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Author Topic: Are Atheists really Satanists / Luciferians?  (Read 4057 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: June 01, 2011, 05:33:36 AM »

Here's the question that I always ask Atheists (not to condemn but because I want to know):

If you do not believe in God including any God in the world - who's will in your life do you follow?

The most common answer is: "I follow my own will" or "my own".

Aleister Crowley, a practicing Gnostic/Luciferian/Mason/Satanist said "Do what thy wilt shall be the whole of the law" and that people should live in tune to their "own will".

This roughly translates into "follow your own will".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliester_Crowley

Even Anton Levey, the co-founder of the Church of Satan and author of the Satanic Bible has said "True Atheism is the purest form of Satanism".  He's also known to say "Do what you will". 

The Wicca (a fast growing religion in the USA & World) are witches who recite the witches creed (who claim to practice white magic).  Included in the creed is the saying of Aleister Crowley of "Do what thy will".   http://roswell.fortunecity.com/necronomicon/310/WitchCraft/creed.html

In Isaiah 14, Lucifer cast HIMSELF above God and followed his own will & made himself a God unto himself.

At the fall of Eve in the Garden the Satan promised Eve that "She would be like God" if she ate from the "tree of knowledge", which she did. (Gnostic).

So with that said, if an Atheist is following their own will, are they not a God unto themselves?
Isn't this the exact thing as a Satanist, Gnostic, or Luciferian practice?

Do what thy wilt
vs.
Thy will be done (God's will in the Lord's prayer)

One is Luciferian, one is Christian.

Are Atheists really Satanists?

I know all Satanists claim to be Atheists.

What do you think?
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« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2011, 07:41:46 AM »

You could argue that anyone going against the will of God is a "Satanist" but then the phrase because less useful.

Crowley believed many insane things but he wasn't an atheist.

Anton Lavey's "Satanism" has more to do with Ayn Rand than with Crowley.

Wicca is not fast-growing. All of the "wiccans" I ever met grew out of it and moved on.

Also, it's "do what thou wilt." "Do what thy wilt" is nonsense.
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« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2011, 09:31:27 AM »

I will just say this:

1.) The Church of Satan does not actually teach Satan exists, let alone do they really worship him (at least knowingly);

2.) Just because one atheist says "True Atheism is the purest form of Satanism" does not mean any other atheist agrees
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« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2011, 09:58:46 PM »

In my opinion, it's not worthwhile putting personal energy into understanding Atheists/Satanists such as in the original post.
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« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2011, 11:47:32 PM »

You could argue that anyone going against the will of God is a "Satanist" but then the phrase because less useful.

Crowley believed many insane things but he wasn't an atheist.

Anton Lavey's "Satanism" has more to do with Ayn Rand than with Crowley.

Wicca is not fast-growing. All of the "wiccans" I ever met grew out of it and moved on.

Also, it's "do what thou wilt." "Do what thy wilt" is nonsense.


Thank you.

"Love is the Law, Love under Will."
"Every man is a star."

Crowley ain't as simple as the people he lampooned.

Fascinating guy.

lulz at Lavey and Ayn Rand.
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« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2011, 01:12:21 AM »

My guess is that most atheists are materialists who don't believe in either God or Satan.
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« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2011, 01:45:35 AM »

My guess is that most atheists are materialists who don't believe in either God or Satan.

You might be surprised by the inane and contradictory and inanely-contradictory things the backyard variety atheist believes.
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« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2011, 07:58:27 AM »

Are you saying that some atheists do believe in either/both God or/and Satan?

Speaking of this, I know someone who insists that he is an atheist but claims to believe God exists...I suppose 'dictionary' is a word he's never heard of
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« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2011, 10:17:14 AM »

...I suppose 'dictionary' is a word he's never heard of

he must not believe in them...
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« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2011, 10:42:34 AM »

The devil's greatest trick is convincing us he doesn't exist.  (I don't know who originally said this, but I'm pretty sure it's in The Rite.)
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« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2011, 10:57:57 AM »

Much of this dodges the point though.  (Heh, great quote though about the devil's greatest trick)


If we follow our own will as Atheists will tell you, they are basically their own ruler.  This would make them God's unto their selves or no ruler but themselves.

