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Author Topic: Is it right for the Vatican to financially support the Eastern Orthodox Church?  (Read 6126 times) Average Rating: 0
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Wyatt
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« on: May 29, 2011, 02:00:29 PM »

I am mainly looking for answers from Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics, although anyone is welcome to weigh in on this.

I would say no, since we are the True Church founded by Jesus Christ and the other Churches are in schism, that by financially supporting them we are financially perpetuating the sin of schism and, thus, are accomplices to this sin.
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Alcuin
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« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2011, 02:12:28 PM »

Can you be more specific about what you mean by financial backing?
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Wyatt
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« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2011, 02:17:29 PM »

Sorry, I realize now that I should have provided some context. I started this thread because I thought the topic was worth exploring and this thread is in response to the following:

Yes.  And Orthodox Patriarchs gratefully accept money from the Vatican for building up parishes and seminaries.  So what do we do?....Give with the open hand and then spit in the eye and slap with the other hand?

You have gone far afield from where I began with this and added things that do not belong with my initial sorrow at your comment below so I have no more to say but to remind you of where I began.  It was gratuitous and mean spirited given the fact that the Vatican has provided funds to Orthodox jurisdictions for many years to help them overcome some of the impoverishment of the Soviet period.  You do not give and slap at the same time.  Very bad way to treat anyone:

"Too good to share the Sacraments but not too good to take our money.   Wink"
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« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2011, 02:21:40 PM »

I am mainly looking for answers from Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics, although anyone is welcome to weigh in on this.

I would say no, since we are the True Church founded by Jesus Christ and the other Churches are in schism, that by financially supporting them we are financially perpetuating the sin of schism and, thus, are accomplices to this sin.

Apart from the fact that Catholic Charity has a long reach in general, regardless of the religious beliefs of those in need, I would say that it is most surely appropriate for the Vatican to give charitably to those whom she counts as Sister Churches.

In fact it is in keeping with the understanding of our current pontiff that the particular Orthodox Churches are not in formal schism, meaning they are not heretical, but that they are in material schism, and that we are both wounded by the schism.

So yes.  I would say that it is vital that we help to build up Orthodoxy wherever and when ever possible.
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« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2011, 02:23:41 PM »

Is there any evidence of this? I am unaware of this.
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Alcuin
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« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2011, 02:24:45 PM »

I don't think I'd really have a problem with it. It engenders good will and is in the spirit of Christian charity to a sister church. Communion is the summit of unity, not the starting point. You can't get to the summit of the mountain if you aren't willing to start climbing from the valley.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2011, 02:25:39 PM by Alcuin » Logged
Wyatt
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« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2011, 02:26:15 PM »

Apart from the fact that Catholic Charity has a long reach in general, regardless of the religious beliefs of those in need, I would say that it is most surely appropriate for the Vatican to give charitably to those whom she counts as Sister Churches.
Considering them to be Sister Churches doesn't do much good when they see us as the evil step mother.

In fact it is in keeping with the understanding of our current pontiff that the particular Orthodox Churches are not in formal schism, meaning they are not heretical, but that they are in material schism, and that we are both wounded by the schism.
I think we should wait until they are in material union before we start writing checks.

So yes.  I would say that it is vital that we help to build up Orthodoxy wherever and when ever possible.
Since the fullness of orthodoxy exists only in our Church I say keep the funds here.
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« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2011, 02:28:49 PM »

Apart from the fact that Catholic Charity has a long reach in general, regardless of the religious beliefs of those in need, I would say that it is most surely appropriate for the Vatican to give charitably to those whom she counts as Sister Churches.
Considering them to be Sister Churches doesn't do much good when they see us as the evil step mother.

In fact it is in keeping with the understanding of our current pontiff that the particular Orthodox Churches are not in formal schism, meaning they are not heretical, but that they are in material schism, and that we are both wounded by the schism.
I think we should wait until they are in material union before we start writing checks.

So yes.  I would say that it is vital that we help to build up Orthodoxy wherever and when ever possible.
Since the fullness of orthodoxy exists only in our Church I say keep the funds here.

Much too late for that, dearheart.  You'll have to take this one up with the Vatican.

M.
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Wyatt
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« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2011, 02:31:14 PM »

Apart from the fact that Catholic Charity has a long reach in general, regardless of the religious beliefs of those in need, I would say that it is most surely appropriate for the Vatican to give charitably to those whom she counts as Sister Churches.
Considering them to be Sister Churches doesn't do much good when they see us as the evil step mother.

