Author Topic: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?  (Read 3730 times)

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Offline Inquisitor

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Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« on: June 02, 2011, 02:05:35 PM »
Is there?

Offline biro

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2011, 02:06:36 PM »
 ???

I'm sorry, can you be a little more specific?

Offline mike

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2011, 02:17:35 PM »
Yes, it is. You have 3 Patriarchs of Antioch  (Melkite, Syriac and Maronite) and two Patriarchs of Alexandria (Melkite and Coptic) and of Jerusalem (Latin and Melkite) so you shoul better have one.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 02:22:33 PM by Michał Kalina »
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2011, 02:19:56 PM »
This could be a meaningful topic. Right now, we have no idea what the question is.

Offline Inquisitor

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2011, 02:27:21 PM »
If the church is One, why many independent patriarchs?

Offline mike

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2011, 02:37:29 PM »
If the church is One, why many independent patriarchs?

Yes, it is. You have 3 Patriarchs of Antioch  (Melkite, Syriac and Maronite) and two Patriarchs of Alexandria (Melkite and Coptic) and of Jerusalem (Latin and Melkite) so you shoul better have one.

Maybe you'd like to answer.
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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2011, 02:38:40 PM »
If the church is One, why many independent patriarchs?

Why not direct your question to the Holy Apostles, to whom it seemed good to establish local churches, ruled by separate bishops, but in communion with one another in the Eucharist, in prayer, and in faith?
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Offline Inquisitor

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2011, 02:40:52 PM »
If the church is One, why many independent patriarchs?

Yes, it is. You have 3 Patriarchs of Antioch  (Melkite, Syriac and Maronite) and two Patriarchs of Alexandria (Melkite and Coptic) and of Jerusalem (Latin and Melkite) so you shoul better have one.

Maybe you'd like to answer.


I think that the existance of many catholic eastern patriarch is due to the fact of their own tradition but as a Latin catholic I don't understand the sectioning of the church, in many patriarchates. mainly because in the beggining it was not that way.

But in the case of EO, they all are greek tradition, and yet they are many
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 02:45:27 PM by Inquisitor »

Offline Inquisitor

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2011, 02:44:06 PM »
If the church is One, why many independent patriarchs?

Why not direct your question to the Holy Apostles, to whom it seemed good to establish local churches, ruled by separate bishops, but in communion with one another in the Eucharist, in prayer, and in faith?

The saint apostles had a primus, that primus had the last word on matters of doctrine as we can see it in the Acts of the apostles.

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2011, 02:44:41 PM »
in the beggining it was not that way.
Actually, it was.

as a Latin catholic I don understant the sectioning of the church, in many patriarchates.
The church is not sectioned, it is headed on earth by many bishops who share one faith. Patriarchs are Bishops of important cities.
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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2011, 02:45:09 PM »
The saint apostles had a primus, that primus had the last word on matters of doctrine as we can see it in the Acts of the apostles.
No. And besides, a Primus and a Supremus are not the same. Constantinople Patriarch is our Primus but is not universally powerful.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 02:45:31 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline mike

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2011, 02:46:46 PM »
I think that the existance of many catholic eastern patriarch is due to the fact of their own tradition but as a Latin catholic I don understant the sectioning of the church, in many patriarchates. mainly because in the beggining it was not that way.

In the Roman Catholic Church there are also multiple Patriarchs:
Patriarch of the East Indies
Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem
Patriarch of Lisbon
Patriarch of Venice
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 02:47:08 PM by Michał Kalina »
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2011, 02:47:12 PM »
If the church is One, why many independent patriarchs?

Yes, that is the Roman Catholic approach and certainly is a logical one from Rome's perspective. The problem is it just does not follow the ecclesiology of the Church, which was and is a confederation of local churches. This situation does not conflict with the equally important principle that the Church, in other words, the Body of Christ, is one. I suppose the bottom line here is how one defines the word "one." As I said earlier, it seems logical for the word to mean one Patriarch/Pope/Archbishop/Metropolitan (all titles of the primate of a local church). However, that would be in human terms, but the Church is not a purely human institution. Don't forget that the Roman Church herself lived under the Orthodox understanding for 800 years?

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2011, 02:51:55 PM »
If the church is One, why many independent patriarchs?

Why not direct your question to the Holy Apostles, to whom it seemed good to establish local churches, ruled by separate bishops, but in communion with one another in the Eucharist, in prayer, and in faith?

The saint apostles had a primus, that primus had the last word on matters of doctrine as we can see it in the Acts of the apostles.

I am sorry but you may have a different edition of the Acts. The last word on matters of doctrine, as expressed in my version of the Book of Acts was the Council of Jerusalem, which in a conciliar fashion decided to side with Apostle Paul rather than Apostle Peter. Furthermore, it was the Bishop of Jerusalem and President of the Council, rather than Saint Peter, who announced the decision of this Council.

