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Author Topic: Why is Pride Wrong??  (Read 2339 times) Average Rating: 5
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« on: June 06, 2011, 06:33:02 AM »

How do you avoid this one if you're a confident person and you know what you're good at.

Tell me if i am wrong and why. I think that pride is a good thing (i can't think of another word to replace it) in that you need to feel good about what you do and who you are in life. I don't like it when people are like .... "oh no really it's nothing" when they know they worked hard or they know they did a good job.... that's just lying and it sucks. If you're pleased you did a good job or you know you're good at something then say so. People can see when someone is lying anyhow.

The difference that i make a distinguishment is this.... arrogance.... arrogance is thinking that you are better than other people. Noone is better than anyone else no matter if they are an intellectual genius or a saint or a minging skank.

I would rather have pride than be a liar.
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« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2011, 08:31:37 AM »

Why did Satan fall from grace? Pride in himself.
Why does your word contradict God's? Pride in yourself.

Pride exercises your own God given ability to think and want, but to think in contrast to God and His will. Humility is an act of not allowing your actions to generate a self love greater than God's will.

All sins lead to Pride.
Gluttony - I want more.
Lust - I want her.
Lazy - I don't want to move.
Anger - I don't like it, and he'll hurt.
Envy - I want what he's got.
Greed - I want these, over you.
Pride - I want, and I'm great. I'm a god.

People find themselves in Hell because their wants are always first. You can't be with God, except with God.
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« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2011, 08:43:25 AM »

i have also had problems with this issue.
i used to think i was always wrong and i used to always apologise when it wasn't my fault, and when i learnt to accept myself better, i went to the other extreme and became proud.

it is difficult to keep a balance, but we can do that by remembering 2 things:
1. God loves us so much He suffered personally in order to restore our relationship with Him. we are very valued.
2. we don't deserve this at all because we have sinned and been selfish and turned away from God. we are nothing without our Creator.

so when someone congratulates us for something, we can remember God gave us our abilities and we can praise God and not get proud. similarly when someone congratulates someone else and leaves us out, we can remember that we are nothing without God, and we don't even deserve any good thing. we can smile to ourselves, remembering God loves us anyway, and we can feel good for the other person being congratulated because we can thank God for giving them abilities.

so smile, God loves you   Grin
and you should love others too and not be jealous when they receive praise.
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« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2011, 08:43:53 AM »

How do you avoid this one if you're a confident person and you know what you're good at.

Tell me if i am wrong and why. I think that pride is a good thing (i can't think of another word to replace it) in that you need to feel good about what you do and who you are in life. I don't like it when people are like .... "oh no really it's nothing" when they know they worked hard or they know they did a good job.... that's just lying and it sucks. If you're pleased you did a good job or you know you're good at something then say so. People can see when someone is lying anyhow.

The difference that i make a distinguishment is this.... arrogance.... arrogance is thinking that you are better than other people. Noone is better than anyone else no matter if they are an intellectual genius or a saint or a minging skank.

I would rather have pride than be a liar.

It's not "pride" in the sense that you take care to do a good job, or whatever that's the problem.  It's "pride" in the sense of self-importance, and it takes MANY more forms than just bragging about your accomplishments (the bragging part being the problem).  This same pride makes you get angry at the slightest offense, as if you were so important and the person who caused you offense is so insignificant.  Or lets you end friendships or marriages or whatever over some silly thing.  It's fundamentally a higher distorted view of self and a lower distorted view of your neighbor.

It's fine to want to do a good job and to gratefully accept praise for such.  It's not fine to brag about what a great worker, painter, musician, whatever you are in order to set yourself above your neighbor (or worse, to drag your neighbor down).
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« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2011, 08:46:55 AM »

Even if I give away all my belongings to the poor, and I have enough faith that I'm able to move mountains, and have become knowledgeable in all the ways of theology and spirituality, and practice unceasing prayer to the point that I'm able to pray in my sleep, and accept torture and death rather than deny Christ...even if I do all this and more, I have done nothing more than what was my duty to do, so what's to be proud of?
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« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2011, 09:05:33 AM »

wow, i'm not quite that spiritual yet!  Wink
but well said.
i liked david's comments too, it's important we never make someone look bad just to make ourselves look good.
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« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2011, 09:34:43 AM »

Ok so thats partly my point and theres allot of truth in what you ppl have said.

