Dangerous Music?

[Andrew Crook]

Hey all,

  what kinds of music are spiritually dangerous?  I've already seen that rap & hip hop can be, but what about other forms..?  Like among what's "mainstream" these days.. with all of the Pop music out there, and the different genres..

I hope this is in the right thread..!  If not, I apologize! 

[orthonorm]

Whatever my neighbors are listening to past 12AM. After 3AM it takes on possible dangers of a physical nature.

[CRCulver]

  what kinds of music are spiritually dangerous? 

This is something you must talk with your spiritual father about. The Orthodox Church does not universally consider certain forms of art positive and others "spiritually dangerous". If your spiritual father feels that a certain style of music is causing you spiritual harm, then he may steer you away from it, but it has no bearing on other Orthodox Christians.

[Poppy]

That.... is a seriously good answer!!!

[Andrew Crook]

Ah okay CRC thanks, so there is no one "rule" or standard.  I guess I'll just wait until my parish gets a priest/spiritual father then..

[Opus118]

I don't know of any official stance. However, despite that, you should use your common sense. To condone the music also condones the actions and/or beliefs of the the performer and/or the composer of a musical piece. You may be impervious to the message, but the lack of criticism may lead the less knowledgeable astray.

I believe my avatar would like to include anything by Richard Wagner in the genre of classical music in this regard. I personally avoid anything by Richard Wagner with the exception of Apocalypse Now (emphasizing hubris) and Bugs Bunny cartoons (emphasizing the looney tunes' critique of his extremely ponderous idiotic music).

Hey all,

  what kinds of music are spiritually dangerous?  I've already seen that rap & hip hop can be, but what about other forms..?  Like among what's "mainstream" these days.. with all of the Pop music out there, and the different genres..

I hope this is in the right thread..!  If not, I apologize! 

[orthonorm]

I don't know of any official stance. However, despite that, you should use your common sense. To condone the music also condones the actions and/or beliefs of the the performer and/or the composer of a musical piece. You may be impervious to the message, but the lack of criticism may lead the less knowledgeable astray.

I believe my avatar would like to include anything by Richard Wagner in the genre of classical music in this regard. I personally avoid anything by Richard Wagner with the exception of Apocalypse Now (emphasizing hubris) and Bugs Bunny cartoons (emphasizing the looney tunes' critique of his extremely ponderous idiotic music).

 

[yeshuaisiam]

Go to youtube and watch a documentary called "they sold their souls for rock and roll".

Much of the mainstream music is VERY spiritually damaging.  People just don't understand the masonic & gnostic themes in it.

[orthonorm]

Go to youtube and watch a documentary called "they sold their souls for rock and roll".

Much of the mainstream music is VERY spiritually damaging.  People just don't understand the masonic & gnostic themes in it.

lulz. I think we can discard nearly any sentence that contains both the words masonic and gnostic in it.

[podkarpatska]

Go to youtube and watch a documentary called "they sold their souls for rock and roll".

Much of the mainstream music is VERY spiritually damaging.  People just don't understand the masonic & gnostic themes in it.

lulz. I think we can discard nearly any sentence that contains both the words masonic and gnostic in it.

Why not hit for the cycle* and include 'new world order' and 'Illuminati' while we're at it!                     

*An American sports term from baseball meaning a batter obtaining one of each of the types of possible fair hits during one game. It is a relatively rare feat.

[Iconodule]

The formulaic and inane noise that dominates the airwaves is just bad music. That's all you need to say- it's obvious. I get the feeling that people who deplore this music on the basis of supposed "Gnostic" elements must have really bad taste. 

[primuspilus]

Well, as a musician, all "music" made by "musical artists" I have a huge problem with. Music needs to be made by musicians...most Rappers, Brittany Spears, and folks of that ilk have as much MUSICAL talent as a cabbage.

Most of it is dont by a bunch of pasty techs whittling away at various musical programs (Pro Tools, Frooty Loops, etc) and the "artist" puts words to it.....

I love being a fuddy-duddy

primuspilus

[CRCulver]

Well, as a musician, all "music" made by "musical artists" I have a huge problem with. Music needs to be made by musicians...most Rappers, Brittany Spears, and folks of that ilk have as much MUSICAL talent as a cabbage.

Most of it is dont by a bunch of pasty techs whittling away at various musical programs (Pro Tools, Frooty Loops, etc) and the "artist" puts words to it.....

Many languages have the same word for "music" and "recitation of poetry". From that perspective, it's hard to condemn pop divas, since I've heard plenty of folk music that's equally banal, and it's hard to condemn hip-hop artists, since many oral epics are just as focused on profanity, sex and the hero's accumulation of bling-bling.

[primuspilus]

Oh, Im not stating that ALL music made by musicians is beyond criticism (musicians have made some serious howlers too...I think of crotch rock most recently). I just will not put the 2 on the same standard as most of the "musical artists" could not tell me anything about the note of C except it begins the word cat.

primuspilus

[yeshuaisiam]

Go to youtube and watch a documentary called "they sold their souls for rock and roll".

Much of the mainstream music is VERY spiritually damaging.  People just don't understand the masonic & gnostic themes in it.

lulz. I think we can discard nearly any sentence that contains both the words masonic and gnostic in it.

Why?

[primuspilus]

Why?

Mainly because far too often, when subjects like that are referenced, soon to follow are fantastic claims and very extreme reasoning with evidence whose credibility, or very foundation is stretched to the limit of believability. So after a while, people become not only desensitized, but totally discredit it outright because of it usually being outlandish....kind of how people say "My cousin's step-mother's uncle's girlfriend's daughter's rabbi saw Elvis at Wal-Mart yesterday."

primuspilus

[yeshuaisiam]

Go to youtube and watch a documentary called "they sold their souls for rock and roll".

Much of the mainstream music is VERY spiritually damaging.  People just don't understand the masonic & gnostic themes in it.

lulz. I think we can discard nearly any sentence that contains both the words masonic and gnostic in it.

Why not hit for the cycle* and include 'new world order' and 'Illuminati' while we're at it!                     

*An American sports term from baseball meaning a batter obtaining one of each of the types of possible fair hits during one game. It is a relatively rare feat.

Sure why not hit for it.   I mean, mainstream music has been so good for society, hasn't broken up families, or implanted thoughts of suicide, sex, and lack of family values.

Oh well, guess I'm just delusional.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAWpkZSCMXU

[primuspilus]

Now Im not discrediting your opinion, as you're entitled to it, but Im just explaining what others think when topics like the Illuminati are brought up. I hate to say it though, music didnt break up families, that is a convenient excuse. Causes usually run far deeper than that. I would venture to say many folks blame music for many things (and also blame D&D, video games, society, movies, famous people, porn, etc) but the reality is that those thoughts were already there and people are usually looking for something (one) to pass blame on and not take responsibility for themselves.

Those who argue music causes suicide fail to admit that these feelings or thoughts were there long before they downloaded an MP3 or bought a CD. People are fast to look at outside influences for these things instead of looking towards themselves and what they did to cause a family to break up, spouses to divorce, why their kids dont respect them, etc....and there's always some ambulance chaser ready to make a buck off of it, and some news channels ready to get ratings.....

primuspilus

[yeshuaisiam]

Now Im not discrediting your opinion, as you're entitled to it, but Im just explaining what others think when topics like the Illuminati are brought up. I hate to say it though, music didnt break up families, that is a convenient excuse. Causes usually run far deeper than that. I would venture to say many folks blame music for many things (and also blame D&D, video games, society, movies, famous people, porn, etc) but the reality is that those thoughts were already there and people are usually looking for something (one) to pass blame on and not take responsibility for themselves.

Those who argue music causes suicide fail to admit that these feelings or thoughts were there long before they downloaded an MP3 or bought a CD. People are fast to look at outside influences for these things instead of looking towards themselves and what they did to cause a family to break up, spouses to divorce, why their kids dont respect them, etc....and there's always some ambulance chaser ready to make a buck off of it, and some news channels ready to get ratings.....

primuspilus

All I can say is I think you are right in some aspects, but not in others.

Music is a catalyst, creates feelings, moods, and emotions. 

All I can do is say PLEASE watch the video series "They sold their souls for rock and roll".  It's on youtube, and it is long.  Probably on Google video too.  It's very educational and a complete eye opener.

[PoorFoolNicholas]

^Absolutely agree! Great video. The music industry is most demonic indeed.

[Ebor]

Go to youtube and watch a documentary called "they sold their souls for rock and roll".

Much of the mainstream music is VERY spiritually damaging.  People just don't understand the masonic & gnostic themes in it.

lulz. I think we can discard nearly any sentence that contains both the words masonic and gnostic in it.

Why not hit for the cycle* and include 'new world order' and 'Illuminati' while we're at it!                     

*An American sports term from baseball meaning a batter obtaining one of each of the types of possible fair hits during one game. It is a relatively rare feat.

You and Orthonorm have votes from me on this.  

[vamrat]

Well, as a musician, all "music" made by "musical artists" I have a huge problem with. Music needs to be made by musicians...most Rappers, Brittany Spears, and folks of that ilk have as much MUSICAL talent as a cabbage.

Most of it is dont by a bunch of pasty techs whittling away at various musical programs (Pro Tools, Frooty Loops, etc) and the "artist" puts words to it.....

I love being a fuddy-duddy

primuspilus

Are you saying that Brittney and the Rappists have latent musical talent then?  Because cabbage certainly has latent musical talent, you just need to eat it first.

[vamrat]

I don't know of any official stance. However, despite that, you should use your common sense. To condone the music also condones the actions and/or beliefs of the the performer and/or the composer of a musical piece. You may be impervious to the message, but the lack of criticism may lead the less knowledgeable astray.

I believe my avatar would like to include anything by Richard Wagner in the genre of classical music in this regard. I personally avoid anything by Richard Wagner with the exception of Apocalypse Now (emphasizing hubris) and Bugs Bunny cartoons (emphasizing the looney tunes' critique of his extremely ponderous idiotic music).

