Author Topic: Is it right for the Vatican to financially support the Eastern Orthodox Church?  (Read 7810 times)

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Offline biro

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Quote from: WetCatechumen
Internet Orthodox are not all Orthodox.

I know Orthodox in real life who are significantly more ecumenical than those I have spoken to online. Not that they disagree with Orthodoxy's claims to truth, but they are kinder to the Catholic Church.

Hear, hear. I grew up with plenty of Orthodox friends, and none of them were like the more starchy individuals I've seen on Ye Olde Interwebs.  :P
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Offline Peter J

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Couldn't one say that the idol is the Roman church and the food is the money, and so we should "eat" it by using it to pronounce the Gospel?

Well, just about anything could be said. The question is, are you going to say that the Catholic Church is an idol? If so, I think you'll find that most of us Catholics aren't going to waste our time conversing with you.
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Offline ozgeorge

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So according to Orthodox beleif, Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics are not Christian? Is this just your own crackpot opinion, or how many Orthodox actually believe such?
Calm down stanley. This may simply be a cultural thing.
I have just returned from Greece, and over there, when they use the word "Christian", they automatically mean "Orthodox Christian". Hence, they would say "The Russians and the Serbs are Christians and the Italians are Catholics."
So are Italian Catholics, French Roman Catholics, Ruthenian Eastern Catholics, Ukranian Eastern Catholics, Christian or not?
It depends who you ask. If you asked an Orthodox Christian in Greece, they would say "no", not because they intend to be rude, but because they identify themselves as "Christians", so therefore, to them, only those in Communion with them can possibly be Christians. And this makes perfect ecclesiological sense- a Christian is a member of the Church, and you can't have more than One Church. The idea of "denominations" is completely foreign to Greeks- they don't even have a word for it. They simply identify as "Christians", and therefore, a "Roman Catholic" or an "Anglican" is someone with a different religion to the Christians.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline Peter J

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So according to Orthodox beleif, Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics are not Christian? Is this just your own crackpot opinion, or how many Orthodox actually believe such?
Calm down stanley. This may simply be a cultural thing.
I have just returned from Greece, and over there, when they use the word "Christian", they automatically mean "Orthodox Christian". Hence, they would say "The Russians and the Serbs are Christians and the Italians are Catholics."
So are Italian Catholics, French Roman Catholics, Ruthenian Eastern Catholics, Ukranian Eastern Catholics, Christian or not?
It depends who you ask. If you asked an Orthodox Christian in Greece, they would say "no", not because they intend to be rude, but because they identify themselves as "Christians", so therefore, to them, only those in Communion with them can possibly be Christians. And this makes perfect ecclesiological sense- a Christian is a member of the Church, and you can't have more than One Church. The idea of "denominations" is completely foreign to Greeks- they don't even have a word for it. They simply identify as "Christians", and therefore, a "Roman Catholic" or an "Anglican" is someone with a different religion to the Christians.

That bothers me. Although, to be fair, it also bothers me that Catholic Answers promotes the idea that Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism are different religions.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline Peter J

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I can sympathize with Wyatt on this one. If the situation was reversed, I certainly wouldn't want to see the Orthodox Church funding the propagation of the false gospel of Rome.

I've never heard of The False Gospel of Rome before (is it anything like The Gospel of Judas?) but it certainly doesn't sound like something that Orthodox or Catholics should be promoting.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2011, 11:14:54 PM by Peter J »
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Offline Eykos

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What, is there a strong push to not step on the toes of the Papists?

Catholic doctrine is wrong.
They view Christ in terms of "The Atonement".

Meaning that the Christ that they know, is fundamentally different than the Christ that the True Church knows.

They have no concept of Theosis.

Even if they weren't separated from the grace of the True Church (and they are), they STILL would hold nothing any more Salvific than say, the Mormon church. (Which is nothing Salvific at all, mind you)

It's not a matter of hurt feelings or politeness, it's just the truth.
You'll find many that try to disagree.
You'll find many on the wrong side of every discussion.
You found many well-intentioned Orthodox on the wrong side of the Iconoclastic controversy, and they suddenly found themselves heretics and cut off from Grace.

