Author Topic: The Myth of Schism  (Read 17218 times)

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Offline synLeszka

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I am still waiting for a logical argument laying out a distinction between the modern annulment process and the reality of divorce upon grounds as laid out by our Greek brothers at http://www.denver.goarch.org/offices/registry/forms/Divorce.pdf
Americans have a greater tolerance for divorce than practising Catholics in Europe. The thing is that divorce in my legal system entails the dissolution of marriage but not always the division and exmission of the divorced partners of marriage. On the other hand, in the past up to 1945 in Poland, the separation of table and bed, as foreseen in Catholic Canon Law, entailed a greater economic separation and division of property but the bond of marriage was upheld. The fact is that even in Europe, in our continental system the definition of marriage, annulment and the dissolution of marriage differs in each national legal system, because of the juridical tradition.
It seems to me that the fact, that the canon law's higher instances are Italian is the reason for this annulment drive. As a test case, Poland and Italy have identical anti-abortion laws yet(!) Poland under this regime has c.500 legal abortions yearly, while Italy has 25.000. Poland has about 36 million people, Italy 60 million. Although, the number of sexual assaulted females in Italy is 0,6% of the population while 0,2% in Poland.

Offline podkarpatska

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I am still waiting for a logical argument laying out a distinction between the modern annulment process and the reality of divorce upon grounds as laid out by our Greek brothers at http://www.denver.goarch.org/offices/registry/forms/Divorce.pdf
Americans have a greater tolerance for divorce than practising Catholics in Europe. The thing is that divorce in my legal system entails the dissolution of marriage but not always the division and exmission of the divorced partners of marriage. On the other hand, in the past up to 1945 in Poland, the separation of table and bed, as foreseen in Catholic Canon Law, entailed a greater economic separation and division of property but the bond of marriage was upheld. The fact is that even in Europe, in our continental system the definition of marriage, annulment and the dissolution of marriage differs in each national legal system, because of the juridical tradition.
It seems to me that the fact, that the canon law's higher instances are Italian is the reason for this annulment drive. As a test case, Poland and Italy have identical anti-abortion laws yet(!) Poland under this regime has c.500 legal abortions yearly, while Italy has 25.000. Poland has about 36 million people, Italy 60 million. Although, the number of sexual assaulted females in Italy is 0,6% of the population while 0,2% in Poland.


It's interesting. I am old enough to remember when a divorce of one of the candidates for a major political party's Presidential nomination was one of the factors which was held against him in 1964.

Twelve years later, in 1976, and in 1980 when he was finally elected, Ronald Reagan's divorce was a non-issue. Things in America changed dramatically in that short period.

Offline synLeszka

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It's interesting. I am old enough to remember when a divorce of one of the candidates for a major political party's Presidential nomination was one of the factors which was held against him in 1964.

Twelve years later, in 1976, and in 1980 when he was finally elected, Ronald Reagan's divorce was a non-issue. Things in America changed dramatically in that short period.

Hmm, I once read a brochure from the 1930's written by a Jesuit that berated the United States for immorality and the promotion of divorce.

Offline ialmisry

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I am still waiting for a logical argument laying out a distinction between the modern annulment process and the reality of divorce upon grounds as laid out by our Greek brothers at http://www.denver.goarch.org/offices/registry/forms/Divorce.pdf
Americans have a greater tolerance for divorce than practising Catholics in Europe. The thing is that divorce in my legal system entails the dissolution of marriage but not always the division and exmission of the divorced partners of marriage. On the other hand, in the past up to 1945 in Poland, the separation of table and bed, as foreseen in Catholic Canon Law, entailed a greater economic separation and division of property but the bond of marriage was upheld. The fact is that even in Europe, in our continental system the definition of marriage, annulment and the dissolution of marriage differs in each national legal system, because of the juridical tradition.
It seems to me that the fact, that the canon law's higher instances are Italian is the reason for this annulment drive. As a test case, Poland and Italy have identical anti-abortion laws yet(!) Poland under this regime has c.500 legal abortions yearly, while Italy has 25.000. Poland has about 36 million people, Italy 60 million. Although, the number of sexual assaulted females in Italy is 0,6% of the population while 0,2% in Poland.


It's interesting. I am old enough to remember when a divorce of one of the candidates for a major political party's Presidential nomination was one of the factors which was held against him in 1964.

Twelve years later, in 1976, and in 1980 when he was finally elected, Ronald Reagan's divorce was a non-issue. Things in America changed dramatically in that short period.
Actually, we have the present occupant because of divorce: both in the democrat primary and the general elections, Hussain's opponents were done in when their divorce records were publicized.  During the last Republic primary, the comment was made that the Mormon (Romney) was the only one with one wife, and McCain's divorce came up in the general election.

It helped that by 1976 Reagan and Nancy had been married forever, and so publicly (the GE Family theatre or some such thing), and the fact that all of Ms. Wyman's marriages before and after Ronnie didn't add up to the amount of time she remained married to him.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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It's interesting. I am old enough to remember when a divorce of one of the candidates for a major political party's Presidential nomination was one of the factors which was held against him in 1964.

