one of the things that I like best about Catholicism.  It's a pretty easy religion.  The Church practically goes out of it's way to accommodate her faithful by not requiring too much of them.  That's the way I like things.  Nice and easy.  

Boy, you are not doing our side any favors.

Catholicism is not "easy" (defined as not requiring much of the faithful), nor should it be.

Yes, people are imperfect, and Mother Church is understanding and merciful with human weakness and failings. But casual laxity, "nice and easy," no. As CS Lewis said, "God is easy to please, but hard to satisfy."

As for our fasting discipline, it's the bare minimum required. We are encouraged to do more. To each his own, of course---my penances are different than others. But penance is an inextricable part of the Christian life.

« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 08:42:16 PM by lubeltri » Logged
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« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2011, 08:41:30 PM »

I'll be a devil's advocate.

I don't think he ever said fasting was wrong (though he got close with mentioning health concerns). However, he seemed to mostly be saying he doesn't think it's necessary to fast.

What would your responses be?

Christ's words....

"When you fast" nor IF you fast.

I follow the perscrip ed fast of my Church and take the counsel given to me by my priest on this matter. Although I may not sound like it, in the past I have suffered terribly from overscrupulousity which almost caused me to have a nervous breakdown.  I talked to a number of priest who all told me what I had to and didn't have to do and this was a big relief to me. I'm sorry if my struggles with these issues is a cause for ridicule or scorn to some here.

I don't see how my following what my Church proscribes is wrong for me. IT is a pity and true offense to ecumenism and the reunion of Churches that you Orthodox always insist that your way of doing things is the ONLY way to travel down the path to glory and that the disciplines and culture of other Christian Churches is somehow wrong or offensive. Most of your own people don't follow any type of fasting or abstinence, at least my RC's observe our small disciplines, even if they aren't very religious.  Even the EC's have taken  realistic approach to this matter and severely mitigated their fasting disciplines in order to make them more realistic and doable for their faithful (Many OC priest do this to with individual penitents, but they guess it with the mask of "economia").

I love and have great respect for you EO's and understand what you wish to option from these observances, but sadly the more and more I observe your attitudes towards life and human reason, I am somewhat convinced of the words of our late, great Blessed archbishop Aloysius Viktor Stepinac said in regards to the relationship between his Catholic Croatian people and the Orthodox Serbs of the time:
"All in all, Croats and Serbs are of two worlds, north pole and south pole, never will they be able to get together unless by a miracle of God. The Schism is the greatest curse in Europe, almost greater than Protestantism. Here there is no moral, no principles, no truth, no justice, no honesty."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Stepinac

We fast to the best of our ability and with our Priest's blessing.
This is true in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Even in the monastery, there are probably few monks who observe the strict monastic fast 100 percent of the time.
Occasionally monks get sick and have to be given a blessing to lessen the severity of the fast.

We must try our best, and not look at our neighbor's plate of food.

Thank you for these words.  I'm sorry if I sound raving in some of these post, but as I mentioned my mind is not in the right place on matters that sound too legalistic or narrow to me.  I was deeply hurt some years ago by my involvement in a cult like religious group and this has caused me no small amount of stress and mental anxiety.  I apologize for coming off as rude, sarcastic, or offensive to anyone.  I definitely have issues here which I won't deny, so it's probably best for me to avoid further discussing this topic.
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« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2011, 08:42:43 PM »

I'll be a devil's advocate.

I don't think he ever said fasting was wrong (though he got close with mentioning health concerns). However, he seemed to mostly be saying he doesn't think it's necessary to fast.

What would your responses be?

Christ's words....

"When you fast" nor IF you fast.

I follow the perscrip ed fast of my Church and take the counsel given to me by my priest on this matter. Although I may not sound like it, in the past I have suffered terribly from overscrupulousity which almost caused me to have a nervous breakdown.  I talked to a number of priest who all told me what I had to and didn't have to do and this was a big relief to me. I'm sorry if my struggles with these issues is a cause for ridicule or scorn to some here.

I don't see how my following what my Church proscribes is wrong for me. IT is a pity and true offense to ecumenism and the reunion of Churches that you Orthodox always insist that your way of doing things is the ONLY way to travel down the path to glory and that the disciplines and culture of other Christian Churches is somehow wrong or offensive. Most of your own people don't follow any type of fasting or abstinence, at least my RC's observe our small disciplines, even if they aren't very religious.  Even the EC's have taken  realistic approach to this matter and severely mitigated their fasting disciplines in order to make them more realistic and doable for their faithful (Many OC priest do this to with individual penitents, but they guess it with the mask of "economia").

I love and have great respect for you EO's and understand what you wish to option from these observances, but sadly the more and more I observe your attitudes towards life and human reason, I am somewhat convinced of the words of our late, great Blessed archbishop Aloysius Viktor Stepinac said in regards to the relationship between his Catholic Croatian people and the Orthodox Serbs of the time:
"All in all, Croats and Serbs are of two worlds, north pole and south pole, never will they be able to get together unless by a miracle of God. The Schism is the greatest curse in Europe, almost greater than Protestantism. Here there is no moral, no principles, no truth, no justice, no honesty."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Stepinac

We fast to the best of our ability and with our Priest's blessing.
This is true in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Even in the monastery, there are probably few monks who observe the strict monastic fast 100 percent of the time.
Occasionally monks get sick and have to be given a blessing to lessen the severity of the fast.

We must try our best, and not look at our neighbor's plate of food.

Thank you for these words.  I'm sorry if I sound raving in some of these post, but as I mentioned my mind is not in the right place on matters that sound too legalistic or narrow to me.  I was deeply hurt some years ago by my involvement in a cult like religious group and this has caused me no small amount of stress and mental anxiety.  I apologize for coming off as rude, sarcastic, or offensive to anyone.  I definitely have issues here which I won't deny, so it's probably best for me to avoid further discussing this topic.

God grant you peace and many years.
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« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2011, 08:44:58 PM »

I'll be a devil's advocate.

I don't think he ever said fasting was wrong (though he got close with mentioning health concerns). However, he seemed to mostly be saying he doesn't think it's necessary to fast.

What would your responses be?

Christ's words....

"When you fast" nor IF you fast.

I follow the perscrip ed fast of my Church and take the counsel given to me by my priest on this matter. Although I may not sound like it, in the past I have suffered terribly from overscrupulousity which almost caused me to have a nervous breakdown.  I talked to a number of priest who all told me what I had to and didn't have to do and this was a big relief to me. I'm sorry if my struggles with these issues is a cause for ridicule or scorn to some here.

I don't see how my following what my Church proscribes is wrong for me. IT is a pity and true offense to ecumenism and the reunion of Churches that you Orthodox always insist that your way of doing things is the ONLY way to travel down the path to glory and that the disciplines and culture of other Christian Churches is somehow wrong or offensive. Most of your own people don't follow any type of fasting or abstinence, at least my RC's observe our small disciplines, even if they aren't very religious.  Even the EC's have taken  realistic approach to this matter and severely mitigated their fasting disciplines in order to make them more realistic and doable for their faithful (Many OC priest do this to with individual penitents, but they guess it with the mask of "economia").

I love and have great respect for you EO's and understand what you wish to option from these observances, but sadly the more and more I observe your attitudes towards life and human reason, I am somewhat convinced of the words of our late, great Blessed archbishop Aloysius Viktor Stepinac said in regards to the relationship between his Catholic Croatian people and the Orthodox Serbs of the time:
"All in all, Croats and Serbs are of two worlds, north pole and south pole, never will they be able to get together unless by a miracle of God. The Schism is the greatest curse in Europe, almost greater than Protestantism. Here there is no moral, no principles, no truth, no justice, no honesty."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Stepinac

We fast to the best of our ability and with our Priest's blessing.
This is true in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Even in the monastery, there are probably few monks who observe the strict monastic fast 100 percent of the time.
Occasionally monks get sick and have to be given a blessing to lessen the severity of the fast.

We must try our best, and not look at our neighbor's plate of food.

Thank you for these words.  I'm sorry if I sound raving in some of these post, but as I mentioned my mind is not in the right place on matters that sound too legalistic or narrow to me.  I was deeply hurt some years ago by my involvement in a cult like religious group and this has caused me no small amount of stress and mental anxiety.  I apologize for coming off as rude, sarcastic, or offensive to anyone.  I definitely have issues here which I won't deny, so it's probably best for me to avoid further discussing this topic.

Thanks as well for these words. Well, it is up to your conscience to decide what sorts of penance you need. No legalism there. And no judging. As Christ said, let us do our penances in secret.
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« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2011, 08:46:58 PM »

No I didn't say that all fasting is wrong, I just think that your Churches concept of fasting is wrong for today's world (Apparently so do the vast majority of your faithful who do not practice it at all). 

Sorry, a majority of people breaking the rules isn't grounds to do away with them. We don't make rules for the sake of making rules, but it seems you think this way. The rules are intended for fostering a specific result—a result that may well not occur any other way.

And if you have struggled with scrupulosity, fine. But you are universalizing your particular circumstance. I can show you a hundred saints who were made holy in part through extreme fasting, which the Church does not ask us to do. Not eating meat and dairy twice a week is not extreme.

One modern example is St John of San Francisco, who only ate one small meal every day. And he lived in the modern world, so that demolishes your theory.
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« Reply #43 on: June 05, 2011, 08:48:26 PM »

Normal fasting does not put people's health at risk, Robb. That is silly. People with much poorer nutrition have fasted more strictly than many do today. The monks on Mt Athos don't seem to be dropping dead over it.

The protein thing is overblown. We don't need as much protein as people seem to think we do, unless we're pro athletes or something. And there is protein in beans, which are eaten abundantly during fasts.

With obesity an epidemic these days I don't think fasting normally is going to kill anyone. Silly talk.

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time buying into the idea of abstaining from most of the major food groups for around half the year is a healthy way to live. I'm especially Leary of having children do such things due to the unhealthy way that it could stunt growth.  

Also, I'm not sure about RC's still required to do some type of "ascetic" fasting on Fridays. I've heard such drivel pedaled around (Mostly by right wing RC's over the year's). However as far as I know the U.S. bishops dispensed all Catholics from abstaining form meat on Fridays and only recommended required that they replace it with some type of penance (Which can be somethings simple as saying a prayer).