In fact it is in keeping with the understanding of our current pontiff that the particular Orthodox Churches are not in formal schism, meaning they are not heretical, but that they are in material schism, and that we are both wounded by the schism.
I think we should wait until they are in material union before we start writing checks.

So yes.  I would say that it is vital that we help to build up Orthodoxy wherever and when ever possible.
Since the fullness of orthodoxy exists only in our Church I say keep the funds here.

Much too late for that, dearheart.  You'll have to take this one up with the Vatican.

M.
I'm sure if funds are actually being handed out that the Holy Father has some rationale for it, although I am somewhat puzzled as to why we are essentially giving out money to allow Churches to remain in schism. To me, help from Rome should only come with full communion with Rome.
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« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2011, 02:32:16 PM »

Is there any evidence of this? I am unaware of this.

Google =Catholic Charity to Orthodox Church=  It's not exhaustive but it will let you know that I am not talking out of my hat.
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« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2011, 02:33:14 PM »

Apart from the fact that Catholic Charity has a long reach in general, regardless of the religious beliefs of those in need, I would say that it is most surely appropriate for the Vatican to give charitably to those whom she counts as Sister Churches.
Considering them to be Sister Churches doesn't do much good when they see us as the evil step mother.

In fact it is in keeping with the understanding of our current pontiff that the particular Orthodox Churches are not in formal schism, meaning they are not heretical, but that they are in material schism, and that we are both wounded by the schism.
I think we should wait until they are in material union before we start writing checks.

So yes.  I would say that it is vital that we help to build up Orthodoxy wherever and when ever possible.
Since the fullness of orthodoxy exists only in our Church I say keep the funds here.

Much too late for that, dearheart.  You'll have to take this one up with the Vatican.

M.
I'm sure if funds are actually being handed out that the Holy Father has some rationale for it, although I am somewhat puzzled as to why we are essentially giving out money to allow Churches to remain in schism. To me, help from Rome should only come with full communion with Rome.

Funds are there to help them to recover, maintain and grow.
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Wyatt
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« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2011, 02:36:00 PM »

Apart from the fact that Catholic Charity has a long reach in general, regardless of the religious beliefs of those in need, I would say that it is most surely appropriate for the Vatican to give charitably to those whom she counts as Sister Churches.
Considering them to be Sister Churches doesn't do much good when they see us as the evil step mother.

In fact it is in keeping with the understanding of our current pontiff that the particular Orthodox Churches are not in formal schism, meaning they are not heretical, but that they are in material schism, and that we are both wounded by the schism.
I think we should wait until they are in material union before we start writing checks.

So yes.  I would say that it is vital that we help to build up Orthodoxy wherever and when ever possible.
Since the fullness of orthodoxy exists only in our Church I say keep the funds here.

Much too late for that, dearheart.  You'll have to take this one up with the Vatican.

M.
I'm sure if funds are actually being handed out that the Holy Father has some rationale for it, although I am somewhat puzzled as to why we are essentially giving out money to allow Churches to remain in schism. To me, help from Rome should only come with full communion with Rome.

Funds are there to help them to recover, maintain and grow.
So at what time do we stop giving handouts and start pushing full communion, or are we just going to continue to help monetarily while leaving unity as being optional?
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« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2011, 02:45:29 PM »


So at what time do we stop giving handouts and start pushing full communion, or are we just going to continue to help monetarily while leaving unity as being optional?

There is no contingency clause on aid to a Sister Church.

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« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2011, 02:57:17 PM »


So at what time do we stop giving handouts and start pushing full communion, or are we just going to continue to help monetarily while leaving unity as being optional?

There is no contingency clause on aid to a Sister Church.
Does it at all bother you to consider groups "Sister Churches" when they don't recognize us as a Church at all?
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GabrieltheCelt
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« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2011, 03:01:54 PM »

I am mainly looking for answers from Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics, although anyone is welcome to weigh in on this.

I would say no, since we are the True Church founded by Jesus Christ and the other Churches are in schism, that by financially supporting them we are financially perpetuating the sin of schism and, thus, are accomplices to this sin.