Twelve years later, in 1976, and in 1980 when he was finally elected, Ronald Reagan's divorce was a non-issue. Things in America changed dramatically in that short period.

Hmm, I once read a brochure from the 1930's written by a Jesuit that berated the United States for immorality and the promotion of divorce.
maybe he didn't like the Duchess of Windsor
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline synLeszka

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It's interesting. I am old enough to remember when a divorce of one of the candidates for a major political party's Presidential nomination was one of the factors which was held against him in 1964.

Twelve years later, in 1976, and in 1980 when he was finally elected, Ronald Reagan's divorce was a non-issue. Things in America changed dramatically in that short period.

Hmm, I once read a brochure from the 1930's written by a Jesuit that berated the United States for immorality and the promotion of divorce.
maybe he didn't like the Duchess of Windsor
Before the War, Jesuits seemed to not like the British. I once read a tract in an old-book store, by a French Jesuit from the 20th century, in which he called for Catholics to pray against the imminent Russian-English Orthodox-Anglican world empire, which with the laicite France, would destroy Catholicism. Somehow, Catholicism is.

Offline elijahmaria

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Well, Mary often insists that, since we are not in submission to the Vatican (or, as it phrases it, "in full communion with the see of St. Peter"), we have nothing to offer, yet we offer her (and others) what the agents of their "magisterium" stamp as real, I guess in terms of both.

Either your reading comprehension is lacking something or you simply do not read what I write, but you could not be more off base with your comment here.

M.

Offline Papist

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Well, Mary often insists that, since we are not in submission to the Vatican (or, as it phrases it, "in full communion with the see of St. Peter"), we have nothing to offer, yet we offer her (and others) what the agents of their "magisterium" stamp as real, I guess in terms of both.

Either your reading comprehension is lacking something or you simply do not read what I write, but you could not be more off base with your comment here.

M.
I think Izzy is purposely misrepresenting your views.
My posts no longer forum here.

Offline ialmisry

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It's interesting. I am old enough to remember when a divorce of one of the candidates for a major political party's Presidential nomination was one of the factors which was held against him in 1964.

Twelve years later, in 1976, and in 1980 when he was finally elected, Ronald Reagan's divorce was a non-issue. Things in America changed dramatically in that short period.

Hmm, I once read a brochure from the 1930's written by a Jesuit that berated the United States for immorality and the promotion of divorce.
maybe he didn't like the Duchess of Windsor
Before the War, Jesuits seemed to not like the British. I once read a tract in an old-book store, by a French Jesuit from the 20th century, in which he called for Catholics to pray against the imminent Russian-English Orthodox-Anglican world empire, which with the laicite France, would destroy Catholicism. Somehow, Catholicism is.
Somehow Catholicism is what?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Peter J

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It's interesting. I am old enough to remember when a divorce of one of the candidates for a major political party's Presidential nomination was one of the factors which was held against him in 1964.

Twelve years later, in 1976, and in 1980 when he was finally elected, Ronald Reagan's divorce was a non-issue. Things in America changed dramatically in that short period.

Hmm, I once read a brochure from the 1930's written by a Jesuit that berated the United States for immorality and the promotion of divorce.
maybe he didn't like the Duchess of Windsor
Before the War, Jesuits seemed to not like the British. I once read a tract in an old-book store, by a French Jesuit from the 20th century, in which he called for Catholics to pray against the imminent Russian-English Orthodox-Anglican world empire, which with the laicite France, would destroy Catholicism. Somehow, Catholicism is.
Somehow Catholicism is what?

I think he means, continues to exist.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline ialmisry

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Well, Mary often insists that, since we are not in submission to the Vatican (or, as it phrases it, "in full communion with the see of St. Peter"), we have nothing to offer, yet we offer her (and others) what the agents of their "magisterium" stamp as real, I guess in terms of both.

Either your reading comprehension is lacking something or you simply do not read what I write, but you could not be more off base with your comment here.

I read what you writ quite fine, which is what infuriates you so (only on occasion is your posts incomprehensible and indecipherable, in which case I ask for clarification).  And I am spot on. 

I'm sure the Vatican wouldn't want me to speak to their catechumens, but that's not a bar to stating what the Vatican believes-even when that is contradictory-by using its own words. I'm not seeking the Vatican's imprematur, and since even if your supreme pontiff spoke to me personally ex cathedra would mean nothing to me, its imprematur means nothing as to its veracity, just to its authority to represent your "magisterium."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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It's interesting. I am old enough to remember when a divorce of one of the candidates for a major political party's Presidential nomination was one of the factors which was held against him in 1964.

Twelve years later, in 1976, and in 1980 when he was finally elected, Ronald Reagan's divorce was a non-issue. Things in America changed dramatically in that short period.

Hmm, I once read a brochure from the 1930's written by a Jesuit that berated the United States for immorality and the promotion of divorce.
maybe he didn't like the Duchess of Windsor
Before the War, Jesuits seemed to not like the British. I once read a tract in an old-book store, by a French Jesuit from the 20th century, in which he called for Catholics to pray against the imminent Russian-English Orthodox-Anglican world empire, which with the laicite France, would destroy Catholicism. Somehow, Catholicism is.
Somehow Catholicism is what?