Offline Inquisitor

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2011, 02:52:42 PM »
...

No it wasn't , Peter was the One who every body follow.

The many bishops in many cities was the way that Apostles organized local churches, but in the case of E.O. the patriarch is not a local bishop of a city, but is the head of a nationalistic church.

Offline mike

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2011, 02:53:49 PM »
but in the case of E.O. the patriarch is not a local bishop of a city, but is the head of a nationalistic church.

In your Church too. Who the head of Vatican is?
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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2011, 02:55:50 PM »
...

No it wasn't , Peter was the One who every body follow.
And Peter and Paul founded Antioch first so Antiochians are Supreme Primate of Church, right?

but is the head of a nationalistic church.
Nationalistic? Silly.

Besides, you don't understand what it means to be the head of a church, to you, that means Patriarchs are just minipopes who rule smaller territories.


But they are not the only bishops there, you know. And EO Bishops aren't puppets.
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Offline Inquisitor

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2011, 02:56:26 PM »
I think that the existance of many catholic eastern patriarch is due to the fact of their own tradition but as a Latin catholic I don understant the sectioning of the church, in many patriarchates. mainly because in the beggining it was not that way.

In the Roman Catholic Church there are also multiple Patriarchs:
Patriarch of the East Indies
Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem
Patriarch of Lisbon
Patriarch of Venice

In the Latin Church to be patriarch is not a position but a honor title. their jurisdictions are as large as a dioceses.

Offline Inquisitor

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2011, 02:57:29 PM »
but in the case of E.O. the patriarch is not a local bishop of a city, but is the head of a nationalistic church.

In your Church too. Who the head of Vatican is?

Am I a Vatican Citizen?,

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2011, 02:57:47 PM »
I think that the existance of many catholic eastern patriarch is due to the fact of their own tradition but as a Latin catholic I don understant the sectioning of the church, in many patriarchates. mainly because in the beggining it was not that way.

In the Roman Catholic Church there are also multiple Patriarchs:
Patriarch of the East Indies
Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem
Patriarch of Lisbon
Patriarch of Venice
In the Orthodox Church to be Pope is not a position but a honor title. their jurisdictions are as large as a dioceses.
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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2011, 02:58:12 PM »
but in the case of E.O. the patriarch is not a local bishop of a city, but is the head of a nationalistic church.

In your Church too. Who the head of Vatican is?

Am I a Vatican Citizen?,
Am I an Antiochian Citizen?
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2011, 02:58:43 PM »
...

No it wasn't , Peter was the One who every body follow.

The many bishops in many cities was the way that Apostles organized local churches, but in the case of E.O. the patriarch is not a local bishop of a city, but is the head of a nationalistic church.

Look here, Inquisitor, we all understand that that is the way that you were thought. No body here is trying to change your beliefs or convert you away from Roman Catholicism. However, you are in the odd position of being the champion for Papal Supremacy in an Eastern Orthodox forum. The question for us would normally be why in the world the Church of Rome believes in the heresy of Papal Supremacy and has chosen to schism from the One True Church? I apologize for having framed the situation in such stark fashion but I must tell you that you are barking the wrong tree here.

Offline bogdan

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2011, 02:59:41 PM »
The many bishops in many cities was the way that Apostles organized local churches, but in the case of E.O. the patriarch is not a local bishop of a city, but is the head of a nationalistic church.

So was the Pope of Rome, at least in the early times:



Let's not be silly and anachronistic.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 03:00:31 PM by bogdan »

Offline Inquisitor

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2011, 03:00:41 PM »
If the church is One, why many independent patriarchs?

Yes, that is the Roman Catholic approach and certainly is a logical one from Rome's perspective. The problem is it just does not follow the ecclesiology of the Church, which was and is a confederation of local churches. This situation does not conflict with the equally important principle that the Church, in other words, the Body of Christ, is one. I suppose the bottom line here is how one defines the word "one." As I said earlier, it seems logical for the word to mean one Patriarch/Pope/Archbishop/Metropolitan (all titles of the primate of a local church). However, that would be in human terms, but the Church is not a purely human institution. Don't forget that the Roman Church herself lived under the Orthodox understanding for 800 years?


No, The current Orthodox understanding was introduced years latter, before there only were petrine sees headed by Rome.

Offline Inquisitor

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2011, 03:02:49 PM »
Lunch Time, Wait a minute, besides it is like 3 against 1, just take it easy, I'll be back to you in few minutes.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 03:03:12 PM by Inquisitor »

Offline mike

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2011, 03:17:28 PM »
besides it is like 3 against

It was you who has started it. Don't get surprised.

No, The current Orthodox understanding was introduced years latter, before there only were petrine sees headed by Rome.

