OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 30, 2014, 08:18:23 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Greek Orthodox Christians renew calls for Arabising Church Leadership  (Read 2145 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« on: May 31, 2011, 02:03:55 PM »

AMMAN – Jordanian members of the Greek Orthodox Church have renewed calls for Patriarch Theophilus III to step down and for Arabising the leadership of the Greek-led church...
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Alveus Lacuna
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,891



« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2011, 02:22:11 PM »

Sounds pretty racist.
Logged
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,121


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2011, 02:42:57 PM »

I get barely any (if any) hint of racism.  I see far more of a desire to have the Church hierarchy reflect the people, to have someone who comes from the same cultural background as the people in the Church to lead the Church.  It would be as though you took some French monk and made him Bishop of Mexico.  It makes little sense, because he CANNOT fully understand and appreciate the Mexican Church the same way as someone who was raised in Mexico.  I mean, this is the same reason that the OCA has a Mexican as the Exarchate of Mexico, as opposed to having an American - because the Mexican will better understand the cultural and historical paradigms of Mexico when compared to the American.
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 6,800



« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2011, 03:31:30 PM »

Sounds pretty racist.

You have misunderstood everything. Racism is a thing that only white Western European/American and Protestant/Catholic men can do. More colorful people with exotic religions just express their cultural richness.
Logged

GreekChef
Prez
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America: Metropolis of Atlanta
Posts: 884



« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2011, 03:55:15 PM »

You have misunderstood everything. Racism is a thing that only white Western European/American and Protestant/Catholic men can do. More colorful people with exotic religions just express their cultural richness.

Not to be rude, but this is a completely ridiculous statement which totally ignores reality.  But that's a conversation for another thread.

Personally, I don't think it's racist per se.  But I do think it's completely misguided.  What we should be seeking in Church leaders is holiness and an ability to shepherd their flock, not the right color or ethnic background (and this goes for ALL Churches, those here in America too!).  Though He Himself was a Jew, Christ came for all people, not just Jews.  Sure, it's great if we can find someone of the same cultural background, but this is not a reason to call for the removal of a bishop!
Logged

Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
Matthew 18:5
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,472


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2011, 04:03:43 PM »

You have misunderstood everything. Racism is a thing that only white Western European/American and Protestant/Catholic men can do. More colorful people with exotic religions just express their cultural richness.

Not to be rude, but this is a completely ridiculous statement which totally ignores reality.  But that's a conversation for another thread.

Personally, I don't think it's racist per se.  But I do think it's completely misguided.  What we should be seeking in Church leaders is holiness and an ability to shepherd their flock, not the right color or ethnic background (and this goes for ALL Churches, those here in America too!).  Though He Himself was a Jew, Christ came for all people, not just Jews.  Sure, it's great if we can find someone of the same cultural background, but this is not a reason to call for the removal of a bishop!

I agree.
Logged
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2011, 04:27:29 PM »

What we should be seeking in Church leaders is holiness and an ability to shepherd their flock, not the right color or ethnic background (and this goes for ALL Churches, those here in America too!).
Completely agreed, but isn't the Arab complaint that the upper echelon of leadership is seemingly always chosen based on a particular ethnic background, which happens to be Greek?

Quote
Sure, it's great if we can find someone of the same cultural background, but this is not a reason to call for the removal of a bishop!
Agreed again, and if that is the sole reason for calling for the bishop's removal, then I think it's a bit weak.  At the same time, I think it's extremely important to retain and evangelize these areas, and if only appointing Greeks presents a barrier to this, that should be considered. 

While I don't want to branch off into this topic, it has been argued that an overly 'Greek' hierarchy and focus within the Church of this area alienated much of the population and contributed to the early and thorough success of Islamic conversion.
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
GreekChef
Prez
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America: Metropolis of Atlanta
Posts: 884



« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2011, 04:32:15 PM »

What we should be seeking in Church leaders is holiness and an ability to shepherd their flock, not the right color or ethnic background (and this goes for ALL Churches, those here in America too!).
Completely agreed, but isn't the Arab complaint that the upper echelon of leadership is seemingly always chosen based on a particular ethnic background, which happens to be Greek?
Absolutely.  I was speaking generally.  I guess I should have been more specific in saying the Church leadership needs to be mindful of it as well.

