Author Topic: Is it right for the Vatican to financially support the Eastern Orthodox Church?  (Read 7793 times)

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Offline Wyatt

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I am mainly looking for answers from Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics, although anyone is welcome to weigh in on this.

I would say no, since we are the True Church founded by Jesus Christ and the other Churches are in schism, that by financially supporting them we are financially perpetuating the sin of schism and, thus, are accomplices to this sin.

Offline Alcuin

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Can you be more specific about what you mean by financial backing?

Offline Wyatt

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Sorry, I realize now that I should have provided some context. I started this thread because I thought the topic was worth exploring and this thread is in response to the following:

Yes.  And Orthodox Patriarchs gratefully accept money from the Vatican for building up parishes and seminaries.  So what do we do?....Give with the open hand and then spit in the eye and slap with the other hand?

You have gone far afield from where I began with this and added things that do not belong with my initial sorrow at your comment below so I have no more to say but to remind you of where I began.  It was gratuitous and mean spirited given the fact that the Vatican has provided funds to Orthodox jurisdictions for many years to help them overcome some of the impoverishment of the Soviet period.  You do not give and slap at the same time.  Very bad way to treat anyone:

"Too good to share the Sacraments but not too good to take our money.   ;)"

Offline elijahmaria

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I am mainly looking for answers from Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics, although anyone is welcome to weigh in on this.

I would say no, since we are the True Church founded by Jesus Christ and the other Churches are in schism, that by financially supporting them we are financially perpetuating the sin of schism and, thus, are accomplices to this sin.

Apart from the fact that Catholic Charity has a long reach in general, regardless of the religious beliefs of those in need, I would say that it is most surely appropriate for the Vatican to give charitably to those whom she counts as Sister Churches.

In fact it is in keeping with the understanding of our current pontiff that the particular Orthodox Churches are not in formal schism, meaning they are not heretical, but that they are in material schism, and that we are both wounded by the schism.

So yes.  I would say that it is vital that we help to build up Orthodoxy wherever and when ever possible.

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Is there any evidence of this? I am unaware of this.

Offline Alcuin

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I don't think I'd really have a problem with it. It engenders good will and is in the spirit of Christian charity to a sister church. Communion is the summit of unity, not the starting point. You can't get to the summit of the mountain if you aren't willing to start climbing from the valley.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2011, 02:25:39 PM by Alcuin »

Offline Wyatt

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Apart from the fact that Catholic Charity has a long reach in general, regardless of the religious beliefs of those in need, I would say that it is most surely appropriate for the Vatican to give charitably to those whom she counts as Sister Churches.
Considering them to be Sister Churches doesn't do much good when they see us as the evil step mother.

In fact it is in keeping with the understanding of our current pontiff that the particular Orthodox Churches are not in formal schism, meaning they are not heretical, but that they are in material schism, and that we are both wounded by the schism.
I think we should wait until they are in material union before we start writing checks.

So yes.  I would say that it is vital that we help to build up Orthodoxy wherever and when ever possible.
Since the fullness of orthodoxy exists only in our Church I say keep the funds here.

Offline elijahmaria

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Apart from the fact that Catholic Charity has a long reach in general, regardless of the religious beliefs of those in need, I would say that it is most surely appropriate for the Vatican to give charitably to those whom she counts as Sister Churches.
Considering them to be Sister Churches doesn't do much good when they see us as the evil step mother.

In fact it is in keeping with the understanding of our current pontiff that the particular Orthodox Churches are not in formal schism, meaning they are not heretical, but that they are in material schism, and that we are both wounded by the schism.
I think we should wait until they are in material union before we start writing checks.

So yes.  I would say that it is vital that we help to build up Orthodoxy wherever and when ever possible.
Since the fullness of orthodoxy exists only in our Church I say keep the funds here.

Much too late for that, dearheart.  You'll have to take this one up with the Vatican.

M.

Offline Wyatt

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Apart from the fact that Catholic Charity has a long reach in general, regardless of the religious beliefs of those in need, I would say that it is most surely appropriate for the Vatican to give charitably to those whom she counts as Sister Churches.
Considering them to be Sister Churches doesn't do much good when they see us as the evil step mother.

In fact it is in keeping with the understanding of our current pontiff that the particular Orthodox Churches are not in formal schism, meaning they are not heretical, but that they are in material schism, and that we are both wounded by the schism.
I think we should wait until they are in material union before we start writing checks.

So yes.  I would say that it is vital that we help to build up Orthodoxy wherever and when ever possible.
Since the fullness of orthodoxy exists only in our Church I say keep the funds here.

Much too late for that, dearheart.  You'll have to take this one up with the Vatican.

M.
I'm sure if funds are actually being handed out that the Holy Father has some rationale for it, although I am somewhat puzzled as to why we are essentially giving out money to allow Churches to remain in schism. To me, help from Rome should only come with full communion with Rome.

Offline elijahmaria

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Is there any evidence of this? I am unaware of this.

Google =Catholic Charity to Orthodox Church=  It's not exhaustive but it will let you know that I am not talking out of my hat.

Offline elijahmaria

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Apart from the fact that Catholic Charity has a long reach in general, regardless of the religious beliefs of those in need, I would say that it is most surely appropriate for the Vatican to give charitably to those whom she counts as Sister Churches.
Considering them to be Sister Churches doesn't do much good when they see us as the evil step mother.

In fact it is in keeping with the understanding of our current pontiff that the particular Orthodox Churches are not in formal schism, meaning they are not heretical, but that they are in material schism, and that we are both wounded by the schism.
I think we should wait until they are in material union before we start writing checks.

So yes.  I would say that it is vital that we help to build up Orthodoxy wherever and when ever possible.
Since the fullness of orthodoxy exists only in our Church I say keep the funds here.

Much too late for that, dearheart.  You'll have to take this one up with the Vatican.

M.
I'm sure if funds are actually being handed out that the Holy Father has some rationale for it, although I am somewhat puzzled as to why we are essentially giving out money to allow Churches to remain in schism. To me, help from Rome should only come with full communion with Rome.

Funds are there to help them to recover, maintain and grow.

Offline Wyatt

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Apart from the fact that Catholic Charity has a long reach in general, regardless of the religious beliefs of those in need, I would say that it is most surely appropriate for the Vatican to give charitably to those whom she counts as Sister Churches.
Considering them to be Sister Churches doesn't do much good when they see us as the evil step mother.

In fact it is in keeping with the understanding of our current pontiff that the particular Orthodox Churches are not in formal schism, meaning they are not heretical, but that they are in material schism, and that we are both wounded by the schism.
I think we should wait until they are in material union before we start writing checks.

So yes.  I would say that it is vital that we help to build up Orthodoxy wherever and when ever possible.
Since the fullness of orthodoxy exists only in our Church I say keep the funds here.

Much too late for that, dearheart.  You'll have to take this one up with the Vatican.

M.
I'm sure if funds are actually being handed out that the Holy Father has some rationale for it, although I am somewhat puzzled as to why we are essentially giving out money to allow Churches to remain in schism. To me, help from Rome should only come with full communion with Rome.

Funds are there to help them to recover, maintain and grow.
So at what time do we stop giving handouts and start pushing full communion, or are we just going to continue to help monetarily while leaving unity as being optional?

Offline elijahmaria

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So at what time do we stop giving handouts and start pushing full communion, or are we just going to continue to help monetarily while leaving unity as being optional?

There is no contingency clause on aid to a Sister Church.


Offline Wyatt

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So at what time do we stop giving handouts and start pushing full communion, or are we just going to continue to help monetarily while leaving unity as being optional?

There is no contingency clause on aid to a Sister Church.
Does it at all bother you to consider groups "Sister Churches" when they don't recognize us as a Church at all?

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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I am mainly looking for answers from Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics, although anyone is welcome to weigh in on this.

I would say no, since we are the True Church founded by Jesus Christ and the other Churches are in schism, that by financially supporting them we are financially perpetuating the sin of schism and, thus, are accomplices to this sin.

 I think the Pope is getting ready to become Orthodox and this is just the first step at warming everyone up for his move.  ;)
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Offline elijahmaria

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So at what time do we stop giving handouts and start pushing full communion, or are we just going to continue to help monetarily while leaving unity as being optional?

There is no contingency clause on aid to a Sister Church.
Does it at all bother you to consider groups "Sister Churches" when they don't recognize us as a Church at all?

Not at all, Wyatt.  Not even a little bit.  If we don't get on the course to resumption of communion and remain on that course with open and contrite heart,  then we will never be open to the movement of the Holy Spirit and will continue on the path of self-will and schism and that is not only a tragedy, it is a sin.

Offline Wyatt

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I am mainly looking for answers from Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics, although anyone is welcome to weigh in on this.

I would say no, since we are the True Church founded by Jesus Christ and the other Churches are in schism, that by financially supporting them we are financially perpetuating the sin of schism and, thus, are accomplices to this sin.