I'm sorry, but that's the way it is.

Get over it, renounce Catholicism and become Orthodox.
Salvation is here. The Vatican can do nothing for you.


This sudden push for "Union" is simply a fulfillment of prophesy, I don't expect it to go away.
Elder Joseph said flat out that the Spirit of Antichrist is pushing for a False Union in preparation for his coming.
The True Church will probably be underground by the time my children are grown.
Sad. But those days are upon us.

« Last Edit: May 29, 2011, 11:22:53 PM by Eykos »

Offline ozgeorge

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So according to Orthodox beleif, Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics are not Christian? Is this just your own crackpot opinion, or how many Orthodox actually believe such?
Calm down stanley. This may simply be a cultural thing.
I have just returned from Greece, and over there, when they use the word "Christian", they automatically mean "Orthodox Christian". Hence, they would say "The Russians and the Serbs are Christians and the Italians are Catholics."
So are Italian Catholics, French Roman Catholics, Ruthenian Eastern Catholics, Ukranian Eastern Catholics, Christian or not?
It depends who you ask. If you asked an Orthodox Christian in Greece, they would say "no", not because they intend to be rude, but because they identify themselves as "Christians", so therefore, to them, only those in Communion with them can possibly be Christians. And this makes perfect ecclesiological sense- a Christian is a member of the Church, and you can't have more than One Church. The idea of "denominations" is completely foreign to Greeks- they don't even have a word for it. They simply identify as "Christians", and therefore, a "Roman Catholic" or an "Anglican" is someone with a different religion to the Christians.

That bothers me. Although, to be fair, it also bothers me that Catholic Answers promotes the idea that Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism are different religions.
Why should it bother you that the idea of different denominations is foreign to a Christian country?
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline ozgeorge

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Elder Joseph said flat out that the Spirit of Antichrist is pushing for a False Union in preparation for his coming.
Where exactly did Elder Joseph say this?
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline Eykos

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Elder Joseph said flat out that the Spirit of Antichrist is pushing for a False Union in preparation for his coming.
Where exactly did Elder Joseph say this?

Mount Athos I imagine. He spent a lot of time there..
..practically lived there from what I heard..
 ::)
« Last Edit: May 29, 2011, 11:38:08 PM by Eykos »

Offline lubeltri

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Hmm, I wonder who is scarier, the faithless Jews or the treacherous Papists?

Offline Peter J

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So according to Orthodox beleif, Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics are not Christian? Is this just your own crackpot opinion, or how many Orthodox actually believe such?
Calm down stanley. This may simply be a cultural thing.
I have just returned from Greece, and over there, when they use the word "Christian", they automatically mean "Orthodox Christian". Hence, they would say "The Russians and the Serbs are Christians and the Italians are Catholics."
So are Italian Catholics, French Roman Catholics, Ruthenian Eastern Catholics, Ukranian Eastern Catholics, Christian or not?
It depends who you ask. If you asked an Orthodox Christian in Greece, they would say "no", not because they intend to be rude, but because they identify themselves as "Christians", so therefore, to them, only those in Communion with them can possibly be Christians. And this makes perfect ecclesiological sense- a Christian is a member of the Church, and you can't have more than One Church. The idea of "denominations" is completely foreign to Greeks- they don't even have a word for it. They simply identify as "Christians", and therefore, a "Roman Catholic" or an "Anglican" is someone with a different religion to the Christians.

That bothers me. Although, to be fair, it also bothers me that Catholic Answers promotes the idea that Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism are different religions.
Why should it bother you that the idea of different denominations is foreign to a Christian country?

That part doesn't bother me. Just the part where 'a "Roman Catholic" or an "Anglican" is someone with a different religion to the Christians'.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline Wyatt

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What, is there a strong push to not step on the toes of the Papists?

Catholic doctrine is wrong.
They view Christ in terms of "The Atonement".