Quote
Quote
Sure, it's great if we can find someone of the same cultural background, but this is not a reason to call for the removal of a bishop!
Agreed again, and if that is the sole reason for calling for the bishop's removal, then I think it's a bit weak.  At the same time, I think it's extremely important to retain and evangelize these areas, and if only appointing Greeks presents a barrier to this, that should be considered. 

While I don't want to branch off into this topic, it has been argued that an overly 'Greek' hierarchy and focus within the Church of this area alienated much of the population and contributed to the early and thorough success of Islamic conversion.

An excellent point, and not at all off topic, I don't think. 
Are they doing their services in Greek?

We have to find the balance in being sensitive to the cultural feelings of the people while at the same time teaching them to look beyond race and culture. 
Logged

Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
Matthew 18:5
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2011, 04:40:21 PM »

Are they doing their services in Greek?
I'm honestly not sure how prevalent Greek services are in the Arab speaking jurisdictions.  I think most are done in Arabic, it's just the hierarch/Greek control that is the issue. 

A little help on this, Isa?

Quote
We have to find the balance in being sensitive to the cultural feelings of the people while at the same time teaching them to look beyond race and culture.

Exactly!
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,077


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2011, 05:05:56 PM »

You have misunderstood everything. Racism is a thing that only white Western European/American and Protestant/Catholic men can do. More colorful people with exotic religions just express their cultural richness.

Not to be rude, but this is a completely ridiculous statement which totally ignores reality.  But that's a conversation for another thread.

Christ is Risen!  I think he was being facetious.  (Or, at least, I hope.)
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,822



« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2011, 05:19:51 PM »

al-masiiH qaam!
Sounds pretty racist.
Foreign shepherds fleecing the native flock. It is.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,066



« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2011, 05:24:35 PM »

Rationally implement reforms, yes; increasing the number of Arab hierarchs, yes.  But seeking the replacement of His Beatitude the Patriarch, no, heck no.

I suspect this protest is inspired by anti-Jewish-anti-recognition of the State of Israel elements, which would discredit it, therefore.  How reasonably could the Patriarchate rescind the property lease for the Kinesset?

The Church of Greece has been the primary financial supporter of the Jerusalem Patriarchate; I'm not aware if that has changed.
Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,822



« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2011, 05:27:01 PM »

almasiiH qaam!
What we should be seeking in Church leaders is holiness and an ability to shepherd their flock, not the right color or ethnic background (and this goes for ALL Churches, those here in America too!).
Completely agreed, but isn't the Arab complaint that the upper echelon of leadership is seemingly always chosen based on a particular ethnic background, which happens to be Greek?
not only Greek, but foreign Greek.  There is no Greek population in Palestine (unlike in Egypt, where the situation is similar but radically different).  Yet, the Patriarchate is "held in trust for the Greek nation."

Quote
Sure, it's great if we can find someone of the same cultural background, but this is not a reason to call for the removal of a bishop!
Agreed again, and if that is the sole reason for calling for the bishop's removal, then I think it's a bit weak.  At the same time, I think it's extremely important to retain and evangelize these areas, and if only appointing Greeks presents a barrier to this, that should be considered. 

While I don't want to branch off into this topic, it has been argued that an overly 'Greek' hierarchy and focus within the Church of this area alienated much of the population and contributed to the early and thorough success of Islamic conversion.
Islamic conversion?  They mostly convert to the Protestants and the Latin Patriarchate (both heavily made up of Orthodox converts, because of the neglect of the Patriarchate).

This is relatively recent: the Greek grip on the patriarchate as now dates only from the Ottoman conquest in 1517, as the Sultan consecrated the Phanariots as the hierarchy of the empire.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,822



« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2011, 05:31:13 PM »

almasiiH qaam!
Are they doing their services in Greek?
I'm honestly not sure how prevalent Greek services are in the Arab speaking jurisdictions.  I think most are done in Arabic, it's just the hierarch/Greek control that is the issue. 

