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Author Topic: Being a witness to your friends and minute rules of the law  (Read 2014 times) Average Rating: 0
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William
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« on: June 03, 2011, 10:26:58 PM »

This has been a problem ever since I got serious about religion. I'm not willing to illegally download music, watch pirated movies, watch TV shows online unless uploaded by someone with the legal right to do so, or borrow or lend videogames. Most (read: all) of my friends see this stuff as "no big deal" and do it anyway. Am I obligated to tell them they ought to obey the law? Or can I keep my mouth shut as long as I don't do anything illegal myself?
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« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2011, 10:52:26 PM »

This has been a problem ever since I got serious about religion. I'm not willing to illegally download music, watch pirated movies, watch TV shows online unless uploaded by someone with the legal right to do so, or borrow or lend videogames. Most (read: all) of my friends see this stuff as "no big deal" and do it anyway. Am I obligated to tell them they ought to obey the law? Or can I keep my mouth shut as long as I don't do anything illegal myself?

I am a lawyer, so I thought I would let you know that it is not a violation of copyright law to borrow or lend videogames. So, feel free to do that with your friends. Just don't make unauthorized copies of the games. That is my secular advice.

Regarding how to deal with your friends, they know that they shouldn't be pirating copyrighted materials, so you need not tell them anything. Is their copyright violation worse than any one of your sins?* Instead, lead by your good example. Of course, if they ask why you do not take part, feel free to tell them.

* whether or not violation of copyright law is a sin might be a discussion unto itself.
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« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2011, 03:57:13 AM »

perhaps if you are serious about "religion," you could spend your time more profitably than
by playing video games ...
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« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2011, 08:09:54 AM »

perhaps if you are serious about "religion," you could spend your time more profitably than
by playing video games ...

Forgive me, but I don't think your retort was helpful in the slightest. This is not amishvolk.net. 
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« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2011, 08:53:14 AM »

Am I obligated to tell them they ought to obey the law?

No.

Or can I keep my mouth shut as long as I don't do anything illegal myself?

Yes.

This is not amishvolk.net. 

Heh.

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William
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« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2011, 09:58:59 AM »

This has been a problem ever since I got serious about religion. I'm not willing to illegally download music, watch pirated movies, watch TV shows online unless uploaded by someone with the legal right to do so, or borrow or lend videogames. Most (read: all) of my friends see this stuff as "no big deal" and do it anyway. Am I obligated to tell them they ought to obey the law? Or can I keep my mouth shut as long as I don't do anything illegal myself?

I am a lawyer, so I thought I would let you know that it is not a violation of copyright law to borrow or lend videogames. So, feel free to do that with your friends. Just don't make unauthorized copies of the games. That is my secular advice.
I thought that a game's software license agreement usually had a provision that one is not to lend the product.
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« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2011, 10:11:15 AM »

Copyright is a Western European and North American innovation and makes little sense to most of the Orthodox world. It may be enshrined in law due to the pressure of a few strong nations -- raising a debate about the Christian duty to obey unjust laws -- but in itself it is not immoral to copy artistic works, for this is how Orthodox Christians maintained a literary canon and had access to entertainment for well over a thousand years.

And 'round these parts, it's very common for Orthodox monasteries and church shops to copy and sell liturgical music recordings and monastery tourism DVDs without authorization from the copyright holder. When I've pointed out to monks that this is in fact illegal, they either laugh and say such a law is too stupid to follow, or they look at me like I'm from Mars.

I thought that a game's software license agreement usually had a provision that one is not to lend the product.

EULAs often make stipulations that are of very dubious enforceability.
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« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2011, 11:55:01 AM »

This has been a problem ever since I got serious about religion. I'm not willing to illegally download music, watch pirated movies, watch TV shows online unless uploaded by someone with the legal right to do so, or borrow or lend videogames. Most (read: all) of my friends see this stuff as "no big deal" and do it anyway. Am I obligated to tell them they ought to obey the law? Or can I keep my mouth shut as long as I don't do anything illegal myself?

I am a lawyer, so I thought I would let you know that it is not a violation of copyright law to borrow or lend videogames. So, feel free to do that with your friends. Just don't make unauthorized copies of the games. That is my secular advice.
I thought that a game's software license agreement usually had a provision that one is not to lend the product.

The EULA is not copyright law. I cannot comment on a EULA I haven't read, although many do prohibit lending of the product. However, breach of contract is not "breaking the law". Also, there is no breach of contract without damages. Beyond that, the federal circuits are currently split regarding the first-sale doctrine as it applies to software. At this point, the thread has now become overly technical.

At worst, lending a game would be a breach of contract, if in fact the EULA is valid and enforceable and the game's publisher could prove damages. I think that would be dubious, but even if so, I do not know what church teaching is regarding breach of contract. I do not view contractual relations between parties as having a moral component. There is such a thing as efficient breach, for example, when I think it would be wrong to carry out the contract.

Also, there is the issue of unjust laws. I (and this is only my opinion) think that while a Christian should generally obey the laws of the jurisdiction in which he lives, there may not be an obligation to obey an unjust law. For example, Martin Luther King Jr's disobedience of unjust laws was informed by his Christianity. Again, this is only my opinion, while I think authors of creative works are entitled to a limited monopoly for just compensation, the current system of copyright law in the United States is out of hand. Works created today are granted copyright protection for a term ending 70 years after the death of the author. If the work was a work for hire (e.g., those created by a corporation) then copyright persists for 120 years after creation or 95 years after publication, whichever is shorter. In my opinion, the original system of 28 years was ample to protect the author's interests.

Let me put that into perspective. The movie "Green Lantern" will be released later this month. Under current copyright law, it will not enter the public domain until 2106, or maybe January 1, 2107. Either way, you get the idea. My grandchildren might be dead by the time the movie is in the public domain. (my children are 6 and 3)

But, to get back to your original question about the EULA, I would be interested to know if there is any church teaching regarding breach of contract.
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« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2011, 12:17:15 PM »

This has been a problem ever since I got serious about religion. I'm not willing to illegally download music, watch pirated movies, watch TV shows online unless uploaded by someone with the legal right to do so, or borrow or lend videogames. Most (read: all) of my friends see this stuff as "no big deal" and do it anyway. Am I obligated to tell them they ought to obey the law? Or can I keep my mouth shut as long as I don't do anything illegal myself?

If this was the only sin that I had on my conscience, and the only one my friends engaged in, I would cease praying for forgiveness and spend all of my waking hours thanking God that he had helped me overcome so much.  In fact, at that point I would probably be holy enough that I would not be using any of the products that you mention.

Now, that being said, you should always follow YOUR conscience.  If you do not engage in those activities, good.  And don't start.  However, others around you fall into that "mote and beam" issue that Jesus mentions.  If that is the worst thing your friends do, you have some pretty good friends.  As to telling other people telling people to obey the law; I always ask those kind of people to see their badge.  If they don't have one, I pretty much tell them to mind their own business.  Putting their nose in mine may not be good for their health.
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« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2011, 12:28:04 PM »

Copyright is a Western European and North American innovation and makes little sense to most of the Orthodox world. It may be enshrined in law due to the pressure of a few strong nations -- raising a debate about the Christian duty to obey unjust laws -- but in itself it is not immoral to copy artistic works, for this is how Orthodox Christians maintained a literary canon and had access to entertainment for well over a thousand years.

And 'round these parts, it's very common for Orthodox monasteries and church shops to copy and sell liturgical music recordings and monastery tourism DVDs without authorization from the copyright holder. When I've pointed out to monks that this is in fact illegal, they either laugh and say such a law is too stupid to follow, or they look at me like I'm from Mars.

I thought that a game's software license agreement usually had a provision that one is not to lend the product.

EULAs often make stipulations that are of very dubious enforceability.

While copyright is in fact a fairly modern and (in my opinion) stupid - espeically when it gets to where it is a hundred years before it is not under copyright - idea, this does not change the fact that it is the law and it is immoral to violate the law unless the law itself is a sin (something like "You must have an abortion if you already have three children" would be an exampel of this).
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« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2011, 01:33:44 PM »

And 'round these parts, it's very common for Orthodox monasteries and church shops to copy and sell liturgical music recordings and monastery tourism DVDs without authorization from the copyright holder. When I've pointed out to monks that this is in fact illegal, they either laugh and say such a law is too stupid to follow, or they look at me like I'm from Mars.
I'm surprised that any monk would do that. Is a law being "stupid" really justification for disobeying it?

But, to get back to your original question about the EULA, I would be interested to know if there is any church teaching regarding breach of contract.
Isn't it a sin to break a contract you've agreed to? "But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one" (Mt. 5:37).