When I was OC, the thing that I struggled with the most was fasting (Which I never really even tried to practice).  I wasn't raised on self denial at all. My parents pretty much said  "Hey, your hungry then eat,or tired then sleep". Most OC priest I confessed to didn't give me a hard time about it. They would just say "Do the best you can" (Which I took for code to mean "don't worry about it"). The only priest to give me trouble about it was a Serb one who I confessed to not fasting on Great Friday. He screeched at me "you didn't fast on the holiest day of the year" to which I replied "no". He then refused to commune me until the following week because of it.  It was then that I really first realized that Orthodoxy was kind of a crazy strict religion and I seriously started debating with myself about returning to the RCC.

That's one of the things that I like best about Catholicism.  It's a pretty easy religion.  The Church practically goes out of it's way to accommodate her faithful by not requiring too much of them.  That's the way I like things.  Nice and easy.  

Boy, you are not doing our side any favors.

Catholicism is not "easy" (defined as not requiring much of the faithful), nor should it be.



I'm not out to win favors for any side.  I have never heard that a person was required to perform some type of penance if they did not eat meat on Fridays.  I've never heard a real priest (Outside of EWTN) Preach on it, which makes me kind of suspect about it's legitimacy.  I know that some right wing RC's are always trying to find new rules or regulations to try and force on Catholics so that they can slowly but surely force their pseudo Tridentine form of religion down our throats again.  I will ask my parish priest if your statement is true or not, but I highly doubt it.

Also, RC ism is pretty easy, like it or not when compared to other faiths.  We really have dietary laws such as the EO's, Orthodox Jews, or Muslims do.  We do not have that many rules which we must scrupulously follow (Such as making a ha-jib).  We are a far, far more populous everyman type of religion then some would have us think.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 08:50:50 PM by Robb » Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
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« Reply #44 on: June 05, 2011, 08:55:38 PM »

No I didn't say that all fasting is wrong, I just think that your Churches concept of fasting is wrong for today's world (Apparently so do the vast majority of your faithful who do not practice it at all). 

Sorry, a majority of people breaking the rules isn't grounds to do away with them. We don't make rules for the sake of making rules, but it seems you think this way. The rules are intended for fostering a specific result—a result that may well not occur any other way.

And if you have struggled with scrupulosity, fine. But you are universalizing your particular circumstance. I can show you a hundred saints who were made holy in part through extreme fasting, which the Church does not ask us to do. Not eating meat and dairy twice a week is not extreme.

One modern example is St John of San Francisco, who only ate one small meal every day. And he lived in the modern world, so that demolishes your theory.

Well my Church must have thought it was grounds for that.  They did away with the strict, Orthodox style of fasting centuries ago and I highly doubt that they will ever re institute it.  As I also mentioned even the EC's have reduced their fasting requirements, and they are the same thing as you EO's except they follow the Pope.  If you wish to keep your own fast, fine, but don't judge we RC's for keeping ours as our Church proscribes.  If they wanted us to do more then they would tell us to do so.

Also, I have no idea about St John other then he was a noted ascetic and I am definitely not an ascetic nor do I have any desire to be one.  We all walk with God in our own way and do what we can based on who we are, what we are, and where we are.  That's fine with me.
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Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
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« Reply #45 on: June 05, 2011, 09:07:54 PM »

Normal fasting does not put people's health at risk, Robb. That is silly. People with much poorer nutrition have fasted more strictly than many do today. The monks on Mt Athos don't seem to be dropping dead over it.

The protein thing is overblown. We don't need as much protein as people seem to think we do, unless we're pro athletes or something. And there is protein in beans, which are eaten abundantly during fasts.

With obesity an epidemic these days I don't think fasting normally is going to kill anyone. Silly talk.

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time buying into the idea of abstaining from most of the major food groups for around half the year is a healthy way to live. I'm especially Leary of having children do such things due to the unhealthy way that it could stunt growth.  

Also, I'm not sure about RC's still required to do some type of "ascetic" fasting on Fridays. I've heard such drivel pedaled around (Mostly by right wing RC's over the year's). However as far as I know the U.S. bishops dispensed all Catholics from abstaining form meat on Fridays and only recommended required that they replace it with some type of penance (Which can be somethings simple as saying a prayer).

When I was OC, the thing that I struggled with the most was fasting (Which I never really even tried to practice).  I wasn't raised on self denial at all. My parents pretty much said  "Hey, your hungry then eat,or tired then sleep". Most OC priest I confessed to didn't give me a hard time about it. They would just say "Do the best you can" (Which I took for code to mean "don't worry about it"). The only priest to give me trouble about it was a Serb one who I confessed to not fasting on Great Friday. He screeched at me "you didn't fast on the holiest day of the year" to which I replied "no". He then refused to commune me until the following week because of it.  It was then that I really first realized that Orthodoxy was kind of a crazy strict religion and I seriously started debating with myself about returning to the RCC.

That's one of the things that I like best about Catholicism.  It's a pretty easy religion.  The Church practically goes out of it's way to accommodate her faithful by not requiring too much of them.  That's the way I like things.  Nice and easy.  

Boy, you are not doing our side any favors.

Catholicism is not "easy" (defined as not requiring much of the faithful), nor should it be.



I'm not out to win favors for any side.  I have never heard that a person was required to perform some type of penance if they did not eat meat on Fridays.  I've never heard a real priest (Outside of EWTN) Preach on it, which makes me kind of suspect about it's legitimacy.  I know that some right wing RC's are always trying to find new rules or regulations to try and force on Catholics so that they can slowly but surely force their pseudo Tridentine form of religion down our throats again.  I will ask my parish priest if your statement is true or not, but I highly doubt it.

Also, RC ism is pretty easy, like it or not when compared to other faiths.  We really have dietary laws such as the EO's, Orthodox Jews, or Muslims do.  We do not have that many rules which we must scrupulously follow (Such as making a ha-jib).  We are a far, far more populous everyman type of religion then some would have us think.

Not as easy as you think. Birth control? Divorce? Catholic moral teaching is as hard as it gets.

As for "right-wing Catholics", this is not a political issue. Not sure why you would think so.
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« Reply #46 on: June 05, 2011, 09:08:41 PM »

Penitential Days

Ash Wednesday—This day marks the beginning of the Lenten season. The imposition of ashes is an ancient penitential practice symbolizing our dependence upon God's mercy and forgiveness. Ash Wednesday is a day of fast and abstinence in the Church.

Good Friday—Christ suffered and died for our salvation on Friday. On the Friday that we call "Good," the Church gathers to commemorate Jesus' Passion and death. Good Friday is a day of fast and abstinence. The Good Friday fast is the Paschal fast—a fast of anticipation and longing for the Passover of the Lord, which should continue, when possible, through Holy Saturday.

Fridays During Lent—In the United States, the tradition of abstaining from meat on each Friday during Lent is maintained.

Fridays Throughout the Year—In memory of Christ's suffering and death, the Church prescribes making each Friday throughout the year a penitential day. All of us are urged to prepare appropriately for that weekly Easter that comes with each Sunday.


http://www.usccb.org/doctrine/penitential.shtml
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« Reply #47 on: June 05, 2011, 09:10:02 PM »

Really?  It's still technically a mortal sin to not do some sort of asectic fast on Fridays.  Unconfessed mortal sin leaves one soul in danger of damnation.
Source?

I didn't think it was a mortal sin. Of course, there are three requirements for a sin to be mortal so it is not fair to label anything a "mortal sin" since it varies from person to person. The most it could be is grave matter. Grave matter can still be a venial sin if full knowledge and full consent of the will are not present.
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« Reply #48 on: June 05, 2011, 09:16:48 PM »

Penitential Days

Ash Wednesday—This day marks the beginning of the Lenten season. The imposition of ashes is an ancient penitential practice symbolizing our dependence upon God's mercy and forgiveness. Ash Wednesday is a day of fast and abstinence in the Church.

Good Friday—Christ suffered and died for our salvation on Friday. On the Friday that we call "Good," the Church gathers to commemorate Jesus' Passion and death. Good Friday is a day of fast and abstinence. The Good Friday fast is the Paschal fast—a fast of anticipation and longing for the Passover of the Lord, which should continue, when possible, through Holy Saturday.

Fridays During Lent—In the United States, the tradition of abstaining from meat on each Friday during Lent is maintained.

Fridays Throughout the Year—In memory of Christ's suffering and death, the Church prescribes making each Friday throughout the year a penitential day. All of us are urged to prepare appropriately for that weekly Easter that comes with each Sunday.


http://www.usccb.org/doctrine/penitential.shtml

verb (used without object)
9. to exert a driving or impelling force; give an impulse to haste or action: Hunger urges.
10. to make entreaties or earnest recommendations.
11. to press arguments or allegations, as against a person, action, or cause: The senator urged against the confirmation of the appointment.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/urge
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« Reply #49 on: June 05, 2011, 09:19:33 PM »

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time buying into the idea of abstaining from most of the major food groups for around half the year is a healthy way to live.  I'm especially Leary of having children do such things due to the unhealthy way that it could stunt growth.  

Also, I'm not sure about RC's still required to do some type of "ascetic" fasting on Fridays.  I've heard such drivel pedaled around (Mostly by right wing RC's over the year's).  However as far as I know the U.S. bishops dispensed all Catholics from abstaining form meat on Fridays and only recommended that they replace it with some type of penance (Which can be somethings simple as saying a prayer).

When I was OC, the thing that I struggled with the most was fasting (Which I never really even tried to practice).  I wasn't raised on self denial at all.  My parents pretty much said  "Hey, your hungry then eat,or tired then sleep".  Most OC priest I confessed to didn't give me a hard time about it.  They would just say "Do the best you can" (Which I took for code to mean "don't worry about it").  The only priest to give me trouble about it was a Serb one who I confessed to not fasting on Great Friday.  He screeched at me "you didn't fast on the holiest day of the year" to which I replied "no".  He then refused to commune me until the following week because of it.  It was then that I really first realized that Orthodoxy was kind of a crazy strict religion and I seriously started debating with myself about returning to the RCC.