If you do that you are doing what Lucifer did in Isaiah 14.

The quotes from Crowley & The Church of Satan are exactly as Lucifer did.  Especially Crowley, even though he was not an Atheist.   He was mostly a Freemason in the OTO, who took the divine liturgy and blasphemed it in a Gnostic satanic service.

Gnosticism is the enemy of Christianity (see the book of Jude).  It makes you a God unto yourself, just like Atheists seem to be.
(Do you like the movie the Matrix?  Completely a Gnostic film)
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« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2011, 02:16:32 PM »

Much of this dodges the point though.  (Heh, great quote though about the devil's greatest trick)


If we follow our own will as Atheists will tell you, they are basically their own ruler.  This would make them God's unto their selves or no ruler but themselves.

If you do that you are doing what Lucifer did in Isaiah 14.

The quotes from Crowley & The Church of Satan are exactly as Lucifer did.  Especially Crowley, even though he was not an Atheist.   He was mostly a Freemason in the OTO, who took the divine liturgy and blasphemed it in a Gnostic satanic service.

Gnosticism is the enemy of Christianity (see the book of Jude).  It makes you a God unto yourself, just like Atheists seem to be.
(Do you like the movie the Matrix?  Completely a Gnostic film)

Oh poor Aleister Crowley! Who understands what you did?

High Order Troll of the Golden Dawn. Mr. Misunderstood wrote a couplet on it:

My friends call me Crowley
because they think I'm holy.
My enemies call me Crowley
because they wish to treat me foully.

He mocked brilliantly more newage pagans, theosophists, "Satanists", soon to be cult leaders, than most who've walked the planet.

The Andy Kaufman of the Occult.

lulz.

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« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2011, 02:49:50 PM »

+ Irini nem ehmot,

The devil's greatest trick is convincing us he doesn't exist.  (I don't know who originally said this, but I'm pretty sure it's in The Rite.)

Who is Keyser Soze? He is supposed to be Turkish. Some say his father was German. Nobody believed he was real. Nobody ever saw him or knew anybody that ever worked directly for him, but to hear Kobayashi tell it, anybody could have worked for Soze. You never knew. That was his power. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. And like that, poof. He's gone. - Roger 'Verbal' Kint
The Usual Suspects
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« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2011, 02:55:34 PM »

+ Irini nem ehmot,

The devil's greatest trick is convincing us he doesn't exist.  (I don't know who originally said this, but I'm pretty sure it's in The Rite.)

Who is Keyser Soze? He is supposed to be Turkish. Some say his father was German. Nobody believed he was real. Nobody ever saw him or knew anybody that ever worked directly for him, but to hear Kobayashi tell it, anybody could have worked for Soze. You never knew. That was his power. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. And like that, poof. He's gone. - Roger 'Verbal' Kint
The Usual Suspects

Nice. Just re-watched an episode of BtVS where his name is used as a verb. Just wiki'ed to see if it would be listed in the entry and lo and behold:

Quote
The second use of the name in popular culture is a shorthand reference to being fooled, by an actual villain, into believing in a villain who does not exist. This use of the name is owed to the film's twist ending. One such reference can be found in "The Puppet Show," an episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, where upon discovering the disappearance of a possessed dummy that had convinced the heroes it was on their side, Xander Harris asks, "Does anyone else feel like they've been Keyser Sözed?"[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyser_S%C3%B6ze#In_popular_culture
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« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2011, 03:22:01 PM »

+ Irini nem ehmot,

The devil's greatest trick is convincing us he doesn't exist.  (I don't know who originally said this, but I'm pretty sure it's in The Rite.)