Hey all,

  what kinds of music are spiritually dangerous?  I've already seen that rap & hip hop can be, but what about other forms..?  Like among what's "mainstream" these days.. with all of the Pop music out there, and the different genres..

I hope this is in the right thread..!  If not, I apologize!  

Why are you hating on poor Wagner?  I like his ponderous stuff, it has substance, unlike much of the "fairies floating on the breeze" that is frequently passed off as classical music.  

[primuspilus]

Are you saying that Brittney and the Rappists have latent musical talent then?  Because cabbage certainly has latent musical talent, you just need to eat it first.

I concede to your wisdom

[yeshuaisiam]

Are you saying that Brittney and the Rappists have latent musical talent then?  Because cabbage certainly has latent musical talent, you just need to eat it first.

I concede to your wisdom

Not to me they don't but to the millions upon millions of people that are their fans they do.  Almost all of it is evil... Please watch the video I suggested.  You'll see.

[primuspilus]

I was speaking of the musically inclined cabbage, but I might give the video a look see.

primuspilus

[Ebor]

If it happened that the cabbage made music then to quote Duke Ellington

"If it sounds good, it is good."
 

[Opus118]

I don't know of any official stance. However, despite that, you should use your common sense. To condone the music also condones the actions and/or beliefs of the the performer and/or the composer of a musical piece. You may be impervious to the message, but the lack of criticism may lead the less knowledgeable astray.

I believe my avatar would like to include anything by Richard Wagner in the genre of classical music in this regard. I personally avoid anything by Richard Wagner with the exception of Apocalypse Now (emphasizing hubris) and Bugs Bunny cartoons (emphasizing the looney tunes' critique of his extremely ponderous idiotic music).

Hey all,

  what kinds of music are spiritually dangerous?  I've already seen that rap & hip hop can be, but what about other forms..?  Like among what's "mainstream" these days.. with all of the Pop music out there, and the different genres..

I hope this is in the right thread..!  If not, I apologize!  

Why are you hating on poor Wagner?  I like his ponderous stuff, it has substance, unlike much of the "fairies floating on the breeze" that is frequently passed off as classical music.  

I was biased against him at an early age (high school: having to critique The Monster by Deems Taylor). I have yet to see any redeeming features during his life other than his skill in musical composition. I do not want his music tugging my emotions, I find it suspect.  I did study Wagner's operas for an undergraduate course but I didn't enjoy having to do it. By the way, ponderous is OK when you are in the mood for it. I hope I do not get more "rolling eyes" because of this reply.

[orthonorm]

I don't know of any official stance. However, despite that, you should use your common sense. To condone the music also condones the actions and/or beliefs of the the performer and/or the composer of a musical piece. You may be impervious to the message, but the lack of criticism may lead the less knowledgeable astray.

I believe my avatar would like to include anything by Richard Wagner in the genre of classical music in this regard. I personally avoid anything by Richard Wagner with the exception of Apocalypse Now (emphasizing hubris) and Bugs Bunny cartoons (emphasizing the looney tunes' critique of his extremely ponderous idiotic music).

Hey all,

  what kinds of music are spiritually dangerous?  I've already seen that rap & hip hop can be, but what about other forms..?  Like among what's "mainstream" these days.. with all of the Pop music out there, and the different genres..

I hope this is in the right thread..!  If not, I apologize!  

Why are you hating on poor Wagner?  I like his ponderous stuff, it has substance, unlike much of the "fairies floating on the breeze" that is frequently passed off as classical music.  

I was biased against him at an early age (high school: having to critique The Monster by Deems Taylor). I have yet to see any redeeming features during his life other than his skill in musical composition. I do not want his music tugging my emotions, I find it suspect.  I did study Wagner's operas for an undergraduate course but I didn't enjoy having to do it. By the way, ponderous is OK when you are in the mood for it. I hope I do not get more "rolling eyes" because of this reply.

No, but you will get lulz. Time to abandon the whole biography = work view of an "author". Who cares what you find redeeming in his life. The very fact you mention Apocalypse Now in your post is lulz.

And did you know a lot of those lampoons of Wagner came from Wagnerians? It ain't uncommon for Wagnerians to have enjoy piling on the guy, see Thomas Mann's Tristan.

Now, I ain't no Wagnerian, but to dismiss the work which brought an end to the Romantic period of music by completely fulfilling it and also showing possibilities outside of it, shows naivete at best.

You might not like his work, nor your Avatar, but Wagner is the height and fulfillment of a musical epoch.

If you want a beautiful and pithy critique of the man's work, just turn to America's great aphorist and collector of wit:

"Wagner's music is better than it sounds." -Edgar Wilson Nye, popularized by Mark Twain.

[Opus118]

I don't know of any official stance. However, despite that, you should use your common sense. To condone the music also condones the actions and/or beliefs of the the performer and/or the composer of a musical piece. You may be impervious to the message, but the lack of criticism may lead the less knowledgeable astray.

I believe my avatar would like to include anything by Richard Wagner in the genre of classical music in this regard. I personally avoid anything by Richard Wagner with the exception of Apocalypse Now (emphasizing hubris) and Bugs Bunny cartoons (emphasizing the looney tunes' critique of his extremely ponderous idiotic music).

Hey all,

  what kinds of music are spiritually dangerous?  I've already seen that rap & hip hop can be, but what about other forms..?  Like among what's "mainstream" these days.. with all of the Pop music out there, and the different genres..

I hope this is in the right thread..!  If not, I apologize!  

Why are you hating on poor Wagner?  I like his ponderous stuff, it has substance, unlike much of the "fairies floating on the breeze" that is frequently passed off as classical music.  

I was biased against him at an early age (high school: having to critique The Monster by Deems Taylor). I have yet to see any redeeming features during his life other than his skill in musical composition. I do not want his music tugging my emotions, I find it suspect.  I did study Wagner's operas for an undergraduate course but I didn't enjoy having to do it. By the way, ponderous is OK when you are in the mood for it. I hope I do not get more "rolling eyes" because of this reply.

My perspective on the following reply:

No, but you will get lulz.The very fact you mention Apocalypse Now in your post is lulz.

I do not know what lulz is. My statement was meant to be silly and I used it to convey an opinion that I do not think is relevant to most people, but it is to me.

Time to abandon the whole biography = work view of an "author". Who cares what you find redeeming in his life.  

A surprisingly Wagnerian style statement guised in "who cares" for "no one cares". You are making a false assumption, in this case it is one's literary (not musical) opinion pieces that conveys the work view of an author.

And did you know a lot of those lampoons of Wagner came from Wagnerians? It ain't uncommon for Wagnerians to have enjoy piling on the guy, see Thomas Mann's Tristan.

I do not know about the lampoons (I have seen the cartoons but I did not bother to look up what they were about). Much of my opinion stems from his own writings.  

Now, I ain't no Wagnerian, but to dismiss the work which brought an end to the Romantic period of music by completely fulfilling it and also showing possibilities outside of it, shows naivete at best.

Subjective in regard to what is worthwhile and should be cherished in music. I recall hearing and disbelieving this same statement from my professors 35 years ago. According to them we should all be attuned to Karlheinz Stockhausen and Iannis Xenakis by this time. In my opinion the Romantic period went into decline with Berlioz and the New German School onwards. It is my private opinion, I was unable to obtain an emotional connection which I deem important. Wagner separated himself (or at least tried to) from the New German School. Perhaps that made him stand out temporarily (again my opinion, who knows?).

You might not like his work, nor your Avatar, but Wagner is the height and fulfillment of a musical epoch

Accepted as an opinion. My avatar would  probably argue this point.

If you want a beautiful and pithy critique of the man's work, just turn to America's great aphorist and collector of wit: "Wagner's music is better than it sounds." -Edgar Wilson Nye, popularized by Mark Twain.

Roger, will look this up, and an appreciated ending of your post.

[That person]

I don't know of any official stance. However, despite that, you should use your common sense. To condone the music also condones the actions and/or beliefs of the the performer and/or the composer of a musical piece. You may be impervious to the message, but the lack of criticism may lead the less knowledgeable astray.

I believe my avatar would like to include anything by Richard Wagner in the genre of classical music in this regard. I personally avoid anything by Richard Wagner with the exception of Apocalypse Now (emphasizing hubris) and Bugs Bunny cartoons (emphasizing the looney tunes' critique of his extremely ponderous idiotic music).

Hey all,

  what kinds of music are spiritually dangerous?  I've already seen that rap & hip hop can be, but what about other forms..?  Like among what's "mainstream" these days.. with all of the Pop music out there, and the different genres..

I hope this is in the right thread..!  If not, I apologize!  

Why are you hating on poor Wagner?  I like his ponderous stuff, it has substance, unlike much of the "fairies floating on the breeze" that is frequently passed off as classical music.  

I was biased against him at an early age (high school: having to critique The Monster by Deems Taylor). I have yet to see any redeeming features during his life other than his skill in musical composition. I do not want his music tugging my emotions, I find it suspect.  I did study Wagner's operas for an undergraduate course but I didn't enjoy having to do it. By the way, ponderous is OK when you are in the mood for it. I hope I do not get more "rolling eyes" because of this reply.

Wagner may have been a self-absorbed bigot, but he still composed some awesome music. Great artists tend to be out of their minds, so I do my best to judge art on its own merits and not put too much stock in my opinion of the artist.

[vamrat]

I don't know of any official stance. However, despite that, you should use your common sense. To condone the music also condones the actions and/or beliefs of the the performer and/or the composer of a musical piece. You may be impervious to the message, but the lack of criticism may lead the less knowledgeable astray.

I believe my avatar would like to include anything by Richard Wagner in the genre of classical music in this regard. I personally avoid anything by Richard Wagner with the exception of Apocalypse Now (emphasizing hubris) and Bugs Bunny cartoons (emphasizing the looney tunes' critique of his extremely ponderous idiotic music).

Hey all,

  what kinds of music are spiritually dangerous?  I've already seen that rap & hip hop can be, but what about other forms..?  Like among what's "mainstream" these days.. with all of the Pop music out there, and the different genres..

I hope this is in the right thread..!  If not, I apologize!  

Why are you hating on poor Wagner?  I like his ponderous stuff, it has substance, unlike much of the "fairies floating on the breeze" that is frequently passed off as classical music.  

I was biased against him at an early age (high school: having to critique The Monster by Deems Taylor). I have yet to see any redeeming features during his life other than his skill in musical composition. I do not want his music tugging my emotions, I find it suspect.  I did study Wagner's operas for an undergraduate course but I didn't enjoy having to do it. By the way, ponderous is OK when you are in the mood for it. I hope I do not get more "rolling eyes" because of this reply.

No, but you will get lulz. Time to abandon the whole biography = work view of an "author". Who cares what you find redeeming in his life. The very fact you mention Apocalypse Now in your post is lulz.

Actually, Apocalypse Now is the main reason I like Wager.  I believe that he had the Bell UH-1 'Iroquois' helicopter in mind when composing The Ride of the Valkyries, he just didn't have a name for a piece of machinery not to be invented yet for another century, which is why he used the name of mythological flying warrior women in his song title.

[orthonorm]

You don't like Wagner because of what you know about his life and the state of your emotions when you hear his work.

Great.

Can't argue with that. Especially since it ain't an argument to begin with. And reflects the prevailing view of "art" and how it is to be understood nowadays.

Wouldn't be worth the time to write in detail why his work was Romanticism and its end and the beginning of all which came in its wake.

But I will leave you with this:

The current Met production of the Ring cycle that was so greatly anticipated is about as underwhelming a production as you are going to find.

And the production of Tristan und Isolde a couple years ago was flat as well. (This being the work that pretty much put to death Romanticism and ushered in all approaches to drama and music in its aftermath.)

Now, last year's Met production of Adam's Doctor Atomic and this year's Nixon in China, with Peter Sellars back at the helm, were outstanding. Not a big fan of Adam's early playing around with minimalism, but the first 23 minutes or so of Nixon are nearly note perfect.

These last two operas I highly recommend anyone to see, especially those who think they don't like opera. Forget starting with the usual suspects, begin here.

[primuspilus]

Music that will eat yor soul inside out and leave a smoking husk in its wake?

Miley Cyrus.....

primuspilus

[orthonorm]

Music that will eat yor soul inside out and leave a smoking husk in its wake?

Miley Cyrus.....

primuspilus

Always liked Hanna Montana better.

[primuspilus]

*swat*

[synLeszka]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PaoLy7PHwk

This is dangerous music, because it speaks the truth.

[HeruvimTajno]

Extreme forms of heavy metal often have satanic and blasphemous lyrics.
I used to be a very serious fan of such music, though I'd always avoid bands with lyrics like that. I don't believe that demons are going to come out of your headphones but the imagery sticks in your mind and will damage that way, with an exception. Most bands that use such imagery only do so to shock, but there are a very small minority that actually do believe in the worship of Satan. I believe music like that poses a genuine danger to the listener because of the wicked evil behind it. Without giving much detail, I once listened to a band like that and I went into an extreme panic attack that lasted for over an hour. I ended up praying intensely to my guardian angel and to Jesus and that stopped whatever was going on. I do not know if it was psychological or demonic but from then on I removed music like that from my life.

[thetraditionalfrog]

While my favourite genres of music are Classical and Big Band, I happen to like a wide variety of music with the exception of extreme hard rock and metal. It would be nice not to have all the innuendo and expletives in pop music, but alas I'm afraid that isn't likely to disappear anytime in the near future. For myself I simply let that go in one ear and out the other. I'm not affected by it. Granted if I am blessed with children, I would definitely be more selective as to what they are able to listen to.

As for Wagner, I do enjoy some of his works. However, he was quite a character... standing on his head when visitors called, and hanging upside down from a balcony rail to observe the performance of one of his operas. What bothers me most is his antisemitism, some of which shows in his music.

[biro]

It was once said that listening to The Rite of Spring could drive you nuts. I have heard of no proof to bear this out, though.

As to whether certain kinds of music contribute to suicide- well, people did kill themselves prior to the second half of the 20th century, didn't they?... 

[orthonorm]

What bothers me most is his antisemitism, some of which shows in his music.

Prove it.

Nietzsche who was Wagner's close and dear friend and to whom Wagner was the father figure he never had eventually broke with Wagner over his anti-semitic attitides (among other reasons) and had his musical "turn" as a critic before the break and began to criticize Wagner for a lot of things in his music, none of which was anti-Semitism per se (can be debated some), though he criticized him for it as a man.

This is why it is lulz when people think Nietzsche was "anti-semitic". His strong stance against it in his writings and in his personal life cost him dearly.

Wagner did express "anti-semitic" opinions, but supported numerous Jewish musicians, conductors, friends and was supported by them (but they were "self-hating" I suppose etc.)