The people who brag about how hot they are and what they did and where they went that's not what i'm meaning because those ppl are insecure rather then proud. You think??? I do. I think when someone is secure in themself they don't need to brag. When someone knows who they are and what they are capable of then they don't need to pull someone else down or be bitchy.

When i am insecure in a area (used to be about my dyslexia but i am ok with it now) i am most loud abnoxious and strident but only because not of pride but of lack of pride in myself. I worked really hard to figure allot of things out while i was in care and also to build who i am. When your in care you don't know who you are.... other ppl tell you who you are and make all kinds of decisions for you and about your life. It takes allot of hard work to be someone after that. How can i be thankfull to God for that because it was me who did that work and went from a shy person who did not speak and was scared of everything into a confident person who dont take any crud from people and enjoys life and knows what i want in life. How can that be pride and how can you undo that or say it's something it's not??

I agree with David about it being self important that if you come across like as if your the most important person in the place. That's more about attitude though isn't it?? Like i can be proud of myself but still not have a bad attitude and think im all that.... im just like everyone else who works hard at things.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 09:39:30 AM by Poppy » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2011, 09:45:19 AM »

it is difficult to keep a balance, but we can do that by remembering 2 things:
1. God loves us so much He suffered personally in order to restore our relationship with Him. we are very valued.
Then if we are valued then we should have dignity about that

Quote
2. we don't deserve this at all because we have sinned and been selfish and turned away from God. we are nothing without our Creator.
We must deserve it or God wouldn't have give it to us??

_____________________

Also it's about need.... if you are self reliant and secure then you don't keep needing praise or attention from other people so you dont throw a hissyfit when you get left out because you didn't need the praise or attention anyways.
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« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2011, 09:51:34 AM »

We should be self-reliant and secure because of God. GOD made us this way. We are not walking machines of awesomeness because of our own abilities.

I tend to beat myself up over things, so I think that Pride is the source of many, if not all, sins. But Jesus talking about humility should at least be enough that we don't question it. We're supposed to be servants. Even a little pride might prevent us from doing the lowly work that He would want us to do, and it might mean that we keep seeing the splinters in others' eyes while soundly ignoring the planks in our own.
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« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2011, 10:00:27 AM »

ok thanks ismiliora
But now i am confused because ok didn't Jesus have humility??? yes and his humility was about preferring others to yourself romans 2:10. He put down his power and royal position to be a sacrifice that was needed so that was humility. But he never undervalued who he was or what he could do did he??? Tell me if i am wrong because i don't want to read it wrong.

So i'm thinking you can be pleased and happy in who you are and your abilities BUT with humility as well.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 10:00:48 AM by Poppy » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2011, 10:22:24 AM »

It breaks the first commandment, the one against idolatry: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Mankind's fallen state is due to self idolatry, to an inclination to follow our own desires and not the will of God. So pride is the source of all other sins.

To answer your last question: There's a difference between pride and self confidence. Confidence is good. Pride is not.

According to many saints and theologians, the only way to God is through sincere humility. Err on the side of humility.
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« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2011, 10:27:31 AM »

Well, He was GOD.  laugh

This is how I differentiate (possibly wrongly) an arrogant person and a humble person from a person who is down on themselves all the time.

ME: "You are really amazing at _____."
ARROGANT PERSON: "I know, right?"
DEBBIE DOWNER: "No, in fact, I'm horrible at it."
HUMBLE PERSON: "Thank you."

The humble person receives the compliment and probably agrees to some extent, but doesn't spend time acknowledging it or thinking about it. That, in my eyes, is truly the mark of a humble person.

Now of course, I think we need to employ some extent of pride when we are going for a job or something. If I sat there in an interview and said, "Oh, I'm horrible," why would they hire me? But walking in and saying, "This job was absolutely made for me and I will nail every assignment 100% of the time!" can be off-putting as well (depends on the person). The honest assessment of our abilities and the acknowledgment of weaknesses (when asked, of course, haha) is that middle ground yet again.
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« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2011, 11:06:03 AM »

Pride is thinking how well you did something without remembering God (a fault which caused Nebuchadnezzar to lose his mind), humility is remembering that the reason you did it well was by God's blessing. Ecclesiasticus 10:12 backs this up: "The beginning of pride is when one departeth from God, and his heart is turned away from his Maker."