I think he means, continues to exist.
Ah, so the Vatican survived the ravings of some Jesuit. How mighty.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Well, Mary often insists that, since we are not in submission to the Vatican (or, as it phrases it, "in full communion with the see of St. Peter"), we have nothing to offer, yet we offer her (and others) what the agents of their "magisterium" stamp as real, I guess in terms of both.

Either your reading comprehension is lacking something or you simply do not read what I write, but you could not be more off base with your comment here.

M.
I think Izzy is purposely misrepresenting your views.
Who?

I'm purposely representing her statements.  Whether her statements misrepresent her views only she can tell.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Christ is ascended!
Well, Mary often insists that, since we are not in submission to the Vatican (or, as it phrases it, "in full communion with the see of St. Peter"), we have nothing to offer, yet we offer her (and others) what the agents of their "magisterium" stamp as real, I guess in terms of both.

Either your reading comprehension is lacking something or you simply do not read what I write, but you could not be more off base with your comment here.

I read what you writ quite fine, which is what infuriates you so (only on occasion is your posts incomprehensible and indecipherable, in which case I ask for clarification).  And I am spot on. 

I'm sure the Vatican wouldn't want me to speak to their catechumens, but that's not a bar to stating what the Vatican believes-even when that is contradictory-by using its own words. I'm not seeking the Vatican's imprematur, and since even if your supreme pontiff spoke to me personally ex cathedra would mean nothing to me, its imprematur means nothing as to its veracity, just to its authority to represent your "magisterium."

 :)  Not even your own co-religionists will get behind you on this one.   And frankly I could care less what your spot is on...It is not on me   :)
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 10:03:33 PM by elijahmaria »

Offline Peter J

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Christ is ascended!


It's interesting. I am old enough to remember when a divorce of one of the candidates for a major political party's Presidential nomination was one of the factors which was held against him in 1964.

Twelve years later, in 1976, and in 1980 when he was finally elected, Ronald Reagan's divorce was a non-issue. Things in America changed dramatically in that short period.

Hmm, I once read a brochure from the 1930's written by a Jesuit that berated the United States for immorality and the promotion of divorce.
maybe he didn't like the Duchess of Windsor
Before the War, Jesuits seemed to not like the British. I once read a tract in an old-book store, by a French Jesuit from the 20th century, in which he called for Catholics to pray against the imminent Russian-English Orthodox-Anglican world empire, which with the laicite France, would destroy Catholicism. Somehow, Catholicism is.
Somehow Catholicism is what?

I think he means, continues to exist.
Ah, so the Vatican survived the ravings of some Jesuit. How mighty.

;D
Well, that too I guess. I was thinking of it more like, the ravings about a conspiracy that was going to destroy the Church (including the Vatican of course) didn't come true.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline ialmisry

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Well, Mary often insists that, since we are not in submission to the Vatican (or, as it phrases it, "in full communion with the see of St. Peter"), we have nothing to offer, yet we offer her (and others) what the agents of their "magisterium" stamp as real, I guess in terms of both.

Either your reading comprehension is lacking something or you simply do not read what I write, but you could not be more off base with your comment here.

I read what you writ quite fine, which is what infuriates you so (only on occasion is your posts incomprehensible and indecipherable, in which case I ask for clarification).  And I am spot on. 

I'm sure the Vatican wouldn't want me to speak to their catechumens, but that's not a bar to stating what the Vatican believes-even when that is contradictory-by using its own words. I'm not seeking the Vatican's imprematur, and since even if your supreme pontiff spoke to me personally ex cathedra would mean nothing to me, its imprematur means nothing as to its veracity, just to its authority to represent your "magisterium."

 :)  Not even your own co-religionists will get behind you on this one.
oh? you consulted those myriads of unnamed Orthodox experts on this, have you?
And frankly I could care less what your spot is on...It is not on me   :)
Me thinks the lady doth protest too much.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alpo

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Re: The Myth of Schism
« Reply #196 on: June 12, 2011, 08:40:04 AM »
The aforementioned John Romanides, for instance, has produced expositions of the thought of Augustine and Thomas Aquinas that are almost miraculously devoid of one single correct statement

 ;D ;D ;D

Thank you for recommendation, Sleeper. Sounds interesting.
The user should probably be sleeping by now.

Offline WetCatechumen

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It's interesting. I am old enough to remember when a divorce of one of the candidates for a major political party's Presidential nomination was one of the factors which was held against him in 1964.

Twelve years later, in 1976, and in 1980 when he was finally elected, Ronald Reagan's divorce was a non-issue. Things in America changed dramatically in that short period.

Hmm, I once read a brochure from the 1930's written by a Jesuit that berated the United States for immorality and the promotion of divorce.
maybe he didn't like the Duchess of Windsor
Before the War, Jesuits seemed to not like the British. I once read a tract in an old-book store, by a French Jesuit from the 20th century, in which he called for Catholics to pray against the imminent Russian-English Orthodox-Anglican world empire, which with the laicite France, would destroy Catholicism. Somehow, Catholicism is.
Obviously it worked.
"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence