OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 20, 2014, 02:46:06 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The discipline of fasting/abstinence: traditional norms outdated?  (Read 4895 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« on: June 02, 2011, 04:39:26 PM »

Some of these changes may, over time be implemented.  However, while the RCC may re-institute Friday abstinence (As was done in the UK recently) I seriously doubt they are going to reintroduce Eastern style fasting disciplines on Catholics.  If anything the majority of EO's might mitigate these fast officially in the near future (Considering the vast majority of EO's have ceased to regularly observe them).  Although some might consider it minimalism, it makes for more sense to have fasting rules which, although simpler are more doable for people in this day and age then it is to cling to antiquated and medevil rules which are unrealistic and overly Platonic.
Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 7,019


"My god is greater."


« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2011, 11:51:19 PM »

If anything the majority of EO's might mitigate these fast officially in the near future (Considering the vast majority of EO's have ceased to regularly observe them).

Not gonna happen.  

Quote
Although some might consider it minimalism, it makes for more sense to have fasting rules which, although simpler are more doable for people in this day and age then it is to cling to antiquated and medevil rules which are unrealistic and overly Platonic.

There's nothing unrealistic about the Orthodox fasting rules- some people keep the fast rules quite well. For the rest of us, the challenge is humbling and the struggle can be fruitful. There's no struggle in eating fish on Fridays. 

As for "medieval"... modernity leaves us with even fewer excuses from fasting than our medieval forebears, with the many varied, wholesome, and delicious fast-friendly ingredients readily available to us.

As for "overly Platonic"... do you have any idea what you're talking about?
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2011, 11:59:35 PM »

There's no struggle in eating fish on Fridays. 
I don't know, by the end of Lent I am pretty sick of fish.  Cheesy
Logged
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2011, 03:32:17 AM »

If anything the majority of EO's might mitigate these fast officially in the near future (Considering the vast majority of EO's have ceased to regularly observe them).

Not gonna happen.  

Quote
Although some might consider it minimalism, it makes for more sense to have fasting rules which, although simpler are more doable for people in this day and age then it is to cling to antiquated and medevil rules which are unrealistic and overly Platonic.

There's nothing unrealistic about the Orthodox fasting rules- some people keep the fast rules quite well. For the rest of us, the challenge is humbling and the struggle can be fruitful. There's no struggle in eating fish on Fridays.  

As for "medieval"... modernity leaves us with even fewer excuses from fasting than our medieval forebears, with the many varied, wholesome, and delicious fast-friendly ingredients readily available to us.

As for "overly Platonic"... do you have any idea what you're talking about?

Yes, I wouldn't have said "overly Platonic" if I didn't know what I was talking about.  

I'm sure there are some OC's who devoutly observe the rigorous fasting rules, it's just that they are a small minority compared to the majority who don't keep them.

Would not it be better to just mitigate the fasting rules of your Church to something that's more realistic and doable for those alive today instead of clinging to something that was institute in a different time and a different world?
Laugh if you will at my RCC's weak fasting and abstinence rules, but at least the majority of our faithful can comply with them without disrupting their natural lives to any great degree. They aren't easy to achieve as you may think so either.  On Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, I am usually starved by midnight after only being allowed one full meal and two collations.  It's not an easy task to master for us who live in a world which does not emphasis any sort of self denial.  Heaven only knows that I've almost been tempted to break under the strain of our RC Lenten fast, but thankfully I always managed to hold off on the hot dogs till after midnight.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 03:33:18 AM by Robb » Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2011, 08:47:17 AM »

If anything the majority of EO's might mitigate these fast officially in the near future (Considering the vast majority of EO's have ceased to regularly observe them).

Not gonna happen.  

Quote
Although some might consider it minimalism, it makes for more sense to have fasting rules which, although simpler are more doable for people in this day and age then it is to cling to antiquated and medevil rules which are unrealistic and overly Platonic.

There's nothing unrealistic about the Orthodox fasting rules- some people keep the fast rules quite well. For the rest of us, the challenge is humbling and the struggle can be fruitful. There's no struggle in eating fish on Fridays.  

As for "medieval"... modernity leaves us with even fewer excuses from fasting than our medieval forebears, with the many varied, wholesome, and delicious fast-friendly ingredients readily available to us.

As for "overly Platonic"... do you have any idea what you're talking about?

Yes, I wouldn't have said "overly Platonic" if I didn't know what I was talking about.  

I'm sure there are some OC's who devoutly observe the rigorous fasting rules, it's just that they are a small minority compared to the majority who don't keep them.

Would not it be better to just mitigate the fasting rules of your Church to something that's more realistic and doable for those alive today instead of clinging to something that was institute in a different time and a different world?
Laugh if you will at my RCC's weak fasting and abstinence rules, but at least the majority of our faithful can comply with them without disrupting their natural lives to any great degree. They aren't easy to achieve as you may think so either.  On Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, I am usually starved by midnight after only being allowed one full meal and two collations.  It's not an easy task to master for us who live in a world which does not emphasis any sort of self denial.  Heaven only knows that I've almost been tempted to break under the strain of our RC Lenten fast, but thankfully I always managed to hold off on the hot dogs till after midnight.

Robb...really...

I think one of the things that is not good about the Orthodox fast is the legalistic and inordinate attention paid by so many to ALL those lovely tasty and expensive substitutes one can use to hold to the letter of the law but not its spirit. 

As Robb says there are very few who dry fast but, by God, I admire those who do, especially those who have children.
Logged

Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2011, 09:27:11 AM »

ALL those lovely tasty and expensive substitutes one can use to hold to the letter of the law but not its spirit.

I don't know about the "expensive" stuff, but I've noticed myself avoiding the "lovely and tasty" things permitted for fasting when I'm not fasting.

Quote
As Robb says there are very few who dry fast but, by God, I admire those who do, especially those who have children.

This is actually the "legalism" I am starting to make progress on getting over. I don't have children, but I am still learning to eat shared meals prepared by someone else and try not to be too strict when cooking for someone else. It may be easy to keep the rules by occasionally using some form of shellfish (some not really that expensive) for extra protein, but I find it hard (but doable) to break the rules in instances where it would be more appropriate than keeping them (eating my sister's cooking).
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2011, 10:03:14 AM »

Jesus said to be perfect, knowing full well many wouldn't reach that goal. He didn't say "Be as nice as you can."

The church doesn't slacken its standards just because people don't do it. They are goals to be worked towards. Nobody gets ripped by lifting 2-pound barbells. You start there with the goal of lifting 50-pound ones. But no goal, no growth.
Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,481


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2011, 10:41:53 AM »

If anything the majority of EO's might mitigate these fast officially in the near future (Considering the vast majority of EO's have ceased to regularly observe them).

Not gonna happen.  

Quote
Although some might consider it minimalism, it makes for more sense to have fasting rules which, although simpler are more doable for people in this day and age then it is to cling to antiquated and medevil rules which are unrealistic and overly Platonic.

There's nothing unrealistic about the Orthodox fasting rules- some people keep the fast rules quite well. For the rest of us, the challenge is humbling and the struggle can be fruitful. There's no struggle in eating fish on Fridays.  

As for "medieval"... modernity leaves us with even fewer excuses from fasting than our medieval forebears, with the many varied, wholesome, and delicious fast-friendly ingredients readily available to us.

As for "overly Platonic"... do you have any idea what you're talking about?

Yes, I wouldn't have said "overly Platonic" if I didn't know what I was talking about.  

I'm sure there are some OC's who devoutly observe the rigorous fasting rules, it's just that they are a small minority compared to the majority who don't keep them.

