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Author Topic: Serbian Orthodox priest appointed as a Hegumen in the Coptic Church  (Read 8173 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 30, 2011, 06:14:42 AM »

Father Moses Curley, a Serbian Orthodox priest was elevated to a Hegumen in the Coptic Orthodox Church in Australia. I couldn't find more information about this, does anyone know Father Moses' story in details?

What interests me, is that he retained his priesthood and was elevated to the rank of hegumenos.

Story here: http://bishopsuriel.blogspot.com/2011/05/appointment-of-very-reverend-fr-moses.html

photos here: https://picasaweb.google.com/116103614931296612490/AppointFrMosesCurley?authkey=Gv1sRgCIvm2dPr87rpYQ#


Sheh en rompi Father Moses!
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« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2011, 07:12:20 AM »

I know a Serbian Orthodox priest in Victoria - Fr. Patrick Curley.  Is this him?
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« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2011, 09:00:31 AM »

Interesting signal from the real world. The good father seems to have been simply translated without any kind of reordination, confession etc. This is the practical reality of  EO-OO relations. We may disagree on many points on an internet forum but this is how the things actually work out in the real world.  Smiley
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« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2011, 11:02:45 AM »

This has always been the way. The canons established by St Timothy Aelurus and followed by all the fathers that came after him, including St Severus, instruct us to receive those coming from Chalcedonianism in their orders and without rebaptism.

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« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2011, 12:00:46 PM »

Has the Serbian Church responded in any way?
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« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2011, 12:51:58 PM »

We may care about orthodoxy on an internet forum but this is how ecumenism actually works out in the real world.

I fixed that for you.
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« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2011, 01:03:19 PM »

Asterikos, no, you are wrong. You need to read some more church history. What has happened is what has always happened.
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« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2011, 01:10:15 PM »

Asterikos, no, you are wrong. You need to read some more church history. What has happened is what has always happened.

While you overstate your case (e.g. using words like "always" implies something that isn't so), nonetheless, your main point does not conflict with what I wrote.
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« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2011, 01:14:54 PM »

Cool it, Asteriktos.  If you want to start another thread elsewhere about ecumenism, or whatever, please feel free to do so.  I would like, however, for this thread to remain on topic and not get polemical.  Thanks.
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« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2011, 01:15:10 PM »

Then the Church has always endorsed 'ecumenism'.

I hardly overstate my case. Modern 'orthodox' anti-ecumenism is an un-Orthodox as modern protestant ecumenism.

On all of the occasions when union took place, however briefly, between Orthodox and Byzantines there was never reordination. When the Georgian Church decided to become Byzantine there were no reordinations. Even in the 1850s with the planned union of the Greek Church with the Orthodox in Alexandria there was no suggestion of reordinations.

Whenever the fathers of the Orthodox churches considered what to do with Byzantines who wished to be reconciled with the Orthodox Church they never considered that reordination was necessary, even during periods of persecution by the Byzantine state.

The reception of this Serbian priest is entirely consistent with the settled position of the Orthodox Church sinec Chalcedon. Indeed when the British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate received an Antiochian priest it was with a canonical release by his bishop and without reordination.
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« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2011, 01:40:41 PM »

I think Asteriktos may be referring to the selection of someone from outside your own Church (the one you say is ONE, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic) to be the equivalent of an Archpriest, rather than choosing one of your priests, and/or the fact that a Serbian Orthodox priest became a Coptic Orthodox Hegumen.  This given that the official position of the EO communion is that you guys are schismatics (and this is in no way meant to be derogatory, and it doesn't mean I think you are wrong on any matter of theology, just that you separated from the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church - keeping in mind that the Church, being the Body of Christ, can never be divided unless God gets an amputation).
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« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2011, 01:45:06 PM »

Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2011, 01:45:12 PM »

We may care about orthodoxy on an internet forum but this is how ecumenism actually works out in the real world.

I fixed that for you.