That's one of the things that I like best about Catholicism.  It's a pretty easy religion.  The Church practically goes out of it's way to accommodate her faithful by not requiring too much of them.  That's the way I like things.  Nice and easy.  

Bangs Head on Wall!!
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« Reply #50 on: June 05, 2011, 09:23:56 PM »

Penitential Days

Ash Wednesday—This day marks the beginning of the Lenten season. The imposition of ashes is an ancient penitential practice symbolizing our dependence upon God's mercy and forgiveness. Ash Wednesday is a day of fast and abstinence in the Church.

Good Friday—Christ suffered and died for our salvation on Friday. On the Friday that we call "Good," the Church gathers to commemorate Jesus' Passion and death. Good Friday is a day of fast and abstinence. The Good Friday fast is the Paschal fast—a fast of anticipation and longing for the Passover of the Lord, which should continue, when possible, through Holy Saturday.

Fridays During Lent—In the United States, the tradition of abstaining from meat on each Friday during Lent is maintained.

Fridays Throughout the Year—In memory of Christ's suffering and death, the Church prescribes making each Friday throughout the year a penitential day. All of us are urged to prepare appropriately for that weekly Easter that comes with each Sunday.


http://www.usccb.org/doctrine/penitential.shtml

pre·scribe 

–verb (used with object)
1.
to lay down, in writing or otherwise, as a rule or a course of action to be followed; appoint, ordain, or enjoin.

–verb (used without object)
3.
to lay down rules; direct; dictate.
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« Reply #51 on: June 05, 2011, 09:25:07 PM »

Really?  It's still technically a mortal sin to not do some sort of ascetic fast on Fridays.  Unconfessed mortal sin leaves one soul in danger of damnation.
Source?

I didn't think it was a mortal sin. Of course, there are three requirements for a sin to be mortal so it is not fair to label anything a "mortal sin" since it varies from person to person. The most it could be is grave matter. Grave matter can still be a venial sin if full knowledge and full consent of the will are not present.

It depends, deliberately stealing a quarter can involve full knowledge and consent, but isn't grave matter so it's not mortal. Just because you know you are committing a sin doesn't make it serious.
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« Reply #52 on: June 05, 2011, 09:25:34 PM »

No I didn't say that all fasting is wrong, I just think that your Churches concept of fasting is wrong for today's world (Apparently so do the vast majority of your faithful who do not practice it at all). 

Sorry, a majority of people breaking the rules isn't grounds to do away with them. We don't make rules for the sake of making rules, but it seems you think this way. The rules are intended for fostering a specific result—a result that may well not occur any other way.

And if you have struggled with scrupulosity, fine. But you are universalizing your particular circumstance. I can show you a hundred saints who were made holy in part through extreme fasting, which the Church does not ask us to do. Not eating meat and dairy twice a week is not extreme.

One modern example is St John of San Francisco, who only ate one small meal every day. And he lived in the modern world, so that demolishes your theory.

Well my Church must have thought it was grounds for that.  They did away with the strict, Orthodox style of fasting centuries ago and I highly doubt that they will ever re institute it.  As I also mentioned even the EC's have reduced their fasting requirements, and they are the same thing as you EO's except they follow the Pope.  If you wish to keep your own fast, fine, but don't judge we RC's for keeping ours as our Church proscribes.  If they wanted us to do more then they would tell us to do so.

Also, I have no idea about St John other then he was a noted ascetic and I am definitely not an ascetic nor do I have any desire to be one.  We all walk with God in our own way and do what we can based on who we are, what we are, and where we are.  That's fine with me.

I'm not judging Roman Catholics, because all the ones I know in real life (who are not all "right wing" or "trad") recognize the importance and necessity of asceticism and fasting. I'm simply saying that your opinion that fasting is impossibly difficult and outdated is wrong. (I also recognize that your view is not shared by many of your fellow Roman Catholics.)

You will have to do a lot to convince anyone that Christianity is not an ascetic religion. The Bible and the Fathers are full of examples of self-denial. If you don't proclaim the faith of the Fathers, that's your business, but I think a great number of Roman Catholics would say you're out of the mainstream.

And again, if this is a personal bit of economia for you, then fine. It's a pastoral issue. But don't then proclaim that your practices are the norm.
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« Reply #53 on: June 05, 2011, 09:26:04 PM »

Robb, If you are not making some sort of penitential observance of every Friday, I think you're falling short. It's not that hard! You don't have to whip yourself and wear a hair-shirt. To each his own. Since you seem to struggle with serious scrupulosity, even a sincere prayer to help you with your scrupulosity would do.
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« Reply #54 on: June 05, 2011, 09:27:51 PM »

Penitential Days

Ash Wednesday—This day marks the beginning of the Lenten season. The imposition of ashes is an ancient penitential practice symbolizing our dependence upon God's mercy and forgiveness. Ash Wednesday is a day of fast and abstinence in the Church.

Good Friday—Christ suffered and died for our salvation on Friday. On the Friday that we call "Good," the Church gathers to commemorate Jesus' Passion and death. Good Friday is a day of fast and abstinence. The Good Friday fast is the Paschal fast—a fast of anticipation and longing for the Passover of the Lord, which should continue, when possible, through Holy Saturday.

Fridays During Lent—In the United States, the tradition of abstaining from meat on each Friday during Lent is maintained.

Fridays Throughout the Year—In memory of Christ's suffering and death, the Church prescribes making each Friday throughout the year a penitential day. All of us are urged to prepare appropriately for that weekly Easter that comes with each Sunday.


http://www.usccb.org/doctrine/penitential.shtml

pre·scribe 

–verb (used with object)
1.
to lay down, in writing or otherwise, as a rule or a course of action to be followed; appoint, ordain, or enjoin.

–verb (used without object)
3.
to lay down rules; direct; dictate.


Again this rule might be on the books, but it isn't enforced by our bishops.  If they would want us doing something penitential then they would telll us what to do.  The Church speaks for God and God would not leave us hangign like this.  Traditional Catholics are always trying to make it seem as if things are still as strict as the "old days", but its not (My pastor told me so).
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« Reply #55 on: June 05, 2011, 09:29:08 PM »

Robb, If you are not making some sort of penitential observance of every Friday, I think you're falling short. It's not that hard!

Well me and msot other Catholics are all in the same boat.  Your a "trad" so how can I trust anything you say as accurate.  We all know how your kind operate and what you want us all to do (Hint, clingy, lingy, incenssing and lacy).  I'd rather follow my priest counsel then resort to getting spiriutal advice on the internet from some guy who I have no knowledge of and, for all I know could be some kind of pervert or fraud. 
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Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
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« Reply #56 on: June 05, 2011, 09:30:37 PM »

Really?  It's still technically a mortal sin to not do some sort of ascetic fast on Fridays.  Unconfessed mortal sin leaves one soul in danger of damnation.
Source?

I didn't think it was a mortal sin. Of course, there are three requirements for a sin to be mortal so it is not fair to label anything a "mortal sin" since it varies from person to person. The most it could be is grave matter. Grave matter can still be a venial sin if full knowledge and full consent of the will are not present.

It depends, deliberately stealing a quarter can involve full knowledge and consent, but isn't grave matter so it's not mortal. Just because you know you are committing a sin doesn't make it serious.

Willful rebellion against God isn't serious? Wow.
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« Reply #57 on: June 05, 2011, 09:31:32 PM »

No I didn't say that all fasting is wrong, I just think that your Churches concept of fasting is wrong for today's world (Apparently so do the vast majority of your faithful who do not practice it at all). 

Sorry, a majority of people breaking the rules isn't grounds to do away with them. We don't make rules for the sake of making rules, but it seems you think this way. The rules are intended for fostering a specific result—a result that may well not occur any other way.

And if you have struggled with scrupulosity, fine. But you are universalizing your particular circumstance. I can show you a hundred saints who were made holy in part through extreme fasting, which the Church does not ask us to do. Not eating meat and dairy twice a week is not extreme.

One modern example is St John of San Francisco, who only ate one small meal every day. And he lived in the modern world, so that demolishes your theory.

Well my Church must have thought it was grounds for that.  They did away with the strict, Orthodox style of fasting centuries ago and I highly doubt that they will ever re institute it.  As I also mentioned even the EC's have reduced their fasting requirements, and they are the same thing as you EO's except they follow the Pope.  If you wish to keep your own fast, fine, but don't judge we RC's for keeping ours as our Church proscribes.  If they wanted us to do more then they would tell us to do so.

Also, I have no idea about St John other then he was a noted ascetic and I am definitely not an ascetic nor do I have any desire to be one.  We all walk with God in our own way and do what we can based on who we are, what we are, and where we are.  That's fine with me.
You really think the RCC is better for this? I'm not badgering, just wondering. Where do you think "Carnivale" came from in the West? Two Latin words "carnis", meat, and "valere", to bid well. Literally, saying goodbye to meat. Similarly, they said goodbye to dairy and eggs, too. Why do you think pancakes on Carnivale came to be? Wink This is a tradition that the West shared with us, that came from the Apostles themselves. How can we fiddle with that, depriving people and opportunity to really grow?

While I find the fasts challenging, without any challenge or struggle we can't grow. The Fasts were instituted to help us focus not on wanting a hamburger or "x" food, but on wanting God. Smiley It's hard, no doubt about that, especially in our culture, but with God's grace and some effort on our part, we can do it. The Church sets the bar high because she knows that most of us will never be able to attain to it, but if we are faithful in sincerely trying, then there is much reward and grace in that in so many ways.

I would love to see the RCC return to the Orthodox abstinence.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #58 on: June 05, 2011, 09:32:21 PM »


I'm not out to win favors for any side.  I have never heard that a person was required to perform some type of penance if they did not eat meat on Fridays.  I've never heard a real priest (Outside of EWTN) Preach on it, which makes me kind of suspect about it's legitimacy.  I know that some right wing RC's are always trying to find new rules or regulations to try and force on Catholics so that they can slowly but surely force their pseudo Tridentine form of religion down our throats again.  I will ask my parish priest if your statement is true or not, but I highly doubt it.