Would not it be better to just mitigate the fasting rules of your Church to something that's more realistic and doable for those alive today instead of clinging to something that was institute in a different time and a different world?
Laugh if you will at my RCC's weak fasting and abstinence rules, but at least the majority of our faithful can comply with them without disrupting their natural lives to any great degree. They aren't easy to achieve as you may think so either.  On Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, I am usually starved by midnight after only being allowed one full meal and two collations.  It's not an easy task to master for us who live in a world which does not emphasis any sort of self denial.  Heaven only knows that I've almost been tempted to break under the strain of our RC Lenten fast, but thankfully I always managed to hold off on the hot dogs till after midnight.

One of the main points of fasting is to disrupt our culinary lives to a great degree.  I am a firm believer that if you can't eat a vegan meal twice a week, barring medical issues, there really is something wrong with you and, God forgive me, you (which let me be clear I'm using in the most general sense) are lazy, selfish fool who can't be bothered to exert a little effort for the sake of bringing your body in line with your soul.

Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2011, 11:42:29 AM »

I think one of the things that is not good about the Orthodox fast is the legalistic and inordinate attention paid by so many to ALL those lovely tasty and expensive substitutes one can use to hold to the letter of the law but not its spirit.
I think this is true with the meat abstinence in our Church too. I think it is kind of strange that I could technically go to Red Lobster and have lobster tail, scallops, shrimp scampi, etc. and not be breaking my meat abstinence on a Friday during Lent.
Logged
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2011, 02:19:37 PM »

One of the main points of fasting is to disrupt our culinary lives to a great degree.  I am a firm believer that if you can't eat a vegan meal twice a week, barring medical issues, there really is something wrong with you and, God forgive me, you (which let me be clear I'm using in the most general sense) are lazy, selfish fool who can't be bothered to exert a little effort for the sake of bringing your body in line with your soul.

Boom, headshot.
Logged


I'm going to need this.
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 7,019


"My god is greater."


« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2011, 02:21:22 PM »

One of the main points of fasting is to disrupt our culinary lives to a great degree.  I am a firm believer that if you can't eat a vegan meal twice a week, barring medical issues, there really is something wrong with you and, God forgive me, you (which let me be clear I'm using in the most general sense) are lazy, selfish fool who can't be bothered to exert a little effort for the sake of bringing your body in line with your soul.

Boom, headshot.

As the French say, l'ownage
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2011, 06:14:04 PM »

I think one of the things that is not good about the Orthodox fast is the legalistic and inordinate attention paid by so many to ALL those lovely tasty and expensive substitutes one can use to hold to the letter of the law but not its spirit.
I think this is true with the meat abstinence in our Church too. I think it is kind of strange that I could technically go to Red Lobster and have lobster tail, scallops, shrimp scampi, etc. and not be breaking my meat abstinence on a Friday during Lent.
The rules give you a minimum obligation. No one prevents you from doing more than the minimum. 
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2011, 08:34:03 PM »

ALL those lovely tasty and expensive substitutes one can use to hold to the letter of the law but not its spirit.

I don't know about the "expensive" stuff, but I've noticed myself avoiding the "lovely and tasty" things permitted for fasting when I'm not fasting.

Quote
As Robb says there are very few who dry fast but, by God, I admire those who do, especially those who have children.

This is actually the "legalism" I am starting to make progress on getting over. I don't have children, but I am still learning to eat shared meals prepared by someone else and try not to be too strict when cooking for someone else. It may be easy to keep the rules by occasionally using some form of shellfish (some not really that expensive) for extra protein, but I find it hard (but doable) to break the rules in instances where it would be more appropriate than keeping them (eating my sister's cooking).

Knowing the people of whom I speak personally, I must say this is most insulting.  These are good people who are both cradle and convert and they do what they do with great love and NO fanfare and their children are exemplary in the Church and in life.

You need to check yourself on this one.

I am not upset...Simply stating a few facts.
Logged

ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2011, 08:53:55 PM »

ALL those lovely tasty and expensive substitutes one can use to hold to the letter of the law but not its spirit.

I don't know about the "expensive" stuff, but I've noticed myself avoiding the "lovely and tasty" things permitted for fasting when I'm not fasting.

Quote
As Robb says there are very few who dry fast but, by God, I admire those who do, especially those who have children.

This is actually the "legalism" I am starting to make progress on getting over. I don't have children, but I am still learning to eat shared meals prepared by someone else and try not to be too strict when cooking for someone else. It may be easy to keep the rules by occasionally using some form of shellfish (some not really that expensive) for extra protein, but I find it hard (but doable) to break the rules in instances where it would be more appropriate than keeping them (eating my sister's cooking).

Knowing the people of whom I speak personally, I must say this is most insulting.  These are good people who are both cradle and convert and they do what they do with great love and NO fanfare and their children are exemplary in the Church and in life.

You need to check yourself on this one.

I am not upset...Simply stating a few facts.
Um, what exactly are you feeling "insulted" about?
I think you've may be misread something somewhere.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2011, 09:29:03 PM »

ALL those lovely tasty and expensive substitutes one can use to hold to the letter of the law but not its spirit.

I don't know about the "expensive" stuff, but I've noticed myself avoiding the "lovely and tasty" things permitted for fasting when I'm not fasting.

Quote
As Robb says there are very few who dry fast but, by God, I admire those who do, especially those who have children.

This is actually the "legalism" I am starting to make progress on getting over. I don't have children, but I am still learning to eat shared meals prepared by someone else and try not to be too strict when cooking for someone else. It may be easy to keep the rules by occasionally using some form of shellfish (some not really that expensive) for extra protein, but I find it hard (but doable) to break the rules in instances where it would be more appropriate than keeping them (eating my sister's cooking).

Knowing the people of whom I speak personally, I must say this is most insulting.  These are good people who are both cradle and convert and they do what they do with great love and NO fanfare and their children are exemplary in the Church and in life.

You need to check yourself on this one.

I am not upset...Simply stating a few facts.

I don't mean to be insulting, only saying that the rules are the means and not the end. As I said, having learned the rules and put them into practice, I'm still working on learning to follow them according to the spirit. I have figured out that eating nothing but beans, rice, and water can be just as legalistic as eating crab meat, vegan meat substitutes, and reading the labels on everything to find the one brand that doesn't use certain ingredients in the general product you desire. Not to mention the time I told my mom not to make me a cake for my birthday (which falls in lent) because it had milk and eggs in it (this was a couple of years ago when i first started following the rules - and very strictly). I don't know the people you are referring to and can't say anything about them personally, so I meant nothing toward anyone in particular.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2011, 09:50:09 PM »

ALL those lovely tasty and expensive substitutes one can use to hold to the letter of the law but not its spirit.

I don't know about the "expensive" stuff, but I've noticed myself avoiding the "lovely and tasty" things permitted for fasting when I'm not fasting.

Quote
As Robb says there are very few who dry fast but, by God, I admire those who do, especially those who have children.

This is actually the "legalism" I am starting to make progress on getting over. I don't have children, but I am still learning to eat shared meals prepared by someone else and try not to be too strict when cooking for someone else. It may be easy to keep the rules by occasionally using some form of shellfish (some not really that expensive) for extra protein, but I find it hard (but doable) to break the rules in instances where it would be more appropriate than keeping them (eating my sister's cooking).

Knowing the people of whom I speak personally, I must say this is most insulting.  These are good people who are both cradle and convert and they do what they do with great love and NO fanfare and their children are exemplary in the Church and in life.

You need to check yourself on this one.

I am not upset...Simply stating a few facts.