A little help on this, Isa?
In Jordan mostly in Arabic.  I never went to a service outside the major Churches in Palestine (which are entirely in Greek: the Arabs who now have filled the vaccuum when Greek boys stopped coming to Palestine are taught Greek.  And not even liturgical Greek, but modern Demotic.  At least that was the situation in the 90's when I was last there), so I can't say first hand on that, but I've heard they celebrate in Arabic.

Quote
We have to find the balance in being sensitive to the cultural feelings of the people while at the same time teaching them to look beyond race and culture.

Exactly!
amiin!
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,822



« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2011, 05:35:56 PM »

Christos anesti!
Rationally implement reforms, yes; increasing the number of Arab hierarchs, yes.  But seeking the replacement of His Beatitude the Patriarch, no, heck no.
Abolish the Order of the Tomb worshippers in favor of a real Holy Synod and a real Patriarchate.  I don't think there is much reason to depose the Patriarch if he moved in this direction.

I suspect this protest is inspired by anti-Jewish-anti-recognition of the State of Israel elements, which would discredit it, therefore.  How reasonably could the Patriarchate rescind the property lease for the Kinesset?
Yeah, it's not like the Zionists aren't known for taking what they want.  They would just take the land outright.

The Church of Greece has been the primary financial supporter of the Jerusalem Patriarchate; I'm not aware if that has changed.
Pilgrim$$$$$
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Shlomlokh
主哀れめよ!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian
Posts: 1,254



« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2011, 05:40:26 PM »

Rationally implement reforms, yes; increasing the number of Arab hierarchs, yes.  But seeking the replacement of His Beatitude the Patriarch, no, heck no.

I suspect this protest is inspired by anti-Jewish-anti-recognition of the State of Israel elements, which would discredit it, therefore.  How reasonably could the Patriarchate rescind the property lease for the Kinesset?

The Church of Greece has been the primary financial supporter of the Jerusalem Patriarchate; I'm not aware if that has changed.
Does he have to be Arab? Why can't he just be a native? Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew
Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2011, 06:23:09 PM »

not only Greek, but foreign Greek.  There is no Greek population in Palestine (unlike in Egypt, where the situation is similar but radically different).  Yet, the Patriarchate is "held in trust for the Greek nation."
Right, I should have specified that.  This isn't just choosing from a Greek minority but picking foreigners to run their jurisdiction.

While I don't want to branch off into this topic, it has been argued that an overly 'Greek' hierarchy and focus within the Church of this area alienated much of the population and contributed to the early and thorough success of Islamic conversion.
Quote
Islamic conversion?  They mostly convert to the Protestants and the Latin Patriarchate (both heavily made up of Orthodox converts, because of the neglect of the Patriarchate).

This is relatively recent: the Greek grip on the patriarchate as now dates only from the Ottoman conquest in 1517, as the Sultan consecrated the Phanariots as the hierarchy of the empire.

I was referring to more generally defined "Hellenism", rather than a strictly speaking Greek control, and also to that region's overwhelming conversion to Islam in the 7th century, rather than current conversion to other sects of Christianity.
 
You're right though; that's a very sad state of affairs as well (the conversion to Protestantism and the Latin Patriarchate).
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,822



« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2011, 07:01:34 PM »

Christ is risen!
I was referring to more generally defined "Hellenism", rather than a strictly speaking Greek control, and also to that region's overwhelming conversion to Islam in the 7th century, rather than current conversion to other sects of Christianity.
 
You're right though; that's a very sad state of affairs as well (the conversion to Protestantism and the Latin Patriarchate).

Actually, the shift to Islam didn't really occur before the Seljuks invasion and the Crusaders.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2011, 07:23:25 PM »

Actually, the shift to Islam didn't really occur before the Seljuks invasion and the Crusaders.

These were tremendously important, but some would argue the shift in Palestine and Greater Syria occurred earlier and the revulsion to Greek influence was clear, evidenced by the massacre of 614.

Regardless, I think we'll agree that people feeling culturally isolated from the leadership of their church is not a good thing, as in this case.
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,824



« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2011, 08:13:23 PM »

Rationally implement reforms, yes; increasing the number of Arab hierarchs, yes.  But seeking the replacement of His Beatitude the Patriarch, no, heck no.