Like Cyprus?
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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2011, 03:19:54 PM »
No, The current Orthodox understanding was introduced years latter, before there only were petrine sees headed by Rome.
Then why did Pope Gregory Diologos say that to claim to be Universal Bishop was blasphemy?
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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2011, 03:33:16 PM »
I think that the existance of many catholic eastern patriarch is due to the fact of their own tradition but as a Latin catholic I don understant the sectioning of the church, in many patriarchates. mainly because in the beggining it was not that way.

In the Roman Catholic Church there are also multiple Patriarchs:
Patriarch of the East Indies
Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem
Patriarch of Lisbon
Patriarch of Venice

Don't forget about the Eastern Catholic  'sui juris' Patriarchs as well.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2011, 03:38:19 PM »
If the church is One, why many independent patriarchs?

Yes, that is the Roman Catholic approach and certainly is a logical one from Rome's perspective. The problem is it just does not follow the ecclesiology of the Church, which was and is a confederation of local churches. This situation does not conflict with the equally important principle that the Church, in other words, the Body of Christ, is one. I suppose the bottom line here is how one defines the word "one." As I said earlier, it seems logical for the word to mean one Patriarch/Pope/Archbishop/Metropolitan (all titles of the primate of a local church). However, that would be in human terms, but the Church is not a purely human institution. Don't forget that the Roman Church herself lived under the Orthodox understanding for 800 years?


No, The current Orthodox understanding was introduced years latter, before there only were petrine sees headed by Rome.

Interesting as your Church's learned North American theologians do not seem to share your understanding of history or Catholic ecclesiology. http://www.scoba.us/resources/orthodox-catholic/conciliarityandprimacy.html
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 03:39:11 PM by podkarpatska »

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2011, 03:40:03 PM »
No, The current Orthodox understanding was introduced years latter, before there only were petrine sees headed by Rome.
Then why did Pope Gregory Diologos say that to claim to be Universal Bishop was blasphemy?

And the forerunner of Antichrist.

The story of papal supremacy was invented in the 11th century when the papacy was the victim of a hostile takeover by a cabal of barbarians--a takeover which was, sadly, never reversed. Papal supremacy over the Church and over secular governments was the outgrowth of an entirely new policy, unseen and unheard of before. It was a heretical innovation, later passed off by papal apologists as the way things always were. All those who objected to the innovation were deposed, exiled, anathematized, killed, tricked or forced into submission. Even secular historians agree with this.
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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2011, 03:43:13 PM »
No, The current Orthodox understanding was introduced years latter, before there only were petrine sees headed by Rome.
Then why did Pope Gregory Diologos say that to claim to be Universal Bishop was blasphemy?

And the forerunner of Antichrist.
He even affirmed Orthodox Papal Primacy at the same time, explaining that while Peter was chief of the Apostles, he was not their universal despot.
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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2011, 04:03:18 PM »
No, The current Orthodox understanding was introduced years latter, before there only were petrine sees headed by Rome.
Then why did Pope Gregory Diologos say that to claim to be Universal Bishop was blasphemy?

And the forerunner of Antichrist.
He even affirmed Orthodox Papal Primacy at the same time, explaining that while Peter was chief of the Apostles, he was not their universal despot.

And neither St. Peter nor St. Gregory claimed to have authority over kings.
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Offline Inquisitor

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2011, 04:05:02 PM »
No, The current Orthodox understanding was introduced years latter, before there only were petrine sees headed by Rome.
Then why did Pope Gregory Diologos say that to claim to be Universal Bishop was blasphemy?

Would you mind to tell us what implies universal bishop?, do you know that Ecumenical meens that?, Do you know that Constantinople started to use such title and Pope rejected it by saying so?
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 04:06:08 PM by Inquisitor »

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2011, 04:06:27 PM »
do you know that Ecumenical meens that?, Do you know that Constantinople started to use such title and Pope rejected by saying so?
Yeah, I know that. But everything in Constantinople was Ecumenical (universal pertaining to the scope of the Roman Empire.) The palace chef would have been the Ecumenical chef.  8)

Clearly Gregory didn't see it that way, and his criticism of claiming Universal Bishop-hood still stands.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 04:07:02 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline Inquisitor

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2011, 04:06:51 PM »
besides it is like 3 against

It was you who has started it. Don't get surprised.

No, The current Orthodox understanding was introduced years latter, before there only were petrine sees headed by Rome.

Like Cyprus?

Is that a Petrine see?

Offline mike

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2011, 04:08:35 PM »
Would you mind to tell us what implies universal bishop?, do you know that Ecumenical meens that?, Do you know that Constantinople started to use such title and Pope rejected it by saying so?

It means but he doesn't act like one in contrary to yours.