Grin

A good point. Reality tends to be somewhat different from theoretical ideals.
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« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2011, 01:50:16 PM »

I am so tempted to split off some of these posts and dump them in the "Let's give Salpy a hard time" thread down in the private forum.  (Yes, there is a thread down there with that name.)

Let's drop the tangent.
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« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2011, 04:15:23 PM »

I am so tempted to split off some of these posts and dump them in the "Let's give Salpy a hard time" thread down in the private forum.  (Yes, there is a thread down there with that name.)

Let's drop the tangent.


May I ask which post, because I think mine directly relates to the thread, but if I am in violation of some rule or request of the moderators, I would like to know so that I can apologize for violating the rule/request and watch my behavior in the future.
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« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2011, 04:31:22 PM »

This is so strange.  While the Coptic Church chrismates EO's into the Church, what did they do with the priest?  Did they chrismate him also, or are Australian Coptic practices different from other places?
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« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2011, 04:33:30 PM »

The priest was advanced one rank in the church, so he was made a hegoumen.

This is the practice used when the BOC received an Antiochian priest.
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« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2011, 04:54:30 PM »

I am so tempted to split off some of these posts and dump them in the "Let's give Salpy a hard time" thread down in the private forum.  (Yes, there is a thread down there with that name.)

Let's drop the tangent.


May I ask which post, because I think mine directly relates to the thread, but if I am in violation of some rule or request of the moderators, I would like to know so that I can apologize for violating the rule/request and watch my behavior in the future.

Don't worry. You're not the one I'm unhappy with.  I just don't want this thread to go down the same old road we've been down before where EO's come here to inform us that we are not the True Church.  I don't want this thread to degenerate in to a discussion over how can something like this happen when the OO's are a bunch of schismatic, heretical, whatever-the-EO's-want-to-call-us.  I'm getting sick of our threads here getting hijacked by EO's with a bad attitude and I'm trying to prevent that from happening here.

I was up past midnight last night dealing with some very badly behaved EO's who were engaging in some very juvenile activities in a couple of the other sections (not here.)  I'm not in the mood today to be dealing with more bad behavior.

Again, this is not directed toward you.  I would appreciate it, however, if you refrained from feeding any tangents that seem to be going in the direction I indicated above.
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« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2011, 04:58:04 PM »

The priest was advanced one rank in the church, so he was made a hegoumen.

This is the practice used when the BOC received an Antiochian priest.

Does this mean that the Coptic Church will end her practices of chrismating EO's into the church?
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« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2011, 05:17:27 PM »

Chrismation of EO's is a new practice, it is not the policy adopted by St Timothy Aelurus, or St Philoxenus, or St Severus.

At a later medieval date the candidate was sealed with the sign of the cross by the UNOPENED chrism bottle.

Later still it would seem that some started using the chrism. This should not be understood as a rechrismation, but is a similar rite to that used for a person who has wandered from the church and is being reconciled.

From our point of view we are not making Byzantines into Christians, but are reconciling them.

St Severus says, for instance,

About those who have erred and fallen away to heretical communion, and have repented and wish to come back to the
truth by the path of legal penitence…Whereas some, as I learn, of those who are said to have been re-ordained, a thing horrible
even to hear.


And he refers to the condemnation of one who did chrismate those coming from the Chalcedonians.

For you teach those who stand to keep the orthodox faith, and to practise a devout and just life: while to those who have been
led away to error you teach the way of repentance by giving them forgiveness canonical and legal… Whence also a certain
Theodotus, one of the bishops of Palestine, because he presumed to anoint certain persons, was repudiated and expelled, both by Timothy archbishop of the city of the Alexandrines and by all who shared his opinions.


A text for the reconciling of Byzantines and others to the Orthodox Church dated 1854 has the following requirements.

i. Must fast through Great Lent

ii. He should pray the prayers from the Book of Hours

iii. He must confess the creed of Nicaea without addition or omission

iv. Then he should confess faith in the unity of Christ

Then he may participate with the faithful in prayer and in the liturgy.