Meaning that the Christ that they know, is fundamentally different than the Christ that the True Church knows.

They have no concept of Theosis.

Even if they weren't separated from the grace of the True Church (and they are), they STILL would hold nothing any more Salvific than say, the Mormon church. (Which is nothing Salvific at all, mind you)

It's not a matter of hurt feelings or politeness, it's just the truth.
You'll find many that try to disagree.
You'll find many on the wrong side of every discussion.
You found many well-intentioned Orthodox on the wrong side of the Iconoclastic controversy, and they suddenly found themselves heretics and cut off from Grace.

I'm sorry, but that's the way it is.

Get over it, renounce Catholicism and become Orthodox.
Salvation is here. The Vatican can do nothing for you.


This sudden push for "Union" is simply a fulfillment of prophesy, I don't expect it to go away.
Elder Joseph said flat out that the Spirit of Antichrist is pushing for a False Union in preparation for his coming.
The True Church will probably be underground by the time my children are grown.
Sad. But those days are upon us.
Yeah, well what if I believe your religion is the religion of the antichrist? Prove me wrong.

Offline Peter J

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Hmm, I wonder who is scarier, the faithless Jews or the treacherous Papists?

That's a rather weird twist to the conversation. And not one that I care for.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline biro

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He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

--

And if I seem a little strange, well, that's because I am

Offline stanley123

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Catholic doctrine is wrong.
They view Christ in terms of "The Atonement".
I don't see this point. I thought that Jesus’ sacrifice was made to God His Father, since  according to Scripture: “Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God” (Ephesians 5:2).

Offline lubeltri

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Hmm, I wonder who is scarier, the faithless Jews or the treacherous Papists?

That's a rather weird twist to the conversation. And not one that I care for.

I forgot to add a wink.

Here it is:  ;)

Offline Peter J

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Hmm, I wonder who is scarier, the faithless Jews or the treacherous Papists?

That's a rather weird twist to the conversation. And not one that I care for.

I forgot to add a wink.

Here it is:  ;)

Still ...
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline Eykos

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Catholic doctrine is wrong.
They view Christ in terms of "The Atonement".
I don't see this point. I thought that Jesus’ sacrifice was made to God His Father, since  according to Scripture: “Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God” (Ephesians 5:2).



You lot view Christ as coming to take the hit for mankind's sin, kind of like a "whipping boy".

This is wrong. Very wrong.

Offline ozgeorge

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So according to Orthodox beleif, Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics are not Christian? Is this just your own crackpot opinion, or how many Orthodox actually believe such?
Calm down stanley. This may simply be a cultural thing.
I have just returned from Greece, and over there, when they use the word "Christian", they automatically mean "Orthodox Christian". Hence, they would say "The Russians and the Serbs are Christians and the Italians are Catholics."
So are Italian Catholics, French Roman Catholics, Ruthenian Eastern Catholics, Ukranian Eastern Catholics, Christian or not?
It depends who you ask. If you asked an Orthodox Christian in Greece, they would say "no", not because they intend to be rude, but because they identify themselves as "Christians", so therefore, to them, only those in Communion with them can possibly be Christians. And this makes perfect ecclesiological sense- a Christian is a member of the Church, and you can't have more than One Church. The idea of "denominations" is completely foreign to Greeks- they don't even have a word for it. They simply identify as "Christians", and therefore, a "Roman Catholic" or an "Anglican" is someone with a different religion to the Christians.

That bothers me. Although, to be fair, it also bothers me that Catholic Answers promotes the idea that Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism are different religions.
Why should it bother you that the idea of different denominations is foreign to a Christian country?

That part doesn't bother me. Just the part where 'a "Roman Catholic" or an "Anglican" is someone with a different religion to the Christians'.
I see. I guess we can't judge different cultures from our respective cultural points of view though. To their mindset, one cannot be a Christian without being a member of the Church. There is no such thing as an "unchurched Christian" in the mindset of the Orthodox Christians in Greece, and the Symbol of Faith (Creed) states that there is only one Church ergo a Christian is someone in Communion with them.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline Eykos

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What, is there a strong push to not step on the toes of the Papists?