 I think the Pope is getting ready to become Orthodox and this is just the first step at warming everyone up for his move.  Wink
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« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2011, 03:03:40 PM »


So at what time do we stop giving handouts and start pushing full communion, or are we just going to continue to help monetarily while leaving unity as being optional?

There is no contingency clause on aid to a Sister Church.
Does it at all bother you to consider groups "Sister Churches" when they don't recognize us as a Church at all?

Not at all, Wyatt.  Not even a little bit.  If we don't get on the course to resumption of communion and remain on that course with open and contrite heart,  then we will never be open to the movement of the Holy Spirit and will continue on the path of self-will and schism and that is not only a tragedy, it is a sin.
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« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2011, 03:04:56 PM »

I am mainly looking for answers from Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics, although anyone is welcome to weigh in on this.

I would say no, since we are the True Church founded by Jesus Christ and the other Churches are in schism, that by financially supporting them we are financially perpetuating the sin of schism and, thus, are accomplices to this sin.

 I think the Pope is getting ready to become Orthodox and this is just the first step at warming everyone up for his move.  Wink
Sweet, and by that I presume you mean that you all are getting ready to recognize the orthodoxy of the See of Rome. We look forward to welcoming you home!


So at what time do we stop giving handouts and start pushing full communion, or are we just going to continue to help monetarily while leaving unity as being optional?

There is no contingency clause on aid to a Sister Church.
Does it at all bother you to consider groups "Sister Churches" when they don't recognize us as a Church at all?

Not at all, Wyatt.  Not even a little bit.  If we don't get on the course to resumption of communion and remain on that course with open and contrite heart,  then we will never be open to the movement of the Holy Spirit and will continue on the path of self-will and schism and that is not only a tragedy, it is a sin.
Well, since we are the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church we are not guilty of the sin of schism. Only those who separate themselves from us are.
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« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2011, 03:06:59 PM »

I am mainly looking for answers from Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics, although anyone is welcome to weigh in on this.

I would say no, since we are the True Church founded by Jesus Christ and the other Churches are in schism, that by financially supporting them we are financially perpetuating the sin of schism and, thus, are accomplices to this sin.

 I think the Pope is getting ready to become Orthodox and this is just the first step at warming everyone up for his move.  Wink
Sweet, and by that I presume you mean that you all are getting ready to recognize the orthodoxy of the See of Rome. We look forward to welcoming you home!

LOL!  Why recognize orthodoxy when we have Orthodoxy?   Wink
« Last Edit: May 29, 2011, 03:07:24 PM by GabrieltheCelt » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2011, 03:08:43 PM »

I am mainly looking for answers from Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics, although anyone is welcome to weigh in on this.

I would say no, since we are the True Church founded by Jesus Christ and the other Churches are in schism, that by financially supporting them we are financially perpetuating the sin of schism and, thus, are accomplices to this sin.

 I think the Pope is getting ready to become Orthodox and this is just the first step at warming everyone up for his move.  Wink
Sweet, and by that I presume you mean that you all are getting ready to recognize the orthodoxy of the See of Rome. We look forward to welcoming you home!

LOL!  Why recognize orthodoxy when we have Orthodoxy?   Wink
Because "orthodoxy" is right belief whereas "Orthodoxy" is the name your communion goes by.
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« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2011, 03:42:28 PM »

I am mainly looking for answers from Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics, although anyone is welcome to weigh in on this.

I would say no, since we are the True Church founded by Jesus Christ and the other Churches are in schism, that by financially supporting them we are financially perpetuating the sin of schism and, thus, are accomplices to this sin.

 I think the Pope is getting ready to become Orthodox and this is just the first step at warming everyone up for his move.  Wink
Sweet, and by that I presume you mean that you all are getting ready to recognize the orthodoxy of the See of Rome. We look forward to welcoming you home!

LOL!  Why recognize orthodoxy when we have Orthodoxy?   Wink
Because "orthodoxy" is right belief whereas "Orthodoxy" is the name your communion goes by.
You win.  I hope you know I was just funnin' with you.  Smiley
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« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2011, 03:59:18 PM »

Considering them to be Sister Churches doesn't do much good when they see us as the evil step mother.

Rebel sister, not mother.
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« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2011, 04:21:37 PM »


So at what time do we stop giving handouts and start pushing full communion, or are we just going to continue to help monetarily while leaving unity as being optional?

There is no contingency clause on aid to a Sister Church.
Does it at all bother you to consider groups "Sister Churches" when they don't recognize us as a Church at all?