Rubrics in the document show that there is an absolution, taken from the Third Hour, and that while the priest prays it he holds the Gospel, the vase of Myron and his hand cross on the head of the one seeking to be received. It is clearly noted that the seal of the vase of the Myron remains sealed while the priest makes the sign of the cross three times with it.

This is consistent with the most ancient practice and does not require any anointing at all.

It should be noted that in the canons of Christodoulos (1046-1077) it is stated that if an Orthodox marries a Melkite he must insist that she only communicates with the Orthodox and will only baptise any children with the Orthodox. If those obligations are accepted then she is received into communion and the crowning rite may be performed.

Another mediaeval text says that the Byzantines are to be considered as penitents among the faithful and that if they choose to join the Orthodox they are not to be baptised.

Thus, it seems to me that the anointing with chrism is very recent, later than 1854.

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« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2011, 05:21:41 PM »

That makes sense.  And I agree.  I just hope that the practices done in elevating an EO priest into hegumen can help the Coptic bishops realize the inconsistency this is with chrismating EO lay people.
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« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2011, 05:23:05 PM »

This should not be understood as a rechrismation, but is a similar rite to that used for a person who has wandered from the church and is being reconciled.

Does this mean that from the OO perspective EOs are outside of the Church?
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« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2011, 06:03:00 PM »

I don't think that has been the view.

I think that it is a false view of history to insist that there is no division in the visible Church. Quite clearly there have been repeated instances of long lasting divisions NONE of which were ever dealt with by treating either party as not having been part of the Church.

But if a member of even my own congregation disappears for a long while, lives a life as if they were not Orthodox, and then returns, then it would be in some sense as someone returning to the community of the Church, even if they had always been members of the communion of the Church. The Roman Church is not Orthodox because it has continued to develop teachings and practices in a non-Orthodox direction. This has not been the case with Eastern Orthdoxy within the bounds of what is acceptable.

There were those who refused to accept Pelagius II in the West as Pope and entered into schism with Rome for 145 years. When they were reconciled they were accepted as being the Church. The Georgian Church was non-Chalcedonian for hundreds of years and entered into union with the Chalcedonians without anything being required of any clergy or laity. Liekwise the fleeting unions of the 5th and 6th century, and even that proposed in the 19th. 

It seems to me that the Orthodox ecclesiology as proved by real history is that visible schisms can exist because the Church is made up of humans, but that there is also an underlying unity which can be preserved even tenuously because the Church is Christ's not ours.

This is seen even in the canonical lists of which heresies and heterodoxies required baptism and which did not. Many of them did not.

The Oriental Orthodox view was that apart from Chalcedon itself there were not substantial differences in faith which meant that Chalcedonians were not Christians. I can quote from medieval Coptic sources who take this view, or medieval Syriac sources. It was understood long ago that it was possible for a Chalcedonian to have a correct faith even while having used the ambiguous and dangerous language of two natures.

Chalcedonians were considered Christian and yet not in a proper relation to the Church, or rather that their participation in the Church was imperfect but not entirely null and void. St Severus speaks of winning those who are separated, that is, schismatic. He does not, it seems to me, speak of the Chalcedonians as heretics even if there is error in their holding to Chalcedon and the Tome (from his point of view). He asks only that they anathematise error. That being so, it seems to me, he considers them as being in and of the Church but having adopted an error. This error must be repudiated but it does not seem to be such that it prevents the mysterious action of grace.

This is not an unusual view since the baptism of many groups who we would consider entirely heretical was also accepted as being of a condition that it should not be repeated. And the Chalcedonians were never considered as having any defect other than in regard to Chalcedon and the Tome.
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« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2011, 11:07:36 AM »

The Oriental Orthodox view was that apart from Chalcedon itself there were not substantial differences in faith which meant that Chalcedonians were not Christians. I can quote from medieval Coptic sources who take this view, or medieval Syriac sources. It was understood long ago that it was possible for a Chalcedonian to have a correct faith even while having used the ambiguous and dangerous language of two natures.

Chalcedonians were considered Christian and yet not in a proper relation to the Church, or rather that their participation in the Church was imperfect but not entirely null and void. St Severus speaks of winning those who are separated, that is, schismatic. He does not, it seems to me, speak of the Chalcedonians as heretics even if there is error in their holding to Chalcedon and the Tome (from his point of view). He asks only that they anathematise error. That being so, it seems to me, he considers them as being in and of the Church but having adopted an error. This error must be repudiated but it does not seem to be such that it prevents the mysterious action of grace.

This is not an unusual view since the baptism of many groups who we would consider entirely heretical was also accepted as being of a condition that it should not be repeated. And the Chalcedonians were never considered as having any defect other than in regard to Chalcedon and the Tome.

Much of this seems, to me, to be similar with how the Eastern Orthodox have dealt with Oriental Orthodox coming in. From what I've read, it appears there is a sense that, historically amongst OOs, there have been times when their confession of the faith has been Orthodox, and times when it has been less so. There appears, from the historic EO view of the OO, to have been a flux. Together with the ecclesiastical and political issues of the times, this has affected how OOs were received. But the EO have had less historical consistency with how heterodox were received.
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« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2011, 11:12:19 AM »

Well of course there has been no change in what OO believe and our faith has always been entirely Orthodox.
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« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2011, 11:57:12 AM »

Does anyone know why Fr. Moses Curley converted/switched jurisdictions?
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« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2011, 12:27:30 PM »

Oh dear Lord!
I didn't expect this post to generate this type of response. I just found it interesting, as I mistakenly thought that the Coptic Church re(baptizes) all who were baptized outside Her.

Thanks father Peter for giving such thorough historical insight, however, ISTM that the sayings basically deal with the ones who were baptized Orientals and went astray afterwards, and in this case of course there is no place for re-baptism, as the first one is still valid. but maybe I'm wrong again. But thanks father Peter again.

I'm still interested in knowing more about Father Moses' background, if anyone can provide more details, thanks. 
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« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2011, 12:50:44 PM »

Well of course there has been no change in what OO believe and our faith has always been entirely Orthodox.

I was just stating my impression, from history, from the EO POV. It could be wrong, but it just seemed to me that, from the EO point of view, there have been periods when OO language was more acceptable. That's all.
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« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2011, 01:02:06 PM »

I don't see that our language has ever changed though. Speaking from within the OO tradition.
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« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2011, 02:28:10 PM »

Christ is Risen!

Fr. Peter looking through the pictures of the reception I was wondering is it OO practice for a priest to wear a pectoral cross?
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« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2011, 02:31:11 PM »

Yes, I have an Ethiopian pectoral cross. Many Coptic priests wear a leather work pectoral cross.
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« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2011, 02:34:22 PM »

Thank you Father
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« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2011, 12:16:09 PM »

Chrismation of EO's is a new practice, it is not the policy adopted by St Timothy Aelurus, or St Philoxenus, or St Severus.

At a later medieval date the candidate was sealed with the sign of the cross by the UNOPENED chrism bottle.

Later still it would seem that some started using the chrism. This should not be understood as a rechrismation, but is a similar rite to that used for a person who has wandered from the church and is being reconciled.

From our point of view we are not making Byzantines into Christians, but are reconciling them.

St Severus says, for instance,

About those who have erred and fallen away to heretical communion, and have repented and wish to come back to the
truth by the path of legal penitence…Whereas some, as I learn, of those who are said to have been re-ordained, a thing horrible
even to hear.


And he refers to the condemnation of one who did chrismate those coming from the Chalcedonians.