Now, that being said, you should always follow YOUR conscience.  If you do not engage in those activities, good.  And don't start.  However, others around you fall into that "mote and beam" issue that Jesus mentions.  If that is the worst thing your friends do, you have some pretty good friends.  As to telling other people telling people to obey the law; I always ask those kind of people to see their badge.  If they don't have one, I pretty much tell them to mind their own business.  Putting their nose in mine may not be good for their health.
Aren't you supposed to gently correct people who are sinning?
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« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2011, 03:15:36 PM »

Quote from: William
But, to get back to your original question about the EULA, I would be interested to know if there is any church teaching regarding breach of contract.
Isn't it a sin to break a contract you've agreed to? "But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one" (Mt. 5:37).

I don't consider it to be. For example, there is such a thing as efficient breach. Here is an illustration:

You and I make a contract that you will sell me scrap metal for $100/lb. After we make the contract, but before delivery, the price of scrap metal goes to $5,000/lb. If you stick with this contract, you will lose hundreds of thousands of dollars and go out of business. So, it makes sense for you to not perform the contract. Of course, you would owe me whatever profit I might have made if the deal had gone through as planned, but your breach was the smart thing to do.

More generally, every obligation to pay money is a contract. According to you, is it a sin for a person to file for bankruptcy and thereby wipe out their debts?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 03:21:02 PM by Sauron » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2011, 03:18:59 PM »

  As to telling other people telling people to obey the law; I always ask those kind of people to see their badge.  If they don't have one, I pretty much tell them to mind their own business.  Putting their nose in mine may not be good for their health.

And your peculiar brand of Orthodox Christian insight rears it's head again.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2011, 03:21:45 PM »

My priest has told me in no uncertain terms that copyright infringement is a sin, because it is a violation of the secular laws of our country (right or wrong—I happen to agree with CRCulver on principle). Christians are commanded to obey the law unless it violates the laws of Christ and the Church, which copyright does not do.

But as others have said, it's not necessarily your job to police your friends. It doesn't always hurt to educate people, though, if they are ignorant of such laws.
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« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2011, 04:52:24 PM »

Aren't you supposed to gently correct people who are sinning?

I suppose if that is what you want to do, then correct away.
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« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2011, 05:01:21 PM »

  As to telling other people telling people to obey the law; I always ask those kind of people to see their badge.  If they don't have one, I pretty much tell them to mind their own business.  Putting their nose in mine may not be good for their health.

And your peculiar brand of Orthodox Christian insight rears it's head again.  Roll Eyes

Oh, I see.  Telling people they are sinning is OK.  Warning them that they may get hurt is not?  I have found that most people who go around telling other people their problems have enough skeletons in their closet, usually more than the person they are correcting.  They tend not to be very happy when you open the closet for them since it usually gets them into trouble more than anything that you were doing at the time.  But then again, maybe means that I come into contact with a different breed of "holier than thou" people than you do.
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« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2011, 05:35:17 PM »

Quote from: William
But, to get back to your original question about the EULA, I would be interested to know if there is any church teaching regarding breach of contract.
Isn't it a sin to break a contract you've agreed to? "But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one" (Mt. 5:37).

I don't consider it to be. For example, there is such a thing as efficient breach. Here is an illustration:

You and I make a contract that you will sell me scrap metal for $100/lb. After we make the contract, but before delivery, the price of scrap metal goes to $5,000/lb. If you stick with this contract, you will lose hundreds of thousands of dollars and go out of business. So, it makes sense for you to not perform the contract. Of course, you would owe me whatever profit I might have made if the deal had gone through as planned, but your breach was the smart thing to do.

More generally, every obligation to pay money is a contract. According to you, is it a sin for a person to file for bankruptcy and thereby wipe out their debts?


I dont see how a EULA can be a valid agreement (contract) when the details are inside the packaging of the software and it is not returnable once the package is opened.
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« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2011, 05:54:31 PM »

I would tend to agree
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« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2011, 06:01:30 PM »

Quote from: William
But, to get back to your original question about the EULA, I would be interested to know if there is any church teaching regarding breach of contract.
Isn't it a sin to break a contract you've agreed to? "But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one" (Mt. 5:37).

I don't consider it to be. For example, there is such a thing as efficient breach. Here is an illustration:

You and I make a contract that you will sell me scrap metal for $100/lb. After we make the contract, but before delivery, the price of scrap metal goes to $5,000/lb. If you stick with this contract, you will lose hundreds of thousands of dollars and go out of business. So, it makes sense for you to not perform the contract. Of course, you would owe me whatever profit I might have made if the deal had gone through as planned, but your breach was the smart thing to do.

More generally, every obligation to pay money is a contract. According to you, is it a sin for a person to file for bankruptcy and thereby wipe out their debts?


I dont see how a EULA can be a valid agreement (contract) when the details are inside the packaging of the software and it is not returnable once the package is opened.

If you read the EULA, you will find that it has provisions for the product to be returned in the event one does not agree with the terms of the EULA.

I do find EULAs rather ridiculous these days. As disclosure for myself, I legally purchased a copy of Mac OS X, but I am in breach of it because I installed in on a computer that I built myself, rather than on Apple hardware. I haven't given away copies or otherwise "pirated" it, but somehow Apple doesn't like me installing it on a homemade computer.
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« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2011, 06:30:36 PM »

  As to telling other people telling people to obey the law; I always ask those kind of people to see their badge.  If they don't have one, I pretty much tell them to mind their own business.  Putting their nose in mine may not be good for their health.

And your peculiar brand of Orthodox Christian insight rears it's head again.  Roll Eyes

Oh, I see.  Telling people they are sinning is OK.  Warning them that they may get hurt is not?  I have found that most people who go around telling other people their problems have enough skeletons in their closet, usually more than the person they are correcting.  They tend not to be very happy when you open the closet for them since it usually gets them into trouble more than anything that you were doing at the time.  But then again, maybe means that I come into contact with a different breed of "holier than thou" people than you do.

I'm no fan of the telling people they're sinning folk, but I'm don't think your response was filtered for what the OP was asking.  I don't think it's the warning people that they may get hurt that is this problem.
It didn't seem you were referring to them getting spiritually hurt, and that the person inflicting the hurt would be you.  We've discussed the validity of self-defense in the context of Christian teaching, but I'm pretty sure that hurting people who are prying or annoying a bit too much isn't what we're called to do.

That said, I think you are probably right about the different breed of "holier than thou" people.  I seem to have been blessed by not running into many of the horrid sort.  I hear about them a lot, but usually only see them on the TV.  I am grateful for that, and truth be told, I'm confident I would have a similar response as you.
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« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2011, 06:57:14 PM »

perhaps if you are serious about "religion," you could spend your time more profitably than
by playing video games ...

Forgive me, but I don't think your retort was helpful in the slightest. This is not amishvolk.net. 

Dies ist nicht der amishvolk.net Site? Ach du lieber! Ich habe in mit einem Bündel von jenen orthodoxen! Mein schlechtes ....

This is not amishvolk.net? Your kiddin me, right? Then what is it-orthodoxvideogameplayers.net? I guess I am in da wrong joint! And, forgive me also! Your remark was very helpful-even probably much more helpful than you may have oiginally thought! Better than echo location!
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« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2011, 07:01:00 PM »

perhaps if you are serious about "religion," you could spend your time more profitably than
by playing video games ...

Forgive me, but I don't think your retort was helpful in the slightest. This is not amishvolk.net. 

Dies ist nicht der amishvolk.net Site? Ach du lieber! Ich habe in mit einem Bündel von jenen orthodoxen! Mein schlechtes ....

This is not amishvolk.net? Your kiddin me, right? Then what is it-orthodoxvideogameplayers.net? I guess I am in da wrong joint! And, forgive me also! Your remark was very helpful-even probably much more helpful than you may have oiginally thought! Better than echo location!

When I was a young tot, there was a kid in my school whose parents wouldn't let him watch tv, see movies, celebrate birthdays, or wear shorts.

Jimmy, it's been a long time. How have you been?
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« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2011, 07:16:57 PM »

Quote from: William
But, to get back to your original question about the EULA, I would be interested to know if there is any church teaching regarding breach of contract.
Isn't it a sin to break a contract you've agreed to? "But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one" (Mt. 5:37).

I don't consider it to be. For example, there is such a thing as efficient breach. Here is an illustration:

You and I make a contract that you will sell me scrap metal for $100/lb. After we make the contract, but before delivery, the price of scrap metal goes to $5,000/lb. If you stick with this contract, you will lose hundreds of thousands of dollars and go out of business. So, it makes sense for you to not perform the contract. Of course, you would owe me whatever profit I might have made if the deal had gone through as planned, but your breach was the smart thing to do.

More generally, every obligation to pay money is a contract. According to you, is it a sin for a person to file for bankruptcy and thereby wipe out their debts?


I dont see how a EULA can be a valid agreement (contract) when the details are inside the packaging of the software and it is not returnable once the package is opened.

If you read the EULA, you will find that it has provisions for the product to be returned in the event one does not agree with the terms of the EULA.

I do find EULAs rather ridiculous these days. As disclosure for myself, I legally purchased a copy of Mac OS X, but I am in breach of it because I installed in on a computer that I built myself, rather than on Apple hardware. I haven't given away copies or otherwise "pirated" it, but somehow Apple doesn't like me installing it on a homemade computer.


Well of course not, it means less money for Apple.  I've never understood why some people seem to think they're so much better than Microsoft...
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« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2011, 07:40:06 PM »

If you read the EULA, you will find that it has provisions for the product to be returned in the event one does not agree with the terms of the EULA.

I do find EULAs rather ridiculous these days. As disclosure for myself, I legally purchased a copy of Mac OS X, but I am in breach of it because I installed in on a computer that I built myself, rather than on Apple hardware. I haven't given away copies or otherwise "pirated" it, but somehow Apple doesn't like me installing it on a homemade computer.


Well of course not, it means less money for Apple.  I've never understood why some people seem to think they're so much better than Microsoft...

It also may interest you to know that the iTunes EULA states, in part, "You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of missiles, or nuclear, chemical or biological weapons." Well, guess what, Jobs? If I wish to use iTunes to produce chemical weapons, that is my prerogative!
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« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2011, 07:47:46 PM »

Quote from: William
But, to get back to your original question about the EULA, I would be interested to know if there is any church teaching regarding breach of contract.
Isn't it a sin to break a contract you've agreed to? "But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one" (Mt. 5:37).

I don't consider it to be. For example, there is such a thing as efficient breach. Here is an illustration:

You and I make a contract that you will sell me scrap metal for $100/lb. After we make the contract, but before delivery, the price of scrap metal goes to $5,000/lb. If you stick with this contract, you will lose hundreds of thousands of dollars and go out of business. So, it makes sense for you to not perform the contract. Of course, you would owe me whatever profit I might have made if the deal had gone through as planned, but your breach was the smart thing to do.

More generally, every obligation to pay money is a contract. According to you, is it a sin for a person to file for bankruptcy and thereby wipe out their debts?


I dont see how a EULA can be a valid agreement (contract) when the details are inside the packaging of the software and it is not returnable once the package is opened.

If you read the EULA, you will find that it has provisions for the product to be returned in the event one does not agree with the terms of the EULA.

I do find EULAs rather ridiculous these days. As disclosure for myself, I legally purchased a copy of Mac OS X, but I am in breach of it because I installed in on a computer that I built myself, rather than on Apple hardware. I haven't given away copies or otherwise "pirated" it, but somehow Apple doesn't like me installing it on a homemade computer.


The return provisions would be located in the box with the rest of the EULA?  That does not solve the problem of me not being able to read the EULA before purchasing.  
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« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2011, 07:59:31 PM »

If you read the EULA, you will find that it has provisions for the product to be returned in the event one does not agree with the terms of the EULA.

I do find EULAs rather ridiculous these days. As disclosure for myself, I legally purchased a copy of Mac OS X, but I am in breach of it because I installed in on a computer that I built myself, rather than on Apple hardware. I haven't given away copies or otherwise "pirated" it, but somehow Apple doesn't like me installing it on a homemade computer.


Well of course not, it means less money for Apple.  I've never understood why some people seem to think they're so much better than Microsoft...

It also may interest you to know that the iTunes EULA states, in part, "You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of missiles, or nuclear, chemical or biological weapons." Well, guess what, Jobs? If I wish to use iTunes to produce chemical weapons, that is my prerogative!
It had never even crossed my mind I might be able to use Itunes to make missiles ad nuclear weapons.  You know, I always have been a strong supporter of the second amendment...
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« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2011, 08:02:52 PM »

If you read the EULA, you will find that it has provisions for the product to be returned in the event one does not agree with the terms of the EULA.

I do find EULAs rather ridiculous these days. As disclosure for myself, I legally purchased a copy of Mac OS X, but I am in breach of it because I installed in on a computer that I built myself, rather than on Apple hardware. I haven't given away copies or otherwise "pirated" it, but somehow Apple doesn't like me installing it on a homemade computer.


The return provisions would be located in the box with the rest of the EULA?  That does not solve the problem of me not being able to read the EULA before purchasing.  

There is no problem because the provision is there all the same. You have no damages.

Although, if it is really important to you, you could always request a copy of the EULA from the manufacturer before purchasing. It is common for software publishers to post their EULAs on their web sites. For example:
http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/legal/wow_tou.html

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« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2011, 09:33:01 PM »

Quote from: William
But, to get back to your original question about the EULA, I would be interested to know if there is any church teaching regarding breach of contract.
Isn't it a sin to break a contract you've agreed to? "But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one" (Mt. 5:37).