Quote
Is that a Petrine see?
No but it was declared autocephalous in 431 what demolishes your theory.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 04:08:56 PM by Michał Kalina »
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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2011, 04:09:08 PM »
Would you mind to tell us what implies universal bishop?, do you know that Ecumenical meens that?, Do you know that Constantinople started to use such title and Pope rejected it by saying so?

It means but he doesn't act like one in contrary to yours.
^

« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 04:18:01 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2011, 04:15:18 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Before all those Ecumenism accusations get thrown out I'd just like to say, "Stop Hatin."

Now..

We have so many different Patriarchs for the same reason we have many Metropolitans, Archbishops, Bishops, Abbots, and Priests.  Simply put, we have a lot of very diverse Christians within Orthodox who have many convergent cultural, economic, political, psychological, emotional, and spiritual needs.  The Church is stratified across several layers of Apostolic Succession to fulfill the Apostolic Mission and dispensation as were Commissioned.  Now some will say we have many doctrinal, theological, or argumentative differences, and that so and so or such and such a Patriarch or Bishop is the only ONE, HOLY, APOSTOLIC, and TRUE priest of such and such Orthodox.  This is silly divisiveness and sectarianism.  Ones should be concerned with only the Orthodoxy of their own respective jurisdictions, and mind their business when it comes to others.  We should always assume the best of each other, and proffer the sincere benefit of the doubt.

I would say this, that in time when the Church is healed and reconciled in God's Grace, then we shall function as we did say before the splits in the 400s and the 1000s era, when the bishops served as equals. Realistically, it is only when folks get confused to think that the grace of Perfection applies to the clergy beyond the Mysteries themselves that things get twists into sectarianism.  Folks mistake the clergy and the Priesthood as in varying degrees of infallibility and this is where we fall.  Only the Mysteries themselves are perfect.  We should mutually respect each other so long which includes not necessarily stepping on each others toes, as it was in the distant past.

Stay Blessed,
Habte Selassie
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2011, 04:31:14 PM »
Would you mind to tell us what implies universal bishop?, do you know that Ecumenical meens that?, Do you know that Constantinople started to use such title and Pope rejected it by saying so?

It means but he doesn't act like one in contrary to yours.

Quote
Is that a Petrine see?
No but it was declared autocephalous in 431 what demolishes your theory.

In 431, Which other Patriarchates existed already?

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2011, 04:33:12 PM »
Would you mind to tell us what implies universal bishop?, do you know that Ecumenical meens that?, Do you know that Constantinople started to use such title and Pope rejected it by saying so?

It means but he doesn't act like one in contrary to yours.

Quote
Is that a Petrine see?
No but it was declared autocephalous in 431 what demolishes your theory.

Why the Patriarch of Constantinople doesn't reject tu use the title Ecumenical?

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2011, 04:46:46 PM »
In 431, Which other Patriarchates existed already?
Rome, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria.
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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2011, 04:47:47 PM »
Why the Patriarch of Constantinople doesn't reject tu use the title Ecumenical?
Because it doesn't mean he has universal jurisdiction or infallibility superpowers, it means he's the patriarch of the former imperial ecumene city.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 04:47:58 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2011, 04:48:14 PM »
In 431, Which other Patriarchates existed already?
Rome, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria.

Right, and before that?
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 04:49:47 PM by Inquisitor »

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2011, 04:48:52 PM »
Why the Patriarch of Constantinople doesn't reject tu use the title Ecumenical?
Because it doesn't mean he has universal jurisdiction or infallibility superpowers, it means he's the patriarch of the former imperial ecumene city.

So what is the point in using such tittle? not even Istambul remains Constantinople, no empire at all.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 04:49:37 PM by Inquisitor »

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2011, 04:49:44 PM »
In 431, Which other Patriarchates existed already?
Rome, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria.

Right, and beore that?

Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch. Your point?
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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #45 on: June 02, 2011, 04:50:47 PM »
Would you mind to tell us what implies universal bishop?, do you know that Ecumenical meens that?, Do you know that Constantinople started to use such title and Pope rejected it by saying so?

It means but he doesn't act like one in contrary to yours.

Quote
Is that a Petrine see?
No but it was declared autocephalous in 431 what demolishes your theory.

Why the Patriarch of Constantinople doesn't reject tu use the title Ecumenical?
Better yet, why did the Pope of Rome stop using his title Patriarch of the West?
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #46 on: June 02, 2011, 04:50:57 PM »
In 431, Which other Patriarchates existed already?
Rome, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria.

Right, and before that?
they were founded in this order by Sts. Peter and Paul, and for Alexandria St. Mark: Jerusalem, Antioch, then Rome and Alexandria.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 04:51:23 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #47 on: June 02, 2011, 04:53:47 PM »
Why the Patriarch of Constantinople doesn't reject tu use the title Ecumenical?
Because it doesn't mean he has universal jurisdiction or infallibility superpowers, it means he's the patriarch of the former imperial ecumene city.