Which raises again the interesting question that haunts: what is "anti-semitism" or any other sorta simplistic shock word used to write off complex situations people are too bored to research and think about seriously. Or perhaps simply incapable of doing.

Again though, please in detail give me an analysis of the "anti-semitism" in his work. Be specific and plain.

If you plan to start with any sorta stretch with the Nibelung, don't.

[Opus118]

What bothers me most is his antisemitism, some of which shows in his music.

Prove it.

Nietzsche who was Wagner's close and dear friend and to whom Wagner was the father figure he never had eventually broke with Wagner over his anti-semitic attitides (among other reasons) and had his musical "turn" as a critic before the break and began to criticize Wagner for a lot of things in his music, none of which was anti-Semitism per se (can be debated some), though he criticized him for it as a man.

This is why it is lulz when people think Nietzsche was "anti-semitic". His strong stance against it in his writings and in his personal life cost him dearly.

Wagner did express "anti-semitic" opinions, but supported numerous Jewish musicians, conductors, friends and was supported by them (but they were "self-hating" I suppose etc.)

Which raises again the interesting question that haunts: what is "anti-semitism" or any other sorta simplistic shock word used to write off complex situations people are too bored to research and think about seriously. Or perhaps simply incapable of doing.

Again though, please in detail give me an analysis of the "anti-semitism" in his work. Be specific and plain.

If you plan to start with any sorta stretch with the Nibelung, don't.

This issue is covered here:
Hammer Lectures, Wagner and Anti-Semitism
http://hammer.ucla.edu/watchlisten/watchlisten/show_id/252351

I fell asleep in the middle of watching the three back-to-back lectures last night, but I went back to it this morning (the question and answer period was entertaining). Other than pointing out an accessible source, I have no additional comment on this matter.

[PeterTheAleut]

Well, as a musician, all "music" made by "musical artists" I have a huge problem with. Music needs to be made by musicians...most Rappers, Brittany Spears, and folks of that ilk have as much MUSICAL talent as a cabbage.

Most of it is dont by a bunch of pasty techs whittling away at various musical programs (Pro Tools, Frooty Loops, etc) and the "artist" puts words to it.....

Many languages have the same word for "music" and "recitation of poetry". From that perspective, it's hard to condemn pop divas, since I've heard plenty of folk music that's equally banal, and it's hard to condemn hip-hop artists, since many oral epics are just as focused on profanity, sex and the hero's accumulation of bling-bling.

Yup. Much of today's concept of "sex, drugs, and rock-n-roll" is merely a continuation of the more ancient "wine, women, and song".

[Shlomlokh]

Well, as a musician, all "music" made by "musical artists" I have a huge problem with. Music needs to be made by musicians...most Rappers, Brittany Spears, and folks of that ilk have as much MUSICAL talent as a cabbage.

Most of it is dont by a bunch of pasty techs whittling away at various musical programs (Pro Tools, Frooty Loops, etc) and the "artist" puts words to it.....

Many languages have the same word for "music" and "recitation of poetry". From that perspective, it's hard to condemn pop divas, since I've heard plenty of folk music that's equally banal, and it's hard to condemn hip-hop artists, since many oral epics are just as focused on profanity, sex and the hero's accumulation of bling-bling.

Yup. Much of today's concept of "sex, drugs, and rock-n-roll" is merely a continuation of the more ancient "wine, women, and song".

Great point. I'm reminded of a Russian proverb: "Nothing disappears, it only changes." lol

In Christ,
Andrew

[crux_84]

Well, as a musician, all "music" made by "musical artists" I have a huge problem with. Music needs to be made by musicians...most Rappers, Brittany Spears, and folks of that ilk have as much MUSICAL talent as a cabbage.

Most of it is dont by a bunch of pasty techs whittling away at various musical programs (Pro Tools, Frooty Loops, etc) and the "artist" puts words to it.....

Many languages have the same word for "music" and "recitation of poetry". From that perspective, it's hard to condemn pop divas, since I've heard plenty of folk music that's equally banal, and it's hard to condemn hip-hop artists, since many oral epics are just as focused on profanity, sex and the hero's accumulation of bling-bling.

lol .. I just quoted you on my facebook wall (with a link to this page)

[JamesR]

People single out rap/hip-hop too much. Rock/Metal is just as 'dangerous' and profane, if not even worse. Going back further, all of the ancient tales and epics are no better either. The Odyssey is about violence, getting wealth, sleeping with women and drinking just like most modern music. Going even further, many people misunderstand hip-hop culture. If you actually listened to the lyrics and think of what led to this, you would get a better perspective. Hip-Hop is the minorities' music that started out when American slaves could not afford instruments so they had to use their lyricism as their instrument. Political controversy in music has almost always been led by hip-hop because hip-hop is where minorities express their rage against society, touch upon these issues and albeit at times just unleash their anger in a strange, gonzo sort of fashion like NWA. Look up songs like 'Brenda's Got a Baby' and 'Trapped' by Tupac or 'Fight the Power' by Public Enemy and 'F*** Da Police' by NWA.