I don't consider it to be. For example, there is such a thing as efficient breach. Here is an illustration:

You and I make a contract that you will sell me scrap metal for $100/lb. After we make the contract, but before delivery, the price of scrap metal goes to $5,000/lb. If you stick with this contract, you will lose hundreds of thousands of dollars and go out of business. So, it makes sense for you to not perform the contract. Of course, you would owe me whatever profit I might have made if the deal had gone through as planned, but your breach was the smart thing to do.

More generally, every obligation to pay money is a contract. According to you, is it a sin for a person to file for bankruptcy and thereby wipe out their debts?
Those seem like pretty legit reasons to violate the EULA. What legit reason is there for lending a game? One's livelihood does not depend on it.
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« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2011, 09:36:43 PM »

Quote from: William
But, to get back to your original question about the EULA, I would be interested to know if there is any church teaching regarding breach of contract.
Isn't it a sin to break a contract you've agreed to? "But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one" (Mt. 5:37).

I don't consider it to be. For example, there is such a thing as efficient breach. Here is an illustration:

You and I make a contract that you will sell me scrap metal for $100/lb. After we make the contract, but before delivery, the price of scrap metal goes to $5,000/lb. If you stick with this contract, you will lose hundreds of thousands of dollars and go out of business. So, it makes sense for you to not perform the contract. Of course, you would owe me whatever profit I might have made if the deal had gone through as planned, but your breach was the smart thing to do.

More generally, every obligation to pay money is a contract. According to you, is it a sin for a person to file for bankruptcy and thereby wipe out their debts?
Those seem like pretty legit reasons to violate the EULA. What legit reason is there for lending a game? One's livelihood does not depend on it.

What is a legitimate reason for lending a book?

To answer your question, maybe it allows you (or a friend) to "try before you buy". Maybe it is because I deal with breach of contract matters every day, but I do not see a sin in breach of contract. And again, how has anyone been damaged by the lending of a video game? As I said earlier, not every breach is a real breach. There must be damages.
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« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2011, 09:45:02 PM »

What is a legitimate reason for lending a book?
Books do not have EULAs.
Quote
To answer your question, maybe it allows you (or a friend) to "try before you buy".
That's not what my friends borrow games for. It's more of a "play without paying" type of thing. For example, a friend of mine lent Resident Evil 5 to another friend for about a month or so. That gave him time to get the achievements and beat the campaign. He did not purchase the game after he returned it.
Quote
Maybe it is because I deal with breach of contract matters every day, but I do not see a sin in breach of contract. And again, how has anyone been damaged by the lending of a video game? As I said earlier, not every breach is a real breach. There must be damages.
It allows people to use a product without paying for it.
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« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2011, 09:57:42 PM »

What is a legitimate reason for lending a book?
Books do not have EULAs.

So what's your point? Remember, breach of a EULA is not "breaking the law". And, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, some courts have found that the first-sale doctrine applies to software, which means you can lend it despite the EULA because the EULA is unenforceable as to this point.

Let me explain this as a general matter. Not every contract you can think of is enforceable. For example, a contract to restrain trade, or a contract to kill someone. If you were to hire a hitman and then change your mind, he could not sue you for the fee because such a contract is not enforceable. Similarly, some courts have found that EULAs that prohibit lending are not enforceable as to that provision because of the first-sale doctrine of copyright law.

Quote
Quote
To answer your question, maybe it allows you (or a friend) to "try before you buy".
That's not what my friends borrow games for. It's more of a "play without paying" type of thing. For example, a friend of mine lent Resident Evil 5 to another friend for about a month or so. That gave him time to get the achievements and beat the campaign. He did not purchase the game after he returned it.

I am still having a problem seeing the issue here. I lend and give away away books all the time.

Quote
Quote
Maybe it is because I deal with breach of contract matters every day, but I do not see a sin in breach of contract. And again, how has anyone been damaged by the lending of a video game? As I said earlier, not every breach is a real breach. There must be damages.
It allows people to use a product without paying for it.

Have you heard of a library? Just because someone is using a product does not mean that something wrong has happened.