Internet Orthodox are not all Orthodox.

I know Orthodox in real life who are significantly more ecumenical than those I have spoken to online. Not that they disagree with Orthodoxy's claims to truth, but they are kinder to the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2011, 05:33:42 PM »

Considering them to be Sister Churches doesn't do much good when they see us as the evil step mother.

Rebel sister, not mother.
Rebel step sister then. You definitely don't consider us blood.
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« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2011, 06:08:46 PM »

Wyatt,

You make it sound like you consider us blood. If you do then why are you so insistent on forcing purely Latin dogmas on us? Do you think that is the only way forward? I can tell you no amount of force or money would ever get us to be Latins. Perhaps the best we can hope for is mutual respect and understanding but not full communion. I apologize for the times that I have been overly critical of your Church. I will try to do better. Forgive me.
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« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2011, 06:10:00 PM »

I can sympathize with Wyatt on this one. If the situation was reversed, I certainly wouldn't want to see the Orthodox Church funding the propagation of the false gospel of Rome.
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« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2011, 06:19:06 PM »

I can sympathize with Wyatt on this one. If the situation was reversed, I certainly wouldn't want to see the Orthodox Church funding the propagation of the false gospel of Rome.

 Cheesy  Frankly I don't think you'll ever need to worry about that.  Communion or no communion.
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« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2011, 07:26:58 PM »

It would be right for them in their drive to gain some sort of "legitimacy", something they lack.

However, it would be downright dark and borderline demonic for someone in the Orthodox Church to suggest that we take a dime from them.

The Vatican receives it's money from the interest on centuries of looted wealth and from the tithing of its followers to a Christ which doctrinally is a different Christ than He who the Orthodox Church knows.

It would be tantamount to accepting money offered to idols in a temple in order to build churches.

So no.
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« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2011, 07:46:50 PM »

But aren't we permitted to eat the food offered to idols, according to Paul?  Couldn't one say that the idol is the Roman church and the food is the money, and so we should "eat" it by using it to pronounce the Gospel?
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« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2011, 07:47:17 PM »

Christus resurrexit!
Apart from the fact that Catholic Charity has a long reach in general, regardless of the religious beliefs of those in need, I would say that it is most surely appropriate for the Vatican to give charitably to those whom she counts as Sister Churches.
Considering them to be Sister Churches doesn't do much good when they see us as the evil step mother.

In fact it is in keeping with the understanding of our current pontiff that the particular Orthodox Churches are not in formal schism, meaning they are not heretical, but that they are in material schism, and that we are both wounded by the schism.
I think we should wait until they are in material union before we start writing checks.

So yes.  I would say that it is vital that we help to build up Orthodoxy wherever and when ever possible.
Since the fullness of orthodoxy exists only in our Church I say keep the funds here.
you should ask for some evidence before you get in a huff about paying for what is not for sale.
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« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2011, 08:07:15 PM »

But aren't we permitted to eat the food offered to idols, according to Paul?  Couldn't one say that the idol is the Roman church and the food is the money, and so we should "eat" it by using it to pronounce the Gospel?

Aye, but martyrs also died rather than throw a handful of incense into a fire for idols as well.
Accepting their money gives them legitimacy.
That's a nogo.
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« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2011, 08:09:33 PM »

I am mainly looking for answers from Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics, although anyone is welcome to weigh in on this.

I would say no, since we are the True Church founded by Jesus Christ and the other Churches are in schism, that by financially supporting them we are financially perpetuating the sin of schism and, thus, are accomplices to this sin.

 I think the Pope is getting ready to become Orthodox and this is just the first step at warming everyone up for his move.  Wink

Well, given that any union will be a false union, and will foretell the coming of the Antichrist, as per a great many holy Elders..
..I'd not be wishing for this.
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« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2011, 08:42:02 PM »



Well, given that any union will be a false union, and will foretell the coming of the Antichrist, as per a great many holy Elders..
..I'd not be wishing for this.

But I thought, according to you folks, the Antichrist is already among us?




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« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2011, 08:54:42 PM »



Well, given that any union will be a false union, and will foretell the coming of the Antichrist, as per a great many holy Elders..
..I'd not be wishing for this.

But I thought, according to you folks, the Antichrist is already among us?






The spirit of the Antichrist is.
Bodily? Not for me to know.