I suspect this protest is inspired by anti-Jewish-anti-recognition of the State of Israel elements, which would discredit it, therefore.  How reasonably could the Patriarchate rescind the property lease for the Kinesset?

The Church of Greece has been the primary financial supporter of the Jerusalem Patriarchate; I'm not aware if that has changed.
Does he have to be Arab? Why can't he just be a native? Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew

I don't want to get into politics. However, if we are talking about using the vernacular, the folks in Palestine and Israel speak Arabic and Hebrew, followed, at least amongst most of the recent converts to Orthodoxy, Russian. There are very few Greek speakers in the Patriarchate (I ask Isa to correct me if I am wrong here). That said, I will endorse the general idea that the ethnicity of the hierarch should not be important--as long as he does not have an ethnic agenda that conflicts with the ethnic identity of his flock.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,824



« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2011, 08:16:49 PM »

Actually, the shift to Islam didn't really occur before the Seljuks invasion and the Crusaders.

These were tremendously important, but some would argue the shift in Palestine and Greater Syria occurred earlier and the revulsion to Greek influence was clear, evidenced by the massacre of 614.

Regardless, I think we'll agree that people feeling culturally isolated from the leadership of their church is not a good thing, as in this case.

If we are talking about the seventh century, my impression is that it was anti-imperial feelings, rather than anti-Greek feelings, that helped fuel the Muslim expansion.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Alcuin
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 122


« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2011, 08:18:06 PM »

Would people at the time have really distinguished between anti-Imperial and anti-Greek?
Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,381



WWW
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2011, 08:36:46 PM »

Would people at the time have really distinguished between anti-Imperial and anti-Greek?
Sure, just like Americans in the American revolution could distinguish between anti-British and anti-empire. But still, I can see easily a view that it's "the Greeks" rather than just "the empire".

But to get back to the OP, I have mixed feelings. Alot of people feel the Greek church leadership isn't doing enough to take care of people's spiritual needs. But I wonder if that would really change on the leadership's part. I mean, do you feel that the Antiochian churchs leadership is many times better?

And plus, there is a tradition of having Greeks. And it makes the Church more neutral on nationalist questions, which is important considering the Israelis are half and the Palestinians are about half, although a big number of them are living abroad as refugees...

So like I said, I have mixed feelings- I can see a positive and a negative.
Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,891



« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2011, 09:10:29 PM »

Maybe the Arabs can't handle the leadership role without getting all theologically wishy-washy and friendly with the other confessions. The Antiochian Patriarchate restored communion with the Latins in the 18th century, and a Greek had to be brought in to hold to the traditional Orthodox ecclesiology and theology. Once the ethnic Arabs regained control in the 20th century Antiochian Patriarchate, they went back into communion with the Melkite Greek Catholics from before.

I assume perhaps the Greeks foresee the same results in handing over the Jerusalem Patriarchate. Just a bunch of smiles, hand shaking and ecumenism in the bad sense. Just look at how theologically conservative Jerusalem is today versus Antioch. I don't think it's a stretch to assume the Palestinian Arabs would be just as racist with the ethnically Jewish Orthodox Christians of the Patriarchate, especially given the ethnic tensions between the Palestinians and the Jews. As another poster said, the Greeks in many ways can function as a neutral arbitrator in the political disputes.

What matters is the faithfulness of the Patriarch to tradition and the apostolic faith, not his ethnicity. What a bunch of racist garbage.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2011, 09:13:06 PM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
Shlomlokh
主哀れめよ!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian
Posts: 1,254



« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2011, 09:13:08 PM »

Rationally implement reforms, yes; increasing the number of Arab hierarchs, yes.  But seeking the replacement of His Beatitude the Patriarch, no, heck no.

I suspect this protest is inspired by anti-Jewish-anti-recognition of the State of Israel elements, which would discredit it, therefore.  How reasonably could the Patriarchate rescind the property lease for the Kinesset?