You are off the chart here Robb.  The very reason that the fasting practices were changed after the Second Vatican Council was the idea that the faithful needed to take more control over their faith lives.  It was also thought that when the minimum became the rule, then all people did was the minimum.  So they did not remove penitential acts on Friday but handed the responsibility for how much and what to the faithful.  But certainly it was the intention of the original reformers that we were to do more penitential acts on Friday...not fewer or none at all.  We could keep right on eating fish on Friday or we could keep the penitential Wednesdays or Fridays but we were to add to these meatless days with more prayer, alms giving, tending the sick and the captives, etc.  

Apparently that was bust for some folks...Although I do know people who do indeed keep Wednesdays and Fridays as penitential days and who also do other acts of mercy and prayer on top of their penances on those days.

So you are really not at all well informed on this one.
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« Reply #59 on: June 05, 2011, 09:32:36 PM »

Really?  It's still technically a mortal sin to not do some sort of ascetic fast on Fridays.  Unconfessed mortal sin leaves one soul in danger of damnation.
Source?

I didn't think it was a mortal sin. Of course, there are three requirements for a sin to be mortal so it is not fair to label anything a "mortal sin" since it varies from person to person. The most it could be is grave matter. Grave matter can still be a venial sin if full knowledge and full consent of the will are not present.

It depends, deliberately stealing a quarter can involve full knowledge and consent, but isn't grave matter so it's not mortal. Just because you know you are committing a sin doesn't make it serious.

Willful rebellion against God isn't serious? Wow.

I guess all sin involves some type of rebellion, but are you seriously saying that stealing a quarter would be a mortal sin?

That's crazy.  So anything that one willfully does, no matter how small is a sin?  That aint my Church and thank God it isn't.
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« Reply #60 on: June 05, 2011, 09:34:59 PM »

Again this rule might be on the books, but it isn't enforced by our bishops.  If they would want us doing something penitential then they would telll us what to do.  

Now you're the one being legalistic here. The precise reason the US bishops dispensed with abstinence from meat as the sole required Friday observance was to avoid legalism. They still recommend avoiding meat, but they enjoin everyone to do what sort of observance is best for them. Thus they did this for types like you who were getting all legalistic and scrupulous about avoiding meat on Friday (you know, the "gravy" folks; both types: the ones who say "Okay, well I can get away with gravy 'cause it's not REALLY meat, right?" as well as the ones who cry "Oh my God! I ate gravy! I'm going to hell if I don't get to the confessional right away!").

It is emphatically AGAINST their intentions to allow you to just treat Friday like any other day.

As for me, I avoid meat on Fridays. Why? It's the traditional thing to do, it DOES hurt (I like meat), and it is simple so I don't forget to do it. But I don't struggle with scrupulosity.
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« Reply #61 on: June 05, 2011, 09:35:13 PM »


I'm not out to win favors for any side.  I have never heard that a person was required to perform some type of penance if they did not eat meat on Fridays.  I've never heard a real priest (Outside of EWTN) Preach on it, which makes me kind of suspect about it's legitimacy.  I know that some right wing RC's are always trying to find new rules or regulations to try and force on Catholics so that they can slowly but surely force their pseudo Tridentine form of religion down our throats again.  I will ask my parish priest if your statement is true or not, but I highly doubt it.

You are off the chart here Robb.  The very reason that the fasting practices were changed after the Second Vatican Council was the idea that the faithful needed to take more control over their faith lives.  It was also thought that when the minimum became the rule, then all people did was the minimum.  So they did not remove penitential acts on Friday but handed the responsibility for how much and what to the faithful.  But certainly it was the intention of the original reformers that we were to do more penitential acts on Friday...not fewer or none at all.  We could keep right on eating fish on Friday or we could keep the penitential Wednesdays or Fridays but we were to add to these meatless days with more prayer, alms giving, tending the sick and the captives, etc.  

Apparently that was bust for some folks...Although I do know people who do indeed keep Wednesdays and Fridays as penitential days and who also do other acts of mercy and prayer on top of their penances on those days.

So you are really not at all well informed on this one.
Thats the craziest thing I ever heard.  If you want people to do more stuff then tell them to.  Thats the way I operate and the way most people I know do.  Why on Earth would you let most people, who don't do or care to do much in matters of religion anyway, leave it up to themselves to decide on this?  If the church didn't mean to do things this way then they had a funny way of allowing it to happen like that.
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« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2011, 09:35:58 PM »

Really?  It's still technically a mortal sin to not do some sort of ascetic fast on Fridays.  Unconfessed mortal sin leaves one soul in danger of damnation.
Source?

I didn't think it was a mortal sin. Of course, there are three requirements for a sin to be mortal so it is not fair to label anything a "mortal sin" since it varies from person to person. The most it could be is grave matter. Grave matter can still be a venial sin if full knowledge and full consent of the will are not present.

It depends, deliberately stealing a quarter can involve full knowledge and consent, but isn't grave matter so it's not mortal. Just because you know you are committing a sin doesn't make it serious.

Willful rebellion against God isn't serious? Wow.

I guess all sin involves some type of rebellion, but are you seriously saying that stealing a quarter would be a mortal sin?

That's crazy.  So anything that one willfully does, no matter how small is a sin?  That aint my Church and thank God it isn't.

If you know it's wrong, and do it anyway, it is automatically a serious sin. My Church doesn't make such clear demarcations but you clearly are condemned by your conscience and ignore it. Not something to play around with.
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« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2011, 09:37:02 PM »

Robb, If you are not making some sort of penitential observance of every Friday, I think you're falling short. It's not that hard!

Well me and msot other Catholics are all in the same boat.  Your a "trad" so how can I trust anything you say as accurate.  We all know how your kind operate and what you want us all to do (Hint, clingy, lingy, incenssing and lacy).  I'd rather follow my priest counsel then resort to getting spiriutal advice on the internet from some guy who I have no knowledge of and, for all I know could be some kind of pervert or fraud. 

Well, there we are. No further need to discuss this with you. After all, you already "know" my "kind."  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2011, 09:38:24 PM »



If you know it's wrong, and do it anyway, it is automatically a serious sin. My Church doesn't make such clear demarcations but you clearly are condemned by your conscience and ignore it. Not something to play around with.

Agreed. Sin is not to be taken lightly.
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« Reply #65 on: June 05, 2011, 09:38:49 PM »


I'm not out to win favors for any side.  I have never heard that a person was required to perform some type of penance if they did not eat meat on Fridays.  I've never heard a real priest (Outside of EWTN) Preach on it, which makes me kind of suspect about it's legitimacy.  I know that some right wing RC's are always trying to find new rules or regulations to try and force on Catholics so that they can slowly but surely force their pseudo Tridentine form of religion down our throats again.  I will ask my parish priest if your statement is true or not, but I highly doubt it.

You are off the chart here Robb.  The very reason that the fasting practices were changed after the Second Vatican Council was the idea that the faithful needed to take more control over their faith lives.  It was also thought that when the minimum became the rule, then all people did was the minimum.  So they did not remove penitential acts on Friday but handed the responsibility for how much and what to the faithful.  But certainly it was the intention of the original reformers that we were to do more penitential acts on Friday...not fewer or none at all.  We could keep right on eating fish on Friday or we could keep the penitential Wednesdays or Fridays but we were to add to these meatless days with more prayer, alms giving, tending the sick and the captives, etc.  

Apparently that was bust for some folks...Although I do know people who do indeed keep Wednesdays and Fridays as penitential days and who also do other acts of mercy and prayer on top of their penances on those days.

So you are really not at all well informed on this one.
Thats the craziest thing I ever heard.  If you want people to do more stuff then tell them to.  Thats the way I operate and the way most people I know do.  Why on Earth would you let most people, who don't do or care to do much in matters of religion anyway, leave it up to themselves to decide on this?  If the church didn't mean to do things this way then they had a funny way of allowing it to happen like that.

Not all people think it is so crazy and some pastors actually do teach those who don't know what to do how to decide what to do.  It's called spiritual direction... Smiley
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« Reply #66 on: June 05, 2011, 09:40:02 PM »

Really?  It's still technically a mortal sin to not do some sort of ascetic fast on Fridays.  Unconfessed mortal sin leaves one soul in danger of damnation.
Source?

I didn't think it was a mortal sin. Of course, there are three requirements for a sin to be mortal so it is not fair to label anything a "mortal sin" since it varies from person to person. The most it could be is grave matter. Grave matter can still be a venial sin if full knowledge and full consent of the will are not present.

It depends, deliberately stealing a quarter can involve full knowledge and consent, but isn't grave matter so it's not mortal. Just because you know you are committing a sin doesn't make it serious.

Willful rebellion against God isn't serious? Wow.

I guess all sin involves some type of rebellion, but are you seriously saying that stealing a quarter would be a mortal sin?

That's crazy.  So anything that one willfully does, no matter how small is a sin?  That aint my Church and thank God it isn't.

If you know it's wrong, and do it anyway, it is automatically a serious sin. My Church doesn't make such clear demarcations but you clearly are condemned by your conscience and ignore it. Not something to play around with.

I think we have confused two threads:

This thread is for discussion of the Pope's suggested reforms of the Mass.

There is another thread that is dedicated to the discussion of scrupulosity:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,36832.msg581748.html#msg581748
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« Reply #67 on: June 05, 2011, 09:41:22 PM »



If you know it's wrong, and do it anyway, it is automatically a serious sin. My Church doesn't make such clear demarcations but you clearly are condemned by your conscience and ignore it. Not something to play around with.

Agreed. Sin is not to be taken lightly.

Most people outside of the Church don't realize that it was not the eating of meat that was the sin, but it was the disobedience to the legitimate authority of the Church that was the "mortal" sin when people refused to fast on Fridays.  You might argue for gluttony and not be entirely wrong but the real serious infraction was one of disobedience...and that is quite serious a matter.
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« Reply #68 on: June 05, 2011, 09:41:36 PM »

No I didn't say that all fasting is wrong, I just think that your Churches concept of fasting is wrong for today's world (Apparently so do the vast majority of your faithful who do not practice it at all). 

Sorry, a majority of people breaking the rules isn't grounds to do away with them. We don't make rules for the sake of making rules, but it seems you think this way. The rules are intended for fostering a specific result—a result that may well not occur any other way.