For you teach those who stand to keep the orthodox faith, and to practise a devout and just life: while to those who have been
led away to error you teach the way of repentance by giving them forgiveness canonical and legal… Whence also a certain
Theodotus, one of the bishops of Palestine, because he presumed to anoint certain persons, was repudiated and expelled, both by Timothy archbishop of the city of the Alexandrines and by all who shared his opinions.


A text for the reconciling of Byzantines and others to the Orthodox Church dated 1854 has the following requirements.

i. Must fast through Great Lent

ii. He should pray the prayers from the Book of Hours

iii. He must confess the creed of Nicaea without addition or omission

iv. Then he should confess faith in the unity of Christ

Then he may participate with the faithful in prayer and in the liturgy.


Rubrics in the document show that there is an absolution, taken from the Third Hour, and that while the priest prays it he holds the Gospel, the vase of Myron and his hand cross on the head of the one seeking to be received. It is clearly noted that the seal of the vase of the Myron remains sealed while the priest makes the sign of the cross three times with it.

This is consistent with the most ancient practice and does not require any anointing at all.

It should be noted that in the canons of Christodoulos (1046-1077) it is stated that if an Orthodox marries a Melkite he must insist that she only communicates with the Orthodox and will only baptise any children with the Orthodox. If those obligations are accepted then she is received into communion and the crowning rite may be performed.

Another mediaeval text says that the Byzantines are to be considered as penitents among the faithful and that if they choose to join the Orthodox they are not to be baptised.

Thus, it seems to me that the anointing with chrism is very recent, later than 1854.

Father Peter

Dear Fr. Peter,

This research is very interesting and important. Do you have a more exhaustive paper or study on this issue will all the relevant sources you were able to find?

Apparently, Fr. Moses Curley was an Anglican convert to Orthodoxy via the Serbian Church. It seems that possibly to due to language and cultural issues he received a formal release from his bishop and then was received into the Coptic Church. My understanding is that the relationship between Copts under Bishop Surial and the Serbs under Bishop Irenei are excellent in Australia.

In Christ,
Fr. Kyrillos

p.s. I was recently invited by the local Serbian priest to attend the veneration of the Myrrh streaming Hawaii Iveron icon at his parish. He was most gracious and invited me to the front to stand with him during the Akathist. He introduced me to his congregation as a Coptic Orthodox priest and it was a most blessed occasion.  I also spent time with the ROCOR reader who is the guardian of the icon and he also was most gracious and even asked me to anoint him with oil that I had from St. Mercurios Convent in Egypt which we amazingly noticed had the exact same scent as the oil from the Iveron icon.  I will be going again to his parish in September and he is encouraging me to bring my faithful....

On the other hand, there is an Antiochian convert priest whose parish is next to a major university where we have some approx. hundred Coptic students. Some students thought to go to his weekday Bible Study and when they went the priest went off on them on how the Copts are heretics. What a wonderful way to welcome visitors to your parish (especially college youth who are already spiritually vulnerable in many ways)!

« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 12:16:36 PM by Fr.Kyrillos » Logged
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« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2011, 01:21:17 PM »

Oh dear Lord!
I didn't expect this post to generate this type of response. I just found it interesting, as I mistakenly thought that the Coptic Church re(baptizes) all who were baptized outside Her.

Thanks father Peter for giving such thorough historical insight, however, ISTM that the sayings basically deal with the ones who were baptized Orientals and went astray afterwards, and in this case of course there is no place for re-baptism, as the first one is still valid. but maybe I'm wrong again. But thanks father Peter again.

I'm still interested in knowing more about Father Moses' background, if anyone can provide more details, thanks. 
from what i have studied if one was baptized by a male priest in the name of the father, son and holy spirit(ghost) then re baptism should NOT be done in any orthodox tradition. But most protestants converting must be rebaptised for the simple fact that we don't have priests... i could be wrong of course
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« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2011, 01:41:05 PM »

Oh dear Lord!
I didn't expect this post to generate this type of response. I just found it interesting, as I mistakenly thought that the Coptic Church re(baptizes) all who were baptized outside Her.

Thanks father Peter for giving such thorough historical insight, however, ISTM that the sayings basically deal with the ones who were baptized Orientals and went astray afterwards, and in this case of course there is no place for re-baptism, as the first one is still valid. but maybe I'm wrong again. But thanks father Peter again.

I'm still interested in knowing more about Father Moses' background, if anyone can provide more details, thanks. 
My local friendly Coptic Orthodox church told me, in reply to a theoretical question, that I WOULD have to be rebaptised, admittedly with the form of baptism.
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« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2011, 02:21:06 PM »

No, these are definitely the rules that apply for someone who was baptised outside the OO communion in the Chalcedonian communion.
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« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2011, 02:22:37 PM »

No, these are definitely the rules that apply for someone who was baptised outside the OO communion in the Chalcedonian communion.
was i correct then? or was i in error?
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« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2011, 02:55:48 PM »

Lol!

The Coptic Orthodox require the baptism of all who have not been baptised in an Orthodox tradition.

About the rules for receiving those from Eastern Orthodoxy, it has always been the case that Eastern Orthodox have never been baptised and the excerpts I posted are all to do with people coming from what we call now Eastern Orthodoxy. Those who wander off and come back have a different rite of reconciliation.

Of course Protestantism was not considered in the early period. But in recent times Catholics have been required to be baptised, and Protestants, as being related to Catholics, are also baptised. In the early period Catholics would not have been baptised. Indeed I am not yet sure, but I believe this rule is relatively modern.

Father Peter
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« Reply #38 on: June 09, 2011, 03:00:19 PM »

Lol!

The Coptic Orthodox require the baptism of all who have not been baptised in an Orthodox tradition.

About the rules for receiving those from Eastern Orthodoxy, it has always been the case that Eastern Orthodox have never been baptised and the excerpts I posted are all to do with people coming from what we call now Eastern Orthodoxy. Those who wander off and come back have a different rite of reconciliation.

Of course Protestantism was not considered in the early period. But in recent times Catholics have been required to be baptised, and Protestants, as being related to Catholics, are also baptised. In the early period Catholics would not have been baptised. Indeed I am not yet sure, but I believe this rule is relatively modern.

Father Peter
okay thats what I thought lol thank you honestly being a protestant I want to be rebaptized aster reading the didache...
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« Reply #39 on: June 09, 2011, 03:06:22 PM »

Quote
But in recent times Catholics have been required to be baptised, and Protestants, as being related to Catholics, are also baptised. In the early period Catholics would not have been baptised. Indeed I am not yet sure, but I believe this rule is relatively modern.

I believe that Eastern Catholics, who are baptised by immersion, are received by chrismation. Roman Catholics who are not Baptised by immersion are Baptised (not rebaptised) according to the rites of the church.

This is not a statement that RC Baptism is invalid, but rather a choice also to not state that RC Baptism is valid, and so to perform a Baptism.

This practice is certainly debatable, as there are even examples of improper baptism being accepted and completed with Christmation in the synaxarion.

It seems very inconsistant that we (generally, popularly, not by official declaration) seem to consider Catholic orders valid... Something that wouldn't make much sense if their Baptism is invalid (how could an unbaptised person be a valid priest?)

The case of Baptising Protestants is certainly stronger. They do not have a priesthood to baptise, and have a quite different understanding of the nature of the church to which they Baptise a person. It's still debatable since even the synaxarion records at least one example of a baptism performed by a lay-woman that was accepted by God and completed by Chrismation only. Still, the different concept of church is an understandable reason to be "safe".

A few decades ago Eastern Orthodox were required to be Baptised rather than just chrismated, which is no longer the case. Clearly an area where there is struggle to figure out how to deal with the wider Christian world that the Coptic Church didn't have to deal with until recently.
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« Reply #40 on: June 09, 2011, 04:59:33 PM »

The situation a few decades ago with relation to the Eastern Orthodox was clearly non-canonical if baptisms took place.