The Church of Greece has been the primary financial supporter of the Jerusalem Patriarchate; I'm not aware if that has changed.
Does he have to be Arab? Why can't he just be a native? Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew

I don't want to get into politics. However, if we are talking about using the vernacular, the folks in Palestine and Israel speak Arabic and Hebrew, followed, at least amongst most of the recent converts to Orthodoxy, Russian. There are very few Greek speakers in the Patriarchate (I ask Isa to correct me if I am wrong here). That said, I will endorse the general idea that the ethnicity of the hierarch should not be important--as long as he does not have an ethnic agenda that conflicts with the ethnic identity of his flock.
Oh, I wasn't trying to get into politics. I was just saying that he should be a native of Palestine/Israel and it shouldn't matter what his ethnicity is. Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew
Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,824



« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2011, 09:14:03 PM »

Would people at the time have really distinguished between anti-Imperial and anti-Greek?

I think that the self-consciousness of the Eastern Empire was mainly Roman at that point--I will concede that it was inded a Geco-Roman culture. Of course, there were also the usual factors that affect the fate of empires, with two in particular being most applicable: (a) During the sixth and seventh centuries, the Empire was struck by a series of epidemics, which greatly devastated the population and contributed to a significant economic decline and a weakening of the Empire, and (b) the Roman-Persian Wars of the seventh century weakened both antagonists to a point that the Arab Muslims took advantage of the power vacuum. Of course, it did not help that the Arabs, before and after Islam, had felt ill used by the Empire. The great irony is that Arabs continued to be ill used under the Muslim Ottoman Empire.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,824



« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2011, 09:16:29 PM »

Maybe the Arabs can't handle the leadership role without getting all theologically wishy-washy and friendly with the other confessions. The Antiochian Patriarchate restored communion with the Latins in the 18th century, and a Greek had to be brought in to hold to the traditional Orthodox ecclesiology and theology. Once the ethnic Arabs regained control in the 20th century Antiochian Patriarchate, they went back into communion with the Melkite Greek Catholics from before.

I assume perhaps the Greeks foresee the same results in handing over the Jerusalem Patriarchate. Just a bunch of smiles, hand shaking and ecumenism in the bad sense. Just look at how theologically conservative Jerusalem is today versus Antioch. I don't think it's a stretch to assume the Palestinian Arabs would be just as racist with the ethnically Jewish Orthodox Christians of the Patriarchate, especially given the ethnic tensions between the Palestinians and the Jews. As another poster said, the Greeks in many ways can function as a neutral arbitrator in the political disputes.

What matters is the faithfulness of the Patriarch to tradition and the apostolic faith, not his ethnicity. What a bunch of racist garbage.

Alveus--Please brother, reconsider your intemperate attack on the Antiochian Patriarchate. We really do not need further rifts amongst us, do we?
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,822



« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2011, 09:40:03 PM »

almasiiH qaam!
Maybe the Arabs can't handle the leadership role without getting all theologically wishy-washy and friendly with the other confessions.
You mean like Patriarch St. Sophronios of Jerusalem, the sole primate not to succumb to Constantinople's Monotheletism?

The Antiochian Patriarchate restored communion with the Latins in the 18th century, and a Greek had to be brought in to hold to the traditional Orthodox ecclesiology and theology.

No, the locally elected patriarch got a pallium from Rome to evade the Ottoman bureaucracy at the Phanar, and a Phanariot was sent to reimpose Phanariot control.  Not the first time that had been done (the Serbs, Bulgarians and Romanians).  That the Melkites weren't pressured into it by the Vatican and its minions is why they are such a thorn in the Vatican's side today.

Once the ethnic Arabs regained control in the 20th century Antiochian Patriarchate, they went back into communion with the Melkite Greek Catholics from before.
Can't go back to what you haven't left: in Antioch both sides had decided a pox on both houses of Old and New Rome.

I assume perhaps the Greeks foresee the same results in handing over the Jerusalem Patriarchate. Just a bunch of smiles, hand shaking and ecumenism in the bad sense. Just look at how theologically conservative Jerusalem is today versus Antioch.
LOL.  You do know that among the better known creations of Jerusalem was Met/Abp/EP/Pope Meletius, who was elected Patriarch of Jerusalem in the 30's, but the British wouldn't let him take the position?

Other than living in the Ottoman world, Jerusalem isn't all that conservative.  And what about the Greeks handing over the Church of Greece to Greeks?

I don't think it's a stretch to assume the Palestinian Arabs would be just as racist with the ethnically Jewish Orthodox Christians of the Patriarchate, especially given the ethnic tensions between the Palestinians and the Jews.

In the Zionist State?

As another poster said, the Greeks in many ways can function as a neutral arbitrator in the political disputes.
No, acting in their parochial ethnic interests, they have shown they cannot.  Sort of the same problem with the ethnarch posing as the Ecumenical Patriarch.

What matters is the faithfulness of the Patriarch to tradition and the apostolic faith, not his ethnicity. What a bunch of racist garbage.
Maybe the Arabs can't handle the leadership role
Indeed.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
arimethea
Getting too old for this
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch
Posts: 2,968


Does anyone really care what you think?


« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2011, 10:45:19 PM »

Personally I think the best solution is to redivide Jerusalem back to Antioch and Alexandria and eliminate the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulcher. 
Logged

Joseph
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,638


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2011, 10:57:15 PM »

Maybe the Arabs can't handle the leadership role without getting all theologically wishy-washy and friendly with the other confessions. The Antiochian Patriarchate restored communion with the Latins in the 18th century, and a Greek had to be brought in to hold to the traditional Orthodox ecclesiology and theology. Once the ethnic Arabs regained control in the 20th century Antiochian Patriarchate, they went back into communion with the Melkite Greek Catholics from before.

I assume perhaps the Greeks foresee the same results in handing over the Jerusalem Patriarchate. Just a bunch of smiles, hand shaking and ecumenism in the bad sense. Just look at how theologically conservative Jerusalem is today versus Antioch. I don't think it's a stretch to assume the Palestinian Arabs would be just as racist with the ethnically Jewish Orthodox Christians of the Patriarchate, especially given the ethnic tensions between the Palestinians and the Jews. As another poster said, the Greeks in many ways can function as a neutral arbitrator in the political disputes.

What matters is the faithfulness of the Patriarch to tradition and the apostolic faith, not his ethnicity. What a bunch of racist garbage.

Wouldn't saying that Arabs seem to like to be lax on doctrine and lean towards unity with heterodox Christians be just as racist as saying Greeks seem to like to betray the property of the Church, and sell off the property to foreign heterodox peoples?
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Alveus Lacuna
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,891



« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2011, 12:39:35 AM »

Wouldn't saying that Arabs seem to like to be lax on doctrine and lean towards unity with heterodox Christians be just as racist as saying Greeks seem to like to betray the property of the Church, and sell off the property to foreign heterodox peoples?

Yes, I was making some racist generalizations about the Arabs to illustrate a point about the racism toward the Greeks in the Holy Land. These kinds of comments aren't helpful, and only serve to divide the Church. Isa is an Arab, and he obviously loathes the Greeks in Jerusalem.

So my final sentences weren't only aimed at the "Calls for Arabization", but also the ridiculousness of my own counter position, all of which highlights how preposterous the whole situation is over there.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 12:47:06 AM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,822



« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2011, 12:44:19 AM »


Christ is risen!
Wouldn't saying that Arabs seem to like to be lax on doctrine and lean towards unity with heterodox Christians be just as racist as saying Greeks seem to like to betray the property of the Church, and sell off the property to foreign heterodox peoples?

Yes, I was making some racist generalizations about the Arabs to illustrate a point about the racism toward the Greeks in the Holy Land. These kinds of comments aren't helpful, and only serve to divide the Church. Isa is an Arab, and he obviously loathes the Greeks in Jerusalem.
Let's say that's true: then why don't I loathe the Greeks in Alexandria, and why would I care who is in Constantinople?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Alveus Lacuna
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,891



« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2011, 12:48:45 AM »

Let's say that's true: then why don't I loathe the Greeks in Alexandria, and why would I care who is in Constantinople?

I'm not your psychoanalyst, so you tell me.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,822



« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2011, 01:00:58 AM »

Christ is risen!
Let's say that's true: then why don't I loathe the Greeks in Alexandria, and why would I care who is in Constantinople?