So what is the point in using such tittle? not even Istambul remains Constantinople, no empire at all.
It's pretty much a holdover from medieval times, like how the Pope is head of the "Papal States" that no longer really exist.
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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #48 on: June 02, 2011, 04:54:25 PM »
If you enter the bull ring with a fancy suit and wave a red flag, you know what's coming next. Don't feed the trolls!

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #49 on: June 02, 2011, 04:55:52 PM »
So we reach the petrine sees, the reason for these sees to be was not that they were the capital of the empire, but PETER. All patriarchates after these three patriarchates come to exist for political reasons, not for apostolic reasons. the apostolic tradition is that patriarchates were Petrine sees, though alexandria never received Peter himself they received Mark, his envoy.

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #50 on: June 02, 2011, 04:57:24 PM »
Would you mind to tell us what implies universal bishop?, do you know that Ecumenical meens that?, Do you know that Constantinople started to use such title and Pope rejected it by saying so?

It means but he doesn't act like one in contrary to yours.

Quote
Is that a Petrine see?
No but it was declared autocephalous in 431 what demolishes your theory.

Why the Patriarch of Constantinople doesn't reject tu use the title Ecumenical?
Better yet, why did the Pope of Rome stop using his title Patriarch of the West?

Is the catholic Church confined to the West?

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #51 on: June 02, 2011, 04:58:37 PM »
So we reach the petrine sees, the reason for these sees to be was not that they were the capital of the empire, but PETER.
And Paul, but yeah.

All patriarchates after these three patriarchates come to exist for political reasons, not for apostolic reasons.

No, they came into being as new lands were evangelized and cultures changed. That's not just politics.
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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #52 on: June 02, 2011, 04:59:17 PM »
Is the catholic Church confined to the West?
Are the Russians confined to Russia?
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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #53 on: June 02, 2011, 05:00:35 PM »
Christ is ascended!
If the church is One, why many independent patriarchs?
Why did Christ, Who is One, have 12 disciples and send out the 72 Apostles?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #54 on: June 02, 2011, 05:01:58 PM »
For what it is worth, I see that our new friend has failed to address the issue of Eastern Catholic patriarchates as well as their veneration of post-schism Saints of the east.  He must be a graduate of the 'Archbishop Ireland School of East/West Intra-Catholic Sui Juris Relations.'

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #55 on: June 02, 2011, 05:08:45 PM »
Christ is ascended!
If the church is One, why many independent patriarchs?
Why did Christ, Who is One, have 12 disciples and send out the 72 Apostles?

Go to Luke 22, 31 -32

{22:31} And the Lord said: “Simon, Simon! Behold, Satan
 has asked for you, so that he may sift you like wheat.
{22:32} But I have prayed for you, so that your faith may
 not fail, and so that you, once converted, may confirm your brothers.”

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #56 on: June 02, 2011, 05:09:32 PM »
Christ is ascended!
If the church is One, why many independent patriarchs?
Why did Christ, Who is One, have 12 disciples and send out the 72 Apostles?

Go to Luke 22, 31 -32

{22:31} And the Lord said: “Simon, Simon! Behold, Satan
 has asked for you, so that he may sift you like wheat.
{22:32} But I have prayed for you, so that your faith may
 not fail, and so that you, once converted, may confirm your brothers.”


So you're a protestant?
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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #57 on: June 02, 2011, 05:10:52 PM »
For what it is worth, I see that our new friend has failed to address the issue of Eastern Catholic patriarchates as well as their veneration of post-schism Saints of the east.  He must be a graduate of the 'Archbishop Ireland School of East/West Intra-Catholic Sui Juris Relations.'

I am a Catholic, in my neighborhood there are no eastern catholics.

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #58 on: June 02, 2011, 05:11:13 PM »
Christ is ascended!
If the church is One, why many independent patriarchs?
Why did Christ, Who is One, have 12 disciples and send out the 72 Apostles?

Go to Luke 22, 31 -32

{22:31} And the Lord said: “Simon, Simon! Behold, Satan
 has asked for you, so that he may sift you like wheat.
{22:32} But I have prayed for you, so that your faith may
 not fail, and so that you, once converted, may confirm your brothers.”


So you're a protestant?

No, why?

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #59 on: June 02, 2011, 05:11:48 PM »
Christ is ascended!
If the church is One, why many independent patriarchs?
Why did Christ, Who is One, have 12 disciples and send out the 72 Apostles?

Go to Luke 22, 31 -32

{22:31} And the Lord said: “Simon, Simon! Behold, Satan
 has asked for you, so that he may sift you like wheat.
{22:32} But I have prayed for you, so that your faith may
 not fail, and so that you, once converted, may confirm your brothers.”