And if you have struggled with scrupulosity, fine. But you are universalizing your particular circumstance. I can show you a hundred saints who were made holy in part through extreme fasting, which the Church does not ask us to do. Not eating meat and dairy twice a week is not extreme.

One modern example is St John of San Francisco, who only ate one small meal every day. And he lived in the modern world, so that demolishes your theory.

Well my Church must have thought it was grounds for that.  They did away with the strict, Orthodox style of fasting centuries ago and I highly doubt that they will ever re institute it.  As I also mentioned even the EC's have reduced their fasting requirements, and they are the same thing as you EO's except they follow the Pope.  If you wish to keep your own fast, fine, but don't judge we RC's for keeping ours as our Church proscribes.  If they wanted us to do more then they would tell us to do so.

Also, I have no idea about St John other then he was a noted ascetic and I am definitely not an ascetic nor do I have any desire to be one.  We all walk with God in our own way and do what we can based on who we are, what we are, and where we are.  That's fine with me.
You really think the RCC is better for this? I'm not badgering, just wondering. Where do you think "Carnivale" came from in the West? Two Latin words "carnis", meat, and "valere", to bid well. Literally, saying goodbye to meat. Similarly, they said goodbye to dairy and eggs, too. Why do you think pancakes on Carnivale came to be? Wink This is a tradition that the West shared with us, that came from the Apostles themselves. How can we fiddle with that, depriving people and opportunity to really grow?

While I find the fasts challenging, without any challenge or struggle we can't grow. The Fasts were instituted to help us focus not on wanting a hamburger or "x" food, but on wanting God. Smiley It's hard, no doubt about that, especially in our culture, but with God's grace and some effort on our part, we can do it. The Church sets the bar high because she knows that most of us will never be able to attain to it, but if we are faithful in sincerely trying, then there is much reward and grace in that in so many ways.

I would love to see the RCC return to the Orthodox abstinence.

In Christ,
Andrew

Agreed. And the common, universal nature of the fasts are a great antidote to holier-than-thou's. Everyone is doing it, thus nobody is better than anyone else.

It is a loss.
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« Reply #69 on: June 05, 2011, 09:45:12 PM »



If you know it's wrong, and do it anyway, it is automatically a serious sin. My Church doesn't make such clear demarcations but you clearly are condemned by your conscience and ignore it. Not something to play around with.

Agreed. Sin is not to be taken lightly.

Most people outside of the Church don't realize that it was not the eating of meat that was the sin, but it was the disobedience to the legitimate authority of the Church that was the "mortal" sin when people refused to fast on Fridays.  You might argue for gluttony and not be entirely wrong but the real serious infraction was one of disobedience...and that is quite serious a matter.

Exactly. It is telling the Church to "shove it". People who do that need to ask themselves, "Why am I so willfully adamant about not marking the day, with the rest of the Church, when my Lord and Savior died on the Cross for my sins?" It's not asking much. The average American (as of 2007) consumes 222 pounds of meat per year.

It's one thing to forget or be negligent. I've been guilty of this sometimes. But it's another to deny your Church's authority altogether. It's a sign of radical individualism.
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« Reply #70 on: June 05, 2011, 09:57:02 PM »

Really?  It's still technically a mortal sin to not do some sort of ascetic fast on Fridays.  Unconfessed mortal sin leaves one soul in danger of damnation.
Source?

I didn't think it was a mortal sin. Of course, there are three requirements for a sin to be mortal so it is not fair to label anything a "mortal sin" since it varies from person to person. The most it could be is grave matter. Grave matter can still be a venial sin if full knowledge and full consent of the will are not present.

It depends, deliberately stealing a quarter can involve full knowledge and consent, but isn't grave matter so it's not mortal. Just because you know you are committing a sin doesn't make it serious.
I know. I was giving Schultz the benefit of the doubt and assuming that skipping out on a Friday penance was grave matter. I'm not saying it is. I don't know.
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« Reply #71 on: June 05, 2011, 10:02:58 PM »



If you know it's wrong, and do it anyway, it is automatically a serious sin. My Church doesn't make such clear demarcations but you clearly are condemned by your conscience and ignore it. Not something to play around with.

Agreed. Sin is not to be taken lightly.

Most people outside of the Church don't realize that it was not the eating of meat that was the sin, but it was the disobedience to the legitimate authority of the Church that was the "mortal" sin when people refused to fast on Fridays.  You might argue for gluttony and not be entirely wrong but the real serious infraction was one of disobedience...and that is quite serious a matter.

Exactly. It is telling the Church to "shove it". People who do that need to ask themselves, "Why am I so willfully adamant about not marking the day, with the rest of the Church, when my Lord and Savior died on the Cross for my sins?" It's not asking much. The average American (as of 2007) consumes 222 pounds of meat per year.

It's one thing to forget or be negligent. I've been guilty of this sometimes. But it's another to deny your Church's authority altogether. It's a sign of radical individualism.


Yes, and radical individualism lead to the Reformation and the many different Protestant denominations.

Now, back to the Mass and the reforms of the Pope.

It seems to me that the radical liturgical abuses that occurred in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s affected the Catholic Church very negatively and allowed this radical individualism to take root.

Now the Pope has the task to help individuals realize that they are part of a much larger picture, the Church.
That is going to be a very hard task.
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« Reply #72 on: June 05, 2011, 10:07:18 PM »

Yes, and radical individualism lead to the Reformation and the many different Protestant denominations.

Now, back to the Mass and the reforms of the Pope.

It seems to me that the radical liturgical abuses that occurred in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s affected the Catholic Church very negatively and allowed this radical individualism to take root.

Now the Pope has the task to help individuals realize that they are part of a much larger picture, the Church.
That is going to be a very hard task.
Certainly it is a large task, yet I pray that by the power of the Holy Spirit it shall happen.  Smiley
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« Reply #73 on: June 05, 2011, 10:36:59 PM »

I'm just following the rules of my church.  If you want to fault me for that, then I guess you can.  I don't see how me following the the fasting rules my church ask me to do is bad.  I think YOUR the ones who are sinning mortally by being overscrupulously fasting!  And by forcing your children if you have them to do so!  Child protective services should beat down your door!  As 9/11 has taught us, all religious belief must bow down to secular reasoning!  9/11/01 is the great equalizer all religions must bow down before!  After all, I'm an Italian, and you know what they say: God made us Catholics without making us Christians!

I don't know ANY CATHOLIC EVER WHO EVER follows Wed. and Fri. Fasting!  AND I Grew up in a heavily Catholic state from a family who were Catholic for centuries and even today I mainly associate with Catholics and I have never come across any of this brand of "Catholic" mentioned here.  Maybe you people have found them under a rock somewhere.  Give me their names, address, email, and telephone numbers so I can talk to them personally.  I almost guarantee your making this up.
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« Reply #74 on: June 05, 2011, 10:45:25 PM »

all religious belief must bow down to secular reasoning!

LOL. Spoken like a true liberal Anglican or Deist.
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« Reply #75 on: June 05, 2011, 10:47:23 PM »

all religious belief must bow down to secular reasoning!
Uhh....maybe false religions. The only one the Catholic Church bows to is Christ, her founder.
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« Reply #76 on: June 05, 2011, 10:49:06 PM »

I think YOUR the ones who are sinning mortally by being overscrupulously fasting!  And by forcing your children if you have them to do so!  Child protective services should beat down your door!  As 9/11 has taught us, all religious belief must bow down to secular reasoning!  9/11/01 is the great equalizer all religions must bow down before!

"I'm just following the rules of my church.  If you want to fault me for that, then I guess you can.  I don't see how me following the the fasting rules my church ask me to do is bad."
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« Reply #77 on: June 05, 2011, 11:11:56 PM »

I'm just following the rules of my church.  If you want to fault me for that, then I guess you can.  I don't see how me following the the fasting rules my church ask me to do is bad.  I think YOUR the ones who are sinning mortally by being overscrupulously fasting!  And by forcing your children if you have them to do so!  Child protective services should beat down your door!  As 9/11 has taught us, all religious belief must bow down to secular reasoning!  9/11/01 is the great equalizer all religions must bow down before!  After all, I'm an Italian, and you know what they say: God made us Catholics without making us Christians!

I don't know ANY CATHOLIC EVER WHO EVER follows Wed. and Fri. Fasting!  AND I Grew up in a heavily Catholic state from a family who were Catholic for centuries and even today I mainly associate with Catholics and I have never come across any of this brand of "Catholic" mentioned here.  Maybe you people have found them under a rock somewhere.  Give me their names, address, email, and telephone numbers so I can talk to them personally.  I almost guarantee your making this up.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

I think you are making this up too!!

I'll bet you don't know that there are Catholics who follow the Advent fast to this day too.

Many of the people that I know who follow the Wednesday and Friday fast are members of tertiary religious orders but not all of them.

Bet you think I am making that up too.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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« Reply #78 on: June 05, 2011, 11:17:42 PM »

What I'm wondering is if the Holy Father brings back traditional fasting practices, is Robb going to go schismatic over it? Tongue
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« Reply #79 on: June 05, 2011, 11:44:16 PM »

What I'm wondering is if the Holy Father brings back traditional fasting practices, is Robb going to go schismatic over it? Tongue

Well obviously the Pope would be irrational to do that. If people started fasting, what would this world come to? What would be next—Catholic terrorists flying planes into buildings?! (Those crazy Spanish Inquisitors get that way, you know, as soon as their protein deficiency kicks in. And nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.)
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« Reply #80 on: June 06, 2011, 12:04:12 AM »

I'm just following the rules of my church.  If you want to fault me for that, then I guess you can.  I don't see how me following the the fasting rules my church ask me to do is bad.  I think YOUR the ones who are sinning mortally by being overscrupulously fasting!  And by forcing your children if you have them to do so!  Child protective services should beat down your door!  As 9/11 has taught us, all religious belief must bow down to secular reasoning!  9/11/01 is the great equalizer all religions must bow down before!  After all, I'm an Italian, and you know what they say: God made us Catholics without making us Christians!