One of my favorite pride verses expresses this well: "From Thee is victory, from Thee is wisdom, and Thine is the glory, and I am Thy servant. Thou hast given me wisdom, and I give thanks to Thee, O Lord of our fathers." (1 Esdras 4:59-60)

I try to remember this verse on the odd occasions when I do something well (victory) or when I say or think something well (wisdom): "Thou hast given me the wisdom/ victory, and I give thanks to Thee, O Lord of our fathers."

The part of the verse which says "and I am Thy servant" also reminds of what Christ said in the Gospel of Luke: "So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do." (Lk. 17:10)
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« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2011, 12:52:51 PM »

Well, He was GOD.  laugh

This is how I differentiate (possibly wrongly) an arrogant person and a humble person from a person who is down on themselves all the time.

ME: "You are really amazing at _____."
ARROGANT PERSON: "I know, right?"
DEBBIE DOWNER: "No, in fact, I'm horrible at it."
HUMBLE PERSON: "Thank you."

The humble person receives the compliment and probably agrees to some extent, but doesn't spend time acknowledging it or thinking about it. That, in my eyes, is truly the mark of a humble person.

Now of course, I think we need to employ some extent of pride when we are going for a job or something. If I sat there in an interview and said, "Oh, I'm horrible," why would they hire me? But walking in and saying, "This job was absolutely made for me and I will nail every assignment 100% of the time!" can be off-putting as well (depends on the person). The honest assessment of our abilities and the acknowledgment of weaknesses (when asked, of course, haha) is that middle ground yet again.

haha... thanks for explaining again!!! I'm clear now.

I think Debbie Downer is fishing lolOl
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« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2011, 12:55:19 PM »

DavidH.... a person who isn't in the church or a believer can't thank God for something God didn't do because they're not belonging to anything. They just did it by themselves. AFTER they convert then yeah i can agree with you that they can thank God for w/eva but not before.
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« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2011, 01:04:11 PM »

it is difficult to keep a balance, but we can do that by remembering 2 things:
1. God loves us so much He suffered personally in order to restore our relationship with Him. we are very valued.
Then if we are valued then we should have dignity about that

Quote
2. we don't deserve this at all because we have sinned and been selfish and turned away from God. we are nothing without our Creator.
We must deserve it or God wouldn't have give it to us??

_____________________

Also it's about need.... if you are self reliant and secure then you don't keep needing praise or attention from other people so you dont throw a hissyfit when you get left out because you didn't need the praise or attention anyways.

I think you have the basic idea.  The issue with pride, IMHO, is not nearly so much self-elevation, but the fact that self-elevation is in reality a denial of the same reality of restored relationship with God in your neighbor.  That's the real issue -- "I'M so important, my neighbor, not so much."  Whereas true confidence would have you act out of your God-granted life and restored communion with Him in service to your neighbor, holding him up instead of yourself.  That it is given to you to perform such a worthy act is the proper elevation of self.  To think it is beneath you denigrates both your neighbor and yourself.

I podcast Saint of the Day, and it is stunning to me how many martyrs and oppressed Saints said at their persecution "thanks be to God that I have been found worthy to suffer for Christ!"
« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 01:04:53 PM by David Garner » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2011, 01:11:52 PM »

Quote
2. we don't deserve this at all because we have sinned and been selfish and turned away from God. we are nothing without our Creator.
We must deserve it or God wouldn't have give it to us??
No, because God is merciful.  Smiley
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« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2011, 03:25:28 PM »

DavidH.... a person who isn't in the church or a believer can't thank God for something God didn't do because they're not belonging to anything. They just did it by themselves. AFTER they convert then yeah i can agree with you that they can thank God for w/eva but not before.

I was answering a question asked by a believer about pride, but I am not sure what you mean about not thanking God for s.t. He did not do- I believe God's gifts and help work in us all whether we recognize His grace or not.

