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Author Topic: "Theotokos" in Dutch  (Read 1711 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: June 03, 2011, 11:57:38 AM »

From various sources online, I've seen both "Moeder Gods" and "Godbaarster". Which of these is the equivalent of "Theotokos"?

Thanks  Smiley
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« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2011, 12:04:30 PM »

The former is "Mother of God" in English while the latter is "Godbearer".  But that's probably pretty obvious.

Much like the debate in English over which one is equivalent, the latter is a more literal translation while the former would probably be more pleasing to the Dutch ear.
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« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2011, 01:17:03 PM »

The former is "Mother of God" in English while the latter is "Godbearer".  But that's probably pretty obvious.

Much like the debate in English over which one is equivalent, the latter is a more literal translation while the former would probably be more pleasing to the Dutch ear.

Precies. Most of the Germanic languages are going to have this possibly false dichotomy. Godbearer is going to probably be more accurate, but stilted sounding to most ears. I think Theotokos in the end is going to be the best choice. English, especially is not afraid of loan words.

Neither are most other Germanic language speaking peoples.
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« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2011, 01:21:36 PM »

The former is "Mother of God" in English while the latter is "Godbearer".  But that's probably pretty obvious.

Much like the debate in English over which one is equivalent, the latter is a more literal translation while the former would probably be more pleasing to the Dutch ear.

Precies. Most of the Germanic languages are going to have this possibly false dichotomy. Godbearer is going to probably be more accurate, but stilted sounding to most ears. I think Theotokos in the end is going to be the best choice. English, especially is not afraid of loan words.

Neither are most other Germanic language speaking peoples.
Most Germanic languages avoid them, Icelandic being the most extreme in that.  I don't think it would sound as stilted to most Germanic ears (I speak German, and know some Dutch and Norwegian but can't say how a native would hear it, not being a native), as most other Germanic languages compound words and coin new compounds much more than English, and are MUCH less likely to take a loan than English.
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« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2011, 01:25:55 PM »

The former is "Mother of God" in English while the latter is "Godbearer".  But that's probably pretty obvious.

Much like the debate in English over which one is equivalent, the latter is a more literal translation while the former would probably be more pleasing to the Dutch ear.

Precies. Most of the Germanic languages are going to have this possibly false dichotomy. Godbearer is going to probably be more accurate, but stilted sounding to most ears. I think Theotokos in the end is going to be the best choice. English, especially is not afraid of loan words.

Neither are most other Germanic language speaking peoples.
Most Germanic languages avoid them, Icelandic being the most extreme in that.  I don't think it would sound as stilted to most Germanic ears (I speak German, and know some Dutch and Norwegian but can't say how a native would hear it, not being a native), as most other Germanic languages compound words and coin new compounds much more than English, and are MUCH less likely to take a loan than English.

Have you been to most Germanic speaking countries (except Iceland) lately? Most of the larger cities, English is nearly every fifth word. Among the youth in cities like Berlin is practically every other. The Neuneuhochdeutch is English.

The insular Icelanders are an exception.
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« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2011, 01:45:50 PM »

But German goes out of its way to create those celebrated long compound words for things when a loan word would probably suffice.  Things may be changing, but German, historically, eschews loan words.
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« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2011, 02:16:24 PM »

But German goes out of its way to create those celebrated long compound words for things when a loan word would probably suffice.  Things may be changing, but German, historically, eschews loan words.

I am sorry but this simply is not true. While they are not as open as English, German among Western European languages is much more porous. I am sure you referring to the rejection of the Latinization of many aspect of the language (medical, theological, philosophical, etc.) But I can off the top of my head think of at two dozen commonly used French words. And if you can't read French, you are going to have a hard time with a lot of 17th century German Literature.

German has embraced the popular language of the day whole heartedly since then and retains loans after the fad dies down. Today English is the "sexy cool" (that is German) language to speak. And after the incredible use of English words in day to day speech and literature dies down, they will retain many English words, with the nuance in meaning.

A great example is shopping. It used all the time in German. So is einkaufen. But they are used in slightly different ways. Even before the fever pitch of Englischliebe bzw. Americanischliebe, in the post Second World War period, Americanisms were taken from the soldiers by the youth much to the despair of their parents. 

Similarly you have many loan words in day to day Austrian dialect and standard language from the various lands that compromised the Austro-Hungarian empire.

 
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« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2011, 02:31:31 PM »


I think Theotokos in the end is going to be the best choice. English, especially is not afraid of loan words.

I hope that English will be spared the use of Theotoke.

