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Author Topic: Are Atheists really Satanists / Luciferians?  (Read 4100 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: June 01, 2011, 05:33:36 AM »

Here's the question that I always ask Atheists (not to condemn but because I want to know):

If you do not believe in God including any God in the world - who's will in your life do you follow?

The most common answer is: "I follow my own will" or "my own".

Aleister Crowley, a practicing Gnostic/Luciferian/Mason/Satanist said "Do what thy wilt shall be the whole of the law" and that people should live in tune to their "own will".

This roughly translates into "follow your own will".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliester_Crowley

Even Anton Levey, the co-founder of the Church of Satan and author of the Satanic Bible has said "True Atheism is the purest form of Satanism".  He's also known to say "Do what you will". 

The Wicca (a fast growing religion in the USA & World) are witches who recite the witches creed (who claim to practice white magic).  Included in the creed is the saying of Aleister Crowley of "Do what thy will".   http://roswell.fortunecity.com/necronomicon/310/WitchCraft/creed.html

In Isaiah 14, Lucifer cast HIMSELF above God and followed his own will & made himself a God unto himself.

At the fall of Eve in the Garden the Satan promised Eve that "She would be like God" if she ate from the "tree of knowledge", which she did. (Gnostic).

So with that said, if an Atheist is following their own will, are they not a God unto themselves?
Isn't this the exact thing as a Satanist, Gnostic, or Luciferian practice?

Do what thy wilt
vs.
Thy will be done (God's will in the Lord's prayer)

One is Luciferian, one is Christian.

Are Atheists really Satanists?

I know all Satanists claim to be Atheists.

What do you think?
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« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2011, 07:41:46 AM »

You could argue that anyone going against the will of God is a "Satanist" but then the phrase because less useful.

Crowley believed many insane things but he wasn't an atheist.

Anton Lavey's "Satanism" has more to do with Ayn Rand than with Crowley.

Wicca is not fast-growing. All of the "wiccans" I ever met grew out of it and moved on.

Also, it's "do what thou wilt." "Do what thy wilt" is nonsense.
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« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2011, 09:31:27 AM »

I will just say this:

1.) The Church of Satan does not actually teach Satan exists, let alone do they really worship him (at least knowingly);

2.) Just because one atheist says "True Atheism is the purest form of Satanism" does not mean any other atheist agrees
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« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2011, 09:58:46 PM »

In my opinion, it's not worthwhile putting personal energy into understanding Atheists/Satanists such as in the original post.
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« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2011, 11:47:32 PM »

You could argue that anyone going against the will of God is a "Satanist" but then the phrase because less useful.

Crowley believed many insane things but he wasn't an atheist.

Anton Lavey's "Satanism" has more to do with Ayn Rand than with Crowley.

Wicca is not fast-growing. All of the "wiccans" I ever met grew out of it and moved on.

Also, it's "do what thou wilt." "Do what thy wilt" is nonsense.


Thank you.

"Love is the Law, Love under Will."
"Every man is a star."

Crowley ain't as simple as the people he lampooned.

Fascinating guy.

lulz at Lavey and Ayn Rand.
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« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2011, 01:12:21 AM »

My guess is that most atheists are materialists who don't believe in either God or Satan.
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« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2011, 01:45:35 AM »

My guess is that most atheists are materialists who don't believe in either God or Satan.

You might be surprised by the inane and contradictory and inanely-contradictory things the backyard variety atheist believes.
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« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2011, 07:58:27 AM »

Are you saying that some atheists do believe in either/both God or/and Satan?

Speaking of this, I know someone who insists that he is an atheist but claims to believe God exists...I suppose 'dictionary' is a word he's never heard of
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« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2011, 10:17:14 AM »

...I suppose 'dictionary' is a word he's never heard of

he must not believe in them...
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« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2011, 10:42:34 AM »

The devil's greatest trick is convincing us he doesn't exist.  (I don't know who originally said this, but I'm pretty sure it's in The Rite.)
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« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2011, 10:57:57 AM »

Much of this dodges the point though.  (Heh, great quote though about the devil's greatest trick)


If we follow our own will as Atheists will tell you, they are basically their own ruler.  This would make them God's unto their selves or no ruler but themselves.

If you do that you are doing what Lucifer did in Isaiah 14.

The quotes from Crowley & The Church of Satan are exactly as Lucifer did.  Especially Crowley, even though he was not an Atheist.   He was mostly a Freemason in the OTO, who took the divine liturgy and blasphemed it in a Gnostic satanic service.

Gnosticism is the enemy of Christianity (see the book of Jude).  It makes you a God unto yourself, just like Atheists seem to be.
(Do you like the movie the Matrix?  Completely a Gnostic film)
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« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2011, 02:16:32 PM »

Much of this dodges the point though.  (Heh, great quote though about the devil's greatest trick)


If we follow our own will as Atheists will tell you, they are basically their own ruler.  This would make them God's unto their selves or no ruler but themselves.

If you do that you are doing what Lucifer did in Isaiah 14.

The quotes from Crowley & The Church of Satan are exactly as Lucifer did.  Especially Crowley, even though he was not an Atheist.   He was mostly a Freemason in the OTO, who took the divine liturgy and blasphemed it in a Gnostic satanic service.

Gnosticism is the enemy of Christianity (see the book of Jude).  It makes you a God unto yourself, just like Atheists seem to be.
(Do you like the movie the Matrix?  Completely a Gnostic film)

Oh poor Aleister Crowley! Who understands what you did?

High Order Troll of the Golden Dawn. Mr. Misunderstood wrote a couplet on it:

My friends call me Crowley
because they think I'm holy.
My enemies call me Crowley
because they wish to treat me foully.

He mocked brilliantly more newage pagans, theosophists, "Satanists", soon to be cult leaders, than most who've walked the planet.

The Andy Kaufman of the Occult.

lulz.

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« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2011, 02:49:50 PM »

+ Irini nem ehmot,

The devil's greatest trick is convincing us he doesn't exist.  (I don't know who originally said this, but I'm pretty sure it's in The Rite.)

Who is Keyser Soze? He is supposed to be Turkish. Some say his father was German. Nobody believed he was real. Nobody ever saw him or knew anybody that ever worked directly for him, but to hear Kobayashi tell it, anybody could have worked for Soze. You never knew. That was his power. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. And like that, poof. He's gone. - Roger 'Verbal' Kint
The Usual Suspects
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« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2011, 02:55:34 PM »

+ Irini nem ehmot,

The devil's greatest trick is convincing us he doesn't exist.  (I don't know who originally said this, but I'm pretty sure it's in The Rite.)

Who is Keyser Soze? He is supposed to be Turkish. Some say his father was German. Nobody believed he was real. Nobody ever saw him or knew anybody that ever worked directly for him, but to hear Kobayashi tell it, anybody could have worked for Soze. You never knew. That was his power. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. And like that, poof. He's gone. - Roger 'Verbal' Kint
The Usual Suspects

Nice. Just re-watched an episode of BtVS where his name is used as a verb. Just wiki'ed to see if it would be listed in the entry and lo and behold:

Quote
The second use of the name in popular culture is a shorthand reference to being fooled, by an actual villain, into believing in a villain who does not exist. This use of the name is owed to the film's twist ending. One such reference can be found in "The Puppet Show," an episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, where upon discovering the disappearance of a possessed dummy that had convinced the heroes it was on their side, Xander Harris asks, "Does anyone else feel like they've been Keyser Sözed?"[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyser_S%C3%B6ze#In_popular_culture
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« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2011, 03:22:01 PM »

+ Irini nem ehmot,

The devil's greatest trick is convincing us he doesn't exist.  (I don't know who originally said this, but I'm pretty sure it's in The Rite.)

Who is Keyser Soze? He is supposed to be Turkish. Some say his father was German. Nobody believed he was real. Nobody ever saw him or knew anybody that ever worked directly for him, but to hear Kobayashi tell it, anybody could have worked for Soze. You never knew. That was his power. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. And like that, poof. He's gone. - Roger 'Verbal' Kint
The Usual Suspects

The phrase actually comes from at least the mid 19th century.
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« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2011, 03:25:31 PM »

+ Irini nem ehmot,

The devil's greatest trick is convincing us he doesn't exist.  (I don't know who originally said this, but I'm pretty sure it's in The Rite.)

Who is Keyser Soze? He is supposed to be Turkish. Some say his father was German. Nobody believed he was real. Nobody ever saw him or knew anybody that ever worked directly for him, but to hear Kobayashi tell it, anybody could have worked for Soze. You never knew. That was his power. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. And like that, poof. He's gone. - Roger 'Verbal' Kint
The Usual Suspects

The phrase actually comes from at least the mid 19th century.

I was unclear if Cephas was sourcing it or providing a nice use of it in pop-culture.

If you want a lazy attempt at sourcing it, give me 15.4 seconds.
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« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2011, 03:27:38 PM »

Quote
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Charles Baudelaire, "The Generous Gambler" (Feb. 1864)

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Devil

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« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2011, 03:34:05 PM »

Quote
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Charles Baudelaire, "The Generous Gambler" (Feb. 1864)

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Devil



knew it was Baudelaire, wasn't sure which work it was.  I'm also not entirely sure the quote originated with Baudelaire, or if he was using a phrase that existed even longer.
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« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2011, 03:42:55 PM »

Quote
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Charles Baudelaire, "The Generous Gambler" (Feb. 1864)

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Devil



knew it was Baudelaire, wasn't sure which work it was.  I'm also not entirely sure the quote originated with Baudelaire, or if he was using a phrase that existed even longer.

OK show off. You should have put all your cards on the table. You got the time period correct. If you said Baudelaire, we all would praise you and secretly believe you just wikiquoted like I did.

Could be older, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Baudelaire didn't at least put it in that pithy form. French lit is a piano of mine, but from my other interests, it is surprising how many pithy sayings came into language from literature during the mid to late 19th century that seem as though they are nearly timeless.

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« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2011, 04:42:15 PM »

As for the Matrix supposedly being Gnostic, is it really?  The whole point of the movie is about how evil the false reality is and how the heroes of the movie want to live in the physical world.  It is practically the exact opposite of gnosticism which wants to escape the physical.
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« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2011, 05:30:34 PM »

As for the Matrix supposedly being Gnostic, is it really?  The whole point of the movie is about how evil the false reality is and how the heroes of the movie want to live in the physical world.  It is practically the exact opposite of gnosticism which wants to escape the physical.

Did this just become MC.net (megachurch.net)? Wink

With all the misagos of pop-cult examples to understand "Christianity"?

Frankly, I pretty much substitute I don't know what I am talking about when pretty much anyone says the word gnosticism especially when attempting to make something like the Matrix more than the pretty crummy film that it is.

I can see your point, but you have you watch all three installments unfortunately to try to understand the coffe-shop-hodge-podge of ideas the filmakers are trying to put on show.

Love Freud showing up at the end.
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« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2011, 05:36:05 PM »

As for the Matrix supposedly being Gnostic, is it really?  The whole point of the movie is about how evil the false reality is and how the heroes of the movie want to live in the physical world.  It is practically the exact opposite of gnosticism which wants to escape the physical.

Did this just become MC.net (megachurch.net)? Wink

With all the misagos of pop-cult examples to understand "Christianity"?

Frankly, I pretty much substitute I don't know what I am talking about when pretty much anyone says the word gnosticism especially when attempting to make something like the Matrix more than the pretty crummy film that it is.

I can see your point, but you have you watch all three installments unfortunately to try to understand the coffe-shop-hodge-podge of ideas the filmakers are trying to put on show.

Love Freud showing up at the end.

First bubble tea, now the Matrix. You are missing out, man.
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« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2011, 05:40:05 PM »

Are you saying that some atheists do believe in either/both God or/and Satan?

Speaking of this, I know someone who insists that he is an atheist but claims to believe God exists...I suppose 'dictionary' is a word he's never heard of

So many of them believe in souls, spirits, life energy, an impersonal "force", life after death, an impoverished and stupid version of karma -- yet the idea of a God who insists on certain moral standards is repugnant to them. Go figure.

Most are not materialists at all, despite whatever they might say when it comes to the God question.
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« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2011, 05:42:00 PM »

]Frankly, I pretty much substitute I don't know what I am talking about when pretty much anyone says the word gnosticism

Yup. 

Quote
especially when attempting to make something like the Matrix more than the pretty crummy film that it is.

Yup again.

Bubble tea is awesome though.
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« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2011, 05:42:39 PM »

As for the Matrix supposedly being Gnostic, is it really?  The whole point of the movie is about how evil the false reality is and how the heroes of the movie want to live in the physical world.  It is practically the exact opposite of gnosticism which wants to escape the physical.

Did this just become MC.net (megachurch.net)? Wink

With all the misagos of pop-cult examples to understand "Christianity"?

Frankly, I pretty much substitute I don't know what I am talking about when pretty much anyone says the word gnosticism especially when attempting to make something like the Matrix more than the pretty crummy film that it is.

I can see your point, but you have you watch all three installments unfortunately to try to understand the coffe-shop-hodge-podge of ideas the filmakers are trying to put on show.

Love Freud showing up at the end.

First bubble tea, now the Matrix. You are missing out, man.


I was wondering if you were going to chime in on the bubble tea. Vulgar.

Sorry, but this gaijin doesn't think he is the alien when in Japan.
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« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2011, 05:44:37 PM »

I was considering busting out my Baudelaire translations on this thread but I didn't want to appear pretentious. Or am I even more pretentious for mentioning that I did them and not producing them?
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« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2011, 05:48:46 PM »

All I am saying it is not for nothing that bubble tea turns up in a thread about Satanism.

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« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2011, 06:03:46 PM »

I was considering busting out my Baudelaire translations on this thread but I didn't want to appear pretentious. Or am I even more pretentious for mentioning that I did them and not producing them?

Hard to know.
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« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2011, 06:08:00 PM »

As for the Matrix supposedly being Gnostic, is it really?  The whole point of the movie is about how evil the false reality is and how the heroes of the movie want to live in the physical world.  It is practically the exact opposite of gnosticism which wants to escape the physical.

Did this just become MC.net (megachurch.net)? Wink

With all the misagos of pop-cult examples to understand "Christianity"?

Frankly, I pretty much substitute I don't know what I am talking about when pretty much anyone says the word gnosticism especially when attempting to make something like the Matrix more than the pretty crummy film that it is.

I can see your point, but you have you watch all three installments unfortunately to try to understand the coffe-shop-hodge-podge of ideas the filmakers are trying to put on show.

Love Freud showing up at the end.

First bubble tea, now the Matrix. You are missing out, man.


I was wondering if you were going to chime in on the bubble tea. Vulgar.

Sorry, but this gaijin doesn't think he is the alien when in Japan.

バブルティーは永遠の幸せの秘密だ。

I detect a streak of hipster in your contempt for the tastes of the hoi polloi.
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« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2011, 03:45:49 AM »

+ Irini nem ehmot,

+ Irini nem ehmot,

The devil's greatest trick is convincing us he doesn't exist.  (I don't know who originally said this, but I'm pretty sure it's in The Rite.)

Who is Keyser Soze? He is supposed to be Turkish. Some say his father was German. Nobody believed he was real. Nobody ever saw him or knew anybody that ever worked directly for him, but to hear Kobayashi tell it, anybody could have worked for Soze. You never knew. That was his power. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. And like that, poof. He's gone. - Roger 'Verbal' Kint
The Usual Suspects

The phrase actually comes from at least the mid 19th century.

I was unclear if Cephas was sourcing it or providing a nice use of it in pop-culture.

If you want a lazy attempt at sourcing it, give me 15.4 seconds.

I was more just pointing out that the quote was from the film 'The Usual Suspects' and not 'The Rite' (the former being an incredible movie and the latter being pretty decent).
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« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2011, 06:04:15 AM »

Are you saying that some atheists do believe in either/both God or/and Satan?

Speaking of this, I know someone who insists that he is an atheist but claims to believe God exists...I suppose 'dictionary' is a word he's never heard of

So many of them believe in souls, spirits, life energy, an impersonal "force", life after death, an impoverished and stupid version of karma -- yet the idea of a God who insists on certain moral standards is repugnant to them. Go figure.

Most are not materialists at all, despite whatever they might say when it comes to the God question.

I like you Akimori. You have a very Australian way of expressing yourself. I can relate. You are very direct and I dig that.
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« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2011, 07:39:22 AM »

The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, the orgainzation that Aleister Crowley began practicing Ritual Magic in, had Chrisitan antecedents. Many Rosicrucian orders-until the late 1880s I believe-in the U.S., admitted only Freemasons "who were Trinitarian Christians." It was, in fact, a man who was later supposedly an Orthodox Bishop who led the first Rosicrucian Society that admitted non-Masons (the Societa Rosicruciae in America), as he felt the "message" need to go beyond Freemasons. This was George Winslow Plummer, whose primary interest was "esoteric Christianity." Plummer was 'consecrated' by William Albert Nichols, who was 'consecrated by Archbishop Aftimios (Ofiesh). Plummer headed an organization called The Holy Orthodox Church in America.
The Ritual Magic of Crowley, and Samuel Liddell MacGregor Mathers, a co-founder of the Order of the Golden Dawn, went far beyond Freemasonry and Rosicrucianism.
Crowley is said to have gone insane after a ritual in the Sahara Desert, where he supposedly actually summoned a demon, thinking he could control it, and have it do his (Crowley's) will.
While Crowley may have been a Freemason at one point, I would think that Freemasonry would have been very tame stuff to Crowley, and he would have lost interest. I supposes that is easy enough to accept unless you think the Masons are 'taking over the world.' I suppose one could argue that all 'esoteric Christianity' is Gnosticism, but I would think that is not necessarily so.
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« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2011, 07:42:14 AM »

To conclude, Aleister Crowley was not what we know as a "Satanist" today ...
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« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2011, 03:05:57 PM »

The Wicca (a fast growing religion in the USA & World) are witches who recite the witches creed (who claim to practice white magic).  Included in the creed is the saying of Aleister Crowley of "Do what thy will".   http://roswell.fortunecity.com/necronomicon/310/WitchCraft/creed.html

I don't think it's wise to bring the Wiccans into this. Included, yes. But the meaning in the topic you are addressing changes if you quote the whole thing: "If it harm none, do what ye will". Wiccans have some sense of objective morality. And they are certainly not atheists. And they derive this objective morality from their conception of deity.
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« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2011, 03:05:57 PM »

Are you saying that some atheists do believe in either/both God or/and Satan?

Speaking of this, I know someone who insists that he is an atheist but claims to believe God exists...I suppose 'dictionary' is a word he's never heard of

So many of them believe in souls, spirits, life energy, an impersonal "force", life after death, an impoverished and stupid version of karma -- yet the idea of a God who insists on certain moral standards is repugnant to them. Go figure.

Most are not materialists at all, despite whatever they might say when it comes to the God question.

Good point!  Smiley
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« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2011, 06:07:44 AM »

Thanks, David and DVE -- needed a bit of a boost today!
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« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2011, 12:54:58 PM »

As for the Matrix supposedly being Gnostic, is it really?  The whole point of the movie is about how evil the false reality is and how the heroes of the movie want to live in the physical world.  It is practically the exact opposite of gnosticism which wants to escape the physical.

It's a lot darker than most people imagine.
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« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2011, 01:12:52 AM »

It's only a movie ... It's only a movie ... It's only a movie ... It's only a movie ... It's only a movie ... It's only a movie ... It's only a movie ... It's only a movie ... It's only a movie ... It's only a movie ... It's only a movie ... It's only a movie ... It's only a movie ... It's only a movie ...

(your supposed to say that over and over when you get scared of things happening in a movie -oops-it seems to me, in this forum, i had better say in a "film" ... It's only a film ... It's only a film ...)

Maybe what I should really be saying is, It's only orthodoxchristianity.net ... It's only orthodoxchristianity.net ... It's only orthodoxchristianity.net ... It's only orthodoxchristianity.net ... It's only orthodoxchristianity.net ... It's only orthodoxchristianity.net ...
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« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2011, 05:20:08 AM »

This is relevant to my interests.
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« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2011, 08:48:28 AM »

Well, since the thread has been resurrected...

I don't know if atheists are really satanists, but most Anton Levay style Church of Satan satanists are really atheists. The whole "satanism" aspect is for late '60s shock value. I remember years ago researching on the subject and being immensely disappointed upon discovering this- and upon discovering that the religion is mainly about a humanistic approach to morality (along with that oh-so- Age of Aquarius belief that Christianity was the greatest of evils, a criticism born of the Modern Age's belief that its morality was spun from the void as opposed to being the product of 2000 years of Christian morality). The Jack Chick conspiracy theories are just more fun, y'know?
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« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2011, 02:29:23 AM »

Well despite the thread being hijacked some, I'd love input on some of the things I presented.


In Isaiah 14, Lucifer made himself a God and put himself over YHWH.

In the same way Adam and Eve disobeyed God using their own will to obtain "The knowledge of good and evil" that he serpent replied "You will be like God".

Satanists = Make themselves God and are complete Atheists.  Anton Levey said "the purest form of true satanism is Atheism".

Luciferians = Are like the Masons who have "worshipful masters", blood oaths, and Albert Pike wrote that the God of masonry was "lucifer".
Mormons = Believe in becoming exalted men (both Joseph Smith & Brigham young were masons).  Again, self exaltation like Lucifer in Isaiah 14.

Gnostics like crowley believe that YHWH was a horrible god, and you must "break free" from your suppressor and become a God yourself as reflected of "Neo" in the Matrix. (Watch Youtube in above post)  The famous saying by Crowley is "Do what thy wilt shall be the whole of the law".


When we do our own will we are like Adam & Eve and becoming "like God" and putting ourselves over God's will as Lucifer did in Isaiah 14.

I can only summarize this as:

Do what thy wilt  vs. Thy (God's) will be done.


Atheists believe in following their own will, just like Satanists, Gnostics, exalted Mormons, and Higher level Masons.

I can only conclude that the belief of Atheists is the belief of Satanists.

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« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2011, 02:29:23 AM »

You could argue that anyone going against the will of God is a "Satanist" but then the phrase because less useful.

Crowley believed many insane things but he wasn't an atheist.

Anton Lavey's "Satanism" has more to do with Ayn Rand than with Crowley.

Wicca is not fast-growing. All of the "wiccans" I ever met grew out of it and moved on.

Also, it's "do what thou wilt." "Do what thy wilt" is nonsense.


Thank you.

"Love is the Law, Love under Will."
"Every man is a star."

Crowley ain't as simple as the people he lampooned.

Fascinating guy.

lulz at Lavey and Ayn Rand.

Yep real fascinating?Huh   Crowley talks about sacrificing male children and drinking semen of the sacrificed.  He also designed a black "liturgy" mirrored off the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.   Of course it involves snakes, and the "eucharist" he served consisted of bodily fluids.   His two children also mysteriously died and he had his wife engage in "relations" with goats and other animals.

His own mother believed he was the anti-Christ.
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« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2012, 05:31:37 PM »

You could argue that anyone going against the will of God is a "Satanist" but then the phrase because less useful.

Crowley believed many insane things but he wasn't an atheist.

Anton Lavey's "Satanism" has more to do with Ayn Rand than with Crowley.

Wicca is not fast-growing. All of the "wiccans" I ever met grew out of it and moved on.

Also, it's "do what thou wilt." "Do what thy wilt" is nonsense.


Thank you.

"Love is the Law, Love under Will."
"Every man is a star."

Crowley ain't as simple as the people he lampooned.

Fascinating guy.

lulz at Lavey and Ayn Rand.

Yep real fascinating?Huh   Crowley talks about sacrificing male children and drinking semen of the sacrificed.  He also designed a black "liturgy" mirrored off the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.   Of course it involves snakes, and the "eucharist" he served consisted of bodily fluids.   His two children also mysteriously died and he had his wife engage in "relations" with goats and other animals.

His own mother believed he was the anti-Christ.

I call forth the spirits of the dammed and say unto you,  rise! Rise from the abodes of the eternal night, wherein all dead threads rest.

It's really unwise to gather your information from Fundamentalist Christians. Especially on "Occult" matters. They are, more often than not, mistaken. Im not sure why anyone would consult the enemies of an individual(s) or philosophy, if they truely wished to penetrate to the heart of the subject. Would you consult Adolf Hitler if you wanted to learn about Jewish Theology? So why would you rely on paranoid, sensational websites and hostile authors to get a fair account of the Great Beast??
 Lets break this down play by play, and since ive taken it upon my self to lay claim as OC.net's resident Crowley scholar; I'm obviously qualified to address this issue.  Wink

First off, This whole issue of the child sacrafice is perhaps the most common criticism leveled at Mr. Crowley, yet on no other statement in any of his works,  does he give such dire words concerning the inevitable misinterpretation of the passage. If any of these motor-mouths ever cared to actually READ the book, they would have noticed the flashing asterisk* staring them in the face at the end of the sentence, followed by a lengthy footnote on it by both Crowley and the Editors of the later editions.
From Book 4, "LIBER ABA" concerning the "bloody sacrifice":

Quote
"It is the sacrifice of oneself spiritually. And the intelligence and innocence of that male child are the perfect understanding of The magician, his one aim, without lust of result. And male he must be, because what he sacrifices is not the material blood but his creative power."

"Crowley specifies self-sacrifice that does not result in serious injury or death; his remarks also have a sex-magical interpretation. He is advocating neither suicide nor ritual murder.
From time immemorial, certain mystics have associated the orgasmic release with death, for in that moment, the perception of the individual and the normal mode of consciousness is blotted out in psycho, spiritual and physical ecstasy. Since the creative/active principle of the universe has traditionally been considered Masculine, the creative principle in the microcosmic man would be his ability to reproduce. His seed. The Young. Male. Child. And the sacrifice of this child, would be orgasmic release without the intent of conceiving real human children. In other words, "without lust of result."
This of course is just the rude, exoteric, sexual-interpretation.

The real divine comedy begins when you realize that, at the time of the books publication (1913, I believe it was), due to the wildly idiotic "decency laws" a writer could land his or herself in prison for writing about sex. Yet, you could get away with writing about KILLING CHILDREN! HAHAHA. You got to love people, man. So incredibly stupid.

Second on the list, Crowley never wrote a "Black" anything. That whole term is a goofy way of saying "We aren't cool with how you worship God." And perhaps at another time I'll ill go into the whole "black magic" issue, but not here. I don't want to waste any more of your time with my jibbering insanity than I have to.
 However, and correct me if I'm wrong, I believe you're talking about:
Quote
The Gnostic Mass —technically called Liber XV or "Book 15" —Crowley wrote Liber XV in1913 while travelling in Moscow, Russia. In many ways it is similar in structure to the Mass of the Eastern Orthodox Church. However, the comparison ends there, as Liber XV is a celebration of the principles of Thelema.
He wrote it :
Quote
 "under the influence of the Liturgy of St. Basil of the Russian Church."
- http://oto-usa.org/egc.html

Host and wine during religious ceremony is not a practice originating in Christianity. I'm sure you know this. However, it does seem fairly obvious to me, having attended several Gnostic Masses myself, that it IS heavily influenced by EO and RC services,but carrying a far different intention. I know that in several places, though I cant remember where, that Crowley expressed great admiration for the Old Liturgy. If there was one thing Crowley never did,  that was fail to give credit when credit was due. He always cited his sources and openly proclaimed his eclecticism. The intention of the Mass was to reintroduce the full spectrum of life and its cycles, with emphasis on Thelemic cosmology, back into the ceremony, which he felt had been lacking or lost in the Christian tradition.

As for the snakes you mentioned?  I have no clue where you got that from. Sounds like some of the silly crap the Laveyan Satanist's do up in West Hollywood. The Eucharist however, does have some truth to it. Its taken from a couple of passages in the Book of the law,  where one is instructed to do such. It is important to take note of the symbolism behind these ingredients. Also noone was ever, or is ever, served these ingredients during communion. If in private ceremonies, a couple (or maybe a few!) lover's and/or magicians choose to partake of this sacrament so be it. I assure you nothing is consumed that isn't consumed during intercourse between the average married couple. It is literally the Mystic Marriage! Lulz.  Anyway... on to the next one.

There was nothing "Mysterious" about a 3 year old catching Typhoid in South east Asia in 1907. Just very very sad. It drove his wife deeper into her alcoholism, and saddened Crowley to no end. It didn't help that a similar fate would be befall another child of his,  in the future. He may have been all over the place, but from what we can tell by his diary entries on the subject, he loved and cherished his children very much:
Quote
" Part of my plan in coming here is to dig up the bitter memories which have been killing me. I was so happy and hopeful here two years ago; and now my little Poupee(his nickname for the deceased daughter) has been dead over a year and her little brother never came to birth; and my manhood in part is crushed]"
" The day had been one of anguish. Poupee peeped from every alley in the forest."
-Fountains of Hyacinth (1922 diary entry)

There has been no evidence that has surfaced that shows any kind of validation for the beastiality incident actually occurring. Though in numerous places we have Crowley calling himself "an" or "the Old Goat". We also have other people, usually women, affectionately referring to him as such too. Perhaps another misenterpretation of his subversive sexual writing? Who knows.

Finally, concerning his Mother, all we have is Crowleys account. She was part of the Plymouth Bretheren. A fanatical evangelical group, stressing the absolute LITERAL interpretation of the king James Bible. He despised his mother for the way she treated him. And its not merely due to her "Christian" orientation, for his father was a traveling preacher! A man he loved and admired deeply. Perhaps if he had lived, we wouldn't have "The Great Beast" we've all come to know and love. Wink
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« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2012, 05:44:32 PM »

There are only two sides in the battle for the souls of man, God or Satan.  If you are not for one, you are for the other as in, if you are not for God, you are for Satan.
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« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2012, 05:48:36 PM »

I pine for the old days, when anyone not a Trinitarian Christian was called an atheist. Ahh, good times.
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« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2012, 06:08:30 PM »

There are only two sides in the battle for the souls of man, God or Satan.  If you are not for one, you are for the other as in, if you are not for God, you are for Satan.
Uh uh.

And what if I, a "magician" (or manwitch as someone once called me on here), tell you that I DO serve God. The one TRUE God. Like uppercase "G" God?
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« Reply #46 on: July 18, 2012, 06:12:06 PM »

Going by strict definitions, I do not really know how disbelief in God leads to being concerned only about the self. Atheism has no doctrines or teachings other than God does not exist. Many of them--at least in theory--could still have their own ethical theories and even live by an altruistic worldview. Some of them can even be spiritual people who believe in a higher power or in supernatural entities; just not a God or gods per say. I think that oftentimes we are too fast to mistake atheism for strict naturalism, and while the two philosophies usually go together, not all atheists are strict naturalists (even though like 95% of them are!). The former kind--the ones I call 'Spiritual Atheists'--tend to be very confused and want a higher meaning and purpose in the world with some type of spiritual satisfaction, but do not want to find it from a theistic religion because they have problems with it or are too embarassed to adhere to it because of what their peers will think (usually a mix between both!) Many of these tend to be pseudo-Buddhists for a while and some come to Christianity when they get older and undergo a period of deep depression.

The latter kind of atheist--the ones who adhere to strict naturalism and are the largest group of atheists--could very well be perfect Satanists. Usually they undergo periods of development in their worldview. They usually start off thinking that they can justify instrinsically altruistic morality in a naturalistic world; these are mostly the 'new atheists' who start off listening to Christopher Hitchens and are under the delusion that they can have a nearly identical moral system as most people but without God. These people usually mature (or degrade!) into the next stage of naturalistic atheism; that of the objectivist. Now, instead of trying to justify intrinsically altruistic morality, these atheists usually give up on it and only focus solely on the self and try to develop their own ethical system to justify their selfishness. Ironically they seem really sensitive when you call them selfish--probably because they know deep down that what they are doing is not really right and this is probably why they go through all of the trouble to develop a selfish ethical system to justify their lifestyle; to make them feel better and ease the guilt. These are the atheists who usually listen to people like Ayn Rand and tend to be the most 'Satanic' out of all of them in my opinion. Finally, atheists mature into the third and final stage; which is also the most detrimental stage. They finally realize that any morality/ethics is impossible in a naturalistic worldview and just give up on them altogether and in a sense, give up on themselves and life in general as well. They tend to hate everything and everyone; including themselves, and become miserable people. Nietzsche was right when he predicted that everything is permissible without God. These atheists like to reduce humans to that of animals and become slaves of their sorrow.
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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James, you have problemz.
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« Reply #47 on: July 18, 2012, 06:17:30 PM »

Babbles!

Nice to see you back.

Just wanted to say hi and that I am the resident Crowley expert.

Enjoy playing with the peanut gallery.
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« Reply #48 on: July 18, 2012, 06:18:52 PM »

There are only two sides in the battle for the souls of man, God or Satan.  If you are not for one, you are for the other as in, if you are not for God, you are for Satan.

Whatever happened to: if they are not against us, they are for us?

People love the other formulation so much better.
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« Reply #49 on: July 18, 2012, 06:38:37 PM »

Babbles!

Nice to see you back.

Just wanted to say hi and that I am the resident Crowley expert.

Enjoy playing with the peanut gallery.
Oh no you didn't, You old goat! Good to read you.
 Just to clarify though:
I said scholar.
Wink
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« Reply #50 on: July 18, 2012, 11:29:34 PM »

There are only two sides in the battle for the souls of man, God or Satan.  If you are not for one, you are for the other as in, if you are not for God, you are for Satan.
Uh uh.

And what if I, a "magician" (or manwitch as someone once called me on here), tell you that I DO serve God. The one TRUE God. Like uppercase "G" God?
Magician and witch are not the same and "hand faster than the eye" has nothing to do with worshipping God, unless I missed something, so I fail to see your point.  I apologize for not understanding your reference.
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« Reply #51 on: July 18, 2012, 11:31:07 PM »

There are only two sides in the battle for the souls of man, God or Satan.  If you are not for one, you are for the other as in, if you are not for God, you are for Satan.

Whatever happened to: if they are not against us, they are for us?

It isn't accurate.
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« Reply #52 on: July 18, 2012, 11:32:12 PM »

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« Reply #53 on: July 18, 2012, 11:48:01 PM »

There are only two sides in the battle for the souls of man, God or Satan.  If you are not for one, you are for the other as in, if you are not for God, you are for Satan.
Uh uh.

And what if I, a "magician" (or manwitch as someone once called me on here), tell you that I DO serve God. The one TRUE God. Like uppercase "G" God?
Magician and witch are not the same and "hand faster than the eye" has nothing to do with worshipping God, unless I missed something, so I fail to see your point.  I apologize for not understanding your reference.
Did you think I was talking about pulling rabbit's out of hat's?
As "spiritual" practices, I don't see them as the same thing. Yet culturally, as well as in English translations of your scripture, they often use the terms Magic and Witchcraft interchangeably. Whatever it might be, i'm not arguing etymology. I'm simply saying that the dualistic approach to "God" and his "Adversary" is unable to account for people like me and my relationship with "God". I'm not trying to insult you or your faith, i'm just throwing my hat in the ring.
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« Reply #54 on: July 19, 2012, 12:23:15 AM »

(or manwitch as someone once called me on here)

It was in love.  angel  Don't spell me, bro!

Quote
And what if I, a "magician"  tell you that I DO serve God. The one TRUE God. Like uppercase "G" God?

I know the question wasn't directed at me, but other than a few reckless people, most of the folk I've known on similar paths to yours believe this. 

I don't mean that derisively, by the way.
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« Reply #55 on: July 19, 2012, 12:50:51 AM »

(or manwitch as someone once called me on here)

It was in love.  angel  Don't spell me, bro!
Haha!

Quote
And what if I, a "magician"  tell you that I DO serve God. The one TRUE God. Like uppercase "G" God?

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I know the question wasn't directed at me, but other than a few reckless people, most of the folk I've known on similar paths to yours believe this. 

I don't mean that derisively, by the way.

Sure, sure. Everyone want's to convince each other that they're on the golden road..This is why i think conversion and evangelism is so powerful. If you can convince another person that what you "know" is in fact, THE truth, how much better off are you?  My "knowledge", if i can be so arrogant as to pretend that i possess any, of "God" is derived exclusively from personal experience. I am not driven by faith, i am driven by tried and tested methods. I've heard every counter-argument in the book yet i can't be swayed from my conclusion. Not that i'm "set in my ways", but that the experience and communion i've partaken in- has left its overwhelming presence in my life as a testament to it's validity. No dogma, just the experience. I don't fancy myself one of these Sylvia Browne water-heads, nor am I an ascetic (maybe sometimes). I try things from diverse systems, not because i'm "searching" (like a drunk for the light-switch) but because i know they can work, and i want to know why they work. Questions of salvation are not a real factor in my life and i find the idea "casting out devils with devils" to be absurd. (I only mention that because I've actually been accused of something like it, go figure!).
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« Reply #56 on: July 19, 2012, 01:32:29 AM »

I didn't mean to imply that they (or you) think they're on the golden road (well, some of them do).  Just that they're into some of the stuff you are, but that they also believe that they are serving the one True God. 

Of course you've got the smattering of Satanistas out there, but I was just stating that not everyone who gets into magic, the occult, or whatever, is doing it out of a loathing of or disbelief in God.

I get your point though and understand the bit about experience. 

How do you know, or rather, what leads you to believe it's God your dealing with?  I'm curious, not arguing a point.
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« Reply #57 on: July 19, 2012, 10:21:48 AM »

There are only two sides in the battle for the souls of man, God or Satan.  If you are not for one, you are for the other as in, if you are not for God, you are for Satan.

Whatever happened to: if they are not against us, they are for us?

It isn't accurate.

Are you ever correct?

Mark 9:40

http://bible.cc/mark/9-40.htm
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« Reply #58 on: July 19, 2012, 11:21:50 AM »

I was considering busting out my Baudelaire translations on this thread but I didn't want to appear pretentious. Or am I even more pretentious for mentioning that I did them and not producing them?
Yes; doubly so.  Grin
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« Reply #59 on: July 19, 2012, 04:59:08 PM »

There are only two sides in the battle for the souls of man, God or Satan.  If you are not for one, you are for the other as in, if you are not for God, you are for Satan.

Whatever happened to: if they are not against us, they are for us?

It isn't accurate.

Are you ever correct?

Mark 9:40

http://bible.cc/mark/9-40.htm

Yes, often.  Cherry picking scripture isn't intelligence, wisdom or wit.  It's what Protestants do.  Context is usually the important ingredient people forget to include.

See what I mean?

Rom 14:23 "for whatever is not from faith is sin"

But, since you produced scripture first, I supply this:

Matthew 12:30 "He that is not with me is against me" (22-30)
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« Reply #60 on: July 19, 2012, 05:00:11 PM »

There are only two sides in the battle for the souls of man, God or Satan.  If you are not for one, you are for the other as in, if you are not for God, you are for Satan.
Uh uh.

And what if I, a "magician" (or manwitch as someone once called me on here), tell you that I DO serve God. The one TRUE God. Like uppercase "G" God?
Magician and witch are not the same and "hand faster than the eye" has nothing to do with worshipping God, unless I missed something, so I fail to see your point.  I apologize for not understanding your reference.
Did you think I was talking about pulling rabbit's out of hat's?

I have no idea what you are talking about. 
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« Reply #61 on: July 19, 2012, 05:40:54 PM »

Whatever happened to: if they are not against us, they are for us?
Mark 9:40

Matthew 12:30 "He that is not with me is against me" (22-30)

SCRIPTURE FIGHT!!!!!

I'm confused.
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« Reply #62 on: July 19, 2012, 06:07:19 PM »

I was considering busting out my Baudelaire translations on this thread but I didn't want to appear pretentious. Or am I even more pretentious for mentioning that I did them and not producing them?
Yes; doubly so.  Grin

 laugh laugh
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« Reply #63 on: July 19, 2012, 07:08:12 PM »

Whatever happened to: if they are not against us, they are for us?
Mark 9:40

Matthew 12:30 "He that is not with me is against me" (22-30)

SCRIPTURE FIGHT!!!!!

I'm confused.

Don't worry, Kerdy is more so and without being aware of it.
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« Reply #64 on: July 19, 2012, 07:50:27 PM »

Whatever happened to: if they are not against us, they are for us?
Mark 9:40

Matthew 12:30 "He that is not with me is against me" (22-30)

SCRIPTURE FIGHT!!!!!

I'm confused.

Don't worry, Kerdy is more so and without being aware of it.

Actually, I was attempting to show how silly it is to take a quip of scripture out of context and attempt to use it to establish a definitive doctrine unrelated to that scripture or the topic being discussed.
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« Reply #65 on: July 19, 2012, 07:52:54 PM »

Whatever happened to: if they are not against us, they are for us?
Mark 9:40

Matthew 12:30 "He that is not with me is against me" (22-30)

SCRIPTURE FIGHT!!!!!

I'm confused.

Don't worry, Kerdy is more so and without being aware of it.

Actually, I was attempting to show how silly it is to take a quip of scripture out of context and attempt to use it to establish a definitive doctrine unrelated to that scripture or the topic being discussed.

Well you showed a lot more than that.

Bait. Set.

You. Take.

Frankly, among your circle of friends where who knows what passes for thinking and evidence you might might find yourself making sense.

This is interwebz. Varsity level depending on the participants. I tripled lettered.

You have yet to make JV.
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« Reply #66 on: July 19, 2012, 08:01:32 PM »

Whatever happened to: if they are not against us, they are for us?
Mark 9:40

Matthew 12:30 "He that is not with me is against me" (22-30)

SCRIPTURE FIGHT!!!!!

I'm confused.

Don't worry, Kerdy is more so and without being aware of it.

Actually, I was attempting to show how silly it is to take a quip of scripture out of context and attempt to use it to establish a definitive doctrine unrelated to that scripture or the topic being discussed.

Well you showed a lot more than that.

Not really.
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« Reply #67 on: July 19, 2012, 08:02:50 PM »

Whatever happened to: if they are not against us, they are for us?
Mark 9:40

Matthew 12:30 "He that is not with me is against me" (22-30)

SCRIPTURE FIGHT!!!!!

I'm confused.

Don't worry, Kerdy is more so and without being aware of it.

Actually, I was attempting to show how silly it is to take a quip of scripture out of context and attempt to use it to establish a definitive doctrine unrelated to that scripture or the topic being discussed.

Well you showed a lot more than that.

Not really.

We have a long way to go. I don't have much hope, but I won't quit you yet.
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« Reply #68 on: July 19, 2012, 08:18:29 PM »

Modern day man witch:

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« Reply #69 on: July 19, 2012, 10:05:50 PM »

If we are speaking of magic in the biblical sense, it is wrong and sinful.  If we are talking about David Copperfield, it isn't.  I have no idea how this became a focus of the discussion. 

If one rejects God, they, by default, are playing for the other team.  This is clearly explained.  There are only two teams to choose from.  If one says they are for God, yet engage in things they should not, that person is either willingly sinning or is a liar.  Only that person and God knows which.  I honestly find it difficult to understand how there is any confusion about these things.

So, if an atheist rejects God, whether he is she knows it or not, they fight on the side of Satan. By loose definition, I would say to the OP, yes.  We can "what if" it all day, but to do so seems to question God, the Apostles, the ECF's, Tradition and Scripture.  I, for one, am not prepared to question all of that.
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« Reply #70 on: August 13, 2012, 05:32:37 AM »

If we are speaking of magic in the biblical sense, it is wrong and sinful.  If we are talking about David Copperfield, it isn't.

And i'm saying that the term magic in the scriptural sense is somewhat of a loosely defined term. Stage magicians are lying entertainers. Last time i checked, lying is wrong and sinful.  police

Quote
If one rejects God, they, by default, are playing for the other team.  This is clearly explained.  There are only two teams to choose from.  If one says they are for God, yet engage in things they should not, that person is either willingly sinning or is a liar.  Only that person and God knows which.  I honestly find it difficult to understand how there is any confusion about these things.
There is no confusion, and i'm not exactly trying to bend your scripture to fit my actions. I do things that are contrary to your scripture with full knowledge of the supposed consequences. Consequences, that i don't find to be true. I'm not arguing who's God's phallus is mightier, i'm simply stating that the whole "I worship God" thing is a loaded statement, which offers nothing in the way of determining who's on the "right path.". It's not as simple to me, as it supposedly is to you.

Quote
So, if an atheist rejects God, whether he is she knows it or not, they fight on the side of Satan.
Fair enough.
Quote
We can "what if" it all day, but to do so seems to question God, the Apostles, the ECF's, Tradition and Scripture.  I, for one, am not prepared to question all of that.
It's okay, i'll do it for you.
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« Reply #71 on: August 13, 2012, 12:34:49 PM »

If we are speaking of magic in the biblical sense, it is wrong and sinful.  If we are talking about David Copperfield, it isn't.

And i'm saying that the term magic in the scriptural sense is somewhat of a loosely defined term. Stage magicians are lying entertainers. Last time i checked, lying is wrong and sinful.  police

Quote
If one rejects God, they, by default, are playing for the other team.  This is clearly explained.  There are only two teams to choose from.  If one says they are for God, yet engage in things they should not, that person is either willingly sinning or is a liar.  Only that person and God knows which.  I honestly find it difficult to understand how there is any confusion about these things.
There is no confusion, and i'm not exactly trying to bend your scripture to fit my actions. I do things that are contrary to your scripture with full knowledge of the supposed consequences. Consequences, that i don't find to be true. I'm not arguing who's God's phallus is mightier, i'm simply stating that the whole "I worship God" thing is a loaded statement, which offers nothing in the way of determining who's on the "right path.". It's not as simple to me, as it supposedly is to you.

Quote
So, if an atheist rejects God, whether he is she knows it or not, they fight on the side of Satan.
Fair enough.
Quote
We can "what if" it all day, but to do so seems to question God, the Apostles, the ECF's, Tradition and Scripture.  I, for one, am not prepared to question all of that.
It's okay, i'll do it for you.


If you are an atheist, you most likely follow your own will.

If you follow your own will, then by definition to those who are religious, you are doing as Lucifer did in Isaiah 14.  This is making yourself a God/ruler to yourself.

That is Satanism.
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« Reply #72 on: August 13, 2012, 01:31:26 PM »

If we are speaking of magic in the biblical sense, it is wrong and sinful.  If we are talking about David Copperfield, it isn't.

And i'm saying that the term magic in the scriptural sense is somewhat of a loosely defined term. Stage magicians are lying entertainers. Last time i checked, lying is wrong and sinful.  police

Quote
If one rejects God, they, by default, are playing for the other team.  This is clearly explained.  There are only two teams to choose from.  If one says they are for God, yet engage in things they should not, that person is either willingly sinning or is a liar.  Only that person and God knows which.  I honestly find it difficult to understand how there is any confusion about these things.
There is no confusion, and i'm not exactly trying to bend your scripture to fit my actions. I do things that are contrary to your scripture with full knowledge of the supposed consequences. Consequences, that i don't find to be true. I'm not arguing who's God's phallus is mightier, i'm simply stating that the whole "I worship God" thing is a loaded statement, which offers nothing in the way of determining who's on the "right path.". It's not as simple to me, as it supposedly is to you.

Quote
So, if an atheist rejects God, whether he is she knows it or not, they fight on the side of Satan.
Fair enough.
Quote
We can "what if" it all day, but to do so seems to question God, the Apostles, the ECF's, Tradition and Scripture.  I, for one, am not prepared to question all of that.
It's okay, i'll do it for you.


If you are an atheist, you most likely follow your own will.

If you follow your own will, then by definition to those who are religious, you are doing as Lucifer did in Isaiah 14.  This is making yourself a God/ruler to yourself.

That is Satanism.

I suppose you always follow the Father's will?

"Satanism: 1.) Innate wickedness; 2.) obsession with or affinity for evil; specifically : worship of Satan marked by the travesty of Christian rites" - Merriam-Webster
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« Reply #73 on: August 13, 2012, 06:30:35 PM »

If we are speaking of magic in the biblical sense, it is wrong and sinful.  If we are talking about David Copperfield, it isn't.

And i'm saying that the term magic in the scriptural sense is somewhat of a loosely defined term. Stage magicians are lying entertainers. Last time i checked, lying is wrong and sinful.  police

Quote
If one rejects God, they, by default, are playing for the other team.  This is clearly explained.  There are only two teams to choose from.  If one says they are for God, yet engage in things they should not, that person is either willingly sinning or is a liar.  Only that person and God knows which.  I honestly find it difficult to understand how there is any confusion about these things.
There is no confusion, and i'm not exactly trying to bend your scripture to fit my actions. I do things that are contrary to your scripture with full knowledge of the supposed consequences. Consequences, that i don't find to be true. I'm not arguing who's God's phallus is mightier, i'm simply stating that the whole "I worship God" thing is a loaded statement, which offers nothing in the way of determining who's on the "right path.". It's not as simple to me, as it supposedly is to you.

Quote
So, if an atheist rejects God, whether he is she knows it or not, they fight on the side of Satan.
Fair enough.
Quote
We can "what if" it all day, but to do so seems to question God, the Apostles, the ECF's, Tradition and Scripture.  I, for one, am not prepared to question all of that.
It's okay, i'll do it for you.


If you are an atheist, you most likely follow your own will.

If you follow your own will, then by definition to those who are religious, you are doing as Lucifer did in Isaiah 14.  This is making yourself a God/ruler to yourself.

That is Satanism.

You obviously didn't read anything i've said to you. This entire thread has somehow stemmed out of your nonsensical statements about the "occult". I simply wanted to correct you on your misunderstandings about one Edward Alexander Crowley.

I'm not an Atheist and am, in fact, quite religious. My definition of "my will" is considerably different than what you're supposing it is.  Satanism, in the past couple of centuries, has become a wild generalization that folks like to throw out in order to cover a large surface area of subjects considered "heretical". Also, Don't forget that a heretic simply means "one who chooses". 

Also, as James has stated:
"Satanism: 1.) Innate wickedness; 2.) obsession with or affinity for evil; specifically : worship of Satan marked by the travesty of Christian rites" - Merriam-Webster
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« Reply #74 on: August 13, 2012, 06:49:31 PM »

Satanism, in the past couple of centuries, has become a wild generalization that folks like to throw out in order to cover a large surface area of subjects considered "heretical".

2012-1948=64

Also, Don't forget that a heretic simply means "one who chooses".

My Latin dictionary states that "haereo, haerere, haeresi, haesum" is to "to cling, stick, be attached to something".
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« Reply #75 on: August 13, 2012, 06:59:24 PM »

Satanism, in the past couple of centuries, has become a wild generalization that folks like to throw out in order to cover a large surface area of subjects considered "heretical".

2012-1948=64


I don't get it.

Quote
My Latin dictionary states that "haereo, haerere, haeresi, haesum" is to "to cling, stick, be attached to something".

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=heretic

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« Reply #76 on: August 13, 2012, 07:07:52 PM »

I don't get it.

The year of the foundation of satanism. No centuries, just decades.



"Heresy" is a loanword from Greek to Latin, and has couple of dozens of meanings. One of which is "to cling to something". This "to cling to something" was adapted to Latin writings. Since then, it was never used in other meanings than this one. It's good to check the context. Without it I could easily say that "atheist" means "ungodly", or "abandoned by gods", cause that's the original Greek meaning.
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« Reply #77 on: August 13, 2012, 07:43:56 PM »

I don't get it.

The year of the foundation of satanism. No centuries, just decades.

You've missed the conversation my friend, try again.

We aren't talking just about Laveyan Satanism. Mystic's and Magicians outside the boundaries of Christendom have been accused of Devil-Worship and "Satanism" since at least the 1800's.


Quote

"Heresy" is a loanword from Greek to Latin, and has couple of dozens of meanings. One of which is "to cling to something". This "to cling to something" was adapted to Latin writings. Since then, it was never used in other meanings than this one. It's good to check the context. Without it I could easily say that "atheist" means "ungodly", or "abandoned by gods", cause that's the original Greek meaning.

Okay.
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« Reply #78 on: August 13, 2012, 08:00:25 PM »

You've missed the conversation my friend, try again.

We aren't talking just about Laveyan Satanism. Mystic's and Magicians outside the boundaries of Christendom have been accused of Devil-Worship and "Satanism" since at least the 1800's.

Ok, now I understand. So, we are not talking only about laveyan satanism, but theistic satanism, gnosticism, palladism and so forth. I'm sure though, that both of us will agree we should stick to the official definitions, in other case we'll get all tangled up. So we can't speak in loose term "satanism", because it's like merging Jehova's Witnesses with Roman Catholics and saying they're "Christians". The former believe in God, the latter believe in defiance, but that's where similarities often end.
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« Reply #79 on: August 13, 2012, 08:17:10 PM »

You've missed the conversation my friend, try again.

We aren't talking just about Laveyan Satanism. Mystic's and Magicians outside the boundaries of Christendom have been accused of Devil-Worship and "Satanism" since at least the 1800's.

Ok, now I understand. So, we are not talking only about laveyan satanism, but theistic satanism, gnosticism, palladism and so forth. I'm sure though, that both of us will agree we should stick to the official definitions, in other case we'll get all tangled up. So we can't speak in loose term "satanism", because it's like merging Jehova's Witnesses with Roman Catholics and saying they're "Christians". The former believe in God, the latter believe in defiance, but that's where similarities often end.

Yes... But that has been my whole point prior to this post. If you read the OP, and those that follow, they were all too comfortable with labeling any and all "spiritual" path's other than the Christian one, as Satanic. I was simply calling it what it was. Nonsense. A tradition of nonsense, that is no younger than a "couple of centuries." 
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« Reply #80 on: August 13, 2012, 10:37:59 PM »

You've missed the conversation my friend, try again.

We aren't talking just about Laveyan Satanism. Mystic's and Magicians outside the boundaries of Christendom have been accused of Devil-Worship and "Satanism" since at least the 1800's.

Ok, now I understand. So, we are not talking only about laveyan satanism, but theistic satanism, gnosticism, palladism and so forth. I'm sure though, that both of us will agree we should stick to the official definitions, in other case we'll get all tangled up. So we can't speak in loose term "satanism", because it's like merging Jehova's Witnesses with Roman Catholics and saying they're "Christians". The former believe in God, the latter believe in defiance, but that's where similarities often end.

Yes... But that has been my whole point prior to this post. If you read the OP, and those that follow, they were all too comfortable with labeling any and all "spiritual" path's other than the Christian one, as Satanic. I was simply calling it what it was. Nonsense. A tradition of nonsense, that is no younger than a "couple of centuries." 
Unless, of course, you see other paths for what they are.  Created by Satan to keep people from God, distractions, etc., making them Satanic in origin.  As I stated previously, a battle waged by only two forces.  One trying to get people on the right path (Christianity), the other sending them anywhere else (everything else) other than Christianity. 
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« Reply #81 on: August 13, 2012, 11:27:38 PM »

You've missed the conversation my friend, try again.

We aren't talking just about Laveyan Satanism. Mystic's and Magicians outside the boundaries of Christendom have been accused of Devil-Worship and "Satanism" since at least the 1800's.

Ok, now I understand. So, we are not talking only about laveyan satanism, but theistic satanism, gnosticism, palladism and so forth. I'm sure though, that both of us will agree we should stick to the official definitions, in other case we'll get all tangled up. So we can't speak in loose term "satanism", because it's like merging Jehova's Witnesses with Roman Catholics and saying they're "Christians". The former believe in God, the latter believe in defiance, but that's where similarities often end.

Yes... But that has been my whole point prior to this post. If you read the OP, and those that follow, they were all too comfortable with labeling any and all "spiritual" path's other than the Christian one, as Satanic. I was simply calling it what it was. Nonsense. A tradition of nonsense, that is no younger than a "couple of centuries."  
Unless, of course, you see other paths for what they are.  Created by Satan to keep people from God, distractions, etc., making them Satanic in origin.  As I stated previously, a battle waged by only two forces.  One trying to get people on the right path (Christianity), the other sending them anywhere else (everything else) other than Christianity.  
That's great, beliefs are neat. Man's Ego has an amazing capacity for self-assurance and preservation. Just don't lose sight of the fact that it's just that, a belief. One which hold's no grounding in "reality" as far as anyone can tell.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 11:31:23 PM by Babalon » Logged

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« Reply #82 on: August 14, 2012, 02:17:30 AM »

I don't get it.

The year of the foundation of satanism. No centuries, just decades.



"Heresy" is a loanword from Greek to Latin, and has couple of dozens of meanings. One of which is "to cling to something". This "to cling to something" was adapted to Latin writings. Since then, it was never used in other meanings than this one. It's good to check the context. Without it I could easily say that "atheist" means "ungodly", or "abandoned by gods", cause that's the original Greek meaning.

That depends on what you mean by 'satanism.'  The term dates back, IIRC, to the sixteenth century.
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« Reply #83 on: August 14, 2012, 10:19:52 AM »

You've missed the conversation my friend, try again.

We aren't talking just about Laveyan Satanism. Mystic's and Magicians outside the boundaries of Christendom have been accused of Devil-Worship and "Satanism" since at least the 1800's.

Ok, now I understand. So, we are not talking only about laveyan satanism, but theistic satanism, gnosticism, palladism and so forth. I'm sure though, that both of us will agree we should stick to the official definitions, in other case we'll get all tangled up. So we can't speak in loose term "satanism", because it's like merging Jehova's Witnesses with Roman Catholics and saying they're "Christians". The former believe in God, the latter believe in defiance, but that's where similarities often end.

Yes... But that has been my whole point prior to this post. If you read the OP, and those that follow, they were all too comfortable with labeling any and all "spiritual" path's other than the Christian one, as Satanic. I was simply calling it what it was. Nonsense. A tradition of nonsense, that is no younger than a "couple of centuries."  
Unless, of course, you see other paths for what they are.  Created by Satan to keep people from God, distractions, etc., making them Satanic in origin.  As I stated previously, a battle waged by only two forces.  One trying to get people on the right path (Christianity), the other sending them anywhere else (everything else) other than Christianity.  
That's great, beliefs are neat. Man's Ego has an amazing capacity for self-assurance and preservation. Just don't lose sight of the fact that it's just that, a belief. One which hold's no grounding in "reality" as far as anyone can tell.
Your belief and ego or everyone else's? 
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« Reply #84 on: August 14, 2012, 11:57:42 AM »

Orthonorm--I think this latest exchange between Kerdy and Babalon was worthy of your condescension.
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« Reply #85 on: August 14, 2012, 01:56:37 PM »

I think this latest exchange between Kerdy and Babalon...
We had hardly any exchange.  What are you talking about?
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« Reply #86 on: August 14, 2012, 04:22:50 PM »

You've missed the conversation my friend, try again.

We aren't talking just about Laveyan Satanism. Mystic's and Magicians outside the boundaries of Christendom have been accused of Devil-Worship and "Satanism" since at least the 1800's.

Ok, now I understand. So, we are not talking only about laveyan satanism, but theistic satanism, gnosticism, palladism and so forth. I'm sure though, that both of us will agree we should stick to the official definitions, in other case we'll get all tangled up. So we can't speak in loose term "satanism", because it's like merging Jehova's Witnesses with Roman Catholics and saying they're "Christians". The former believe in God, the latter believe in defiance, but that's where similarities often end.

Yes... But that has been my whole point prior to this post. If you read the OP, and those that follow, they were all too comfortable with labeling any and all "spiritual" path's other than the Christian one, as Satanic. I was simply calling it what it was. Nonsense. A tradition of nonsense, that is no younger than a "couple of centuries."  
Unless, of course, you see other paths for what they are.  Created by Satan to keep people from God, distractions, etc., making them Satanic in origin.  As I stated previously, a battle waged by only two forces.  One trying to get people on the right path (Christianity), the other sending them anywhere else (everything else) other than Christianity.  
That's great, beliefs are neat. Man's Ego has an amazing capacity for self-assurance and preservation. Just don't lose sight of the fact that it's just that, a belief. One which hold's no grounding in "reality" as far as anyone can tell.
Your belief and ego or everyone else's? 

....What?

Is English not your first language? It's okay if it isn't, that would explain a lot.

I meant all beliefs and "Ego's".
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« Reply #87 on: August 14, 2012, 04:35:20 PM »

You've missed the conversation my friend, try again.

We aren't talking just about Laveyan Satanism. Mystic's and Magicians outside the boundaries of Christendom have been accused of Devil-Worship and "Satanism" since at least the 1800's.

Ok, now I understand. So, we are not talking only about laveyan satanism, but theistic satanism, gnosticism, palladism and so forth. I'm sure though, that both of us will agree we should stick to the official definitions, in other case we'll get all tangled up. So we can't speak in loose term "satanism", because it's like merging Jehova's Witnesses with Roman Catholics and saying they're "Christians". The former believe in God, the latter believe in defiance, but that's where similarities often end.

Yes... But that has been my whole point prior to this post. If you read the OP, and those that follow, they were all too comfortable with labeling any and all "spiritual" path's other than the Christian one, as Satanic. I was simply calling it what it was. Nonsense. A tradition of nonsense, that is no younger than a "couple of centuries."  
Unless, of course, you see other paths for what they are.  Created by Satan to keep people from God, distractions, etc., making them Satanic in origin.  As I stated previously, a battle waged by only two forces.  One trying to get people on the right path (Christianity), the other sending them anywhere else (everything else) other than Christianity.  
That's great, beliefs are neat. Man's Ego has an amazing capacity for self-assurance and preservation. Just don't lose sight of the fact that it's just that, a belief. One which hold's no grounding in "reality" as far as anyone can tell.
Your belief and ego or everyone else's? 

....What?

Is English not your first language? It's okay if it isn't, that would explain a lot.

I meant all beliefs and "Ego's".
*shakes head at silly antics*

It's much more enjoyable to engage people in conversation when they don't spiral down to this sort of dialog, but alas, we all have our moments.  Perhaps this is yours.  Mine was a couple of days ago.

As long as you have included yourself in your statement, I'm fine with it.
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« Reply #88 on: August 14, 2012, 04:56:45 PM »

You've missed the conversation my friend, try again.

We aren't talking just about Laveyan Satanism. Mystic's and Magicians outside the boundaries of Christendom have been accused of Devil-Worship and "Satanism" since at least the 1800's.

Ok, now I understand. So, we are not talking only about laveyan satanism, but theistic satanism, gnosticism, palladism and so forth. I'm sure though, that both of us will agree we should stick to the official definitions, in other case we'll get all tangled up. So we can't speak in loose term "satanism", because it's like merging Jehova's Witnesses with Roman Catholics and saying they're "Christians". The former believe in God, the latter believe in defiance, but that's where similarities often end.

Yes... But that has been my whole point prior to this post. If you read the OP, and those that follow, they were all too comfortable with labeling any and all "spiritual" path's other than the Christian one, as Satanic. I was simply calling it what it was. Nonsense. A tradition of nonsense, that is no younger than a "couple of centuries."  
Unless, of course, you see other paths for what they are.  Created by Satan to keep people from God, distractions, etc., making them Satanic in origin.  As I stated previously, a battle waged by only two forces.  One trying to get people on the right path (Christianity), the other sending them anywhere else (everything else) other than Christianity.  
That's great, beliefs are neat. Man's Ego has an amazing capacity for self-assurance and preservation. Just don't lose sight of the fact that it's just that, a belief. One which hold's no grounding in "reality" as far as anyone can tell.
Your belief and ego or everyone else's? 

....What?

Is English not your first language? It's okay if it isn't, that would explain a lot.