I don't know ANY CATHOLIC EVER WHO EVER follows Wed. and Fri. Fasting!  AND I Grew up in a heavily Catholic state from a family who were Catholic for centuries and even today I mainly associate with Catholics and I have never come across any of this brand of "Catholic" mentioned here.  Maybe you people have found them under a rock somewhere.  Give me their names, address, email, and telephone numbers so I can talk to them personally.  I almost guarantee your making this up.

Dominican Friars, Nuns, and Third Order members (including the Dominican Laity) have it in their rule to fast and abstain on every Wednesday and Friday unless it is a first class feast day (like Christmas) where they are dispensed from the fasting obligations. Dominican Nuns follow the "Black Fast" which is the ancient Orthodox fast during Great Lent and Christmas Lent. I am speaking from experience as I was a Dominican novice for two years in a cloistered monastery (Second Order - Nuns). I became a member of the Dominican Laity and remained as such until I became a catechumen and was Chrismated into Eastern Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #81 on: June 06, 2011, 12:40:27 AM »

I'm just following the rules of my church.  If you want to fault me for that, then I guess you can.  I don't see how me following the the fasting rules my church ask me to do is bad.  I think YOUR the ones who are sinning mortally by being overscrupulously fasting!  And by forcing your children if you have them to do so!  Child protective services should beat down your door!  As 9/11 has taught us, all religious belief must bow down to secular reasoning!  9/11/01 is the great equalizer all religions must bow down before!  After all, I'm an Italian, and you know what they say: God made us Catholics without making us Christians!

I don't know ANY CATHOLIC EVER WHO EVER follows Wed. and Fri. Fasting!  AND I Grew up in a heavily Catholic state from a family who were Catholic for centuries and even today I mainly associate with Catholics and I have never come across any of this brand of "Catholic" mentioned here.  Maybe you people have found them under a rock somewhere.  Give me their names, address, email, and telephone numbers so I can talk to them personally.  I almost guarantee your making this up.

Dominican Friars, Nuns, and Third Order members (including the Dominican Laity) have it in their rule to fast and abstain on every Wednesday and Friday unless it is a first class feast day (like Christmas) where they are dispensed from the fasting obligations. Dominican Nuns follow the "Black Fast" which is the ancient Orthodox fast during Great Lent and Christmas Lent. I am speaking from experience as I was a Dominican novice for two years in a cloistered monastery (Second Order - Nuns). I became a member of the Dominican Laity and remained as such until I became a catechumen and was Chrismated into Eastern Orthodoxy.

I didn't know your Dominican past, Maria. How nice! I myself have been in discernment with the Dominicans about joining them. And you are correct in what you say.
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« Reply #82 on: June 06, 2011, 12:45:27 AM »

What I'm wondering is if the Holy Father brings back traditional fasting practices, is Robb going to go schismatic over it? Tongue
Of course, if the Pope brought back these fastings, I will do my best to follow them, but I don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon.  As aforementioned, I followed my own church's fast and abstinence policies.  IF you want to follow your own church's fast, do what you think is right.  I'm still kind of leery about letting you emaciate your; letting your children follow them, maybe they could do something more mitigated until they get older.  I'm still not entirely clear about what this whole debate is over, considering I just do as my faith asks me to do, as some of you do of yours-- what are we arguing about?  Are you asking of me to keep the unnecessary OC fasting, which is entirely unnecessary even for you OC.  My philosophy is, it takes Diff'rnt Strokes to rule the world yes it does.  As long as you scandalize not those little ones, lest you die in your sin (with a millstone necklace).  Do what you do, but do what you do in love in what you do.  
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« Reply #83 on: June 06, 2011, 12:46:28 AM »

What I'm wondering is if the Holy Father brings back traditional fasting practices, is Robb going to go schismatic over it? Tongue
Of course, if the Pope brought back these fastings, I will do my best to follow them, but I don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon.  As aforementioned, I followed my own church's fast and abstinence policies.  IF you want to follow your own church's fast, do what you think is right.  I'm still kind of leery about letting you emaciate your; letting your children follow them, maybe they could do something more mitigated until they get older.  I'm still not entirely clear about what this whole debate is over, considering I just do as my faith asks me to do, as some of you do of yours-- what are we arguing about?  Are you asking of me to keep the unnecessary OC fasting, which is entirely unnecessary even for you OC.  My philosophy is, it takes Diff'rnt Strokes to rule the world yes it does.  As long as you scandalize not those little ones, lest you die in your sin (with a millstone necklace).  Do what you do, but do what you do in love in what you do.  
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« Reply #84 on: June 06, 2011, 12:47:02 AM »

This brought an enormous smile to my face. It's a passing shot of Pope Benedict in Croatia today. Those two young men are holding up a sign reading "Thanks to the Holy Father for Summorum Pontificum."

I'm so glad he got to see it. If only he knew how many of us love him dearly and thank him for doing the right thing for our Tradition!



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« Reply #85 on: June 06, 2011, 12:52:24 AM »

This brought an enormous smile to my face. It's a passing shot of Pope Benedict in Croatia today. Those two young men are holding up a sign reading "Thanks to the Holy Father for Summorum Pontificum."

I'm so glad he got to see it. If only he knew how many of us love him dearly and thank him for doing the right thing for our Tradition!



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Oh yeah, I like the Pope a lot too.  You might say him and I are kindred spirits.  angel  Sometimes I pretend like I'm having a conversation with him, and it scares me when he responds with things I did not already know.   Shocked Shocked Shocked
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« Reply #86 on: June 06, 2011, 01:02:35 AM »

What I'm wondering is if the Holy Father brings back traditional fasting practices, is Robb going to go schismatic over it? Tongue
Of course, if the Pope brought back these fastings, I will do my best to follow them, but I don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon.  As aforementioned, I followed my own church's fast and abstinence policies.  IF you want to follow your own church's fast, do what you think is right.  I'm still kind of leery about letting you emaciate your; letting your children follow them, maybe they could do something more mitigated until they get older.  I'm still not entirely clear about what this whole debate is over, considering I just do as my faith asks me to do, as some of you do of yours-- what are we arguing about?  Are you asking of me to keep the unnecessary OC fasting, which is entirely unnecessary even for you OC.  My philosophy is, it takes Diff'rnt Strokes to rule the world yes it does.  As long as you scandalize not those little ones, lest you die in your sin (with a millstone necklace).  Do what you do, but do what you do in love in what you do.  


The traditional fasting practices don't "emaciate" anyone. Get real.
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« Reply #87 on: June 06, 2011, 01:07:30 AM »

I think YOUR the ones who are sinning mortally by being overscrupulously fasting!  And by forcing your children if you have them to do so!  Child protective services should beat down your door!  As 9/11 has taught us, all religious belief must bow down to secular reasoning! 

What a ridiculous comment.   How can anyone take you seriously?  Some vegetarians I know are among the most healthy families there are.  They fast more scrupulously and have healthy families.   Our family feasts heartily and fasts heartily.  We are the better for it.   Maybe the authorities should  be beating down your door for endorsing fat families with fat kids who are killing them slowly with hormoned meat.  Then again, I would be in the same camp.  But then again, I don't endorse a ridiculous secularism like you.   Take your nominalism and stuff it in a chicken with your ignorant view of what sin is seasoned with secularism.   But don't eat it.  Its poisoned.  
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« Reply #88 on: June 06, 2011, 01:09:56 AM »

Robb, If you are not making some sort of penitential observance of every Friday, I think you're falling short. It's not that hard!

Well me and msot other Catholics are all in the same boat.  Your a "trad" so how can I trust anything you say as accurate.  We all know how your kind operate and what you want us all to do (Hint, clingy, lingy, incenssing and lacy).  I'd rather follow my priest counsel then resort to getting spiriutal advice on the internet from some guy who I have no knowledge of and, for all I know could be some kind of pervert or fraud. 

Then get off this forum and leave the rest of us who take matters of faith seriously to discuss it.   
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« Reply #89 on: June 06, 2011, 02:35:22 AM »

I think YOUR the ones who are sinning mortally by being overscrupulously fasting!  And by forcing your children if you have them to do so!  Child protective services should beat down your door!  As 9/11 has taught us, all religious belief must bow down to secular reasoning! 

What a ridiculous comment.   How can anyone take you seriously?  Some vegetarians I know are among the most healthy families there are.  They fast more scrupulously and have healthy families.   Our family feasts heartily and fasts heartily.  We are the better for it.   Maybe the authorities should  be beating down your door for endorsing fat families with fat kids who are killing them slowly with hormoned meat.  Then again, I would be in the same camp.  But then again, I don't endorse a ridiculous secularism like you.   Take your nominalism and stuff it in a chicken with your ignorant view of what sin is seasoned with secularism.   But don't eat it.  Its poisoned.  

Your point is conceded.  I admit to having dealt harshly with this issue, but this is probably due to some psychological factors I have been going through.  I really think that, as a priest you should try to use a more civil tone when discussing this issue with me.  People look to you for calmness and guidance on matters of faith, not as a person who would verbally assault a man in a mentally weakened state.  I am sorry for offenses given though (If this would help cool your temper towards me).

Here is an article on the fasting and abstinence practiced by my religion.  I try my best to follow my Churches guidelines on the matter as well as the directives of my spiritual adviser.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasting_and_abstinence_in_the_Roman_Catholic_Church
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« Reply #90 on: June 06, 2011, 02:49:11 AM »

I think YOUR the ones who are sinning mortally by being overscrupulously fasting!  And by forcing your children if you have them to do so!  Child protective services should beat down your door!  As 9/11 has taught us, all religious belief must bow down to secular reasoning! 

What a ridiculous comment.   How can anyone take you seriously?  Some vegetarians I know are among the most healthy families there are.  They fast more scrupulously and have healthy families.   Our family feasts heartily and fasts heartily.  We are the better for it.   Maybe the authorities should  be beating down your door for endorsing fat families with fat kids who are killing them slowly with hormoned meat.  Then again, I would be in the same camp.  But then again, I don't endorse a ridiculous secularism like you.   Take your nominalism and stuff it in a chicken with your ignorant view of what sin is seasoned with secularism.   But don't eat it.  Its poisoned.  