I'm not your psychoanalyst, so you tell me.
I'm not your psychoanalyst either, so you tell me.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Alveus Lacuna
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,891



« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2011, 01:38:38 AM »

Christ is risen!
Let's say that's true: then why don't I loathe the Greeks in Alexandria, and why would I care who is in Constantinople?

I'm not your psychoanalyst, so you tell me.
I'm not your psychoanalyst either, so you tell me.

I know you are, but what am I?
Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,638


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2011, 01:58:19 AM »

Wouldn't saying that Arabs seem to like to be lax on doctrine and lean towards unity with heterodox Christians be just as racist as saying Greeks seem to like to betray the property of the Church, and sell off the property to foreign heterodox peoples?

Yes, I was making some racist generalizations about the Arabs to illustrate a point about the racism toward the Greeks in the Holy Land. These kinds of comments aren't helpful, and only serve to divide the Church. Isa is an Arab, and he obviously loathes the Greeks in Jerusalem.

So my final sentences weren't only aimed at the "Calls for Arabization", but also the ridiculousness of my own counter position, all of which highlights how preposterous the whole situation is over there.
oh okay...my bad, I thought you were serious.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Gary Spedding
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Arab Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Jerusalem
Posts: 3


« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2011, 05:56:57 AM »

This topic is highly sensitive and I will happily explain it in full to anyone interested.

There is a deep and complex political problem within the Patriarchate here in the Holy Land of Palestine for one thing our Patriarchate is ranked 4th in importance among the 9 major Patriarchates of Greek Orthodoxy in the world which is a little bit insulting given that Holy Jerusalem is where it all began.

Not only this but for many centuries now the Patriarchate has discriminated against Arabs even though they make up the majority of the congregation. This means that among the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre and the Holy Synod there are very few Arabs representing the Palestinian orthodox community. We have very holy priests in areas such as Beit Jala where I live, one of our cousin's is in fact a priest here in the church of St. Mary these guys are Arab's but the majority of high ranking people in the church save His excellence Atallah Hanna are Greek's. There is in fact a rumor that the Greek Church sends its poorly performing or bad priest usually from Samos to Palestine.

However these internal church matters and internal politics are only part of the problem. Of course the Arabisation of the church is desired given that our services are in Arabic, we read the Bible in Arabic and the very essence of our culture is Christian Arabic. However there is a wider political spectrum that needs factoring in regarding the Israel/Palestine conflict in that the one thing Israel still cannot do is steal land from the Christian church and it just so happens the biggest land owner in the entire holy land, Israel/Palestine whatever you want to call it is the Holy Patriarchate of Jerusalem. We orthodox own substantial amounts of land in East Jerusalem, West Jerusalem, Galilea, Tiberias, Bethlehem and pretty much all over and it is in rather large chunks. The Israeli parlaiment and the presidents house are build on Church owned land.

So Israel puts pressure on the Church to lease or sell the land to the Israeli sate as part of the continued colonisation and ethnic cleansing of Palestine and the judaisation of 'Eretz Israel'. The Patriarchate being mostly Greek have no real bonds with the local palestinian congregation and yet they must be careful given the majority of the orthodox church is made up of Arab Christians. The old Patriarch sold or is rumored to have sold land to Israel including parts of the Old city of Jerusalem which is a major major thing in this day and age on top of that arabs live or lease the land from the church and could get evicted from their ancient homes....

So there is conflict in that also....

Basically the Patriarchate is in a sorry state of affairs with much of the congregation while still being faithful to the church, orthodoxy and the Holy Patriarchate of Jerusalem the most Holy of all orthodox centres in the world is in turmoil given the corruption of individual church leaders and the sale of land.

The land and bank accounts of the patriarchate are frozen by Israel and Israel regularly persecutes the church. Atallah Hannah had his travel documents confiscated and threats made etc.

It is a very tough time.

I am happy to answer any questions about orthodoxy in the Holy Land our grandmother is a very old and religious woman and is teaching me everything she knows!
Logged
GreekChef
Prez
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America: Metropolis of Atlanta
Posts: 884



« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2011, 09:37:29 AM »

This topic is highly sensitive and I will happily explain it in full to anyone interested.