[Cantor Krishnich]

People single out rap/hip-hop too much. Rock/Metal is just as 'dangerous' and profane, if not even worse. Going back further, all of the ancient tales and epics are no better either. The Odyssey is about violence, getting wealth, sleeping with women and drinking just like most modern music. Going even further, many people misunderstand hip-hop culture. If you actually listened to the lyrics and think of what led to this, you would get a better perspective. Hip-Hop is the minorities' music that started out when American slaves could not afford instruments so they had to use their lyricism as their instrument. Political controversy in music has almost always been led by hip-hop because hip-hop is where minorities express their rage against society, touch upon these issues and albeit at times just unleash their anger in a strange, gonzo sort of fashion like NWA. Look up songs like 'Brenda's Got a Baby' and 'Trapped' by Tupac or 'Fight the Power' by Public Enemy and 'F*** Da Police' by NWA.

I agree about some rock/metal songs being just as bad or worse.....I dont think the Slaves used rap but rather Black Spiritual Hymns. I would say that rap/hip-hop in its clean/morally ok versions (not the much of the crap you hear on todays radio), is a form of artistic expression and has origins as far back as the West African Griots Storytellers.

[amartin]

ALL music made by unspiritual people is dangerous. This includes the Rock N' Roll of the Evangelicals which is obviously wrong. If someone does not experience this then they are on a very low level. We should only listen to spiritual music.

[Timon]

ALL music made by unspiritual people is dangerous. This includes the Rock N' Roll of the Evangelicals which is obviously wrong. If someone does not experience this then they are on a very low level. We should only listen to spiritual music.

like this?? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DO09VDTPyQ

[amartin]

ALL music made by unspiritual people is dangerous. This includes the Rock N' Roll of the Evangelicals which is obviously wrong. If someone does not experience this then they are on a very low level. We should only listen to spiritual music.

like this?? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DO09VDTPyQ

Yes. That is spiritual music and is edifying.

[orthonorm]

ALL music made by unspiritual people is dangerous. This includes the Rock N' Roll of the Evangelicals which is obviously wrong. If someone does not experience this then they are on a very low level. We should only listen to spiritual music.

like this?? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DO09VDTPyQ

Yes. That is spiritual music and is edifying.

Comment:

Dead flowers remind me beautiful things in don't last forever.

Sad when people don't see the beauty in death.

[orthonorm]

People single out rap/hip-hop too much. Rock/Metal is just as 'dangerous' and profane, if not even worse. Going back further, all of the ancient tales and epics are no better either. The Odyssey is about violence, getting wealth, sleeping with women and drinking just like most modern music. Going even further, many people misunderstand hip-hop culture. If you actually listened to the lyrics and think of what led to this, you would get a better perspective. Hip-Hop is the minorities' music that started out when American slaves could not afford instruments so they had to use their lyricism as their instrument. Political controversy in music has almost always been led by hip-hop because hip-hop is where minorities express their rage against society, touch upon these issues and albeit at times just unleash their anger in a strange, gonzo sort of fashion like NWA. Look up songs like 'Brenda's Got a Baby' and 'Trapped' by Tupac or 'Fight the Power' by Public Enemy and 'F*** Da Police' by NWA.

Interestingly, a great argument can be made about the so called war epic the Iliad that is it an incredible tale of the woes of war and the dignity of the "enemy". Perhaps it is just felicitous where most of the texts happen to end.

The ending of the Iliad remains one of the most beautiful and touching accounts in literature of a real loss of a good man, Hector.

The Tamer of Horses.

His memory will truly be eternal as one can be in this world. A loving husband, father, son, brother, citizen, and man.

[JamesRottnek]

ALL music made by unspiritual people is dangerous. This includes the Rock N' Roll of the Evangelicals which is obviously wrong. If someone does not experience this then they are on a very low level. We should only listen to spiritual music.

And what defines "spiritual" versus "unspiritual" music?  Perhaps those who are really "on a very low level" are those who cannot spiritualize the vast majority of seemingly worldly songs.

[Ergib]

By choice, I don't listen to unspiritual/worldly music. It dose me any good.

[crux_84]

Im listening to Wesley Willis right now.For those who dont know he was an overweight black schizophrenic with an extremely charming childlikeness.His songs are completely idiotic and full of cuss words but its like listening to a charmingly naughty 10 year old.Yet the guy proclaimed to have 3 specific demons.Heres my favorite song of his he wrote about being thrown out of his protestant church.("They Threw Me Out of Church"). <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/EZKApT6vC0g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Timon]

Im listening to Wesley Willis right now.For those who dont know he was an overweight black schizophrenic with an extremely charming childlikeness.His songs are completely idiotic and full of cuss words but its like listening to a charmingly naughty 10 year old.Yet the guy proclaimed to have 3 specific demons.Heres my favorite song of his he wrote about being thrown out of his protestant church.("They Threw Me Out of Church"). <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/EZKApT6vC0g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Haha. I remember that guy... specifically the McDonalds song.

[crux_84]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PaoLy7PHwk

This is dangerous music, because it speaks the truth.

hahaha..that made me so happy.