I don't mean to be insulting, only saying that the rules are the means and not the end. As I said, having learned the rules and put them into practice, I'm still working on learning to follow them according to the spirit. I have figured out that eating nothing but beans, rice, and water can be just as legalistic as eating crab meat, vegan meat substitutes, and reading the labels on everything to find the one brand that doesn't use certain ingredients in the general product you desire. Not to mention the time I told my mom not to make me a cake for my birthday (which falls in lent) because it had milk and eggs in it (this was a couple of years ago when i first started following the rules - and very strictly). I don't know the people you are referring to and can't say anything about them personally, so I meant nothing toward anyone in particular.

Yes.  It is not a matter of comparing, and that is key to the avoidance of many faults.

It is not good to presume anything about anyone's practice as you say you did not and I believe you did not.  It just seemed you were saying that all strictness was legalistic and that of course is neither real nor true...So I do understand what you were thinking about now.
Logged

Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2011, 10:09:33 PM »

I think one of the things that is not good about the Orthodox fast is the legalistic and inordinate attention paid by so many to ALL those lovely tasty and expensive substitutes one can use to hold to the letter of the law but not its spirit.
I think this is true with the meat abstinence in our Church too. I think it is kind of strange that I could technically go to Red Lobster and have lobster tail, scallops, shrimp scampi, etc. and not be breaking my meat abstinence on a Friday during Lent.
The rules give you a minimum obligation. No one prevents you from doing more than the minimum. 
Right, I know, and I'm not saying I have ever actually went to Red Lobster during Lent because I actually haven't. I'm just saying that I think it is weird that there is such a huge loophole that someone could actually pig out at Red Lobster and still not have broken the Friday abstinence.
Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,130


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2011, 11:04:02 PM »

I think one of the things that is not good about the Orthodox fast is the legalistic and inordinate attention paid by so many to ALL those lovely tasty and expensive substitutes one can use to hold to the letter of the law but not its spirit.
I think this is true with the meat abstinence in our Church too. I think it is kind of strange that I could technically go to Red Lobster and have lobster tail, scallops, shrimp scampi, etc. and not be breaking my meat abstinence on a Friday during Lent.
The rules give you a minimum obligation. No one prevents you from doing more than the minimum.  
Right, I know, and I'm not saying I have ever actually went to Red Lobster during Lent because I actually haven't. I'm just saying that I think it is weird that there is such a huge loophole that someone could actually pig out at Red Lobster and still not have broken the Friday abstinence.

Once a Greek Orthodox Priest was eating out with his family at Red Lobster. They chose something a little less expensive that day as it was a Friday and they wanted to keep the fast, but a parishioner saw the Priest and came over to his table.

The man asked, "Father, since we are ordering lobster, would it be okay to have butter with it? Lobster does not taste good without the butter sauce."

Father responded, "Since you have just purchased lobster, which is a very expensive meal, sure go ahead and enjoy the butter too, but that is not really the spirit of Lent."


At a Bible Study class, we were studying the reason for fasting. Father gave this example of how not to fast. The Priest was blessing a home, and it just happened to be on a Friday. He mentioned that when we fast, we fast to curb our tongue learn to say no to sin, and curb our appetite as gluttony can lead to lust.

So the family prepared a spaghetti dinner (without the meat balls). Here was the conversation:

The father of the family: "Father, would you like to have an extra serving. It looks like you could afford to put on some weight."

Priest: "No thanks."

Father of the family: "Are you sure you do not want another helping?"

Priest: "No thanks. Really, I have had plenty of delicious food. Thanks again for having me over for dinner."

Father of the family: "Well, I am going to have a huge second helping. Honey, this food is exquisite."



« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 11:04:39 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
SubdeaconDavid
"...the spread of the light of Orthodoxy among the peoples of all the lands where our Church exists continues as an inseparable part of our mission": Metropolitan Hilarion, First Hierarch of ROCOR
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox Church Abroad (ROCOR)
Posts: 504


Помилуй мя Боже, по велицей милости Твоей


WWW
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2011, 12:11:11 AM »

Good parable.  The rules are only a means to an end - not the end point.  Nonetheless the rules were framed as they are framed with adherence to them expected, by most Orthodox Christians who are serious in their faith.  For the young, elderly and infirm and for particular reasons shared with one's priest, exceptions can be made.  They are however exceptions - not the rule.  There is so much convenience in off the shelf foods - even vegan foods that comply with fasting rules, so there is no excuse to say our modern life is too busy to fast.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 12:11:41 AM by SubdeaconDavid » Logged

Visit my blog@  http://orthodoxtasmania.blogspot.com

To the Russians abroad it has been granted to shine in the whole world  the light of Orthodoxy, so that other peoples, seeing their good deeds, might glorify our Father in Heaven, and thus obtain salvation
S John of Shanghai & San Francisco
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2011, 04:03:54 AM »

I think one of the things that is not good about the Orthodox fast is the legalistic and inordinate attention paid by so many to ALL those lovely tasty and expensive substitutes one can use to hold to the letter of the law but not its spirit.
I think this is true with the meat abstinence in our Church too. I think it is kind of strange that I could technically go to Red Lobster and have lobster tail, scallops, shrimp scampi, etc. and not be breaking my meat abstinence on a Friday during Lent.
The rules give you a minimum obligation. No one prevents you from doing more than the minimum. 
Right, I know, and I'm not saying I have ever actually went to Red Lobster during Lent because I actually haven't. I'm just saying that I think it is weird that there is such a huge loophole that someone could actually pig out at Red Lobster and still not have broken the Friday abstinence.
I guess the idea is not to look for too many loopholes, but to act in the spirit of the law.
Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2011, 04:26:53 AM »

I think one of the things that is not good about the Orthodox fast is the legalistic and inordinate attention paid by so many to ALL those lovely tasty and expensive substitutes one can use to hold to the letter of the law but not its spirit.
I think this is true with the meat abstinence in our Church too. I think it is kind of strange that I could technically go to Red Lobster and have lobster tail, scallops, shrimp scampi, etc. and not be breaking my meat abstinence on a Friday during Lent.
The rules give you a minimum obligation. No one prevents you from doing more than the minimum. 
Right, I know, and I'm not saying I have ever actually went to Red Lobster during Lent because I actually haven't. I'm just saying that I think it is weird that there is such a huge loophole that someone could actually pig out at Red Lobster and still not have broken the Friday abstinence.
Sorry I'm too lazy and pressed for time to deeply review this entire thread, but I can't imagine going to Red Lobster and obtaining a Lenten meal applying the rules as I always have. Perhaps I am too legalistic myself but even pigging out on a bowl of plain rice would violate fasting spirit, much less trying to apply the rules in a Red Lobster where to lobster may be Lenten (it is not to the Coptics, IIRC) but plain lobster is a waste and unappetizing as well.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2011, 10:15:21 AM »

I think one of the things that is not good about the Orthodox fast is the legalistic and inordinate attention paid by so many to ALL those lovely tasty and expensive substitutes one can use to hold to the letter of the law but not its spirit.
I think this is true with the meat abstinence in our Church too. I think it is kind of strange that I could technically go to Red Lobster and have lobster tail, scallops, shrimp scampi, etc. and not be breaking my meat abstinence on a Friday during Lent.


The rules give you a minimum obligation. No one prevents you from doing more than the minimum.  
Right, I know, and I'm not saying I have ever actually went to Red Lobster during Lent because I actually haven't. I'm just saying that I think it is weird that there is such a huge loophole that someone could actually pig out at Red Lobster and still not have broken the Friday abstinence.
Sorry I'm too lazy and pressed for time to deeply review this entire thread, but I can't imagine going to Red Lobster and obtaining a Lenten meal applying the rules as I always have. Perhaps I am too legalistic myself but even pigging out on a bowl of plain rice would violate fasting spirit, much less trying to apply the rules in a Red Lobster where to lobster may be Lenten (it is not to the Coptics, IIRC) but plain lobster is a waste and unappetizing as well.