So you're a protestant?

No, why?

Because you're posting prooftexts.  ;)
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #60 on: June 02, 2011, 05:12:08 PM »
If the church is One, why many independent patriarchs?

Yes, it is. You have 3 Patriarchs of Antioch  (Melkite, Syriac and Maronite) and two Patriarchs of Alexandria (Melkite and Coptic) and of Jerusalem (Latin and Melkite) so you shoul better have one.

Maybe you'd like to answer.


I think that the existance of many catholic eastern patriarch is due to the fact of their own tradition but as a Latin catholic I don't understand the sectioning of the church, in many patriarchates. mainly because in the beggining it was not that way.

But in the case of EO, they all are greek tradition, and yet they are many
The NT is a Greek Tradition, and so too the Apostles' OT, the Septuagint.

Only one nation in the Church was under the Old Covenant. I see that you Judaizing, and therefore faulting us for bringing all the nations into the Church, as the Lord instructed us.

The Patriarchates of Jerusalem and Antioch (and the Autocephalous Church of Cyprus) predate the Patriarchate of Rome, and the Patriarchate of Alexandria (which has the original Pope) followed soon thereafter "in the beggining." That's the way it was. And is.
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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #61 on: June 02, 2011, 05:12:20 PM »
Inquisitor, have you studied the difference between Orthodox Catholic Papal Primacy and Roman Catholic Papal Supremacy?
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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #62 on: June 02, 2011, 05:14:00 PM »
Christ is ascended!
If the church is One, why many independent patriarchs?
Why did Christ, Who is One, have 12 disciples and send out the 72 Apostles?

Go to Luke 22, 31 -32

{22:31} And the Lord said: “Simon, Simon! Behold, Satan
 has asked for you, so that he may sift you like wheat.
{22:32} But I have prayed for you, so that your faith may
 not fail, and so that you, once converted, may confirm your brothers.”


So you're a protestant?

No, why?

Because you're posting prooftexts.  ;)

And? does that imply that we real christians are forbiden to read the bible, to understand the source of dogma?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #63 on: June 02, 2011, 05:14:31 PM »
If the church is One, why many independent patriarchs?

Why not direct your question to the Holy Apostles, to whom it seemed good to establish local churches, ruled by separate bishops, but in communion with one another in the Eucharist, in prayer, and in faith?

The saint apostles had a primus, that primus had the last word on matters of doctrine as we can see it in the Acts of the apostles.
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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #64 on: June 02, 2011, 05:15:11 PM »
In 431, Which other Patriarchates existed already?
Rome, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria.

Right, and before that?
they were founded in this order by Sts. Peter and Paul, and for Alexandria St. Mark: Jerusalem, Antioch, then Rome and Alexandria.

Alexandria was founded by St Mark around AD 43, St Paul didn't make it to Rome until about AD 57.

So we reach the petrine sees, the reason for these sees to be was not that they were the capital of the empire, but PETER. All patriarchates after these three patriarchates come to exist for political reasons, not for apostolic reasons. the apostolic tradition is that patriarchates were Petrine sees, though alexandria never received Peter himself they received Mark, his envoy.

The only see that could be said to come into existence for "political reasons" would be Constantinople, but even then Asia Minor had long been an important Greek Christian center thanks to St John.  The fifth patriarchate existed not due to political events, but entirely spiritual reason- Jerusalem's only claim to Patriarch status at the time it was brought into the Pentarchy was it's status as the birthplace of Christianity.
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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #65 on: June 02, 2011, 05:16:39 PM »
If the church is One, why many independent patriarchs?

Yes, it is. You have 3 Patriarchs of Antioch  (Melkite, Syriac and Maronite) and two Patriarchs of Alexandria (Melkite and Coptic) and of Jerusalem (Latin and Melkite) so you shoul better have one.

Maybe you'd like to answer.


I think that the existance of many catholic eastern patriarch is due to the fact of their own tradition but as a Latin catholic I don't understand the sectioning of the church, in many patriarchates. mainly because in the beggining it was not that way.

But in the case of EO, they all are greek tradition, and yet they are many
The NT is a Greek Tradition, and so too the Apostles' OT, the Septuagint.

Only one nation in the Church was under the Old Covenant. I see that you Judaizing, and therefore faulting us for bringing all the nations into the Church, as the Lord instructed us.

The Patriarchates of Jerusalem and Antioch (and the Autocephalous Church of Cyprus) predate the Patriarchate of Rome, and the Patriarchate of Alexandria (which has the original Pope) followed soon thereafter "in the beggining." That's the way it was. And is.

Are you saying that Peter never was in Rome?

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #66 on: June 02, 2011, 05:17:01 PM »
Christ is ascended!
If the church is One, why many independent patriarchs?
Why did Christ, Who is One, have 12 disciples and send out the 72 Apostles?