Certainly until the 19th century no Eastern Orthodox would ever have been baptised, and in the 1850s the Greek and Coptic Patriatrchates were so close as to almost enter into union, frustrated by the murder of Pope Kyrillos.

A lot of things have happened recently that are not part of our consistent Tradition and it is good that they are being restored as they should be now.

Our Fathers would have been shocked, and even scandalised, to learn that Eastern Orthodox were ever being required to be baptised. This is against our Tradition.
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« Reply #41 on: June 09, 2011, 06:08:15 PM »

I agree with you completely... but I think it's too easy to judge with hind-site... by all accounts it seems like it was a very confusing time.

I'm told that when one of those first 3 priests ordained by H.H. Pope Kyrollos met H.H. Pope Shenouda at the airport for a first visit, he showed up wearing a Catholic pant-suit and collar... After H.H.'s reaction he never did that again. Apparently it was decided that Nativity was decided to be celebrated on Dec 25 because that was what was done here, and only after people complained was it moved back to Koiahk 28. It must have been a very confusing time for figuring out what it meant to be Orthodox in these places, what should change and what shouldn't, how to react to others, how to deal with others, so it really isn't surprising there were some mis-steps along the way. Even today it is a confusing time with mounting tension from some churches more open to culture here, who want to be more accepting of other Christian groups, and other churches pushing back against that, each sometimes going to far. That's Orthodoxy, a bunch of humans making mistakes and God somehow bringing good from it. If I have a point it's that even if a policy like this is wrong, it's usually worth accepting as an anomaly that will pass. I wasn't trying to contradict you about the EO, just to point out the inconsistency with the RC policy, and that even if it isn't perfect, these things tend to get sorted out over time and often there is no perfect answer, but God accepts the people back even if the method the church uses could be tweaked.  I've seen some people very scandalized by differences in practices between Orthodox jurisdictions on when to Baptise and when to Chrismate, with some people feeling they aren't really part of the church because what they received is different than someone else. I probably didn't help that much with my convoluted example Smiley

The EO person I'm thinking of who was baptised told the priest baptising him that it was a sin to repeat a baptism, and he wouldn't do it. The priest agreed with him, but told him that those were the orders, and he had to obey, but that the sin would be on himself and not the person being baptised, so he agreed.
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« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2011, 01:09:09 AM »

God grant Fr. Moses many years and the strength to continue his Orthodox ministry. I say continue because he was already an Orthodox Clergyman prior to his elevation as Hegumen, his appointment in the Coptic Orthodox Church is a great testament to the unity of our Churches.

God bless,
Severian
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« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2011, 11:43:35 PM »

NVM
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« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2011, 03:06:53 AM »

Greetings in the Name of Our Divine Lord Jesus Christ!

Let me illumine you, dear friends,  on a few points. My family and I were Baptised into the Holy Orthodox Church in 1993 at the Serbian Orthodox Monastery of St Sava in Elaine Victoria.  I was ordained to the Priesthood in October 1994 at the hands of Vladika Luka the then bishop of the Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Australia and New Zealand. I had served as a priest within that jurisdiction until the time of my acceptance by His Grace Bishop Suriel of the Coptic Orthodox Diocese of Melbourne and associated regions. A couple of years back I was raised to the rank of Protopresbyter by the current bishop of the Serbian Orthodox diocese of Australia and New Zealand Vladika Irinej. I was received as a priest into the rank of Hegoumenos, which is a direct equivalent of protopresbyter in the Byzantine communion, within our beloved Coptic Orthodox Diocese by HG Suriel. I have had a long relationship of fraternal love and fellowship with the Oriental Orthodox churches going back 25 years or more.  I deeply love, cherish and value the many years I spent among my beloved Serbs and look forward to many years, God willing, labouring in this part of His vineyard.

The Lord bless you all

Abouna Moses 
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