Your point is conceded.  I admit to having dealt harshly with this issue, but this is probably due to some psychological factors I have been going through.  I really think that, as a priest you should try to use a more civil tone when discussing this issue with me.  People look to you for calmness and guidance on matters of faith, not as a person who would verbally assault a man in a mentally weakened state.  I am sorry for offenses given though (If this would help cool your temper towards me).

Here is an article on the fasting and abstinence practiced by my religion.  I try my best to follow my Churches guidelines on the matter as well as the directives of my spiritual adviser.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasting_and_abstinence_in_the_Roman_Catholic_Church

Are you sure that you can trust wikipedia over the Vatican?
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« Reply #91 on: June 06, 2011, 03:09:50 AM »

It's still technically a mortal sin to not do some sort of asectic fast on Fridays.
I thought that in the USA it was only on Fridays of Lent ? Do you say it is a mortal sin  for every Friday of the year for Catholics in the USA? Could you give us a reference for that? Thanks.
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« Reply #92 on: June 06, 2011, 03:20:47 AM »

I don't know ANY CATHOLIC EVER WHO EVER follows Wed. and Fri. Fasting!
I think you are right about this. I know that in the USA abstinence from meat  is to be observed on the Fridays of Lent. I would like to see a reference which authoritatively states that in the USA it is a mortal sin if you do not do some penance or self denial on the other Fridays of the year.
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« Reply #93 on: June 06, 2011, 08:18:25 AM »

http://www.usccb.org/doctrine/penitential.shtml
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« Reply #94 on: June 06, 2011, 08:35:56 AM »

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time buying into the idea of abstaining from most of the major food groups for around half the year is a healthy way to live.  I'm especially Leary of having children do such things due to the unhealthy way that it could stunt growth.  

Also, I'm not sure about RC's still required to do some type of "ascetic" fasting on Fridays.  I've heard such drivel pedaled around (Mostly by right wing RC's over the year's).  However as far as I know the U.S. bishops dispensed all Catholics from abstaining form meat on Fridays and only recommended that they replace it with some type of penance (Which can be somethings simple as saying a prayer).

When I was OC, the thing that I struggled with the most was fasting (Which I never really even tried to practice).  I wasn't raised on self denial at all.  My parents pretty much said  "Hey, your hungry then eat,or tired then sleep".  Most OC priest I confessed to didn't give me a hard time about it.  They would just say "Do the best you can" (Which I took for code to mean "don't worry about it").  The only priest to give me trouble about it was a Serb one who I confessed to not fasting on Great Friday.  He screeched at me "you didn't fast on the holiest day of the year" to which I replied "no".  He then refused to commune me until the following week because of it.  It was then that I really first realized that Orthodoxy was kind of a crazy strict religion and I seriously started debating with myself about returning to the RCC.

That's one of the things that I like best about Catholicism.  It's a pretty easy religion.  The Church practically goes out of it's way to accommodate her faithful by not requiring too much of them.  That's the way I like things.  Nice and easy.  

Staying home is easier still.  If "easy" is the standard, why go to Church at all?

No I didn't say that all fasting is wrong, I just think that your Churches concept of fasting is wrong for today's world (Apparently so do the vast majority of your faithful who do not practice it at all). 

Would love to see your dataset on your research that demonstrates "the vast majority of (Orthodox) faithful do not practice (fasting) at all...."

Which is to say, I think you made that up out of wholecloth.
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« Reply #95 on: June 06, 2011, 10:10:48 AM »

If anything the majority of EO's might mitigate these fast officially in the near future (Considering the vast majority of EO's have ceased to regularly observe them).

Not gonna happen.  

Quote
Although some might consider it minimalism, it makes for more sense to have fasting rules which, although simpler are more doable for people in this day and age then it is to cling to antiquated and medevil rules which are unrealistic and overly Platonic.

There's nothing unrealistic about the Orthodox fasting rules- some people keep the fast rules quite well. For the rest of us, the challenge is humbling and the struggle can be fruitful. There's no struggle in eating fish on Fridays.  

As for "medieval"... modernity leaves us with even fewer excuses from fasting than our medieval forebears, with the many varied, wholesome, and delicious fast-friendly ingredients readily available to us.

As for "overly Platonic"... do you have any idea what you're talking about?

Yes, I wouldn't have said "overly Platonic" if I didn't know what I was talking about.  

I'm sure there are some OC's who devoutly observe the rigorous fasting rules, it's just that they are a small minority compared to the majority who don't keep them.

Would not it be better to just mitigate the fasting rules of your Church to something that's more realistic and doable for those alive today instead of clinging to something that was institute in a different time and a different world?
Laugh if you will at my RCC's weak fasting and abstinence rules, but at least the majority of our faithful can comply with them without disrupting their natural lives to any great degree. They aren't easy to achieve as you may think so either.  On Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, I am usually starved by midnight after only being allowed one full meal and two collations.  It's not an easy task to master for us who live in a world which does not emphasis any sort of self denial.  Heaven only knows that I've almost been tempted to break under the strain of our RC Lenten fast, but thankfully I always managed to hold off on the hot dogs till after midnight.

One of the main points of fasting is to disrupt our culinary lives to a great degree.  I am a firm believer that if you can't eat a vegan meal twice a week, barring medical issues, there really is something wrong with you and, God forgive me, you (which let me be clear I'm using in the most general sense) are lazy, selfish fool who can't be bothered to exert a little effort for the sake of bringing your body in line with your soul.



Well, that's your opinion.  My Church thinks and teaches otherwise.  The Vatican believes that by mitigating the fasting rules, more people will be able to follow them.  Of course you can do more if you wish, but that's something that's entirely on your plate.  The RCC doesn't force any type of spiritual progression onto her members.  We believe in free will and any type of spiritual development on the part of an individual must come from within them and not due to forced coercion or fear of damnation for not having done so.

Really?  It's still technically a mortal sin to not do some sort of asectic fast on Fridays.  Unconfessed mortal sin leaves one soul in danger of damnation.

Quote
Also I would seriously have to argue about the healthiness of keeping such severe and rigorous fasting as perscribed by Orthodoxy.  Modern science tells us that the human body needs the proteins that such foods as meats, fish, and dairy products give us on a regular basis.  Is it right then to deprive ourselves and especially our children of these vital nutrients because of an attempt to cling to an antiquated way of spiritual development that some people came up with in the first millennium?  Look at the so called "Vegans".  They are known to suffer from all kinds of deficiencies and malnutrition due to their supposedly health lifestyle.  Is this what we want for ourselves?

I understand the attachment of some to fasting and its supposed benefits.  I just can't help but feel that the type of fasting and self denial that is proscribed by the OC is not healthy for a normal human being to endure.  My Church obviously feels the same way since she long ago did away with such rigorous style of self discipline as the ancient fasting rules were.  


Yep, all these successful athletes (these ones, too...including a 4-time Mr. Universe!) suffer from all sorts of deficiencies and malnutrition.

There are far more omnivores who suffer from far more deficiencies and diet-related illnesses than vegans and vegetarians.  If you suffer from malnutrition from a vegan diet, you're simply doing it wrong.  And that's on the person, not on the diet itself.

Nice try, but, once again, an EPIC FAIL.



Why should I believe you.  Your obviouisly junked up in support of your religion so your going to try and give me all kinds of supposed "facts' in order to support what your claiming.  I'd rather use my God given reason to deduce that abstaining from most of the major food groups for half the year is unhealthy for a person to do.  Believe what you will, but this sounds much more realsitic to me then the evidence youve cited.

I see.  You're the one who just made a blanket generalization about those on vegan diets for which I provided more than a few examples of people who completely demolish your supposed "fact" about how vegans are all malnourished and somehow deficient and I'm the one at fault here.  Nice.

The obesity epidemic in this country is proof positive that we as Americans do not know how to eat right.  The oveconsumption of red meat (the wiki article on red meat is replete with reference to scientific studies, so go there and actually click on the sourced links so you dont take wiki's word for it) has been linked to all sorts of health problems. 

Let me be clear again: I love meat.  I eat it with gusto.  But I also know that eating a vegetarian/vegan diet helps me to not only maintain a healthy body weight and a better appreciation of the meat/dairy I do consume, but it's also helped me spiritually.  Food is a gift from God to me now.  I know that trying my best (for I do often fail in the oil and dairy dept) to follow the fasts has helped me be a better Christian. 

You do what you want and may God bless you in that.  But I'll not stand idly by while you toss out wicked and broad generalizations about people, about their diet, and about the Church's discipline in regards to fasts and abstinence. 
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« Reply #96 on: June 06, 2011, 10:18:43 AM »

Really?  It's still technically a mortal sin to not do some sort of asectic fast on Fridays.  Unconfessed mortal sin leaves one soul in danger of damnation.
Source?

I didn't think it was a mortal sin. Of course, there are three requirements for a sin to be mortal so it is not fair to label anything a "mortal sin" since it varies from person to person. The most it could be is grave matter. Grave matter can still be a venial sin if full knowledge and full consent of the will are not present.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4O.HTM

I will concede your point about mortal/venial sin.  However, once someone is aware that one is bound (which I was always taught meant "grave matter"...one does not "bind" someone to do something unless it's incredibly important aka grave) "to do penance" (Canon 1249) "every Friday of the whole year" (Canon 1250) by "[a]bstinence from meat, or from some other food as determined by the Episcopal Conference" (Canon 1251) or a "substitute...especially works of charity and exercises of piety, in whole or in part, for abstinence and fast" (Canon 1253) and then refuses to do so without good reason (of which, nowadays, there are painfully few thanks to the broadness that the Roman Catholic Church now allows), one is committing a mortal sin.  You can try to dance around it all you want to justify a reason why this would not be considered such, but to do so would not only be setting a dangerous personal precedent, but also set a bad example (eg. scandal) to other Roman Catholics.
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« Reply #97 on: June 06, 2011, 10:29:01 AM »

Really?  It's still technically a mortal sin to not do some sort of asectic fast on Fridays.  Unconfessed mortal sin leaves one soul in danger of damnation.
Source?