Plain lobster is exquisite.  If one can obtain it without excessive cost then it is a great boon to the fast.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 10:15:53 AM by elijahmaria » Logged

Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2011, 12:05:19 PM »

I think one of the things that is not good about the Orthodox fast is the legalistic and inordinate attention paid by so many to ALL those lovely tasty and expensive substitutes one can use to hold to the letter of the law but not its spirit.
I think this is true with the meat abstinence in our Church too. I think it is kind of strange that I could technically go to Red Lobster and have lobster tail, scallops, shrimp scampi, etc. and not be breaking my meat abstinence on a Friday during Lent.
The rules give you a minimum obligation. No one prevents you from doing more than the minimum. 
Right, I know, and I'm not saying I have ever actually went to Red Lobster during Lent because I actually haven't. I'm just saying that I think it is weird that there is such a huge loophole that someone could actually pig out at Red Lobster and still not have broken the Friday abstinence.
I guess the idea is not to look for too many loopholes, but to act in the spirit of the law.
Of course, I agree with you. However, I don't think it would hurt for our Church to tighten the abstinence and fasting rule a bit for those who perhaps are struggling more in that area.
Logged
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,748



« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2011, 12:06:50 PM »

Nothing wrong with a plate of the poor man's lobster...Louisiana style crawdads
Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2011, 12:15:02 PM »

Nothing wrong with a plate of the poor man's lobster...Louisiana style crawdads
I suppose, to an extent, there is no one-size-fits-all when it comes to fasting. I mean, if crawfish is like someone's absolute favorite dish then they should probably abstain from it during penitential times. For me, it seems like there is a lot of seafood I probably should not eat during Lent because of how much I love seafood. My best bet is to stick with plain fish or just go vegetarian on those days.
Logged
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2011, 04:49:53 PM »

If anything the majority of EO's might mitigate these fast officially in the near future (Considering the vast majority of EO's have ceased to regularly observe them).

Not gonna happen.  

Quote
Although some might consider it minimalism, it makes for more sense to have fasting rules which, although simpler are more doable for people in this day and age then it is to cling to antiquated and medevil rules which are unrealistic and overly Platonic.

There's nothing unrealistic about the Orthodox fasting rules- some people keep the fast rules quite well. For the rest of us, the challenge is humbling and the struggle can be fruitful. There's no struggle in eating fish on Fridays.  

As for "medieval"... modernity leaves us with even fewer excuses from fasting than our medieval forebears, with the many varied, wholesome, and delicious fast-friendly ingredients readily available to us.

As for "overly Platonic"... do you have any idea what you're talking about?

Yes, I wouldn't have said "overly Platonic" if I didn't know what I was talking about.  

I'm sure there are some OC's who devoutly observe the rigorous fasting rules, it's just that they are a small minority compared to the majority who don't keep them.

Would not it be better to just mitigate the fasting rules of your Church to something that's more realistic and doable for those alive today instead of clinging to something that was institute in a different time and a different world?
Laugh if you will at my RCC's weak fasting and abstinence rules, but at least the majority of our faithful can comply with them without disrupting their natural lives to any great degree. They aren't easy to achieve as you may think so either.  On Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, I am usually starved by midnight after only being allowed one full meal and two collations.  It's not an easy task to master for us who live in a world which does not emphasis any sort of self denial.  Heaven only knows that I've almost been tempted to break under the strain of our RC Lenten fast, but thankfully I always managed to hold off on the hot dogs till after midnight.

One of the main points of fasting is to disrupt our culinary lives to a great degree.  I am a firm believer that if you can't eat a vegan meal twice a week, barring medical issues, there really is something wrong with you and, God forgive me, you (which let me be clear I'm using in the most general sense) are lazy, selfish fool who can't be bothered to exert a little effort for the sake of bringing your body in line with your soul.



Well, that's your opinion.  My Church thinks and teaches otherwise.  The Vatican believes that by mitigating the fasting rules, more people will be able to follow them.  Of course you can do more if you wish, but that's something that's entirely on your plate.  The RCC doesn't force any type of spiritual progression onto her members.  We believe in free will and any type of spiritual development on the part of an individual must come from within them and not due to forced coercion or fear of damnation for not having done so.

Also I would seriously have to argue about the healthiness of keeping such severe and rigorous fasting as perscribed by Orthodoxy.  Modern science tells us that the human body needs the proteins that such foods as meats, fish, and dairy products give us on a regular basis.  Is it right then to deprive ourselves and especially our children of these vital nutrients because of an attempt to cling to an antiquated way of spiritual development that some people came up with in the first millennium?  Look at the so called "Vegans".  They are known to suffer from all kinds of deficiencies and malnutrition due to their supposedly health lifestyle.  Is this what we want for ourselves?

I understand the attachment of some to fasting and its supposed benefits.  I just can't help but feel that the type of fasting and self denial that is proscribed by the OC is not healthy for a normal human being to endure.  My Church obviously feels the same way since she long ago did away with such rigorous style of self discipline as the ancient fasting rules were. 
Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,481


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2011, 05:02:51 PM »

If anything the majority of EO's might mitigate these fast officially in the near future (Considering the vast majority of EO's have ceased to regularly observe them).

Not gonna happen.  

Quote
Although some might consider it minimalism, it makes for more sense to have fasting rules which, although simpler are more doable for people in this day and age then it is to cling to antiquated and medevil rules which are unrealistic and overly Platonic.

There's nothing unrealistic about the Orthodox fasting rules- some people keep the fast rules quite well. For the rest of us, the challenge is humbling and the struggle can be fruitful. There's no struggle in eating fish on Fridays.  

As for "medieval"... modernity leaves us with even fewer excuses from fasting than our medieval forebears, with the many varied, wholesome, and delicious fast-friendly ingredients readily available to us.

As for "overly Platonic"... do you have any idea what you're talking about?

Yes, I wouldn't have said "overly Platonic" if I didn't know what I was talking about.  

I'm sure there are some OC's who devoutly observe the rigorous fasting rules, it's just that they are a small minority compared to the majority who don't keep them.

Would not it be better to just mitigate the fasting rules of your Church to something that's more realistic and doable for those alive today instead of clinging to something that was institute in a different time and a different world?
Laugh if you will at my RCC's weak fasting and abstinence rules, but at least the majority of our faithful can comply with them without disrupting their natural lives to any great degree. They aren't easy to achieve as you may think so either.  On Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, I am usually starved by midnight after only being allowed one full meal and two collations.  It's not an easy task to master for us who live in a world which does not emphasis any sort of self denial.  Heaven only knows that I've almost been tempted to break under the strain of our RC Lenten fast, but thankfully I always managed to hold off on the hot dogs till after midnight.

One of the main points of fasting is to disrupt our culinary lives to a great degree.  I am a firm believer that if you can't eat a vegan meal twice a week, barring medical issues, there really is something wrong with you and, God forgive me, you (which let me be clear I'm using in the most general sense) are lazy, selfish fool who can't be bothered to exert a little effort for the sake of bringing your body in line with your soul.



Well, that's your opinion.  My Church thinks and teaches otherwise.  The Vatican believes that by mitigating the fasting rules, more people will be able to follow them.  Of course you can do more if you wish, but that's something that's entirely on your plate.  The RCC doesn't force any type of spiritual progression onto her members.  We believe in free will and any type of spiritual development on the part of an individual must come from within them and not due to forced coercion or fear of damnation for not having done so.