Catholic doctrine is wrong.
They view Christ in terms of "The Atonement".

Meaning that the Christ that they know, is fundamentally different than the Christ that the True Church knows.

They have no concept of Theosis.

Even if they weren't separated from the grace of the True Church (and they are), they STILL would hold nothing any more Salvific than say, the Mormon church. (Which is nothing Salvific at all, mind you)

It's not a matter of hurt feelings or politeness, it's just the truth.
You'll find many that try to disagree.
You'll find many on the wrong side of every discussion.
You found many well-intentioned Orthodox on the wrong side of the Iconoclastic controversy, and they suddenly found themselves heretics and cut off from Grace.

I'm sorry, but that's the way it is.

Get over it, renounce Catholicism and become Orthodox.
Salvation is here. The Vatican can do nothing for you.


This sudden push for "Union" is simply a fulfillment of prophesy, I don't expect it to go away.
Elder Joseph said flat out that the Spirit of Antichrist is pushing for a False Union in preparation for his coming.
The True Church will probably be underground by the time my children are grown.
Sad. But those days are upon us.
Yeah, well what if I believe your religion is the religion of the antichrist? Prove me wrong.

Why would I?
You think it matters to the Orthodox Church what the Vatican, Mecca, Salt Lake City, or anyone else thinks?
We've been here for 2000 years. We'll be there an eternity into eternity.

We win the argument by sheer staying power in the end.

Offline Eykos

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So according to Orthodox beleif, Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics are not Christian? Is this just your own crackpot opinion, or how many Orthodox actually believe such?
Calm down stanley. This may simply be a cultural thing.
I have just returned from Greece, and over there, when they use the word "Christian", they automatically mean "Orthodox Christian". Hence, they would say "The Russians and the Serbs are Christians and the Italians are Catholics."
So are Italian Catholics, French Roman Catholics, Ruthenian Eastern Catholics, Ukranian Eastern Catholics, Christian or not?
It depends who you ask. If you asked an Orthodox Christian in Greece, they would say "no", not because they intend to be rude, but because they identify themselves as "Christians", so therefore, to them, only those in Communion with them can possibly be Christians. And this makes perfect ecclesiological sense- a Christian is a member of the Church, and you can't have more than One Church. The idea of "denominations" is completely foreign to Greeks- they don't even have a word for it. They simply identify as "Christians", and therefore, a "Roman Catholic" or an "Anglican" is someone with a different religion to the Christians.

That bothers me. Although, to be fair, it also bothers me that Catholic Answers promotes the idea that Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism are different religions.
Why should it bother you that the idea of different denominations is foreign to a Christian country?

That part doesn't bother me. Just the part where 'a "Roman Catholic" or an "Anglican" is someone with a different religion to the Christians'.


There is no allowance for "different takes on Truth" in Orthodoxy.
There is Truth. There is everything else.
Alter Truth, even a bit, and it ceases to be Truth.

We've got fundamentally different views on Christ and Salvation.

Either you are right or we are, we cannot both be.
That's not how this is played.

In Byzantine days, if you changed doctrine and taught it, they'd throw you into a fire (As per The Alexiad).
That's how serious it was.

It's just as serious today.


I'm not advocating throwing anyone into a fire, mind you, but I'm not going to back down on Orthodox Truth in order to satiate the feelings of someone who otherwise might actually start asking questions about their faith and not go on thinking everything is ok.
Because it's not. Salvation is on the line.
You only get one soul.

Offline biro

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Fifty-four posts today. Wow.

So, how hard are you laughing, Kyle, or are you just bored?

 ::)
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

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Offline lubeltri

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Hmm, I wonder who is scarier, the faithless Jews or the treacherous Papists?

That's a rather weird twist to the conversation. And not one that I care for.

I forgot to add a wink.

Here it is:  ;)

Still ...

The idea of the Catholic Church and its Pope as some sort of shadowy, sinister, malevolent force is believed in certain corners. I find it amusing, since we never could subvert and destroy Orthodoxy, even if we tried. We're too toothless to be the anti-Christ, I think.

Of course, I suppose if we were in league with the Jews, we could be REALLY dangerous.   ;)

I am reminded of a post by our old friend Nektarios, who doesn't seem to be around OC.net anymore:

Quote
My time spent on Mt. Athos was very eye opening as to the true nature of the self proclaimed Orthodox Elder crowd and their lay gruppies.  My personal favorite was the Athonite monk who told me he had changed monasteries because of the open courtyard of his old one - the Jews were able to watch him from their satellites.  You can't blame someone for taking them with a grain of salt. 

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13616.msg192581.html#msg192581


« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 12:14:26 AM by lubeltri »

Offline lubeltri

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To their mindset, one cannot be a Christian without being a member of the Church. There is no such thing as an "unchurched Christian" in the mindset of the Orthodox Christians in Greece, and the Symbol of Faith (Creed) states that there is only one Church ergo a Christian is someone in Communion with them.

Certainly there is such a thing---Orthodox Christians in Greece. (drum beat)  ;)

Offline stanley123

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You lot view Christ as coming to take the hit for mankind's sin, kind of like a "whipping boy".

This is wrong. Very wrong.
I thought that the teaching was according to Scripture: “Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God” (Ephesians 5:2).
How should we view this Scriptural teaching?

Offline Eykos

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Hmm, I wonder who is scarier, the faithless Jews or the treacherous Papists?

That's a rather weird twist to the conversation. And not one that I care for.

I forgot to add a wink.

Here it is:  ;)

Still ...

The idea of the Catholic Church and its Pope as some sort of shadowy, sinister, malevolent force is believed in certain corners. I find it amusing, since we never could subvert and destroy Orthodoxy, even if we tried. We're too toothless to be the anti-Christ, I think.

Of course, I suppose if we were in league with the Jews, we could be REALLY dangerous.   ;)

I am reminded of a post by our old friend Nektarios, who doesn't seem to be around OC.net anymore:

Quote
My time spent on Mt. Athos was very eye opening as to the true nature of the self proclaimed Orthodox Elder crowd and their lay gruppies.  My personal favorite was the Athonite monk who told me he had changed monasteries because of the open courtyard of his old one - the Jews were able to watch him from their satellites.  You can't blame someone for taking them with a grain of salt. 

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13616.msg192581.html#msg192581





I don't think you're a shadowy, evil force.
I just think..er..know..you lot are wrong.

And expansionist.


And any..any..any..union with the Perfect, One, True Church, with a rotting, fracturing, thousand years worth of decomposed flesh covered, dying Catholic church plays right into the hands of the Antichrist, and signals the beginning of the endtimes.

You lot are losing Europe like a balding man loses hair, even the Latin Americans are having a hard time finding a reason to attend church with all the kiddie-fiddling going on.

You need us.
And you cant have us.
Not without everyone involved answering for it on judgment.

Offline biro

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They don't really need you, (Name removed.), as they already outnumber you in population by four or five to one.  ::)

Since when do you speak for all of Orthodoxy?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 12:01:29 PM by Salpy »
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Offline Eykos

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You lot view Christ as coming to take the hit for mankind's sin, kind of like a "whipping boy".

This is wrong. Very wrong.
I thought that the teaching was according to Scripture: “Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God” (Ephesians 5:2).
How should we view this Scriptural teaching?


"God became man, so that man might become god"
-St. Athanasius the Great.

Christ became man, suffered, died, freed those in the tomb, rose again, defeating death..
..that by joining with Christ in Communion, we might partake of the same suffering, the same death, and the same resurrection.

He defeated death, then offered his essence to us, that we might do the same.

There's a beautiful icon of Christ, with the Cross laying down forming a bridge over Hades, with Christ guiding souls across.


It's got nothing to do with "atonement" or him "taking the hit" for mankind.

Offline stanley123

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To their mindset, one cannot be a Christian without being a member of the Church.
So the Ukranian Greek Eastern Catholics are not Christians?
BTW, they are not Catholics either, according to what I read here.
So let me see if I have this correct: it is only the Eastern Orthodox who are Christians and Catholics?
Do you also exclude the Armenian Orthodox or the Oriental Orthodox and say they are not Christians also?  

Offline Eykos

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They don't really need you, (Name removed.) as they already outnumber you in population by four or five to one.  ::)

Since when do you speak for all of Orthodoxy?

Is this supposed to be directed at me?
Given that my name is Ian, Donna?, I'm not sure to whom you are referring.
Nice try.

(Not quite true, I do know who you are referring to. Not me however. Still, nice try)
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 12:02:08 PM by Salpy »

Offline stanley123

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They don't really need you, Kyle, as they already outnumber you in population by four or five to one.  ::)

Since when do you speak for all of Orthodoxy?
Not that I agree with him, of course, but there is a certain amount of truth to the statement that Roman Catholics need E. Orthodoxy, in the sense that there is a certain complementarity between the Eastern and western modes of thought.

Offline biro

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You still didn't answer.

Since when do you speak for all of Orthodoxy?

Is that the only card you've got- say snarky things about Roman Catholics?

You're not exactly drawing converts to your faith if all you've got to offer is being anti- someone else.

He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

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Offline ozgeorge

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To their mindset, one cannot be a Christian without being a member of the Church.
So the Ukranian Greek Eastern Catholics are not Christians?
BTW, they are not Catholics either, according to what I read here.
So let me see if I have this correct: it is only the Eastern Orthodox who are Christians and Catholics?
Do you also exclude the Armenian Orthodox or the Oriental Orthodox and say they are not Christians also?  
See, stan, we were talking about different cultural viewpoints, but you're not interested in that- you just want an argument. Or more correctly, an excuse to feel victimized.
You bore me.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline Papist

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What, is there a strong push to not step on the toes of the Papists

You're a Papist.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline Justin Kissel

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They don't really need you, Kyle, as they already outnumber you in population by four or five to one.  ::)

Since when do you speak for all of Orthodoxy?

Is this supposed to be directed at me?
Given that my name is Ian, Donna?, I'm not sure to whom you are referring.
Nice try.

(Not quite true, I do know who you are referring to. Not me however. Still, nice try)

So someone else, named (Name removed.), is using your email address (Link with personal information removed.)? You being identity-thefted bro? :police:
 Posting personal information about other users without their permission is forbidden by the forum rules. You are given a 40-day-long moderation. If you disagree you can appeal to Veniamin - MK.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 12:00:31 PM by Salpy »
We all have an El Guapo to face. Be brave, and fight like lions!

Form a 'brute squad' then!

Offline Justin Kissel

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See, stan, we were talking about different cultural viewpoints, but you're not interested in that- you just want an argument. Or more correctly, an excuse to feel victimized.
You bore me.

Some Protestants must have the same cultural issues, because I've heard quite a number of Protestants (or "non-denominationals") ask questions like "Are you Christian or Catholic," meaning to put Catholics into a whole other category from themselves.
We all have an El Guapo to face. Be brave, and fight like lions!

Form a 'brute squad' then!

Offline Eykos

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You still didn't answer.

Since when do you speak for all of Orthodoxy?

Is that the only card you've got- say snarky things about Roman Catholics?

You're not exactly drawing converts to your faith if all you've got to offer is being anti- someone else.




Fine. I'll let the Saints and Church speak.

Saint Polycarp of Smyrna : “Anyone who says contrary to what has been decreed - even if he is trustworthy, even if he fasts, even if he lives in virginity, even if he performs signs and prophesizes, let him appear to you as a wolf in a sheep's hide, aspiring to the corruption of the sheep.”

Saint John the Chrysostom, in interpreting the Apostle Paul's words “If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be anathema” , observes that the Apostle “did not say if they should proclaim something contrary or if they should overturn everything, but that even if they should preach even the smallest thing that has not been delivered to you, even if they should simply provoke it, let them be anathema.”