Let me use a better example than a library. There is nothing to prevent you from walking into a bookstore and reading an entire book or magazine cover to cover. You need not be sneaky about it. In fact, many bookstores provide soft chairs and cafes just for this purpose. They *want* you to sit around and read, but you will never pay a dime to the author. Show me where something wrong has happened.
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« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2011, 10:02:09 PM »

in addition, the main huge public library near me loans out XBOX 360 video games to anyone with a library card, same as a book
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« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2011, 10:09:24 PM »

Similarly, some courts have found that EULAs that prohibit lending are not enforceable as to that provision because of the first-sale doctrine of copyright law.
If it's not too much trouble, would you mind providing some references?
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« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2011, 10:12:50 PM »

  As to telling other people telling people to obey the law; I always ask those kind of people to see their badge.  If they don't have one, I pretty much tell them to mind their own business.  Putting their nose in mine may not be good for their health.

And your peculiar brand of Orthodox Christian insight rears it's head again.  Roll Eyes

Oh, I see.  Telling people they are sinning is OK.  Warning them that they may get hurt is not?  I have found that most people who go around telling other people their problems have enough skeletons in their closet, usually more than the person they are correcting.  They tend not to be very happy when you open the closet for them since it usually gets them into trouble more than anything that you were doing at the time.  But then again, maybe means that I come into contact with a different breed of "holier than thou" people than you do.

I'm no fan of the telling people they're sinning folk, but I'm don't think your response was filtered for what the OP was asking.  I don't think it's the warning people that they may get hurt that is this problem.
It didn't seem you were referring to them getting spiritually hurt, and that the person inflicting the hurt would be you.  We've discussed the validity of self-defense in the context of Christian teaching, but I'm pretty sure that hurting people who are prying or annoying a bit too much isn't what we're called to do.

That said, I think you are probably right about the different breed of "holier than thou" people.  I seem to have been blessed by not running into many of the horrid sort.  I hear about them a lot, but usually only see them on the TV.  I am grateful for that, and truth be told, I'm confident I would have a similar response as you.

Let me give you an example of what I am talking about, from real life.

Where I work, we have (had, in one case) a couple of security officers that found it their duty to nit pick and report every little thing.  Of course, this was a matter of "integrity" for them.  I told them that unless they were perfect, they may want to lighten up.  Their response?  "Are you telling us to overlook violations?  That is against the law!"  OK, suit yourself.  Well, lo and behold, one Mr. Tattletale was seen looking both was to make sure nobody was looking before he willfully violated a procedure.  Unfortunately for him, the two people that he did not see were two that he had gotten in trouble in the past.  The Company fired him.  As a senior officer in the Union, I negotiated a 30 day suspension and one year demotion.  He got to keep his job.  One year later he did the same thing.  I did not defend him and he is no longer employed.  Both offenses were ones that someone may have overlooked or may have dealt with differently had he not been such a tattletale.  The other officer was also one who could not wait to point out other's faults.  When he was caught in a matter, it cost him a 30 day suspension.  None of the people these guys got into trouble ever got into near that much trouble.

As to me dealing it out?  You bet.  I had a supervisor that did not particularly like me because of an altercation that I had with his drinking buddy.  My next evaluation was full of trumped up charges and low ratings.  I opened the book that keep and read off every time that he came into work with alcohol on his breath, as well as other infractions.  We came to a mutual understanding that everything had been a big misunderstanding and my evaluation was changed to a more accurate revision.  After that, people steered well clear of me.  I have a policy of seeing nothing and hearing nothing unless it is too big for me to ignore, or unless someone is after me.  This is what I mean by "putting your nose in my business may not be good for your health".  I am in a position to know far more about their faults than they are of mine.  However, it is my policy to overlook and forgive everything that I can since I have been forgiven much - both on this earth and above.  I have little tolerance for those who do not have this policy and make it their life duty to point out other people's faults.  It is a form of deterrence.  I let people know (if I need to) that I will do what is needed to defend myself (yes, including using deadly force if necessary and in accordance with the law).  I may turn the other cheek, but I am not going to let many people know that.

Yes, my brand of Orthodoxy is rather peculiar.  But then again, I was a heretic for twice as long as I have been Orthodox. 

 
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« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2011, 10:21:10 PM »

Similarly, some courts have found that EULAs that prohibit lending are not enforceable as to that provision because of the first-sale doctrine of copyright law.
If it's not too much trouble, would you mind providing some references?

This case has a very good discussion of the relationship between EULAs and federal copyright law:
http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/metaschool/fisher/contract/cases/step.htm

It is a federal appellate court opinion, so it is not for layman. I hope you enjoy in-depth discussion of Article 2 UCC sales!
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« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2011, 10:45:06 PM »

Similarly, some courts have found that EULAs that prohibit lending are not enforceable as to that provision because of the first-sale doctrine of copyright law.
If it's not too much trouble, would you mind providing some references?