Really?  It's still technically a mortal sin to not do some sort of asectic fast on Fridays.  Unconfessed mortal sin leaves one soul in danger of damnation.

Quote
Also I would seriously have to argue about the healthiness of keeping such severe and rigorous fasting as perscribed by Orthodoxy.  Modern science tells us that the human body needs the proteins that such foods as meats, fish, and dairy products give us on a regular basis.  Is it right then to deprive ourselves and especially our children of these vital nutrients because of an attempt to cling to an antiquated way of spiritual development that some people came up with in the first millennium?  Look at the so called "Vegans".  They are known to suffer from all kinds of deficiencies and malnutrition due to their supposedly health lifestyle.  Is this what we want for ourselves?

I understand the attachment of some to fasting and its supposed benefits.  I just can't help but feel that the type of fasting and self denial that is proscribed by the OC is not healthy for a normal human being to endure.  My Church obviously feels the same way since she long ago did away with such rigorous style of self discipline as the ancient fasting rules were.  


Yep, all these successful athletes (these ones, too...including a 4-time Mr. Universe!) suffer from all sorts of deficiencies and malnutrition.

There are far more omnivores who suffer from far more deficiencies and diet-related illnesses than vegans and vegetarians.  If you suffer from malnutrition from a vegan diet, you're simply doing it wrong.  And that's on the person, not on the diet itself.

Nice try, but, once again, an EPIC FAIL.

« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 05:05:47 PM by Schultz » Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2011, 05:06:17 PM »

Normal fasting does not put people's health at risk, Robb. That is silly. People with much poorer nutrition have fasted more strictly than many do today. The monks on Mt Athos don't seem to be dropping dead over it.

The protein thing is overblown. We don't need as much protein as people seem to think we do, unless we're pro athletes or something. And there is protein in beans, which are eaten abundantly during fasts.

With obesity an epidemic these days I don't think fasting normally is going to kill anyone. Silly talk.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 05:09:31 PM by bogdan » Logged
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2011, 05:30:45 PM »

Normal fasting does not put people's health at risk, Robb. That is silly. People with much poorer nutrition have fasted more strictly than many do today. The monks on Mt Athos don't seem to be dropping dead over it.

The protein thing is overblown. We don't need as much protein as people seem to think we do, unless we're pro athletes or something. And there is protein in beans, which are eaten abundantly during fasts.

With obesity an epidemic these days I don't think fasting normally is going to kill anyone. Silly talk.

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time buying into the idea of abstaining from most of the major food groups for around half the year is a healthy way to live.  I'm especially Leary of having children do such things due to the unhealthy way that it could stunt growth.  

Also, I'm not sure about RC's still required to do some type of "ascetic" fasting on Fridays.  I've heard such drivel pedaled around (Mostly by right wing RC's over the year's).  However as far as I know the U.S. bishops dispensed all Catholics from abstaining form meat on Fridays and only recommended that they replace it with some type of penance (Which can be somethings simple as saying a prayer).

When I was OC, the thing that I struggled with the most was fasting (Which I never really even tried to practice).  I wasn't raised on self denial at all.  My parents pretty much said  "Hey, your hungry then eat,or tired then sleep".  Most OC priest I confessed to didn't give me a hard time about it.  They would just say "Do the best you can" (Which I took for code to mean "don't worry about it").  The only priest to give me trouble about it was a Serb one who I confessed to not fasting on Great Friday.  He screeched at me "you didn't fast on the holiest day of the year" to which I replied "no".  He then refused to commune me until the following week because of it.  It was then that I really first realized that Orthodoxy was kind of a crazy strict religion and I seriously started debating with myself about returning to the RCC.

That's one of the things that I like best about Catholicism.  It's a pretty easy religion.  The Church practically goes out of it's way to accommodate her faithful by not requiring too much of them.  That's the way I like things.  Nice and easy.  
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 05:32:42 PM by Robb » Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2011, 05:36:47 PM »

If anything the majority of EO's might mitigate these fast officially in the near future (Considering the vast majority of EO's have ceased to regularly observe them).

Not gonna happen.  

Quote
Although some might consider it minimalism, it makes for more sense to have fasting rules which, although simpler are more doable for people in this day and age then it is to cling to antiquated and medevil rules which are unrealistic and overly Platonic.

There's nothing unrealistic about the Orthodox fasting rules- some people keep the fast rules quite well. For the rest of us, the challenge is humbling and the struggle can be fruitful. There's no struggle in eating fish on Fridays.  

As for "medieval"... modernity leaves us with even fewer excuses from fasting than our medieval forebears, with the many varied, wholesome, and delicious fast-friendly ingredients readily available to us.

As for "overly Platonic"... do you have any idea what you're talking about?

Yes, I wouldn't have said "overly Platonic" if I didn't know what I was talking about.  

I'm sure there are some OC's who devoutly observe the rigorous fasting rules, it's just that they are a small minority compared to the majority who don't keep them.

Would not it be better to just mitigate the fasting rules of your Church to something that's more realistic and doable for those alive today instead of clinging to something that was institute in a different time and a different world?
Laugh if you will at my RCC's weak fasting and abstinence rules, but at least the majority of our faithful can comply with them without disrupting their natural lives to any great degree. They aren't easy to achieve as you may think so either.  On Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, I am usually starved by midnight after only being allowed one full meal and two collations.  It's not an easy task to master for us who live in a world which does not emphasis any sort of self denial.  Heaven only knows that I've almost been tempted to break under the strain of our RC Lenten fast, but thankfully I always managed to hold off on the hot dogs till after midnight.

One of the main points of fasting is to disrupt our culinary lives to a great degree.  I am a firm believer that if you can't eat a vegan meal twice a week, barring medical issues, there really is something wrong with you and, God forgive me, you (which let me be clear I'm using in the most general sense) are lazy, selfish fool who can't be bothered to exert a little effort for the sake of bringing your body in line with your soul.



Well, that's your opinion.  My Church thinks and teaches otherwise.  The Vatican believes that by mitigating the fasting rules, more people will be able to follow them.  Of course you can do more if you wish, but that's something that's entirely on your plate.  The RCC doesn't force any type of spiritual progression onto her members.  We believe in free will and any type of spiritual development on the part of an individual must come from within them and not due to forced coercion or fear of damnation for not having done so.

Really?  It's still technically a mortal sin to not do some sort of asectic fast on Fridays.  Unconfessed mortal sin leaves one soul in danger of damnation.

Quote
Also I would seriously have to argue about the healthiness of keeping such severe and rigorous fasting as perscribed by Orthodoxy.  Modern science tells us that the human body needs the proteins that such foods as meats, fish, and dairy products give us on a regular basis.  Is it right then to deprive ourselves and especially our children of these vital nutrients because of an attempt to cling to an antiquated way of spiritual development that some people came up with in the first millennium?  Look at the so called "Vegans".  They are known to suffer from all kinds of deficiencies and malnutrition due to their supposedly health lifestyle.  Is this what we want for ourselves?

I understand the attachment of some to fasting and its supposed benefits.  I just can't help but feel that the type of fasting and self denial that is proscribed by the OC is not healthy for a normal human being to endure.  My Church obviously feels the same way since she long ago did away with such rigorous style of self discipline as the ancient fasting rules were.  


Yep, all these successful athletes (these ones, too...including a 4-time Mr. Universe!) suffer from all sorts of deficiencies and malnutrition.

There are far more omnivores who suffer from far more deficiencies and diet-related illnesses than vegans and vegetarians.  If you suffer from malnutrition from a vegan diet, you're simply doing it wrong.  And that's on the person, not on the diet itself.

Nice try, but, once again, an EPIC FAIL.



Why should I believe you.  Your obviouisly junked up in support of your religion so your going to try and give me all kinds of supposed "facts' in order to support what your claiming.  I'd rather use my God given reason to deduce that abstaining from most of the major food groups for half the year is unhealthy for a person to do.  Believe what you will, but this sounds much more realsitic to me then the evidence youve cited.
Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2011, 05:44:34 PM »

You've never really fasted. You took a priest's helpful advice to be a total dismissal of fasting ("do your best" does not mean "don't try", by the way). And yet you talk down to us about how dangerous and legalistic it is. You have no idea what you're talking about.

I second Schultz's "epic fail."
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 05:48:35 PM by bogdan » Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,130


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2011, 07:08:18 PM »

You've never really fasted. You took a priest's helpful advice to be a total dismissal of fasting ("do your best" does not mean "don't try", by the way). And yet you talk down to us about how dangerous and legalistic it is. You have no idea what you're talking about.

I second Schultz's "epic fail."

I guess St. John the Forerunner (the Baptist) was wrong to fast on locusts and wild honey. :rolls eyes:

And then Christ went into the desert and fasted for 40 days. I wonder what Christ ate?

Since we are the disciples of Christ, surely we could and should imitate Christ and fast as the Church prescribes.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 07:09:22 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2011, 07:25:40 PM »

I'll be a devil's advocate.

I don't think he ever said fasting was wrong (though he got close with mentioning health concerns). However, he seemed to mostly be saying he doesn't think it's necessary to fast.

What would your responses be?
Logged


I'm going to need this.
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,130


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2011, 08:01:05 PM »

I'll be a devil's advocate.

I don't think he ever said fasting was wrong (though he got close with mentioning health concerns). However, he seemed to mostly be saying he doesn't think it's necessary to fast.

What would your responses be?

Christ's words....

"When you fast" nor IF you fast.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2011, 08:17:43 PM »

I'll be a devil's advocate.

I don't think he ever said fasting was wrong (though he got close with mentioning health concerns). However, he seemed to mostly be saying he doesn't think it's necessary to fast.

What would your responses be?
Christ says to fast. The Apostles say to fast. The Church says to fast—and has historically told us how to do so (namely Wed. & Fri., animal products, etc). It doesn't matter what Robb thinks about it.

There is a monumental difference between trying and failing, and not trying at all. That is THE difference. Christians aren't perfect—we are striving towards perfection. But it seems Robb would rather say, "Ho hum, I'm not perfect, so I'll just do whatever I want."
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 08:23:46 PM by bogdan » Logged
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2011, 08:28:44 PM »

I'll be a devil's advocate.

I don't think he ever said fasting was wrong (though he got close with mentioning health concerns). However, he seemed to mostly be saying he doesn't think it's necessary to fast.

What would your responses be?

Christ's words....

"When you fast" nor IF you fast.

I follow the perscrip ed fast of my Church and take the counsel given to me by my priest on this matter.  Although I may not sound like it, in the past I have suffered terribly from overscrupulousity which almost caused me to have a nervous breakdown.  I talked to a number of priest who all told me what I had to and didn't have to do and this was a big relief to me.  I'm sorry if my struggles with these issues is a cause for ridicule or scorn to some here.

I don't see how my following what my Church proscribes is wrong for me.  It is a pity and true offense to ecumenism and the reunion of Churches that you Orthodox always insist that your way of doing things is the ONLY way to travel down the path to glory and that the disciplines and culture of other Christian Churches is somehow wrong or offensive.  Most of your own people don't follow any type of fasting or abstinence, at least my RC's observe our small disciplines, even if they aren't very religious.  Even the EC's have taken a realistic approach to this matter and severely mitigated their fasting disciplines in order to make them more realistic and doable for their faithful (Many OC priest do this to with individual penitents, but they guess it with the mask of "economia").

I love and have great respect for you EO's and understand what you wish to option from these observances, but sadly the more and more I observe your attitudes towards life and human reason, I am somewhat convinced of the words of our late, great Blessed archbishop Aloysius Viktor Stepinac said in regards to the relationship between his Catholic Croatian people and the Orthodox Serbs of the time:
"All in all, Croats and Serbs are of two worlds, north pole and south pole, never will they be able to get together unless by a miracle of God. The Schism is the greatest curse in Europe, almost greater than Protestantism. Here there is no moral, no principles, no truth, no justice, no honesty."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Stepinac
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 08:36:23 PM by Robb » Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2011, 08:33:14 PM »

I'll be a devil's advocate.

I don't think he ever said fasting was wrong (though he got close with mentioning health concerns). However, he seemed to mostly be saying he doesn't think it's necessary to fast.

What would your responses be?

No I didn't say that all fasting is wrong, I just think that your Churches concept of fasting is wrong for today's world (Apparently so do the vast majority of your faithful who do not practice it at all). 

I think that some small forms of self denial (Like no meat on certain days) Is a good and Christian thing to master, but not in the extreme and antiquated form that the EO's cling to officially.  I just follow what my Church perscrip ed and have therefore, by doing so reached the level of perfection on this matter that is required for all pious and good Catholic faithful.  This is what I have been told and this is what I believe.
Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,130


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2011, 08:35:56 PM »

I'll be a devil's advocate.

I don't think he ever said fasting was wrong (though he got close with mentioning health concerns). However, he seemed to mostly be saying he doesn't think it's necessary to fast.

What would your responses be?

Christ's words....

"When you fast" nor IF you fast.

I follow the perscrip ed fast of my Church and take the counsel given to me by my priest on this matter.  Although I may not sound like it, in the past I have suffered terribly from overscrupulousity which almost caused me to have a nervous breakdown.  I talked to a number of priest who all told me what I had to and didn't have to do and this was a big relief to me.  I'm sorry if my struggles with these issues is a cause for ridicule or scorn to some here.

I don't see how my following what my Church proscribes is wrong for me.  It is a pity and true offense to ecumenism and the reunion of Churches that you Orthodox always insist that your way of doing things is the ONLY way to travel down the path to glory and that the disciplines and culture of other Christian Churches is somehow wrong or offensive.  Most of your own people don't follow any type of fasting or abstinence, at least my RC's observe our small disciplines, even if they aren't very religious.  Even the EC's have taken  realistic approach to this matter and severely mitigated their fasting disciplines in order to make them more realistic and doable for their faithful (Many OC priest do this to with individual penitents, but they guess it with the mask of "economia").

I love and have great respect for you EO's and understand what you wish to option from these observances, but sadly the more and more I observe your attitudes towards life and human reason, I am somewhat convinced of the words of our late, great Blessed archbishop Aloysius Viktor Stepinac said in regards to the relationship between his Catholic Croatian people and the Orthodox Serbs of the time:
"All in all, Croats and Serbs are of two worlds, north pole and south pole, never will they be able to get together unless by a miracle of God. The Schism is the greatest curse in Europe, almost greater than Protestantism. Here there is no moral, no principles, no truth, no justice, no honesty."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Stepinac

We fast to the best of our ability and with our Priest's blessing.
This is true in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Even in the monastery, there are probably few monks who observe the strict monastic fast 100 percent of the time.
Occasionally monks get sick and have to be given a blessing to lessen the severity of the fast.

Even St. Seraphim of Sarov would give a blessing to his nuns to put a piece of bread (antidoron) under their pillows just in case they needed it. In his day, people did suffer from hypoglycemia.


We must try our best, and not look at our neighbor's plate of food or underneath their pillows or beds. Smiley
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 08:41:25 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2011, 08:38:21 PM »

Normal fasting does not put people's health at risk, Robb. That is silly. People with much poorer nutrition have fasted more strictly than many do today. The monks on Mt Athos don't seem to be dropping dead over it.

The protein thing is overblown. We don't need as much protein as people seem to think we do, unless we're pro athletes or something. And there is protein in beans, which are eaten abundantly during fasts.

With obesity an epidemic these days I don't think fasting normally is going to kill anyone. Silly talk.

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time buying into the idea of abstaining from most of the major food groups for around half the year is a healthy way to live.  I'm especially Leary of having children do such things due to the unhealthy way that it could stunt growth.  

Also, I'm not sure about RC's still required to do some type of "ascetic" fasting on Fridays.  I've heard such drivel pedaled around (Mostly by right wing RC's over the year's).  However as far as I know the U.S. bishops dispensed all Catholics from abstaining form meat on Fridays and only recommended required that they replace it with some type of penance (Which can be somethings simple as saying a prayer).

When I was OC, the thing that I struggled with the most was fasting (Which I never really even tried to practice).  I wasn't raised on self denial at all.  My parents pretty much said  "Hey, your hungry then eat,or tired then sleep".  Most OC priest I confessed to didn't give me a hard time about it.  They would just say "Do the best you can" (Which I took for code to mean "don't worry about it").  The only priest to give me trouble about it was a Serb one who I confessed to not fasting on Great Friday.  He screeched at me "you didn't fast on the holiest day of the year" to which I replied "no".  He then refused to commune me until the following week because of it.  It was then that I really first realized that Orthodoxy was kind of a crazy strict religion and I seriously started debating with myself about returning to the RCC.

That's one of the things that I like best about Catholicism.  It's a pretty easy religion.  The Church practically goes out of it's way to accommodate her faithful by not requiring too much of them.  That's the way I like things.  Nice and easy.  

Boy, you are not doing our side any favors.

Catholicism is not "easy" (defined as not requiring much of the faithful), nor should it be.

Yes, people are imperfect, and Mother Church is understanding and merciful with human weakness and failings. But casual laxity, "nice and easy," no. As CS Lewis said, "God is easy to please, but hard to satisfy."

As for our fasting discipline, it's the bare minimum required. We are encouraged to do more. To each his own, of course---my penances are different than others. But penance is an inextricable part of the Christian life.

« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 08:42:16 PM by lubeltri » Logged
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2011, 08:41:30 PM »

I'll be a devil's advocate.

I don't think he ever said fasting was wrong (though he got close with mentioning health concerns). However, he seemed to mostly be saying he doesn't think it's necessary to fast.

What would your responses be?

Christ's words....

"When you fast" nor IF you fast.

I follow the perscrip ed fast of my Church and take the counsel given to me by my priest on this matter. Although I may not sound like it, in the past I have suffered terribly from overscrupulousity which almost caused me to have a nervous breakdown.  I talked to a number of priest who all told me what I had to and didn't have to do and this was a big relief to me. I'm sorry if my struggles with these issues is a cause for ridicule or scorn to some here.

I don't see how my following what my Church proscribes is wrong for me. IT is a pity and true offense to ecumenism and the reunion of Churches that you Orthodox always insist that your way of doing things is the ONLY way to travel down the path to glory and that the disciplines and culture of other Christian Churches is somehow wrong or offensive. Most of your own people don't follow any type of fasting or abstinence, at least my RC's observe our small disciplines, even if they aren't very religious.  Even the EC's have taken  realistic approach to this matter and severely mitigated their fasting disciplines in order to make them more realistic and doable for their faithful (Many OC priest do this to with individual penitents, but they guess it with the mask of "economia").

I love and have great respect for you EO's and understand what you wish to option from these observances, but sadly the more and more I observe your attitudes towards life and human reason, I am somewhat convinced of the words of our late, great Blessed archbishop Aloysius Viktor Stepinac said in regards to the relationship between his Catholic Croatian people and the Orthodox Serbs of the time:
"All in all, Croats and Serbs are of two worlds, north pole and south pole, never will they be able to get together unless by a miracle of God. The Schism is the greatest curse in Europe, almost greater than Protestantism. Here there is no moral, no principles, no truth, no justice, no honesty."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Stepinac

We fast to the best of our ability and with our Priest's blessing.
This is true in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Even in the monastery, there are probably few monks who observe the strict monastic fast 100 percent of the time.
Occasionally monks get sick and have to be given a blessing to lessen the severity of the fast.

We must try our best, and not look at our neighbor's plate of food.

Thank you for these words.  I'm sorry if I sound raving in some of these post, but as I mentioned my mind is not in the right place on matters that sound too legalistic or narrow to me.  I was deeply hurt some years ago by my involvement in a cult like religious group and this has caused me no small amount of stress and mental anxiety.  I apologize for coming off as rude, sarcastic, or offensive to anyone.  I definitely have issues here which I won't deny, so it's probably best for me to avoid further discussing this topic.
Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,130


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2011, 08:42:43 PM »

I'll be a devil's advocate.

I don't think he ever said fasting was wrong (though he got close with mentioning health concerns). However, he seemed to mostly be saying he doesn't think it's necessary to fast.

What would your responses be?

Christ's words....

"When you fast" nor IF you fast.

I follow the perscrip ed fast of my Church and take the counsel given to me by my priest on this matter. Although I may not sound like it, in the past I have suffered terribly from overscrupulousity which almost caused me to have a nervous breakdown.  I talked to a number of priest who all told me what I had to and didn't have to do and this was a big relief to me. I'm sorry if my struggles with these issues is a cause for ridicule or scorn to some here.

I don't see how my following what my Church proscribes is wrong for me. IT is a pity and true offense to ecumenism and the reunion of Churches that you Orthodox always insist that your way of doing things is the ONLY way to travel down the path to glory and that the disciplines and culture of other Christian Churches is somehow wrong or offensive. Most of your own people don't follow any type of fasting or abstinence, at least my RC's observe our small disciplines, even if they aren't very religious.  Even the EC's have taken  realistic approach to this matter and severely mitigated their fasting disciplines in order to make them more realistic and doable for their faithful (Many OC priest do this to with individual penitents, but they guess it with the mask of "economia").

I love and have great respect for you EO's and understand what you wish to option from these observances, but sadly the more and more I observe your attitudes towards life and human reason, I am somewhat convinced of the words of our late, great Blessed archbishop Aloysius Viktor Stepinac said in regards to the relationship between his Catholic Croatian people and the Orthodox Serbs of the time:
"All in all, Croats and Serbs are of two worlds, north pole and south pole, never will they be able to get together unless by a miracle of God. The Schism is the greatest curse in Europe, almost greater than Protestantism. Here there is no moral, no principles, no truth, no justice, no honesty."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Stepinac

We fast to the best of our ability and with our Priest's blessing.
This is true in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Even in the monastery, there are probably few monks who observe the strict monastic fast 100 percent of the time.
Occasionally monks get sick and have to be given a blessing to lessen the severity of the fast.

We must try our best, and not look at our neighbor's plate of food.

Thank you for these words.  I'm sorry if I sound raving in some of these post, but as I mentioned my mind is not in the right place on matters that sound too legalistic or narrow to me.  I was deeply hurt some years ago by my involvement in a cult like religious group and this has caused me no small amount of stress and mental anxiety.  I apologize for coming off as rude, sarcastic, or offensive to anyone.  I definitely have issues here which I won't deny, so it's probably best for me to avoid further discussing this topic.

God grant you peace and many years.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2011, 08:44:58 PM »

I'll be a devil's advocate.