Ah, look at this, found it on a nice long write up against Ecuminism:
We proclaim that Roman Catholicism is a womb of heresies and fallacies. The teaching of the “Filioque” - that is, the procession of the Holy Spirit AND from the Son - is contrary to everything that Christ Himself taught about the Holy Spirit. The entire chorus of Fathers, both in Synods and individually, regard Roman Catholicism as a heresy because apart from the Filioque, it produced a host of other fallacies, such as the primacy and the infallibility of the Pope, the unleavened bread (host), the fires of Purgatory, the immaculate conception of the Theotokos, created Grace, the purchasing of absolution (indulgences)... it has altered nearly all of the teaching and the practice pertaining to Baptism, Chrismation, the Divine Eucharist and the other Sacraments, and has converted the Church to a secular State.

Contemporary Roman Catholicism has deviated even further than the medieval Latins from the teaching of the Church, to the extent that it no longer comprises a continuance of the ancient Church of the West.  It has introduced a swarm of new exaggerations in its “Mariology,” such as the teaching that the Theotokos is a parallel redeemer (co-redemptrix) of the human race. It has reinforced the “Charismatic Movement” of Pentecostal (supposedly Spirit-centered) groups. It has adopted eastern religious practices and methods of prayer and meditation. It has introduced additional innovations into Divine worship, such as dances and musical instruments. It has shortened and essentially ruined the Divine Liturgy. With respect to Ecumenism it has set down the bases for a unification of all religions (panthriskeia) with its Second Vatican Council, by recognizing “spiritual life” in the people of other religions. Dogmatic minimalism has led it to a diminishing of moral requirements, on account of the bond between dogma and morality, resulting in the moral failures of leading clergymen and an increase in moral deviations such as homosexuality and pedophilia among clergymen.[13] By continuing to support “Uniatism” - that caricature of Orthodoxy with which it victimizes and proselytizes faithful - the Vatican is sabotaging the dialogue and is contradicting its supposedly sincere intentions for union.

Generally speaking, after the Second Vatican Council there has been a radical change in Catholicism and a turn towards Protestantism, and even an adoption of various “spiritual” movements of the “New Age.”  

According to Saint Simeon of Thessaloniki, the Mystagogue, “Papism” caused more damage to the Church than all the heresies and schisms combined. We Orthodox have communion with the pre-Schism Popes and we commemorate many Popes as Saints. However, the post-Schism popes have all taught heresy; they have ceased to be successors to the throne of Rome; they no longer have Apostolic succession, because they no longer have the faith of the Apostles and the Fathers. It is for this reason that, as St. Symeon states, with each such pope, “not only do we have no communion, but we also call him a heretic.” On account of their blasphemy against the Holy Spirit with their teaching of the Filioque, they forfeited the presence of the Holy Spirit and therefore everything of theirs is deprived of Grace.[14] Not one of their Mysteries (Sacraments) is valid, according to Saint Simeon: “Therefore the innovators are blaspheming and are far away from the Spirit, by blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, hence everything of theirs is graceless, inasmuch as they have violated and have demoted the Grace of the Spirit... which is why the Holy Spirit is not among them, and there is nothing spiritual in them, as everything of theirs is new and altered and contrary to Divine tradition.”



Wow.
St. Symeon hit it on the head there.
It is for this reason that, as St. Symeon states, with each such pope, “not only do we have no communion, but we also call him a heretic. On account of their blasphemy against the Holy Spirit with their teaching of the Filioque, they forfeited the presence of the Holy Spirit and therefore everything of theirs is deprived of Grace."


That's Saint Symeon. He's a Saint. He does speak for "all of Orthodoxy".

Thank you, and Goodnight.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 12:56:49 AM by Eykos »

Offline Eykos

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They don't really need you, (Name removed.), as they already outnumber you in population by four or five to one.  ::)

Since when do you speak for all of Orthodoxy?

Is this supposed to be directed at me?
Given that my name is Ian, Donna?, I'm not sure to whom you are referring.
Nice try.