By the way, the Pope could always become Orthodox.
He'd just have to step down, renounce the Papacy, renounce Catholicism as a whole, find an Orthodox Church, admit his errors, become a Catechumen, get Baptised, and then join a parish somewhere in Germany or wherever he's from.
Rather simple really.
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« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2011, 09:02:05 PM »

I am mainly looking for answers from Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics, although anyone is welcome to weigh in on this.

I would say no, since we are the True Church founded by Jesus Christ and the other Churches are in schism, that by financially supporting them we are financially perpetuating the sin of schism and, thus, are accomplices to this sin.

 I think the Pope is getting ready to become Orthodox and this is just the first step at warming everyone up for his move.  Wink

Well, given that any union will be a false union, and will foretell the coming of the Antichrist, as per a great many holy Elders..
..I'd not be wishing for this.


I suspect that I know what your answers to my questions aregoing to be, but I shall inquire anyway...

Scripture teaches us in the words of Our Lord, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." John 17.  Given our Saviour's words, how can you rely on 'elders' in stating that ANY union will be a false union and a sign of the anti-Christ?

From the Litany of Supplication of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom:  "Having prayed for the unity of faith and the communion of the Holy Spirit, let us commend ourselves and one another, and our whole life to Christ our God.

Response: To You, O Lord."  

Again, why bother with such a request, per your 'elders'? Isn't this therefore asking for something evil according to your statement? This petition is not translated as 'for the unity of THE faith" but rather for the 'unity of faith'?

I know you will dispute the meaning of both of these examples as I understand them, but I for one, will put my trust in the Bishops and teachers of the Orthodox Church rather than in some apocalyptic-prone 'elders.'


Per John 17, the KJV states:
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« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2011, 09:07:48 PM »

It is as right as it is for the Orthodox Church to contribute to the restoration of a Mosque:
http://listserv.goarch.org/scripts/wa.exe?A3=ind0403&L=OCMC&E=quoted-printable&P=273651&B=------%3D_NextPart_000_00D4_01C41723.4399BEA0&T=text%2Fhtml;%20charset=iso-8859-1&XSS=3&header=1
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« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2011, 09:12:22 PM »

I am mainly looking for answers from Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics, although anyone is welcome to weigh in on this.

I would say no, since we are the True Church founded by Jesus Christ and the other Churches are in schism, that by financially supporting them we are financially perpetuating the sin of schism and, thus, are accomplices to this sin.

 I think the Pope is getting ready to become Orthodox and this is just the first step at warming everyone up for his move.  Wink

Well, given that any union will be a false union, and will foretell the coming of the Antichrist, as per a great many holy Elders..
..I'd not be wishing for this.


I suspect that I know what your answers to my questions aregoing to be, but I shall inquire anyway...

Scripture teaches us in the words of Our Lord, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." John 17.  Given our Saviour's words, how can you rely on 'elders' in stating that ANY union will be a false union and a sign of the anti-Christ?

From the Litany of Supplication of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom:  "Having prayed for the unity of faith and the communion of the Holy Spirit, let us commend ourselves and one another, and our whole life to Christ our God.

Response: To You, O Lord."  

Again, why bother with such a request, per your 'elders'? Isn't this therefore asking for something evil according to your statement? This petition is not translated as 'for the unity of THE faith" but rather for the 'unity of faith'?

I know you will dispute the meaning of both of these examples as I understand them, but I for one, will put my trust in the Bishops and teachers of the Orthodox Church rather than in some apocalyptic-prone 'elders.'


Per John 17, the KJV states:


Um..there is unity.
The Roman Patriarchate left that unity.
They no longer have a part in it.

They're not Christian. Only the Orthodox Church can truly make that claim.
They are outside of that.

There is nothing salvific about the Catholic Church.

The Church is not "divided". It never can be, never will be.
You cut a branch off of a tree, the tree doesn't all of a sudden become "incomplete".
It's still the tree.


As I read somewhere, the only claim the Romans have to the Cross is that they nailed Christ to it.
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« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2011, 09:15:16 PM »

Quote from: Eykos
As I read somewhere, the only claim the Romans have to the Cross is that they nailed Christ to it.

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2011, 09:37:46 PM »

By the way, the Pope could always become Orthodox.
He'd just have to step down, renounce the Papacy, renounce Catholicism as a whole, find an Orthodox Church, admit his errors, become a Catechumen, get Baptised, and then join a parish somewhere in Germany or wherever he's from.
Rather simple really.