A small treatise on Theotokos - Mother of God
by Father German the Abbot of Old Forge

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,27405.msg431635.html#msg431635
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« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2011, 03:19:53 PM »

orthonorm,

Fair enough.  In my defense, I was taught what I wrote by three separate German teachers, all of whom were native speakers, ranging from one born in the 1920s in Dusseldorf, one born in the 50s in Munich and one born in Berlin in the 60s.  

btw, what is the subtle difference between shopping v. einkaufen?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 03:21:15 PM by Schultz » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2011, 04:33:30 PM »

The former is "Mother of God" in English while the latter is "Godbearer".  But that's probably pretty obvious.

Much like the debate in English over which one is equivalent, the latter is a more literal translation while the former would probably be more pleasing to the Dutch ear.

Precies. Most of the Germanic languages are going to have this possibly false dichotomy. Godbearer is going to probably be more accurate, but stilted sounding to most ears. I think Theotokos in the end is going to be the best choice. English, especially is not afraid of loan words.

Neither are most other Germanic language speaking peoples.
Most Germanic languages avoid them, Icelandic being the most extreme in that.  I don't think it would sound as stilted to most Germanic ears (I speak German, and know some Dutch and Norwegian but can't say how a native would hear it, not being a native), as most other Germanic languages compound words and coin new compounds much more than English, and are MUCH less likely to take a loan than English.

Have you been to most Germanic speaking countries (except Iceland) lately

Never  been to Iceland,  but I've been to the others years ago, and English was chic then too.  But step back from the colloquial, and things change.  and the colloquial isn't what usually sticks around.
Quote
Most of the larger cities, English is nearly every fifth word. Among the youth in cities like Berlin is practically every other. The Neuneuhochdeutch is English.

The insular Icelanders are an exception.
They aren't that insular: they are the per capita champs at reading, and most of it isn't in Icelandic.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 04:34:10 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2011, 06:20:59 PM »

orthonorm,

Fair enough.  In my defense, I was taught what I wrote by three separate German teachers, all of whom were native speakers, ranging from one born in the 1920s in Dusseldorf, one born in the 50s in Munich and one born in Berlin in the 60s.  

btw, what is the subtle difference between shopping v. einkaufen?

Shopping connotes going to look around without a general sense of what you want to buy. Consumption as passing time.

Einkaufen connotes going with a strict list or idea of what you want to purchase.

Younger folks use the former pretty much the way we often do, when we go shopping for nothing in particular. Going to the mall and looking around to perhaps spend "disposable" income.

Einkaufen used more by older folks. They don't shop. Shopping ain't German. The older population say the word as if it were contemptible. Younger folks use einkaufen as well to mean it in the sense I described. If you asked the average German speaker the difference, they might not give this answer, but like many speakers of any language most people don't give much thought to how they use it.

Oh yeah, in the Germanistik department I was in, guess what word every Professor used to mean native speaker, Native Speaker. Muttersprachler is not even used in some German language texts for German language instruction.

On my way home, I realized that pretty the point I am making is even stronger. I was hard pressed to be able to come with a run of the conversation that didn't contain a loan word.

Oh well. But ialmisry is correct and is echoing what I said, the use of English is diminish but much will linger, just as French, Latin, Italian, Arabic, Hungarian, etc. have.
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« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2012, 04:25:45 AM »

From various sources online, I've seen both "Moeder Gods" and "Godbaarster". Which of these is the equivalent of "Theotokos"?

Thanks  Smiley

If anyone still cares, "Godbaarster" I've never heard or read except as a clarification of what Theotokos litterally means. "Moeder Gods" is almost always used.

Just my two cents as a dutchman.

also: first post  Smiley
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« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2012, 07:22:34 AM »

In German, Gottesgebärerin is normally used.
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« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2012, 11:16:35 AM »

I checked it, Dutch Orthodox sources seem to prefer Moeder Gods as well.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 11:21:20 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2012, 02:30:47 PM »

I checked it, Dutch Orthodox sources seem to prefer Moeder Gods as well.

On related terms
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,38760.msg789646.html#msg789646
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,42150.msg690506/topicseen.html#msg690506
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,27405.msg519487.html#msg519487
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2012, 05:01:44 AM »

The MP has a parish called 'Parochie Bescherming van de Moeder Gods'  in Brussels and a monastery called 'Moeder Gods, troosteres' in West-Flanders.

The EP has a parish called 'Parochie van de Boodschap van de Moeder Gods' in Antwerp and a parish called 'Parochie van de Ontslaping van de Moeder Gods' in Verviers, Belgium. In the Netherlands the EP has a monastery called 'Geboorte van de Moeder Gods'.

And these are just some examples. The Orthodox in dutch-speaking countries seem to favour Moeder Gods over Godsbaarster. Here's a list of parishes and jurisdictions in Belgium: http://www.orthodoxia.be/NLkerk/04parochies.html and here's a list of parishes in the Netherlands: http://www.orthodoxen.nl/kerken.php
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 05:07:27 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

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