I don't think he ever said fasting was wrong (though he got close with mentioning health concerns). However, he seemed to mostly be saying he doesn't think it's necessary to fast.

What would your responses be?

Christ's words....

"When you fast" nor IF you fast.

I follow the perscrip ed fast of my Church and take the counsel given to me by my priest on this matter. Although I may not sound like it, in the past I have suffered terribly from overscrupulousity which almost caused me to have a nervous breakdown.  I talked to a number of priest who all told me what I had to and didn't have to do and this was a big relief to me. I'm sorry if my struggles with these issues is a cause for ridicule or scorn to some here.

I don't see how my following what my Church proscribes is wrong for me. IT is a pity and true offense to ecumenism and the reunion of Churches that you Orthodox always insist that your way of doing things is the ONLY way to travel down the path to glory and that the disciplines and culture of other Christian Churches is somehow wrong or offensive. Most of your own people don't follow any type of fasting or abstinence, at least my RC's observe our small disciplines, even if they aren't very religious.  Even the EC's have taken  realistic approach to this matter and severely mitigated their fasting disciplines in order to make them more realistic and doable for their faithful (Many OC priest do this to with individual penitents, but they guess it with the mask of "economia").

I love and have great respect for you EO's and understand what you wish to option from these observances, but sadly the more and more I observe your attitudes towards life and human reason, I am somewhat convinced of the words of our late, great Blessed archbishop Aloysius Viktor Stepinac said in regards to the relationship between his Catholic Croatian people and the Orthodox Serbs of the time:
"All in all, Croats and Serbs are of two worlds, north pole and south pole, never will they be able to get together unless by a miracle of God. The Schism is the greatest curse in Europe, almost greater than Protestantism. Here there is no moral, no principles, no truth, no justice, no honesty."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Stepinac

We fast to the best of our ability and with our Priest's blessing.
This is true in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Even in the monastery, there are probably few monks who observe the strict monastic fast 100 percent of the time.
Occasionally monks get sick and have to be given a blessing to lessen the severity of the fast.

We must try our best, and not look at our neighbor's plate of food.

Thank you for these words.  I'm sorry if I sound raving in some of these post, but as I mentioned my mind is not in the right place on matters that sound too legalistic or narrow to me.  I was deeply hurt some years ago by my involvement in a cult like religious group and this has caused me no small amount of stress and mental anxiety.  I apologize for coming off as rude, sarcastic, or offensive to anyone.  I definitely have issues here which I won't deny, so it's probably best for me to avoid further discussing this topic.

Thanks as well for these words. Well, it is up to your conscience to decide what sorts of penance you need. No legalism there. And no judging. As Christ said, let us do our penances in secret.
Logged
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2011, 08:46:58 PM »

No I didn't say that all fasting is wrong, I just think that your Churches concept of fasting is wrong for today's world (Apparently so do the vast majority of your faithful who do not practice it at all). 

Sorry, a majority of people breaking the rules isn't grounds to do away with them. We don't make rules for the sake of making rules, but it seems you think this way. The rules are intended for fostering a specific result—a result that may well not occur any other way.

And if you have struggled with scrupulosity, fine. But you are universalizing your particular circumstance. I can show you a hundred saints who were made holy in part through extreme fasting, which the Church does not ask us to do. Not eating meat and dairy twice a week is not extreme.

One modern example is St John of San Francisco, who only ate one small meal every day. And he lived in the modern world, so that demolishes your theory.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 08:47:47 PM by bogdan » Logged
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #43 on: June 05, 2011, 08:48:26 PM »

Normal fasting does not put people's health at risk, Robb. That is silly. People with much poorer nutrition have fasted more strictly than many do today. The monks on Mt Athos don't seem to be dropping dead over it.

The protein thing is overblown. We don't need as much protein as people seem to think we do, unless we're pro athletes or something. And there is protein in beans, which are eaten abundantly during fasts.

With obesity an epidemic these days I don't think fasting normally is going to kill anyone. Silly talk.

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time buying into the idea of abstaining from most of the major food groups for around half the year is a healthy way to live. I'm especially Leary of having children do such things due to the unhealthy way that it could stunt growth.  

Also, I'm not sure about RC's still required to do some type of "ascetic" fasting on Fridays. I've heard such drivel pedaled around (Mostly by right wing RC's over the year's). However as far as I know the U.S. bishops dispensed all Catholics from abstaining form meat on Fridays and only recommended required that they replace it with some type of penance (Which can be somethings simple as saying a prayer).

When I was OC, the thing that I struggled with the most was fasting (Which I never really even tried to practice).  I wasn't raised on self denial at all. My parents pretty much said  "Hey, your hungry then eat,or tired then sleep". Most OC priest I confessed to didn't give me a hard time about it. They would just say "Do the best you can" (Which I took for code to mean "don't worry about it"). The only priest to give me trouble about it was a Serb one who I confessed to not fasting on Great Friday. He screeched at me "you didn't fast on the holiest day of the year" to which I replied "no". He then refused to commune me until the following week because of it.  It was then that I really first realized that Orthodoxy was kind of a crazy strict religion and I seriously started debating with myself about returning to the RCC.

That's one of the things that I like best about Catholicism.  It's a pretty easy religion.  The Church practically goes out of it's way to accommodate her faithful by not requiring too much of them.  That's the way I like things.  Nice and easy.  

Boy, you are not doing our side any favors.

Catholicism is not "easy" (defined as not requiring much of the faithful), nor should it be.



I'm not out to win favors for any side.  I have never heard that a person was required to perform some type of penance if they did not eat meat on Fridays.  I've never heard a real priest (Outside of EWTN) Preach on it, which makes me kind of suspect about it's legitimacy.  I know that some right wing RC's are always trying to find new rules or regulations to try and force on Catholics so that they can slowly but surely force their pseudo Tridentine form of religion down our throats again.  I will ask my parish priest if your statement is true or not, but I highly doubt it.

Also, RC ism is pretty easy, like it or not when compared to other faiths.  We really have dietary laws such as the EO's, Orthodox Jews, or Muslims do.  We do not have that many rules which we must scrupulously follow (Such as making a ha-jib).  We are a far, far more populous everyman type of religion then some would have us think.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 08:50:50 PM by Robb » Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #44 on: June 05, 2011, 08:55:38 PM »

No I didn't say that all fasting is wrong, I just think that your Churches concept of fasting is wrong for today's world (Apparently so do the vast majority of your faithful who do not practice it at all). 

Sorry, a majority of people breaking the rules isn't grounds to do away with them. We don't make rules for the sake of making rules, but it seems you think this way. The rules are intended for fostering a specific result—a result that may well not occur any other way.

And if you have struggled with scrupulosity, fine. But you are universalizing your particular circumstance. I can show you a hundred saints who were made holy in part through extreme fasting, which the Church does not ask us to do. Not eating meat and dairy twice a week is not extreme.

One modern example is St John of San Francisco, who only ate one small meal every day. And he lived in the modern world, so that demolishes your theory.

Well my Church must have thought it was grounds for that.  They did away with the strict, Orthodox style of fasting centuries ago and I highly doubt that they will ever re institute it.  As I also mentioned even the EC's have reduced their fasting requirements, and they are the same thing as you EO's except they follow the Pope.  If you wish to keep your own fast, fine, but don't judge we RC's for keeping ours as our Church proscribes.  If they wanted us to do more then they would tell us to do so.

Also, I have no idea about St John other then he was a noted ascetic and I am definitely not an ascetic nor do I have any desire to be one.  We all walk with God in our own way and do what we can based on who we are, what we are, and where we are.  That's fine with me.
Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
Tags: fasting 
Pages: 1 2 3 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.204 seconds with 72 queries.