Go to Luke 22, 31 -32

{22:31} And the Lord said: “Simon, Simon! Behold, Satan
 has asked for you, so that he may sift you like wheat.
{22:32} But I have prayed for you, so that your faith may
 not fail, and so that you, once converted, may confirm your brothers.”


So you're a protestant?

No, why?

Because you're posting prooftexts.  ;)

And? does that imply that we real christians are forbiden to read the bible, to understand the source of dogma?
Not by pulling proof quotes out of context.
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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #67 on: June 02, 2011, 05:17:13 PM »
Would you mind to tell us what implies universal bishop?, do you know that Ecumenical meens that?, Do you know that Constantinople started to use such title and Pope rejected it by saying so?

It means but he doesn't act like one in contrary to yours.

Quote
Is that a Petrine see?
No but it was declared autocephalous in 431 what demolishes your theory.

Why the Patriarch of Constantinople doesn't reject tu use the title Ecumenical?
Better yet, why did the Pope of Rome stop using his title Patriarch of the West?

Is the catholic Church confined to the West?

Nice dodge! No points however.
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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #68 on: June 02, 2011, 05:18:38 PM »
Sorry I have to go to work, I will try to answer latter, God Bless You all.

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #69 on: June 02, 2011, 05:46:50 PM »
Christ is ascended!
If the church is One, why many independent patriarchs?
Why did Christ, Who is One, have 12 disciples and send out the 72 Apostles?

Go to Luke 22, 31 -32

{22:31} And the Lord said: “Simon, Simon! Behold, Satan
 has asked for you, so that he may sift you like wheat.
{22:32} But I have prayed for you, so that your faith may
 not fail, and so that you, once converted, may confirm your brothers.”

Go to Matthew 16:23
{16:23} But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan!  You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God but the things of men!"
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #70 on: June 02, 2011, 05:48:14 PM »
Christ is ascended!
Sorry I have to go to work, I will try to answer latter, God Bless You all.
So you weren't working, eh? Proof positive that idle hands are the devil's workshop.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #71 on: June 02, 2011, 05:50:52 PM »
Christ is ascended!
Christ is ascended!
If the church is One, why many independent patriarchs?
Why did Christ, Who is One, have 12 disciples and send out the 72 Apostles?

Go to Luke 22, 31 -32

{22:31} And the Lord said: “Simon, Simon! Behold, Satan
 has asked for you, so that he may sift you like wheat.
{22:32} But I have prayed for you, so that your faith may
 not fail, and so that you, once converted, may confirm your brothers.”


So you're a protestant?

No, why?

Because you're posting prooftexts.  ;)

And? does that imply that we real christians are forbiden to read the bible, to understand the source of dogma?
You have a history of posting texts you do not understand.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #72 on: June 02, 2011, 05:59:49 PM »
Inquisitor, you raise a GREAT question!  I completely agree.  We should have ONE Patriarch.  Oh, but before we get that all settled, let me just make a quick phone call:

*Ring, Ring; Ring, Ring; Ring, Ring*

Me: "Hello, is this Heaven?"
Operator: "Yes, who may I ask is calling?"
Me: "James Patrick Rottnek II.  I live in Bagdad, Arizona.  I was hoping to talk to Jesus for a sec."
Operator: "Oh, ok.  He has a lot of stuff he'd like to get past your thick skull, but I'm sure he'd answer a question for you.  Let me just transfer you."
Jesus: "Hello, are you there?"
Me: "Hi Jesus, I'm glad you weren't too busy to talk.  I have a real problem.  You see, I think there ought to be one Patriarch, why do we need all these bishops all over the place?  But, I'm sure that if I bring up the point, my priest will say "But Jesus had 12 disciples" so I have a favor."
Jesus: "What's that?"
Me: "I want you to either let everyone know you only really meant to have one disciple, and it was a mistake to pick the other eleven, or please unselect the last eleven.  You do have an "undo" button up there right?"

In all seriousness, if we were meant to have just one Bishop, why did Jesus have twelve disciples?  And why did the Disciples replace Judas?

Besides, instead of a substitute for Christ, here on earth, we have Christ leading us from heaven, much as a President doesn't go out to the front lines of a war zone, but rather runs the war from the capital city.  That's where Jesus is - the capital of His Kingdom.
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #73 on: June 02, 2011, 07:38:30 PM »
Is there?

Really keen to see the day when we have an Irish Patriarch.  :)

Offline Wyatt

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #74 on: June 02, 2011, 08:58:54 PM »
No, The current Orthodox understanding was introduced years latter, before there only were petrine sees headed by Rome.
Then why did Pope Gregory Diologos say that to claim to be Universal Bishop was blasphemy?

And the forerunner of Antichrist.