[crux_84]

Im listening to Wesley Willis right now.For those who dont know he was an overweight black schizophrenic with an extremely charming childlikeness.His songs are completely idiotic and full of cuss words but its like listening to a charmingly naughty 10 year old.Yet the guy proclaimed to have 3 specific demons.Heres my favorite song of his he wrote about being thrown out of his protestant church.("They Threw Me Out of Church"). <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/EZKApT6vC0g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Haha. I remember that guy... specifically the McDonalds song.

Mcdonalds is the place to rock!

[amartin]

Mcdonalds is the place to rock!

McDonalds is definitely forbidden. It is a cesspit of grease, harmful foods, and relies on inhumane treatment of animals.

[Timon]

Mcdonalds is the place to rock!

McDonalds is definitely forbidden. It is a cesspit of grease, harmful foods, and relies on inhumane treatment of animals.

But its SOOOOOO good!  Its my 2nd favorite fast food joint only to Chik-fil-a.

[crux_84]

Mcdonalds is the place to rock!

McDonalds is definitely forbidden. It is a cesspit of grease, harmful foods, and relies on inhumane treatment of animals.

As I suspected Wesley Willis was an agent of the devil....but then he sorta suddenly changes his mind at the end and proclaims that "Mcdonals hamburgers are the worst."

[primuspilus]

Mcdonalds is the place to rock!

McDonalds is definitely forbidden. It is a cesspit of grease, harmful foods, and relies on inhumane treatment of animals.

McDonalds doesnt create the hamburger. That is like accusing you of Chicken abuse because of your 2-piece wing and thigh meal you bought.

PP

[alanscott]

Whatever my neighbors are listening to past 12AM. After 3AM it takes on possible dangers of a physical nature.

   Well said!!

[Immanuel]

Hey all,

  what kinds of music are spiritually dangerous? 

Rock music. Especially heavy metal, black metal and so on.

[Asteriktos]

[Asteriktos]

Pretty sure the most beautiful song created in the last several decades was both metallic and spiritual (seriously). That's my objectively subjective opinion of fact.

[Timon]

Pretty sure the most beautiful song created in the last several decades was both metallic and spiritual (seriously). That's my objectively subjective opinion of fact.

Such a great song and record!

[Timon]

There is "spiritually dangerous" music in every genre, so we shouldnt single out any particular genre.  I hate when people link heavy music with "evil" music when its the innocent sounding pop garbage that kids listen to on the radio is probably more dangerous than anything. 

[vamrat]

Anything by Die Antwoord is spiritually damaging...but it is really catchy!

[Iconodule]

There is "spiritually dangerous" music in every genre, so we shouldnt single out any particular genre.  I hate when people link heavy music with "evil" music when its the innocent sounding pop garbage that kids listen to on the radio is probably more dangerous than anything. 

Yup. Dangerous music= crappy music.

[yeshuaisiam]

Go to youtube, and watch "they sold their souls for rock and roll".

It's an amazing documentary.  The full documentary is 10 hours long.  It's a wake up call to the modern Christian about music like no other that I've seen.

[Asteriktos]

Go to youtube, and watch "they sold their souls for rock and roll".

It's an amazing documentary.  The full documentary is 10 hours long.  It's a wake up call to the modern Christian about music like no other that I've seen.

You'd think if they sold their soul that the Devil would have given them a better deal. I mean, seriously, have you seen Ozzy? Satan gets them for all of eternity and all the devil could manage to give them was a few good years of partying? He can't even manage to help these guys grow old gracefully--in looks if not in actions?

[yeshuaisiam]

Go to youtube, and watch "they sold their souls for rock and roll".

It's an amazing documentary.  The full documentary is 10 hours long.  It's a wake up call to the modern Christian about music like no other that I've seen.

You'd think if they sold their soul that the Devil would have given them a better deal. I mean, seriously, have you seen Ozzy? Satan gets them for all of eternity and all the devil could manage to give them was a few good years of partying? He can't even manage to help these guys grow old gracefully--in looks if not in actions?

Well he was a liar since the beginning.  I dunno why they did it.  Yes, I've seen him.  He's famous.  His wife is on TV tonight.  His children are famous.  He has tons of money.... but in my opinion he's an absolute mess.

Anyway, it's a great documentary.  Absolutely a must see.   Amazing stuff & history lesson on music as well.   Just watch a few excerpts at least.  If you watch from beginning to end, it is amazing.

[That person]

Go to youtube, and watch "they sold their souls for rock and roll".

It's an amazing documentary.  The full documentary is 10 hours long.  It's a wake up call to the modern Christian about music like no other that I've seen.

You'd think if they sold their soul that the Devil would have given them a better deal. I mean, seriously, have you seen Ozzy? Satan gets them for all of eternity and all the devil could manage to give them was a few good years of partying? He can't even manage to help these guys grow old gracefully--in looks if not in actions?

I could buy Lemmy having maybe made some pact with Satan. Maintaining perfect health while subsisting entirely on bacon, liquor, and narcotics would be difficult to pull of without supernatural aid of some sort.

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