This case has a very good discussion of the relationship between EULAs and federal copyright law:
http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/metaschool/fisher/contract/cases/step.htm

It is a federal appellate court opinion, so it is not for layman. I hope you enjoy in-depth discussion of Article 2 UCC sales!
Thank you, Sauron. This discussion has been enlightening and you've been very helpful.

Back to the original point: Where do we draw the line between turning a sinner from the error of his way and self-righteous scrupulosity?
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« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2011, 10:54:18 PM »

I hope you get what I am saying with this. WE cannot turn the sinner from his error. We can offer words of correction, prayer, guidance. But ultimately, the sinner makes his own choice. There a bunch of verses in Proverbs about rebuking and correction, but they are mostly about the one receiving the rebuke. I really can't find it right now, but there is also a verse in the Epistles about correcting someone three times.

I think that once you keep harping on it (and we should know when that happens), you've crossed the line. A sinner has the freedom to remain a sinner, unluckily for us. That doesn't mean that we cannot do anything, but as I used to say to my friends, "We can't save them, only God can."
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« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2011, 11:54:06 PM »

  This is what I mean by "putting your nose in my business may not be good for your health".

Thanks for the explanation; it made a lot more sense in that context.
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« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2011, 04:56:41 AM »

This has been a problem ever since I got serious about religion. I'm not willing to illegally download music, watch pirated movies, watch TV shows online unless uploaded by someone with the legal right to do so, or borrow or lend videogames. Most (read: all) of my friends see this stuff as "no big deal" and do it anyway. Am I obligated to tell them they ought to obey the law? Or can I keep my mouth shut as long as I don't do anything illegal myself?

Hi William, a fellow gamer here.
Just be a good example. If people ask, say that you don't do those things because you don't think it's right.

Leave it up to them, to be inspired.

Oh, and the amount of time and energy people put into being a Football supporter, I think it's very rich for people to criticise gamers.
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« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2011, 05:59:21 AM »

Maybe it is because I deal with breach of contract matters every day, but I do not see a sin in breach of contract. And again, how has anyone been damaged by the lending of a video game? As I said earlier, not every breach is a real breach. There must be damages.
It allows people to use a product without paying for it.

If I lend you a vase to put flowers in am I committing a sin?

Intellectual property rights do not extend that far, thankfully.
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« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2011, 06:01:21 AM »

perhaps if you are serious about "religion," you could spend your time more profitably than
by playing video games ...

'Cos giving people a hard time over an internet forum is self-evidently godly?
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« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2011, 08:44:09 PM »

Maybe it is because I deal with breach of contract matters every day, but I do not see a sin in breach of contract. And again, how has anyone been damaged by the lending of a video game? As I said earlier, not every breach is a real breach. There must be damages.
It allows people to use a product without paying for it.

If I lend you a vase to put flowers in am I committing a sin?
Maybe if you explicitly agreed not to do so when you bought said vase.
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« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2011, 09:33:14 PM »

Maybe it is because I deal with breach of contract matters every day, but I do not see a sin in breach of contract. And again, how has anyone been damaged by the lending of a video game? As I said earlier, not every breach is a real breach. There must be damages.
It allows people to use a product without paying for it.

If I lend you a vase to put flowers in am I committing a sin?
Maybe if you explicitly agreed not to do so when you bought said vase.

But do we make explicit promises like this when we buy video games or CDs or art prints?

Perhaps there are some implicit promises embedded in such purchases?
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« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2012, 04:41:33 PM »

Maybe it is because I deal with breach of contract matters every day, but I do not see a sin in breach of contract. And again, how has anyone been damaged by the lending of a video game? As I said earlier, not every breach is a real breach. There must be damages.
It allows people to use a product without paying for it.

If I lend you a vase to put flowers in am I committing a sin?
Maybe if you explicitly agreed not to do so when you bought said vase.

But do we make explicit promises like this when we buy video games or CDs or art prints?

Perhaps there are some implicit promises embedded in such purchases?

I think the promise referred to is something along the lines of:

On the package, it says "By buying this product, you agree to be Bill Gates's towel boy in his mansion three days a week, never to grow a beard..."

Therefore if you buy the product, you have to do it.

A case can be made that by buying the product, you have agreed to the terms. I'm not sure I accept that case. I don't see how you can make a case that that agreement is "explicit."

On the other hand, the agreement you usually have to make to install the software is quite explicit. By that point, however, it might be considered coerced.
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