I didn't think it was a mortal sin. Of course, there are three requirements for a sin to be mortal so it is not fair to label anything a "mortal sin" since it varies from person to person. The most it could be is grave matter. Grave matter can still be a venial sin if full knowledge and full consent of the will are not present.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4O.HTM

I will concede your point about mortal/venial sin.  However, once someone is aware that one is bound (which I was always taught meant "grave matter"...one does not "bind" someone to do something unless it's incredibly important aka grave) "to do penance" (Canon 1249) "every Friday of the whole year" (Canon 1250) by "[a]bstinence from meat, or from some other food as determined by the Episcopal Conference" (Canon 1251) or a "substitute...especially works of charity and exercises of piety, in whole or in part, for abstinence and fast" (Canon 1253) and then refuses to do so without good reason (of which, nowadays, there are painfully few thanks to the broadness that the Roman Catholic Church now allows), one is committing a mortal sin.  You can try to dance around it all you want to justify a reason why this would not be considered such, but to do so would not only be setting a dangerous personal precedent, but also set a bad example (eg. scandal) to other Roman Catholics.

These fellows need to look up the meaning of contumacious disobedience.   Therein lies the gravity of the sin, and as you note above there is no doubt for the well formed Catholic conscience.
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« Reply #98 on: June 06, 2011, 10:36:21 AM »

Hi all. Till this morning, I hadn't participated on OC-net for some days, so I hope my comments here won't be too outdated.

I'm not out to win favors for any side.  I have never heard that a person was required to perform some type of penance if they did not eat meat on Fridays.  

Hi Robb. I was going to bring up this very topic. Then I discovered that you had already raised it, so I decided to respond. Then I read even further and discovered that there were already many, many posts on it.

So I'll confine myself to saying that I think you are in very good company: very few Catholics seem to be aware of the requirement to perform some type of penance on Fridays.
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« Reply #99 on: June 06, 2011, 10:41:49 AM »

Your a "trad" so how can I trust anything you say as accurate.

I think this is one of the biggest problems in Catholicism right now: so many people have a mindset of "Only listen to Catholics who are neo-conservative like me" or "Only listen to Catholics who are traditionalist like me" or "Only listen to Catholics who are __________ like me".

Mutual isolationism, I guess.
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« Reply #100 on: June 06, 2011, 10:42:55 AM »

Hi all. Till this morning, I hadn't participated on OC-net for some days, so I hope my comments here won't be too outdated.

I'm not out to win favors for any side.  I have never heard that a person was required to perform some type of penance if they did not eat meat on Fridays.  

Hi Robb. I was going to bring up this very topic. Then I discovered that you had already raised it, so I decided to respond. Then I read even further and discovered that there were already many, many posts on it.

So I'll confine myself to saying that I think you are in very good company: very few Catholics seem to be aware of the requirement to perform some type of penance on Fridays.

I think that may well be an overstatement.  They know but they are not encouraged or directed in terms of what to do and why.  I know very few Catholics who don't know.  I know many more who don't do.
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« Reply #101 on: June 06, 2011, 10:58:06 AM »

The obesity epidemic in this country is proof positive that we as Americans do not know how to eat right.  The oveconsumption of red meat (the wiki article on red meat is replete with reference to scientific studies, so go there and actually click on the sourced links so you dont take wiki's word for it) has been linked to all sorts of health problems. 

Let me be clear again: I love meat.  I eat it with gusto.  But I also know that eating a vegetarian/vegan diet helps me to not only maintain a healthy body weight and a better appreciation of the meat/dairy I do consume, but it's also helped me spiritually.  Food is a gift from God to me now.  I know that trying my best (for I do often fail in the oil and dairy dept) to follow the fasts has helped me be a better Christian. 

You do what you want and may God bless you in that.  But I'll not stand idly by while you toss out wicked and broad generalizations about people, about their diet, and about the Church's discipline in regards to fasts and abstinence. 

I found this article exceedingly helpful, not to Orthodox fasting discipline, but to eating in general.

I wish I followed it more closely.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/magazine/28nutritionism.t.html
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« Reply #102 on: June 06, 2011, 11:20:16 AM »

I'm not judging Roman Catholics, because all the ones I know in real life (who are not all "right wing" or "trad") recognize the importance and necessity of asceticism and fasting.

I think you mean all the ones you've spoken to on this issue.

You will have to do a lot to convince anyone that Christianity is not an ascetic religion. The Bible and the Fathers are full of examples of self-denial.

Hear hear.
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« Reply #103 on: June 06, 2011, 11:20:36 AM »

You don't have to whip yourself and wear a hair-shirt.

Now you tell me.
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« Reply #104 on: June 06, 2011, 11:35:17 AM »

Yes, and radical individualism lead to the Reformation and the many different Protestant denominations.

Now, back to the Mass and the reforms of the Pope.

It seems to me that the radical liturgical abuses that occurred in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s affected the Catholic Church very negatively and allowed this radical individualism to take root.

Alright, but we should also be careful not to romanticize (or nostalgize) the Catholicism of the 1950s.
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« Reply #105 on: June 06, 2011, 01:38:40 PM »

What I'm wondering is if the Holy Father brings back traditional fasting practices, is Robb going to go schismatic over it? Tongue
Of course, if the Pope brought back these fastings, I will do my best to follow them, but I don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon.  As aforementioned, I followed my own church's fast and abstinence policies.  IF you want to follow your own church's fast, do what you think is right.  I'm still kind of leery about letting you emaciate your; letting your children follow them, maybe they could do something more mitigated until they get older.  I'm still not entirely clear about what this whole debate is over, considering I just do as my faith asks me to do, as some of you do of yours-- what are we arguing about?  Are you asking of me to keep the unnecessary OC fasting, which is entirely unnecessary even for you OC.  My philosophy is, it takes Diff'rnt Strokes to rule the world yes it does.  As long as you scandalize not those little ones, lest you die in your sin (with a millstone necklace).  Do what you do, but do what you do in love in what you do.  
First off I am not Eastern Orthodox, I am Catholic. Secondly, I want to go on record saying I never attacked you or thought less of you based on your preferred fasting method. Also, the what-about-the-children excuse for not having more rigorous fasting is bogus. You don't have to observe the fasts of the Church until your fourteenth year.
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« Reply #106 on: June 06, 2011, 03:58:25 PM »

... we should also be careful not to romanticize (or nostalgize) the Catholicism of the 1950s.
I am not sure that I see what is wrong with nostalgia.
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« Reply #107 on: June 06, 2011, 04:09:17 PM »

If anything the majority of EO's might mitigate these fast officially in the near future (Considering the vast majority of EO's have ceased to regularly observe them).

Not gonna happen.  

Quote
Although some might consider it minimalism, it makes for more sense to have fasting rules which, although simpler are more doable for people in this day and age then it is to cling to antiquated and medevil rules which are unrealistic and overly Platonic.

There's nothing unrealistic about the Orthodox fasting rules- some people keep the fast rules quite well. For the rest of us, the challenge is humbling and the struggle can be fruitful. There's no struggle in eating fish on Fridays.  

As for "medieval"... modernity leaves us with even fewer excuses from fasting than our medieval forebears, with the many varied, wholesome, and delicious fast-friendly ingredients readily available to us.

As for "overly Platonic"... do you have any idea what you're talking about?

Yes, I wouldn't have said "overly Platonic" if I didn't know what I was talking about.  

I'm sure there are some OC's who devoutly observe the rigorous fasting rules, it's just that they are a small minority compared to the majority who don't keep them.

Would not it be better to just mitigate the fasting rules of your Church to something that's more realistic and doable for those alive today instead of clinging to something that was institute in a different time and a different world?
Laugh if you will at my RCC's weak fasting and abstinence rules, but at least the majority of our faithful can comply with them without disrupting their natural lives to any great degree. They aren't easy to achieve as you may think so either.  On Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, I am usually starved by midnight after only being allowed one full meal and two collations.  It's not an easy task to master for us who live in a world which does not emphasis any sort of self denial.  Heaven only knows that I've almost been tempted to break under the strain of our RC Lenten fast, but thankfully I always managed to hold off on the hot dogs till after midnight.

One of the main points of fasting is to disrupt our culinary lives to a great degree.  I am a firm believer that if you can't eat a vegan meal twice a week, barring medical issues, there really is something wrong with you and, God forgive me, you (which let me be clear I'm using in the most general sense) are lazy, selfish fool who can't be bothered to exert a little effort for the sake of bringing your body in line with your soul.



The only thing I don't like about this quote is that I did not say it first :-)

You are quite right. If our fasting is not disrupting our eating habits then how are we fasting?

Of course, fasting is not an end in itself but a means to an end as we all know. Still, if we sow sparingly we will reap sparingly and if we sow bountifully we will reap bountifully as the Apostle says.

Good show, bro!
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« Reply #108 on: June 06, 2011, 04:21:38 PM »

Your a "trad" so how can I trust anything you say as accurate.

I think this is one of the biggest problems in Catholicism right now: so many people have a mindset of "Only listen to Catholics who are neo-conservative like me" or "Only listen to Catholics who are traditionalist like me" or "Only listen to Catholics who are __________ like me".

Mutual isolationism, I guess.

I agree.  We should listen more to what the Church says and less to what factions within her say. 

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« Reply #109 on: June 06, 2011, 04:26:12 PM »

Really?  It's still technically a mortal sin to not do some sort of asectic fast on Fridays.  Unconfessed mortal sin leaves one soul in danger of damnation.
Source?

I didn't think it was a mortal sin. Of course, there are three requirements for a sin to be mortal so it is not fair to label anything a "mortal sin" since it varies from person to person. The most it could be is grave matter. Grave matter can still be a venial sin if full knowledge and full consent of the will are not present.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4O.HTM

I will concede your point about mortal/venial sin.  However, once someone is aware that one is bound (which I was always taught meant "grave matter"...one does not "bind" someone to do something unless it's incredibly important aka grave) "to do penance" (Canon 1249) "every Friday of the whole year" (Canon 1250) by "[a]bstinence from meat, or from

You can do penance by saying a prayer, or helping an old lady across the street.  I think the problem lies when people in another Church (Like OC's) attempt to insert their own definition of what penance means onto my Church.  As mentioned , while the Vatican still has standards, things have definitly "broadened" up as to what you can and cannot do in recent decades.



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Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
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