 I think the Pope is getting ready to become Orthodox and this is just the first step at warming everyone up for his move.  ;)
Sweet, and by that I presume you mean that you all are getting ready to recognize the orthodoxy of the See of Rome. We look forward to welcoming you home!


So at what time do we stop giving handouts and start pushing full communion, or are we just going to continue to help monetarily while leaving unity as being optional?

There is no contingency clause on aid to a Sister Church.
Does it at all bother you to consider groups "Sister Churches" when they don't recognize us as a Church at all?

Not at all, Wyatt.  Not even a little bit.  If we don't get on the course to resumption of communion and remain on that course with open and contrite heart,  then we will never be open to the movement of the Holy Spirit and will continue on the path of self-will and schism and that is not only a tragedy, it is a sin.
Well, since we are the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church we are not guilty of the sin of schism. Only those who separate themselves from us are.

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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I am mainly looking for answers from Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics, although anyone is welcome to weigh in on this.

I would say no, since we are the True Church founded by Jesus Christ and the other Churches are in schism, that by financially supporting them we are financially perpetuating the sin of schism and, thus, are accomplices to this sin.

 I think the Pope is getting ready to become Orthodox and this is just the first step at warming everyone up for his move.  ;)
Sweet, and by that I presume you mean that you all are getting ready to recognize the orthodoxy of the See of Rome. We look forward to welcoming you home!

LOL!  Why recognize orthodoxy when we have Orthodoxy?   ;)
« Last Edit: May 29, 2011, 03:07:24 PM by GabrieltheCelt »
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Offline Wyatt

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I am mainly looking for answers from Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics, although anyone is welcome to weigh in on this.

I would say no, since we are the True Church founded by Jesus Christ and the other Churches are in schism, that by financially supporting them we are financially perpetuating the sin of schism and, thus, are accomplices to this sin.

 I think the Pope is getting ready to become Orthodox and this is just the first step at warming everyone up for his move.  ;)
Sweet, and by that I presume you mean that you all are getting ready to recognize the orthodoxy of the See of Rome. We look forward to welcoming you home!

LOL!  Why recognize orthodoxy when we have Orthodoxy?   ;)
Because "orthodoxy" is right belief whereas "Orthodoxy" is the name your communion goes by.

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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I am mainly looking for answers from Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics, although anyone is welcome to weigh in on this.

I would say no, since we are the True Church founded by Jesus Christ and the other Churches are in schism, that by financially supporting them we are financially perpetuating the sin of schism and, thus, are accomplices to this sin.

 I think the Pope is getting ready to become Orthodox and this is just the first step at warming everyone up for his move.  ;)
Sweet, and by that I presume you mean that you all are getting ready to recognize the orthodoxy of the See of Rome. We look forward to welcoming you home!

LOL!  Why recognize orthodoxy when we have Orthodoxy?   ;)
Because "orthodoxy" is right belief whereas "Orthodoxy" is the name your communion goes by.
You win.  I hope you know I was just funnin' with you.  :)
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Offline mike

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Considering them to be Sister Churches doesn't do much good when they see us as the evil step mother.

Rebel sister, not mother.

Offline WetCatechumen

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So at what time do we stop giving handouts and start pushing full communion, or are we just going to continue to help monetarily while leaving unity as being optional?

There is no contingency clause on aid to a Sister Church.
Does it at all bother you to consider groups "Sister Churches" when they don't recognize us as a Church at all?

Internet Orthodox are not all Orthodox.

I know Orthodox in real life who are significantly more ecumenical than those I have spoken to online. Not that they disagree with Orthodoxy's claims to truth, but they are kinder to the Catholic Church.
"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence

Offline Wyatt

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Considering them to be Sister Churches doesn't do much good when they see us as the evil step mother.

Rebel sister, not mother.
Rebel step sister then. You definitely don't consider us blood.

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Wyatt,

You make it sound like you consider us blood. If you do then why are you so insistent on forcing purely Latin dogmas on us? Do you think that is the only way forward? I can tell you no amount of force or money would ever get us to be Latins. Perhaps the best we can hope for is mutual respect and understanding but not full communion. I apologize for the times that I have been overly critical of your Church. I will try to do better. Forgive me.

Offline William

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I can sympathize with Wyatt on this one. If the situation was reversed, I certainly wouldn't want to see the Orthodox Church funding the propagation of the false gospel of Rome.
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Offline elijahmaria

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I can sympathize with Wyatt on this one. If the situation was reversed, I certainly wouldn't want to see the Orthodox Church funding the propagation of the false gospel of Rome.

 :D  Frankly I don't think you'll ever need to worry about that.  Communion or no communion.

Offline Eykos

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It would be right for them in their drive to gain some sort of "legitimacy", something they lack.

However, it would be downright dark and borderline demonic for someone in the Orthodox Church to suggest that we take a dime from them.

The Vatican receives it's money from the interest on centuries of looted wealth and from the tithing of its followers to a Christ which doctrinally is a different Christ than He who the Orthodox Church knows.

It would be tantamount to accepting money offered to idols in a temple in order to build churches.

So no.

Offline JamesRottnek

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But aren't we permitted to eat the food offered to idols, according to Paul?  Couldn't one say that the idol is the Roman church and the food is the money, and so we should "eat" it by using it to pronounce the Gospel?
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Apart from the fact that Catholic Charity has a long reach in general, regardless of the religious beliefs of those in need, I would say that it is most surely appropriate for the Vatican to give charitably to those whom she counts as Sister Churches.
Considering them to be Sister Churches doesn't do much good when they see us as the evil step mother.

In fact it is in keeping with the understanding of our current pontiff that the particular Orthodox Churches are not in formal schism, meaning they are not heretical, but that they are in material schism, and that we are both wounded by the schism.
I think we should wait until they are in material union before we start writing checks.

So yes.  I would say that it is vital that we help to build up Orthodoxy wherever and when ever possible.
Since the fullness of orthodoxy exists only in our Church I say keep the funds here.
you should ask for some evidence before you get in a huff about paying for what is not for sale.
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Offline Eykos

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But aren't we permitted to eat the food offered to idols, according to Paul?  Couldn't one say that the idol is the Roman church and the food is the money, and so we should "eat" it by using it to pronounce the Gospel?

Aye, but martyrs also died rather than throw a handful of incense into a fire for idols as well.
Accepting their money gives them legitimacy.
That's a nogo.

Offline Eykos

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I am mainly looking for answers from Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics, although anyone is welcome to weigh in on this.

I would say no, since we are the True Church founded by Jesus Christ and the other Churches are in schism, that by financially supporting them we are financially perpetuating the sin of schism and, thus, are accomplices to this sin.

 I think the Pope is getting ready to become Orthodox and this is just the first step at warming everyone up for his move.  ;)

Well, given that any union will be a false union, and will foretell the coming of the Antichrist, as per a great many holy Elders..
..I'd not be wishing for this.

Offline lubeltri

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Well, given that any union will be a false union, and will foretell the coming of the Antichrist, as per a great many holy Elders..
..I'd not be wishing for this.

But I thought, according to you folks, the Antichrist is already among us?





Offline Eykos

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Well, given that any union will be a false union, and will foretell the coming of the Antichrist, as per a great many holy Elders..
..I'd not be wishing for this.

But I thought, according to you folks, the Antichrist is already among us?






The spirit of the Antichrist is.
Bodily? Not for me to know.

By the way, the Pope could always become Orthodox.
He'd just have to step down, renounce the Papacy, renounce Catholicism as a whole, find an Orthodox Church, admit his errors, become a Catechumen, get Baptised, and then join a parish somewhere in Germany or wherever he's from.
Rather simple really.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2011, 08:55:00 PM by Eykos »

Offline podkarpatska

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I am mainly looking for answers from Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics, although anyone is welcome to weigh in on this.

I would say no, since we are the True Church founded by Jesus Christ and the other Churches are in schism, that by financially supporting them we are financially perpetuating the sin of schism and, thus, are accomplices to this sin.

 I think the Pope is getting ready to become Orthodox and this is just the first step at warming everyone up for his move.  ;)

Well, given that any union will be a false union, and will foretell the coming of the Antichrist, as per a great many holy Elders..
..I'd not be wishing for this.


I suspect that I know what your answers to my questions aregoing to be, but I shall inquire anyway...

Scripture teaches us in the words of Our Lord, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." John 17.  Given our Saviour's words, how can you rely on 'elders' in stating that ANY union will be a false union and a sign of the anti-Christ?

From the Litany of Supplication of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom:  "Having prayed for the unity of faith and the communion of the Holy Spirit, let us commend ourselves and one another, and our whole life to Christ our God.

Response: To You, O Lord."  

Again, why bother with such a request, per your 'elders'? Isn't this therefore asking for something evil according to your statement? This petition is not translated as 'for the unity of THE faith" but rather for the 'unity of faith'?

I know you will dispute the meaning of both of these examples as I understand them, but I for one, will put my trust in the Bishops and teachers of the Orthodox Church rather than in some apocalyptic-prone 'elders.'


Per John 17, the KJV states:

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Offline Eykos

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I am mainly looking for answers from Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics, although anyone is welcome to weigh in on this.

I would say no, since we are the True Church founded by Jesus Christ and the other Churches are in schism, that by financially supporting them we are financially perpetuating the sin of schism and, thus, are accomplices to this sin.

 I think the Pope is getting ready to become Orthodox and this is just the first step at warming everyone up for his move.  ;)

Well, given that any union will be a false union, and will foretell the coming of the Antichrist, as per a great many holy Elders..
..I'd not be wishing for this.


I suspect that I know what your answers to my questions aregoing to be, but I shall inquire anyway...

Scripture teaches us in the words of Our Lord, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." John 17.  Given our Saviour's words, how can you rely on 'elders' in stating that ANY union will be a false union and a sign of the anti-Christ?

From the Litany of Supplication of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom:  "Having prayed for the unity of faith and the communion of the Holy Spirit, let us commend ourselves and one another, and our whole life to Christ our God.

Response: To You, O Lord."  

Again, why bother with such a request, per your 'elders'? Isn't this therefore asking for something evil according to your statement? This petition is not translated as 'for the unity of THE faith" but rather for the 'unity of faith'?

I know you will dispute the meaning of both of these examples as I understand them, but I for one, will put my trust in the Bishops and teachers of the Orthodox Church rather than in some apocalyptic-prone 'elders.'


Per John 17, the KJV states:


Um..there is unity.
The Roman Patriarchate left that unity.
They no longer have a part in it.

They're not Christian. Only the Orthodox Church can truly make that claim.
They are outside of that.

There is nothing salvific about the Catholic Church.

The Church is not "divided". It never can be, never will be.
You cut a branch off of a tree, the tree doesn't all of a sudden become "incomplete".
It's still the tree.


As I read somewhere, the only claim the Romans have to the Cross is that they nailed Christ to it.

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Quote from: Eykos
As I read somewhere, the only claim the Romans have to the Cross is that they nailed Christ to it.

 ::)
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Offline stanley123

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By the way, the Pope could always become Orthodox.
He'd just have to step down, renounce the Papacy, renounce Catholicism as a whole, find an Orthodox Church, admit his errors, become a Catechumen, get Baptised, and then join a parish somewhere in Germany or wherever he's from.
Rather simple really.

Why would he have to step down. Couldn't he become Orthodox and remain Pope? After all, there were several Greek Popes, were there not?

Offline stanley123

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Um..there is unity.
The Roman Patriarchate left that unity.
They no longer have a part in it.

They're not Christian.
So according to Orthodox beleif, Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics are not Christian? Is this just your own crackpot opinion, or how many Orthodox actually believe such?

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Quote from: stanley123
Why would he have to step down. Couldn't he become Orthodox and remain Pope? After all, there were several Greek Popes, were there not?

Sure, but that wouldn't be enough for some. Nothing would.  :P
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Offline ozgeorge

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So according to Orthodox beleif, Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics are not Christian? Is this just your own crackpot opinion, or how many Orthodox actually believe such?
Calm down stanley. This may simply be a cultural thing.
I have just returned from Greece, and over there, when they use the word "Christian", they automatically mean "Orthodox Christian". Hence, they would say "The Russians and the Serbs are Christians and the Italians are Catholics."
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline William

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There is nothing salvific about the Catholic Church.
Nitpicking here, but the Orthodox Church is the Catholic Church. Thus there is something salvific about it.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Wyatt

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The Vatican receives it's money from the interest on centuries of looted wealth and from the tithing of its followers to a Christ which doctrinally is a different Christ than He who the Orthodox Church knows.
Wow...just wow.

Offline stanley123

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So according to Orthodox beleif, Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics are not Christian? Is this just your own crackpot opinion, or how many Orthodox actually believe such?
Calm down stanley. This may simply be a cultural thing.
I have just returned from Greece, and over there, when they use the word "Christian", they automatically mean "Orthodox Christian". Hence, they would say "The Russians and the Serbs are Christians and the Italians are Catholics."
So are Italian Catholics, French Roman Catholics, Ruthenian Eastern Catholics, Ukranian Eastern Catholics, Christian or not?

Offline biro

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The Roman Catholic Church receives its money from the billion-plus people who belong to it.

He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

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And if I seem a little strange, well, that's because I am