I meant all beliefs and "Ego's".
*shakes head at silly antics*

It's much more enjoyable to engage people in conversation when they don't spiral down to this sort of dialog, but alas, we all have our moments.  Perhaps this is yours.  Mine was a couple of days ago.

As long as you have included yourself in your statement, I'm fine with it.

It's also enjoyable to engage people in conversation when they don't ask unnecessary questions.
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« Reply #89 on: August 14, 2012, 05:04:16 PM »

You've missed the conversation my friend, try again.

We aren't talking just about Laveyan Satanism. Mystic's and Magicians outside the boundaries of Christendom have been accused of Devil-Worship and "Satanism" since at least the 1800's.

Ok, now I understand. So, we are not talking only about laveyan satanism, but theistic satanism, gnosticism, palladism and so forth. I'm sure though, that both of us will agree we should stick to the official definitions, in other case we'll get all tangled up. So we can't speak in loose term "satanism", because it's like merging Jehova's Witnesses with Roman Catholics and saying they're "Christians". The former believe in God, the latter believe in defiance, but that's where similarities often end.

Yes... But that has been my whole point prior to this post. If you read the OP, and those that follow, they were all too comfortable with labeling any and all "spiritual" path's other than the Christian one, as Satanic. I was simply calling it what it was. Nonsense. A tradition of nonsense, that is no younger than a "couple of centuries."  
Unless, of course, you see other paths for what they are.  Created by Satan to keep people from God, distractions, etc., making them Satanic in origin.  As I stated previously, a battle waged by only two forces.  One trying to get people on the right path (Christianity), the other sending them anywhere else (everything else) other than Christianity.  
That's great, beliefs are neat. Man's Ego has an amazing capacity for self-assurance and preservation. Just don't lose sight of the fact that it's just that, a belief. One which hold's no grounding in "reality" as far as anyone can tell.
Your belief and ego or everyone else's? 

....What?

Is English not your first language? It's okay if it isn't, that would explain a lot.

I meant all beliefs and "Ego's".
*shakes head at silly antics*

It's much more enjoyable to engage people in conversation when they don't spiral down to this sort of dialog, but alas, we all have our moments.  Perhaps this is yours.  Mine was a couple of days ago.

As long as you have included yourself in your statement, I'm fine with it.

It's also enjoyable to engage people in conversation when they don't ask unnecessary questions.
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« Reply #90 on: August 15, 2012, 07:28:33 PM »

You've missed the conversation my friend, try again.

We aren't talking just about Laveyan Satanism. Mystic's and Magicians outside the boundaries of Christendom have been accused of Devil-Worship and "Satanism" since at least the 1800's.

Ok, now I understand. So, we are not talking only about laveyan satanism, but theistic satanism, gnosticism, palladism and so forth. I'm sure though, that both of us will agree we should stick to the official definitions, in other case we'll get all tangled up. So we can't speak in loose term "satanism", because it's like merging Jehova's Witnesses with Roman Catholics and saying they're "Christians". The former believe in God, the latter believe in defiance, but that's where similarities often end.

I'm talking about all of it.  Anton Lavey said "the purest form of Satanism is true Atheism".   Gnostics believe in becoming exalted into Gods... Either way its about putting your will before God's.
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« Reply #91 on: August 16, 2012, 05:18:05 AM »

I'm talking about all of it.  Anton Lavey said "the purest form of Satanism is true Atheism".   Gnostics believe in becoming exalted into Gods... Either way its about putting your will before God's.

I know what's on your mind, but what do Christians believe in?
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« Reply #92 on: August 17, 2012, 10:46:30 PM »

You've missed the conversation my friend, try again.

We aren't talking just about Laveyan Satanism. Mystic's and Magicians outside the boundaries of Christendom have been accused of Devil-Worship and "Satanism" since at least the 1800's.

Ok, now I understand. So, we are not talking only about laveyan satanism, but theistic satanism, gnosticism, palladism and so forth. I'm sure though, that both of us will agree we should stick to the official definitions, in other case we'll get all tangled up. So we can't speak in loose term "satanism", because it's like merging Jehova's Witnesses with Roman Catholics and saying they're "Christians". The former believe in God, the latter believe in defiance, but that's where similarities often end.

I'm talking about all of it.  Anton Lavey said "the purest form of Satanism is true Atheism".   Gnostics believe in becoming exalted into Gods... Either way its about putting your will before God's.

Unless of course you contend that your will is analogous to God's. That "will" not being every petty desire that comes across your mind, but the perfected mechanism buried deep within Man- which acts in accordance with the "universal" schema and does ONLY what is needed and nothing else. That's something totally different though. Wink

Anton LaVey, or as his father called him, Howard Levey- was quite the showman. He was like an L. Ron Hubbard, but far less malicious in my opinion. His doctrine was silly and he HAD to have known that. He was once quoted as saying:
Quote
"My religion is just Ayn Rand's philosophy with ceremony and ritual added."

Plus, he took some of the Enochian Magic work that John Dee "developed" (and much later, Crowley and The Hermetic Order of The Golden Dawn) and simply replaced the names of God with Satan. I've met a couple of Satanist's, they're not all that interesting (or bright, for that matter) in my experience. While i have nothing against these individuals myself, their philosophy has an unhealthy habit raising the Ego to the God level. The identification of the Self with the body and it's passions alone are hardly a good way to live. If you're looking for any sort of improvement anyway.... Oh well.
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« Reply #93 on: August 17, 2012, 10:52:59 PM »

Either way. Whether or not Satanism=Atheism, based on the definitions alone, Atheism does not = Satanism.

This seems simple enough, right? police
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 10:53:26 PM by Babalon » Logged

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« Reply #94 on: August 18, 2012, 12:01:36 AM »

Babalon what is your jurisdiction?
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« Reply #95 on: August 18, 2012, 12:12:04 AM »

Babalon what is your jurisdiction?

I'm not a Christian.
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« Reply #96 on: August 18, 2012, 12:20:32 AM »

Babalon what is your jurisdiction?

I'm not a Christian.
Now I understand your confusion.
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« Reply #97 on: August 18, 2012, 12:26:40 AM »

Babalon what is your jurisdiction?

I'm not a Christian.
Now I understand your confusion.

And what exactly am i confused about?
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« Reply #98 on: August 18, 2012, 12:33:29 AM »

Babalon what is your jurisdiction?

I'm not a Christian.
Now I understand your confusion.

And what exactly am i confused about?
A great many things, but the point is, without the most basic understanding of what is going on, it is easy to become confused.
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« Reply #99 on: August 18, 2012, 12:41:26 AM »

Babalon what is your jurisdiction?

I'm not a Christian.
Now I understand your confusion.

And what exactly am i confused about?
A great many things, but the point is, without the most basic understanding of what is going on, it is easy to become confused.
Your arrogance is impressive.

I'm quite comfortable with being wrong on certain issues, i like to learn- but If you're going to make a statement like that and refuse to explain it, it's better that you just keep silent from now on.
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« Reply #100 on: August 18, 2012, 12:46:10 AM »

I know that, but what is this:

A.'.A.'.
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« Reply #101 on: August 18, 2012, 12:54:22 AM »

I know that, but what is this:

A.'.A.'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.%27.A.%27.
http://outercol.org/
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« Reply #102 on: August 18, 2012, 01:07:48 AM »


Far out  Cool
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« Reply #103 on: August 18, 2012, 01:11:14 AM »

 Kiss
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« Reply #104 on: August 18, 2012, 01:12:58 AM »

Babalon what is your jurisdiction?

I'm not a Christian.
Now I understand your confusion.

And what exactly am i confused about?
A great many things, but the point is, without the most basic understanding of what is going on, it is easy to become confused.
Your arrogance is impressive.

I'm quite comfortable with being wrong on certain issues, i like to learn- but If you're going to make a statement like that and refuse to explain it, it's better that you just keep silent from now on.
Perhaps, but easily surpassed by your own.  I did explain.  Read the entire thread again if you must.  You seem unclear on several key issues, none of which you grasp the fullness of, thus the confusion.  You aren't alone and its in no way a personal jab.  I simply have a better understanding of where you are coming from.  Be defensive if you wish.  It's of no consequence to me.
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« Reply #105 on: August 18, 2012, 01:16:23 AM »

And this clarifies your elusive inquiry about magic.  Yes, I am beginning to understand a great deal now.
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« Reply #106 on: August 18, 2012, 01:18:45 AM »

Babalon what is your jurisdiction?

I'm not a Christian.
Now I understand your confusion.

And what exactly am i confused about?
A great many things, but the point is, without the most basic understanding of what is going on, it is easy to become confused.
Your arrogance is impressive.

I'm quite comfortable with being wrong on certain issues, i like to learn- but If you're going to make a statement like that and refuse to explain it, it's better that you just keep silent from now on.
Perhaps, but easily surpassed by your own.  I did explain.  Read the entire thread again if you must.  You seem unclear on several key issues, none of which you grasp the fullness of, thus the confusion.  You aren't alone and its in no way a personal jab.  I simply have a better understanding of where you are coming from.  Be defensive if you wish.  It's of no consequence to me.

Which one's? My particular interpretation of the word "heretic"?

I would never be so bold as to assume that i have a "better understanding of where you are coming from", than say, you.

Explain. I'm not attacking you, im just (at last!) confused.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 01:21:09 AM by Babalon » Logged

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