(Not quite true, I do know who you are referring to. Not me however. Still, nice try)

So someone else, named (Name removed.), is using your email address (Link removed.)? You being identity-thefted bro? :police:


No, I'm protecting my brothers username.
You make it regular practice to drop real life names on internet forums without the permission of the person in question?
I'm quite sure that's a violation of terms somewhere.
I've notified the moderators. They'll take care of it.

Now when you get done playing Sherlock, attend to my last post.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 12:03:38 PM by Salpy »

Offline biro

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What is it about young converts? I'm sorry, but do some of them think they have to prove something? "I'll read everything there is to read (or just act like it), and then go shove it in someone else's face"?

 ???

The only thing he's doing is pushing people away.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 12:58:27 AM by biro »
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

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And if I seem a little strange, well, that's because I am

Offline ozgeorge

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See, stan, we were talking about different cultural viewpoints, but you're not interested in that- you just want an argument. Or more correctly, an excuse to feel victimized.
You bore me.

Some Protestants must have the same cultural issues, because I've heard quite a number of Protestants (or "non-denominationals") ask questions like "Are you Christian or Catholic," meaning to put Catholics into a whole other category from themselves.
Actually, that is also a cultural issue, and as I was trying to point out, we are looking at it from a different viewpoint.
To such Protestants (especially the "Mega-Church" type converts)- that is their only experience of Christianity, so they don't recognise Roman Catholics as "Christians" (because they look so different to what they understand a Christian to be). Its not that they intend to be "rude" or derogatory.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline Eykos

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What is it about young converts? I'm sorry, but do some of them think they have to prove something? "I'll read everything there is to read (or just act like it), and then go shove it in someone else's face"?

 ???

The only thing he's doing is pushing people away.

What is that line about salt losing it's saltiness, and becoming worthless or something like that?
Yeah..I read that somewhere.

What are you people afraid of?
When were you planning on sharing the words of Saints like :
St. Symeon states, of the pope, “not only do we have no communion, but we also call him a heretic. On account of their blasphemy against the Holy Spirit with their teaching of the Filioque, they forfeited the presence of the Holy Spirit and therefore everything of theirs is deprived of Grace."

Was it part of the plan?
Get in close, then drop it on them over coffee?
People NEED to hear this stuff.
As I said, it's not a matter of feelings.
It's a matter of Truth.

Going on like it's all ok, that's not just wrong, that's tragic.

Offline biro

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Boring...   ::)

So, do you think he'll get to a hundred posts on his first day?
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

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Offline ozgeorge

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And any..any..any..union with the Perfect, One, True Church, with a rotting, fracturing, thousand years worth of decomposed flesh covered, dying Catholic church plays right into the hands of the Antichrist, and signals the beginning of the endtimes.
The "endtimes" must have begun in 1439 then.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline lubeltri

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You lot view Christ as coming to take the hit for mankind's sin, kind of like a "whipping boy".

This is wrong. Very wrong.
I thought that the teaching was according to Scripture: “Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God” (Ephesians 5:2).
How should we view this Scriptural teaching?


"God became man, so that man might become god"
-St. Athanasius the Great.

Christ became man, suffered, died, freed those in the tomb, rose again, defeating death..
..that by joining with Christ in Communion, we might partake of the same suffering, the same death, and the same resurrection.

He defeated death, then offered his essence to us, that we might do the same.

There's a beautiful icon of Christ, with the Cross laying down forming a bridge over Hades, with Christ guiding souls across.


It's got nothing to do with "atonement" or him "taking the hit" for mankind.

"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."

Offline Eykos

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And any..any..any..union with the Perfect, One, True Church, with a rotting, fracturing, thousand years worth of decomposed flesh covered, dying Catholic church plays right into the hands of the Antichrist, and signals the beginning of the endtimes.
The "endtimes" must have begun in 1439 then.


No, but Constantinople fell and Hagia Sophia was desecrated as punishment.
The next one will be much, much worse.