Of course, a believer has more ready access to God's grace since he is more aware of what is going on spiritually but even an ardent atheist's intelligence and skills are still gifts from God even if he is misusing them.

Did I misunderstand your point?
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« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2011, 03:33:24 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

There is nothing wrong with self-confidence so long as it is blended wisely with humility and grace.  We must be EVER MINDFUL of our standing before God, that is it as John the Baptist said, "There is nothing a man has which he did not receive from above."

If we constantly acknowledge that our lives, our faculties, our abilities, our talents, our successes, come from God Almighty and our cooperation with Him, then we are not being prideful.

Pride is not a synonym of confidence.  Confidence can be pride, but pride is not always confidence.  Pride is when ones assert that all they have or are is from and of themselves and their own innate abilities.  Pride is to say that ones can do it all alone, without help from either humans or God. This is also silly, because we live in a human society, and all we have we receive as a result of our interactions with other humans.  There is not a single thing in human life which a person can obtain without the involvement of some other human being. 

So pride is twofold disregard of God and disrespect of the common love and brotherhood of humanity. Pride is the unfortunate belief in exaggerated self-importance.  The reality is that whoever we are, we are never really ever that important, and we can ALWAYS be replaced or at least our loss accepted by even those who love us.  The day will carry on as ever when we are gone..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2011, 04:09:28 PM »

DavidH.... a person who isn't in the church or a believer can't thank God for something God didn't do because they're not belonging to anything. They just did it by themselves. AFTER they convert then yeah i can agree with you that they can thank God for w/eva but not before.

I was answering a question asked by a believer about pride, but I am not sure what you mean about not thanking God for s.t. He did not do- I believe God's gifts and help work in us all whether we recognize His grace or not.

Of course, a believer has more ready access to God's grace since he is more aware of what is going on spiritually but even an ardent atheist's intelligence and skills are still gifts from God even if he is misusing them.

Did I misunderstand your point?
Well im not a believer (if believer means what it does in the bible) im only inquiring into Christianity to be really open about it. But im not agnostic any more as i do believe that a superior being (God) exists. God of the bible i am just still learning about.

No you got my point and answered it better then i asked it!!! (which isn't hard) haha... Thanks
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« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2011, 08:58:41 PM »

Some extracts from The Sayings of the Desert Fathers:

42. Abba Sisoes said, 'Let yourself be despised, cast your own will behind your back, and you will be free from care and at peace.'

7. Abba Anthony said, 'I saw the snares that the enemy spreads out over the world and I said groaning, "What can get through from such snares?" Then I heard a voice saying to me, "Humility."'

2. He (Abba James) warned anyone who receives praise to think of his sins and realize that he does not deserve what has been said of him.

55. He (Abba Poemen) also said, 'As the old men were sitting at a meal one day, Abba Alonius got up to serve and when they saw that, they praised him. But he answered absolutely nothing. So one of them said to him privately, "Why don't you answer the old men who are complimenting you?" Abba Alonius said to him, "If I were to reply to them I should be accepting their praises."'

The Desert Fathers, while not always in agreement, were absolutely unequivocal on the point of pride, even in the tiniest degree. There is no room for pride because Christians endeavor to follow Christ in taking not only our own sins but the sins of mankind on our backs and as our personal responsibility. You can't have a straight back if you're bearing a Cross. Furthermore, the meek and humble are exalted because only they are capable of loving the world. Pride creates envy, and you can't love your neighbor much less your enemy if you're envious of them, nor can you if you are restricted to egotistical self-love.

I would modify Azurestone's post

All sins lead to Pride.

And say that Pride leads to all sins. Pride is the starting point.
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« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2011, 01:38:11 PM »

I would modify Azurestone's post

All sins lead to Pride.

And say that Pride leads to all sins. Pride is the starting point.

Correct. I intended it to be "all sin can be traced to Pride", not "all sin causes pride".
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« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2011, 04:59:03 PM »

yea! desert fathers! my favourite quotes, thanks for those.
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« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2011, 05:33:08 PM »

I want to thank you all for this great discussion, this is what I hoped we would be able to offer our inquirers and newly converted. I have shared this with my 15 y.o. grandson and he is greatly edified by the high level of information, courtesy, and resources that you have provided. Kudos to you all!

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