There is a deep and complex political problem within the Patriarchate here in the Holy Land of Palestine for one thing our Patriarchate is ranked 4th in importance among the 9 major Patriarchates of Greek Orthodoxy in the world which is a little bit insulting given that Holy Jerusalem is where it all began.

Not only this but for many centuries now the Patriarchate has discriminated against Arabs even though they make up the majority of the congregation. This means that among the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre and the Holy Synod there are very few Arabs representing the Palestinian orthodox community. We have very holy priests in areas such as Beit Jala where I live, one of our cousin's is in fact a priest here in the church of St. Mary these guys are Arab's but the majority of high ranking people in the church save His excellence Atallah Hanna are Greek's. There is in fact a rumor that the Greek Church sends its poorly performing or bad priest usually from Samos to Palestine.

However these internal church matters and internal politics are only part of the problem. Of course the Arabisation of the church is desired given that our services are in Arabic, we read the Bible in Arabic and the very essence of our culture is Christian Arabic. However there is a wider political spectrum that needs factoring in regarding the Israel/Palestine conflict in that the one thing Israel still cannot do is steal land from the Christian church and it just so happens the biggest land owner in the entire holy land, Israel/Palestine whatever you want to call it is the Holy Patriarchate of Jerusalem. We orthodox own substantial amounts of land in East Jerusalem, West Jerusalem, Galilea, Tiberias, Bethlehem and pretty much all over and it is in rather large chunks. The Israeli parlaiment and the presidents house are build on Church owned land.

So Israel puts pressure on the Church to lease or sell the land to the Israeli sate as part of the continued colonisation and ethnic cleansing of Palestine and the judaisation of 'Eretz Israel'. The Patriarchate being mostly Greek have no real bonds with the local palestinian congregation and yet they must be careful given the majority of the orthodox church is made up of Arab Christians. The old Patriarch sold or is rumored to have sold land to Israel including parts of the Old city of Jerusalem which is a major major thing in this day and age on top of that arabs live or lease the land from the church and could get evicted from their ancient homes....

So there is conflict in that also....

Basically the Patriarchate is in a sorry state of affairs with much of the congregation while still being faithful to the church, orthodoxy and the Holy Patriarchate of Jerusalem the most Holy of all orthodox centres in the world is in turmoil given the corruption of individual church leaders and the sale of land.

The land and bank accounts of the patriarchate are frozen by Israel and Israel regularly persecutes the church. Atallah Hannah had his travel documents confiscated and threats made etc.

It is a very tough time.

I am happy to answer any questions about orthodoxy in the Holy Land our grandmother is a very old and religious woman and is teaching me everything she knows!


Welcome to the forum, Gary!  almasiiH qaam!
Thank you so much for your first hand insights.  Would you mind talking a little more about how the Arabs in the congregation are discriminated against by the Greek hierarchy?  I know very little about this situation other than what I read on this forum and in articles.  I hear very few details about what is actually happening in the parishes.
Thanks!

In our Risen Lord,
Presbytera Mari
Logged

Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
Matthew 18:5
kijabeboy03
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 824

"The glory of God is in man fully alive."


« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2011, 01:01:16 PM »

Perhaps a better place to start than demanding the removal of Patriarch Theophilus (who was also responsible for the sacrifice of the North American parishes to Constantinople, right?) would be to end the involvement of three non-Orthodox governments in the confirmation of new patriarchs :-).
Logged

"This is the Apostolic Faith, the Orthodox Faith, and the Faith of the Fathers. Having this wonderful treasure, let us preserve it, let us keep it, and let us also use it in such a way that this treasure becomes the victory of Christ in us and in His Church." ~ St. Severus of Antioch ~
kijabeboy03
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 824

"The glory of God is in man fully alive."


« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2011, 01:01:43 PM »

Or four given that the Church of Greece's finances are provided by the Greek government...
Logged

"This is the Apostolic Faith, the Orthodox Faith, and the Faith of the Fathers. Having this wonderful treasure, let us preserve it, let us keep it, and let us also use it in such a way that this treasure becomes the victory of Christ in us and in His Church." ~ St. Severus of Antioch ~
Tags: Jerusalem 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.169 seconds with 67 queries.