The story of papal supremacy was invented in the 11th century when the papacy was the victim of a hostile takeover by a cabal of barbarians--a takeover which was, sadly, never reversed. Papal supremacy over the Church and over secular governments was the outgrowth of an entirely new policy, unseen and unheard of before. It was a heretical innovation, later passed off by papal apologists as the way things always were. All those who objected to the innovation were deposed, exiled, anathematized, killed, tricked or forced into submission. Even secular historians agree with this.
I love the way you say "even" as if secular historians don't have an agenda and a reason to discredit the Catholic Church.  ::)

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #75 on: June 02, 2011, 10:26:55 PM »
If the church is One, why many independent patriarchs?

Why not direct your question to the Holy Apostles, to whom it seemed good to establish local churches, ruled by separate bishops, but in communion with one another in the Eucharist, in prayer, and in faith?

The saint apostles had a primus, that primus had the last word on matters of doctrine as we can see it in the Acts of the apostles.

Yeah, Saint Peter totally had the last word on the circumcision matter.  ::)
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #76 on: June 02, 2011, 10:26:55 PM »
No it wasn't , Peter was the One who every body follow.

If that were the case then we would not have a Gentillic church today.

The many bishops in many cities was the way that Apostles organized local churches, but in the case of E.O. the patriarch is not a local bishop of a city, but is the head of a nationalistic church.

The jurisdiction of certain bishops extended far beyond simply their city quite quickly, certainly within the early history of the "Catholic Church". First the city bishops gained authority over the country bishops, then the metropolitan bishops gained authority over the city bishops, and then the diocesan bishops gained authority over the metropolitan bishops; the completion of this process was already indicated in a canon of the First Council of Constantinople in 381.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #77 on: June 02, 2011, 10:26:56 PM »
The many bishops in many cities was the way that Apostles organized local churches, but in the case of E.O. the patriarch is not a local bishop of a city, but is the head of a nationalistic church.

So was the Pope of Rome, at least in the early times:



Let's not be silly and anachronistic.

Don't forget Milan!
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #78 on: June 02, 2011, 10:26:56 PM »
If the church is One, why many independent patriarchs?

Yes, that is the Roman Catholic approach and certainly is a logical one from Rome's perspective. The problem is it just does not follow the ecclesiology of the Church, which was and is a confederation of local churches. This situation does not conflict with the equally important principle that the Church, in other words, the Body of Christ, is one. I suppose the bottom line here is how one defines the word "one." As I said earlier, it seems logical for the word to mean one Patriarch/Pope/Archbishop/Metropolitan (all titles of the primate of a local church). However, that would be in human terms, but the Church is not a purely human institution. Don't forget that the Roman Church herself lived under the Orthodox understanding for 800 years?


No, The current Orthodox understanding was introduced years latter, before there only were petrine sees headed by Rome.

This conversation is pointless if all you're going to do is state the bare Romanist teaching.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #79 on: June 02, 2011, 10:26:56 PM »
Would you mind to tell us what implies universal bishop?, do you know that Ecumenical meens that?, Do you know that Constantinople started to use such title and Pope rejected it by saying so?

It means but he doesn't act like one in contrary to yours.

Quote
Is that a Petrine see?
No but it was declared autocephalous in 431 what demolishes your theory.

In 431, Which other Patriarchates existed already?

The Church at that time was not yet even organized into Patriarchates. There were really about a dozen different churches called Exarchates.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #80 on: June 02, 2011, 10:26:56 PM »
In 431, Which other Patriarchates existed already?
Rome, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria.

Jerusalem was still subject to Caesarea Palestina at that point (which itself was subject to Antioch).
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Is there any good reason for many patriarchs?
« Reply #81 on: June 03, 2011, 09:56:29 AM »
If the church is One, why many independent patriarchs?

Yes, that is the Roman Catholic approach and certainly is a logical one from Rome's perspective. The problem is it just does not follow the ecclesiology of the Church, which was and is a confederation of local churches. This situation does not conflict with the equally important principle that the Church, in other words, the Body of Christ, is one. I suppose the bottom line here is how one defines the word "one." As I said earlier, it seems logical for the word to mean one Patriarch/Pope/Archbishop/Metropolitan (all titles of the primate of a local church). However, that would be in human terms, but the Church is not a purely human institution. Don't forget that the Roman Church herself lived under the Orthodox understanding for 800 years?


No, The current Orthodox understanding was introduced years latter, before there only were petrine sees headed by Rome.

This conversation is pointless if all you're going to do is state the bare Romanist teaching.

Well said, and I am glad to see that for the most part we Orthodox are going beyond the barest of Orthodox understanding of this complicated and long-festering issue in this thread. Fortunately, many modern theologians and scholars of the western church are attempting to cut through the gloss of history to better understand the role and true function of the first millenium's 'primus inter pares'.