Who is Keyser Soze? He is supposed to be Turkish. Some say his father was German. Nobody believed he was real. Nobody ever saw him or knew anybody that ever worked directly for him, but to hear Kobayashi tell it, anybody could have worked for Soze. You never knew. That was his power. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. And like that, poof. He's gone. - Roger 'Verbal' Kint
The Usual Suspects

The phrase actually comes from at least the mid 19th century.
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« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2011, 03:25:31 PM »

+ Irini nem ehmot,

The devil's greatest trick is convincing us he doesn't exist.  (I don't know who originally said this, but I'm pretty sure it's in The Rite.)

Who is Keyser Soze? He is supposed to be Turkish. Some say his father was German. Nobody believed he was real. Nobody ever saw him or knew anybody that ever worked directly for him, but to hear Kobayashi tell it, anybody could have worked for Soze. You never knew. That was his power. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. And like that, poof. He's gone. - Roger 'Verbal' Kint
The Usual Suspects

The phrase actually comes from at least the mid 19th century.

I was unclear if Cephas was sourcing it or providing a nice use of it in pop-culture.

If you want a lazy attempt at sourcing it, give me 15.4 seconds.
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« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2011, 03:27:38 PM »

Quote
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Charles Baudelaire, "The Generous Gambler" (Feb. 1864)

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Devil

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« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2011, 03:34:05 PM »

Quote
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Charles Baudelaire, "The Generous Gambler" (Feb. 1864)

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Devil



knew it was Baudelaire, wasn't sure which work it was.  I'm also not entirely sure the quote originated with Baudelaire, or if he was using a phrase that existed even longer.
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« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2011, 03:42:55 PM »

Quote
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Charles Baudelaire, "The Generous Gambler" (Feb. 1864)

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Devil



knew it was Baudelaire, wasn't sure which work it was.  I'm also not entirely sure the quote originated with Baudelaire, or if he was using a phrase that existed even longer.

OK show off. You should have put all your cards on the table. You got the time period correct. If you said Baudelaire, we all would praise you and secretly believe you just wikiquoted like I did.

Could be older, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Baudelaire didn't at least put it in that pithy form. French lit is a piano of mine, but from my other interests, it is surprising how many pithy sayings came into language from literature during the mid to late 19th century that seem as though they are nearly timeless.

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« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2011, 04:42:15 PM »

As for the Matrix supposedly being Gnostic, is it really?  The whole point of the movie is about how evil the false reality is and how the heroes of the movie want to live in the physical world.  It is practically the exact opposite of gnosticism which wants to escape the physical.
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« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2011, 05:30:34 PM »

As for the Matrix supposedly being Gnostic, is it really?  The whole point of the movie is about how evil the false reality is and how the heroes of the movie want to live in the physical world.  It is practically the exact opposite of gnosticism which wants to escape the physical.

Did this just become MC.net (megachurch.net)? Wink

With all the misagos of pop-cult examples to understand "Christianity"?

Frankly, I pretty much substitute I don't know what I am talking about when pretty much anyone says the word gnosticism especially when attempting to make something like the Matrix more than the pretty crummy film that it is.

I can see your point, but you have you watch all three installments unfortunately to try to understand the coffe-shop-hodge-podge of ideas the filmakers are trying to put on show.

Love Freud showing up at the end.
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« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2011, 05:36:05 PM »

As for the Matrix supposedly being Gnostic, is it really?  The whole point of the movie is about how evil the false reality is and how the heroes of the movie want to live in the physical world.  It is practically the exact opposite of gnosticism which wants to escape the physical.

Did this just become MC.net (megachurch.net)? Wink

With all the misagos of pop-cult examples to understand "Christianity"?

Frankly, I pretty much substitute I don't know what I am talking about when pretty much anyone says the word gnosticism especially when attempting to make something like the Matrix more than the pretty crummy film that it is.

I can see your point, but you have you watch all three installments unfortunately to try to understand the coffe-shop-hodge-podge of ideas the filmakers are trying to put on show.

Love Freud showing up at the end.

First bubble tea, now the Matrix. You are missing out, man.
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« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2011, 05:40:05 PM »

Are you saying that some atheists do believe in either/both God or/and Satan?

Speaking of this, I know someone who insists that he is an atheist but claims to believe God exists...I suppose 'dictionary' is a word he's never heard of

So many of them believe in souls, spirits, life energy, an impersonal "force", life after death, an impoverished and stupid version of karma -- yet the idea of a God who insists on certain moral standards is repugnant to them. Go figure.

Most are not materialists at all, despite whatever they might say when it comes to the God question.
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« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2011, 05:42:00 PM »

]Frankly, I pretty much substitute I don't know what I am talking about when pretty much anyone says the word gnosticism

Yup. 

Quote
especially when attempting to make something like the Matrix more than the pretty crummy film that it is.

Yup again.

Bubble tea is awesome though.
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« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2011, 05:42:39 PM »

As for the Matrix supposedly being Gnostic, is it really?  The whole point of the movie is about how evil the false reality is and how the heroes of the movie want to live in the physical world.  It is practically the exact opposite of gnosticism which wants to escape the physical.

Did this just become MC.net (megachurch.net)? Wink

With all the misagos of pop-cult examples to understand "Christianity"?

Frankly, I pretty much substitute I don't know what I am talking about when pretty much anyone says the word gnosticism especially when attempting to make something like the Matrix more than the pretty crummy film that it is.

I can see your point, but you have you watch all three installments unfortunately to try to understand the coffe-shop-hodge-podge of ideas the filmakers are trying to put on show.

Love Freud showing up at the end.

First bubble tea, now the Matrix. You are missing out, man.


I was wondering if you were going to chime in on the bubble tea. Vulgar.

Sorry, but this gaijin doesn't think he is the alien when in Japan.
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« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2011, 05:44:37 PM »

I was considering busting out my Baudelaire translations on this thread but I didn't want to appear pretentious. Or am I even more pretentious for mentioning that I did them and not producing them?
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« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2011, 05:48:46 PM »

All I am saying it is not for nothing that bubble tea turns up in a thread about Satanism.

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« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2011, 06:03:46 PM »

I was considering busting out my Baudelaire translations on this thread but I didn't want to appear pretentious. Or am I even more pretentious for mentioning that I did them and not producing them?

Hard to know.
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« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2011, 06:08:00 PM »

As for the Matrix supposedly being Gnostic, is it really?  The whole point of the movie is about how evil the false reality is and how the heroes of the movie want to live in the physical world.  It is practically the exact opposite of gnosticism which wants to escape the physical.

Did this just become MC.net (megachurch.net)? Wink

With all the misagos of pop-cult examples to understand "Christianity"?

Frankly, I pretty much substitute I don't know what I am talking about when pretty much anyone says the word gnosticism especially when attempting to make something like the Matrix more than the pretty crummy film that it is.

I can see your point, but you have you watch all three installments unfortunately to try to understand the coffe-shop-hodge-podge of ideas the filmakers are trying to put on show.

Love Freud showing up at the end.

First bubble tea, now the Matrix. You are missing out, man.


I was wondering if you were going to chime in on the bubble tea. Vulgar.

Sorry, but this gaijin doesn't think he is the alien when in Japan.

バブルティーは永遠の幸せの秘密だ。

I detect a streak of hipster in your contempt for the tastes of the hoi polloi.
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« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2011, 03:45:49 AM »

+ Irini nem ehmot,

+ Irini nem ehmot,

The devil's greatest trick is convincing us he doesn't exist.  (I don't know who originally said this, but I'm pretty sure it's in The Rite.)

Who is Keyser Soze? He is supposed to be Turkish. Some say his father was German. Nobody believed he was real. Nobody ever saw him or knew anybody that ever worked directly for him, but to hear Kobayashi tell it, anybody could have worked for Soze. You never knew. That was his power. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. And like that, poof. He's gone. - Roger 'Verbal' Kint
The Usual Suspects

The phrase actually comes from at least the mid 19th century.

I was unclear if Cephas was sourcing it or providing a nice use of it in pop-culture.

If you want a lazy attempt at sourcing it, give me 15.4 seconds.

I was more just pointing out that the quote was from the film 'The Usual Suspects' and not 'The Rite' (the former being an incredible movie and the latter being pretty decent).
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-- Isaiah 53:5

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« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2011, 06:04:15 AM »

Are you saying that some atheists do believe in either/both God or/and Satan?

Speaking of this, I know someone who insists that he is an atheist but claims to believe God exists...I suppose 'dictionary' is a word he's never heard of

So many of them believe in souls, spirits, life energy, an impersonal "force", life after death, an impoverished and stupid version of karma -- yet the idea of a God who insists on certain moral standards is repugnant to them. Go figure.

Most are not materialists at all, despite whatever they might say when it comes to the God question.

I like you Akimori. You have a very Australian way of expressing yourself. I can relate. You are very direct and I dig that.
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« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2011, 07:39:22 AM »

The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, the orgainzation that Aleister Crowley began practicing Ritual Magic in, had Chrisitan antecedents. Many Rosicrucian orders-until the late 1880s I believe-in the U.S., admitted only Freemasons "who were Trinitarian Christians." It was, in fact, a man who was later supposedly an Orthodox Bishop who led the first Rosicrucian Society that admitted non-Masons (the Societa Rosicruciae in America), as he felt the "message" need to go beyond Freemasons. This was George Winslow Plummer, whose primary interest was "esoteric Christianity." Plummer was 'consecrated' by William Albert Nichols, who was 'consecrated by Archbishop Aftimios (Ofiesh). Plummer headed an organization called The Holy Orthodox Church in America.
The Ritual Magic of Crowley, and Samuel Liddell MacGregor Mathers, a co-founder of the Order of the Golden Dawn, went far beyond Freemasonry and Rosicrucianism.
Crowley is said to have gone insane after a ritual in the Sahara Desert, where he supposedly actually summoned a demon, thinking he could control it, and have it do his (Crowley's) will.
While Crowley may have been a Freemason at one point, I would think that Freemasonry would have been very tame stuff to Crowley, and he would have lost interest. I supposes that is easy enough to accept unless you think the Masons are 'taking over the world.' I suppose one could argue that all 'esoteric Christianity' is Gnosticism, but I would think that is not necessarily so.
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« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2011, 07:42:14 AM »

To conclude, Aleister Crowley was not what we know as a "Satanist" today ...
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« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2011, 03:05:57 PM »

The Wicca (a fast growing religion in the USA & World) are witches who recite the witches creed (who claim to practice white magic).  Included in the creed is the saying of Aleister Crowley of "Do what thy will".   http://roswell.fortunecity.com/necronomicon/310/WitchCraft/creed.html

I don't think it's wise to bring the Wiccans into this. Included, yes. But the meaning in the topic you are addressing changes if you quote the whole thing: "If it harm none, do what ye will". Wiccans have some sense of objective morality. And they are certainly not atheists. And they derive this objective morality from their conception of deity.
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« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2011, 03:05:57 PM »

Are you saying that some atheists do believe in either/both God or/and Satan?

Speaking of this, I know someone who insists that he is an atheist but claims to believe God exists...I suppose 'dictionary' is a word he's never heard of

So many of them believe in souls, spirits, life energy, an impersonal "force", life after death, an impoverished and stupid version of karma -- yet the idea of a God who insists on certain moral standards is repugnant to them. Go figure.

Most are not materialists at all, despite whatever they might say when it comes to the God question.

Good point!  Smiley
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« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2011, 06:07:44 AM »

Thanks, David and DVE -- needed a bit of a boost today!
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The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
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« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2011, 12:54:58 PM »

As for the Matrix supposedly being Gnostic, is it really?  The whole point of the movie is about how evil the false reality is and how the heroes of the movie want to live in the physical world.  It is practically the exact opposite of gnosticism which wants to escape the physical.

It's a lot darker than most people imagine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdUwgkGi8wI
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« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2011, 01:12:52 AM »

It's only a movie ... It's only a movie ... It's only a movie ... It's only a movie ... It's only a movie ... It's only a movie ... It's only a movie ... It's only a movie ... It's only a movie ... It's only a movie ... It's only a movie ... It's only a movie ... It's only a movie ... It's only a movie ...

(your supposed to say that over and over when you get scared of things happening in a movie -oops-it seems to me, in this forum, i had better say in a "film" ... It's only a film ... It's only a film ...)

Maybe what I should really be saying is, It's only orthodoxchristianity.net ... It's only orthodoxchristianity.net ... It's only orthodoxchristianity.net ... It's only orthodoxchristianity.net ... It's only orthodoxchristianity.net ... It's only orthodoxchristianity.net ...
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« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2011, 05:20:08 AM »

This is relevant to my interests.
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« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2011, 08:48:28 AM »

Well, since the thread has been resurrected...

I don't know if atheists are really satanists, but most Anton Levay style Church of Satan satanists are really atheists. The whole "satanism" aspect is for late '60s shock value. I remember years ago researching on the subject and being immensely disappointed upon discovering this- and upon discovering that the religion is mainly about a humanistic approach to morality (along with that oh-so- Age of Aquarius belief that Christianity was the greatest of evils, a criticism born of the Modern Age's belief that its morality was spun from the void as opposed to being the product of 2000 years of Christian morality). The Jack Chick conspiracy theories are just more fun, y'know?
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Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!
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« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2011, 02:29:23 AM »

Well despite the thread being hijacked some, I'd love input on some of the things I presented.


In Isaiah 14, Lucifer made himself a God and put himself over YHWH.

In the same way Adam and Eve disobeyed God using their own will to obtain "The knowledge of good and evil" that he serpent replied "You will be like God".

Satanists = Make themselves God and are complete Atheists.  Anton Levey said "the purest form of true satanism is Atheism".

Luciferians = Are like the Masons who have "worshipful masters", blood oaths, and Albert Pike wrote that the God of masonry was "lucifer".
Mormons = Believe in becoming exalted men (both Joseph Smith & Brigham young were masons).  Again, self exaltation like Lucifer in Isaiah 14.

Gnostics like crowley believe that YHWH was a horrible god, and you must "break free" from your suppressor and become a God yourself as reflected of "Neo" in the Matrix. (Watch Youtube in above post)  The famous saying by Crowley is "Do what thy wilt shall be the whole of the law".


When we do our own will we are like Adam & Eve and becoming "like God" and putting ourselves over God's will as Lucifer did in Isaiah 14.

I can only summarize this as:

Do what thy wilt  vs. Thy (God's) will be done.


Atheists believe in following their own will, just like Satanists, Gnostics, exalted Mormons, and Higher level Masons.

I can only conclude that the belief of Atheists is the belief of Satanists.

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« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2011, 02:29:23 AM »

You could argue that anyone going against the will of God is a "Satanist" but then the phrase because less useful.

Crowley believed many insane things but he wasn't an atheist.

Anton Lavey's "Satanism" has more to do with Ayn Rand than with Crowley.

Wicca is not fast-growing. All of the "wiccans" I ever met grew out of it and moved on.

Also, it's "do what thou wilt." "Do what thy wilt" is nonsense.


Thank you.

"Love is the Law, Love under Will."
"Every man is a star."

Crowley ain't as simple as the people he lampooned.

Fascinating guy.

lulz at Lavey and Ayn Rand.

Yep real fascinating?Huh   Crowley talks about sacrificing male children and drinking semen of the sacrificed.  He also designed a black "liturgy" mirrored off the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.   Of course it involves snakes, and the "eucharist" he served consisted of bodily fluids.   His two children also mysteriously died and he had his wife engage in "relations" with goats and other animals.

His own mother believed he was the anti-Christ.
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« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2012, 05:31:37 PM »

You could argue that anyone going against the will of God is a "Satanist" but then the phrase because less useful.

Crowley believed many insane things but he wasn't an atheist.

Anton Lavey's "Satanism" has more to do with Ayn Rand than with Crowley.

Wicca is not fast-growing. All of the "wiccans" I ever met grew out of it and moved on.

Also, it's "do what thou wilt." "Do what thy wilt" is nonsense.


Thank you.

"Love is the Law, Love under Will."
"Every man is a star."

Crowley ain't as simple as the people he lampooned.

Fascinating guy.

lulz at Lavey and Ayn Rand.

Yep real fascinating?Huh   Crowley talks about sacrificing male children and drinking semen of the sacrificed.  He also designed a black "liturgy" mirrored off the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.   Of course it involves snakes, and the "eucharist" he served consisted of bodily fluids.   His two children also mysteriously died and he had his wife engage in "relations" with goats and other animals.

His own mother believed he was the anti-Christ.

I call forth the spirits of the dammed and say unto you,  rise! Rise from the abodes of the eternal night, wherein all dead threads rest.

It's really unwise to gather your information from Fundamentalist Christians. Especially on "Occult" matters. They are, more often than not, mistaken. Im not sure why anyone would consult the enemies of an individual(s) or philosophy, if they truely wished to penetrate to the heart of the subject. Would you consult Adolf Hitler if you wanted to learn about Jewish Theology? So why would you rely on paranoid, sensational websites and hostile authors to get a fair account of the Great Beast??
 Lets break this down play by play, and since ive taken it upon my self to lay claim as OC.net's resident Crowley scholar; I'm obviously qualified to address this issue.  Wink

First off, This whole issue of the child sacrafice is perhaps the most common criticism leveled at Mr. Crowley, yet on no other statement in any of his works,  does he give such dire words concerning the inevitable misinterpretation of the passage. If any of these motor-mouths ever cared to actually READ the book, they would have noticed the flashing asterisk* staring them in the face at the end of the sentence, followed by a lengthy footnote on it by both Crowley and the Editors of the later editions.
From Book 4, "LIBER ABA" concerning the "bloody sacrifice":

Quote
"It is the sacrifice of oneself spiritually. And the intelligence and innocence of that male child are the perfect understanding of The magician, his one aim, without lust of result. And male he must be, because what he sacrifices is not the material blood but his creative power."

"Crowley specifies self-sacrifice that does not result in serious injury or death; his remarks also have a sex-magical interpretation. He is advocating neither suicide nor ritual murder.
From time immemorial, certain mystics have associated the orgasmic release with death, for in that moment, the perception of the individual and the normal mode of consciousness is blotted out in psycho, spiritual and physical ecstasy. Since the creative/active principle of the universe has traditionally been considered Masculine, the creative principle in the microcosmic man would be his ability to reproduce. His seed. The Young. Male. Child. And the sacrifice of this child, would be orgasmic release without the intent of conceiving real human children. In other words, "without lust of result."
This of course is just the rude, exoteric, sexual-interpretation.

The real divine comedy begins when you realize that, at the time of the books publication (1913, I believe it was), due to the wildly idiotic "decency laws" a writer could land his or herself in prison for writing about sex. Yet, you could get away with writing about KILLING CHILDREN! HAHAHA. You got to love people, man. So incredibly stupid.

Second on the list, Crowley never wrote a "Black" anything. That whole term is a goofy way of saying "We aren't cool with how you worship God." And perhaps at another time I'll ill go into the whole "black magic" issue, but not here. I don't want to waste any more of your time with my jibbering insanity than I have to.
 However, and correct me if I'm wrong, I believe you're talking about:
Quote
The Gnostic Mass —technically called Liber XV or "Book 15" —Crowley wrote Liber XV in1913 while travelling in Moscow, Russia. In many ways it is similar in structure to the Mass of the Eastern Orthodox Church. However, the comparison ends there, as Liber XV is a celebration of the principles of Thelema.
He wrote it :
Quote
 "under the influence of the Liturgy of St. Basil of the Russian Church."
- http://oto-usa.org/egc.html

Host and wine during religious ceremony is not a practice originating in Christianity. I'm sure you know this. However, it does seem fairly obvious to me, having attended several Gnostic Masses myself, that it IS heavily influenced by EO and RC services,but carrying a far different intention. I know that in several places, though I cant remember where, that Crowley expressed great admiration for the Old Liturgy. If there was one thing Crowley never did,  that was fail to give credit when credit was due. He always cited his sources and openly proclaimed his eclecticism. The intention of the Mass was to reintroduce the full spectrum of life and its cycles, with emphasis on Thelemic cosmology, back into the ceremony, which he felt had been lacking or lost in the Christian tradition.

As for the snakes you mentioned?  I have no clue where you got that from. Sounds like some of the silly crap the Laveyan Satanist's do up in West Hollywood. The Eucharist however, does have some truth to it. Its taken from a couple of passages in the Book of the law,  where one is instructed to do such. It is important to take note of the symbolism behind these ingredients. Also noone was ever, or is ever, served these ingredients during communion. If in private ceremonies, a couple (or maybe a few!) lover's and/or magicians choose to partake of this sacrament so be it. I assure you nothing is consumed that isn't consumed during intercourse between the average married couple. It is literally the Mystic Marriage! Lulz.  Anyway... on to the next one.

There was nothing "Mysterious" about a 3 year old catching Typhoid in South east Asia in 1907. Just very very sad. It drove his wife deeper into her alcoholism, and saddened Crowley to no end. It didn't help that a similar fate would be befall another child of his,  in the future. He may have been all over the place, but from what we can tell by his diary entries on the subject, he loved and cherished his children very much:
Quote
" Part of my plan in coming here is to dig up the bitter memories which have been killing me. I was so happy and hopeful here two years ago; and now my little Poupee(his nickname for the deceased daughter) has been dead over a year and her little brother never came to birth; and my manhood in part is crushed]"
" The day had been one of anguish. Poupee peeped from every alley in the forest."
-Fountains of Hyacinth (1922 diary entry)

There has been no evidence that has surfaced that shows any kind of validation for the beastiality incident actually occurring. Though in numerous places we have Crowley calling himself "an" or "the Old Goat". We also have other people, usually women, affectionately referring to him as such too. Perhaps another misenterpretation of his subversive sexual writing? Who knows.

Finally, concerning his Mother, all we have is Crowleys account. She was part of the Plymouth Bretheren. A fanatical evangelical group, stressing the absolute LITERAL interpretation of the king James Bible. He despised his mother for the way she treated him. And its not merely due to her "Christian" orientation, for his father was a traveling preacher! A man he loved and admired deeply. Perhaps if he had lived, we wouldn't have "The Great Beast" we've all come to know and love. Wink
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 05:39:04 PM by Babalon » Logged

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« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2012, 05:44:32 PM »

There are only two sides in the battle for the souls of man, God or Satan.  If you are not for one, you are for the other as in, if you are not for God, you are for Satan.
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2012, 05:48:36 PM »

I pine for the old days, when anyone not a Trinitarian Christian was called an atheist. Ahh, good times.
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St. Basil is great!

Wonder if he drank goat's milk . . .

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