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Author Topic: Coptic sign of the Cross  (Read 11081 times) Average Rating: 0
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simplygermain
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« Reply #45 on: January 02, 2013, 08:30:59 PM »

Our Ethiopian parishioners cross themselves left to right with the liturgical way. Our Coptic parishioners... I forget how they do it.
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« Reply #46 on: January 02, 2013, 08:32:13 PM »

The "two natures" way I was describing is in the use of the Eastern Orthodox tradition of crossing oneself  with thumb, index and middle finger coming to point while the last two are tucked under...Trinity plus two natures. police

Here is a picture of what he's describing:
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 08:33:58 PM by zekarja » Logged

simplygermain
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« Reply #47 on: January 02, 2013, 08:36:21 PM »

What I find funny is when one group says theirs is the oldest. The earliest writings I've seen describe only the thumb being used, specifically on the forehead. Only Latins and some WRO do it this way ans selectively at the reading of the Holy Gospel. Who knows when the ICXC became the liturgical use.
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« Reply #48 on: January 02, 2013, 08:41:14 PM »

What I find funny is when one group says theirs is the oldest. The earliest writings I've seen describe only the thumb being used, specifically on the forehead. Only Latins and some WRO do it this way ans selectively at the reading of the Holy Gospel. Who knows when the ICXC became the liturgical use.


I agree. I suppose that is where anointing the forehead with the sign of the Cross came from.
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« Reply #49 on: January 03, 2013, 09:22:44 AM »

Sorry, simplygermain. I misread your post.  I meant in regards to this when I wrote about confusion over "2 natures" among modern  Coptic "Iconographers".

Ancient:




Modern:

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simplygermain
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« Reply #50 on: January 04, 2013, 02:57:35 AM »

No harm done. Smiley
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« Reply #51 on: January 05, 2013, 12:43:58 AM »

First two fingers and thumb are joined... Making the sign of the Trinity.
The last two fingers tucked down to show the two natures of Christ.
This is the common blessing of course right to left.

The priest uses the one shown in the icon above in the DL when blessing the laity to reveal the ICXC which one can see three dimensionally in the hand of the one giving the blessing.





So the pinky represents the I, the index and middle finger represents the X, and the thumb and ring finger represents the C twice?

The index finger is I. The middle finger is C. The ring finger and the thumb are crossed to make X. The pinky finger is C.


Thank you :-)
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« Reply #52 on: January 06, 2013, 03:08:06 PM »

First two fingers and thumb are joined... Making the sign of the Trinity.
The last two fingers tucked down to show the two natures of Christ.
This is the common blessing of course right to left.

The priest uses the one shown in the icon above in the DL when blessing the laity to reveal the ICXC which one can see three dimensionally in the hand of the one giving the blessing.





So the pinky represents the I, the index and middle finger represents the X, and the thumb and ring finger represents the C twice?

The index finger is I. The middle finger is C. The ring finger and the thumb are crossed to make X. The pinky finger is C.


Thank you :-)

You're welcome! Smiley
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« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2013, 04:54:30 PM »

The Catholic Encyclopedia's article on the sign of the cross implies that, for Romans at least (both east and west), right-to-left was the original form (along with two fingers (so the Old Believers were right all along!)).

Quote
At this period [i.e. the early Middle Ages] the manner of making it in the West seems to have been identical with that followed at present in the East, i.e. only three fingers were used, and the hand traveled from the right shoulder to the left. The point, it must be confessed, is not entirely clear and Thalhofer (Liturgik, I, 633) inclines to the opinion that in the passages of Belethus (xxxix), Sicardus (III, iv), Innocent III (De myst. Alt., II, xlvi), and Durandus (V, ii, 13), which are usually appealed to in proof of this, these authors have in mind the small cross made upon the forehead or external objects, in which the hand moves naturally from right to left, and not the big cross made from shoulder to shoulder. Still, a rubric in a manuscript copy of the York Missal clearly requires the priest when signing himself with the paten to touch the left shoulder after the right. Moreover it is at least clear from many pictures and sculptures that in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries the Greek practice of extending only three fingers was adhered to by many Latin Christians.

Quomodo signum crucis sit exprimendum

Est autem signum crucis tribus digitis exprimendum, quia sub invocatione Trinitatis imprimitur, de qua dicit propheta: Quis appendit tribus digitis molem terrae? ita quod a superiori descendat in inferius, et a dextra transeat ad sinistram, quia Christus de coelo descendit in terram, et a Judaeis transivit ad gentes. Quidam tamen signum crucis a sinistra producunt in dextram; quia de miseria transire debemus ad gloriam, sicut et Christus transivit de morte ad vitam, et de inferno ad paradisum, praesertim ut seipsos et alios uno eodemque pariter modo consignent. Constat autem quod cum super alios signum crucis imprimimus, ipsos a sinistris consignamus in dextram. Verum si diligenter attendas, etiam super alios signum crucis a dextra producimus in sinistram, quia non consignamus eos quasi vertentes dorsum, sed quasi faciem praesentantes.


The sign of the Cross should be expressed with three fingers, because it is impressed under the invocation of the Trinity, of Whom the Prophet says: “Who hath poised with three fingers the bulk of the earth?” (Is. 40, 10), so that one descends from above underneath, and from the right passes to the left, because Christ descended from heaven to earth, and he passed from the Jews to the Gentiles. Nevertheless some make the sign of the cross from the left to the right, because we must pass from misery to glory, just as Christ passed from death unto life, and from hell to paradise, especially so that they may sign themselves and others simultaneously in one and the same way. It is true that, when we make the sign of the cross over others, we sign ourselves from the left to the right. But if you pay attention carefully, we also make the sign of the cross from right to left on others, because we do not sign them as if they were turning their backs (on us), but as they face us.

Pope Innocent III (1160 –1216), De sacro altari mysterio, II, 45 (PL 217, 825D)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 05:11:16 PM by Romaios » Logged
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