Why would he have to step down. Couldn't he become Orthodox and remain Pope? After all, there were several Greek Popes, were there not?
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« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2011, 09:41:41 PM »


Um..there is unity.
The Roman Patriarchate left that unity.
They no longer have a part in it.

They're not Christian.
So according to Orthodox beleif, Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics are not Christian? Is this just your own crackpot opinion, or how many Orthodox actually believe such?
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« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2011, 09:43:07 PM »

Quote from: stanley123
Why would he have to step down. Couldn't he become Orthodox and remain Pope? After all, there were several Greek Popes, were there not?

Sure, but that wouldn't be enough for some. Nothing would.  Tongue
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« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2011, 09:50:32 PM »

So according to Orthodox beleif, Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics are not Christian? Is this just your own crackpot opinion, or how many Orthodox actually believe such?
Calm down stanley. This may simply be a cultural thing.
I have just returned from Greece, and over there, when they use the word "Christian", they automatically mean "Orthodox Christian". Hence, they would say "The Russians and the Serbs are Christians and the Italians are Catholics."
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« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2011, 09:52:16 PM »

There is nothing salvific about the Catholic Church.
Nitpicking here, but the Orthodox Church is the Catholic Church. Thus there is something salvific about it.
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« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2011, 10:00:03 PM »

The Vatican receives it's money from the interest on centuries of looted wealth and from the tithing of its followers to a Christ which doctrinally is a different Christ than He who the Orthodox Church knows.
Wow...just wow.
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« Reply #43 on: May 29, 2011, 10:23:50 PM »

So according to Orthodox beleif, Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics are not Christian? Is this just your own crackpot opinion, or how many Orthodox actually believe such?
Calm down stanley. This may simply be a cultural thing.
I have just returned from Greece, and over there, when they use the word "Christian", they automatically mean "Orthodox Christian". Hence, they would say "The Russians and the Serbs are Christians and the Italians are Catholics."
So are Italian Catholics, French Roman Catholics, Ruthenian Eastern Catholics, Ukranian Eastern Catholics, Christian or not?
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« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2011, 10:24:35 PM »

The Roman Catholic Church receives its money from the billion-plus people who belong to it.

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« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2011, 10:27:36 PM »

Quote from: WetCatechumen
Internet Orthodox are not all Orthodox.

I know Orthodox in real life who are significantly more ecumenical than those I have spoken to online. Not that they disagree with Orthodoxy's claims to truth, but they are kinder to the Catholic Church.

Hear, hear. I grew up with plenty of Orthodox friends, and none of them were like the more starchy individuals I've seen on Ye Olde Interwebs.  Tongue
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« Reply #46 on: May 29, 2011, 10:29:39 PM »

Couldn't one say that the idol is the Roman church and the food is the money, and so we should "eat" it by using it to pronounce the Gospel?

Well, just about anything could be said. The question is, are you going to say that the Catholic Church is an idol? If so, I think you'll find that most of us Catholics aren't going to waste our time conversing with you.
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« Reply #47 on: May 29, 2011, 10:36:56 PM »

So according to Orthodox beleif, Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics are not Christian? Is this just your own crackpot opinion, or how many Orthodox actually believe such?
Calm down stanley. This may simply be a cultural thing.
I have just returned from Greece, and over there, when they use the word "Christian", they automatically mean "Orthodox Christian". Hence, they would say "The Russians and the Serbs are Christians and the Italians are Catholics."
So are Italian Catholics, French Roman Catholics, Ruthenian Eastern Catholics, Ukranian Eastern Catholics, Christian or not?
It depends who you ask. If you asked an Orthodox Christian in Greece, they would say "no", not because they intend to be rude, but because they identify themselves as "Christians", so therefore, to them, only those in Communion with them can possibly be Christians. And this makes perfect ecclesiological sense- a Christian is a member of the Church, and you can't have more than One Church. The idea of "denominations" is completely foreign to Greeks- they don't even have a word for it. They simply identify as "Christians", and therefore, a "Roman Catholic" or an "Anglican" is someone with a different religion to the Christians.
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« Reply #48 on: May 29, 2011, 11:09:52 PM »

So according to Orthodox beleif, Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics are not Christian? Is this just your own crackpot opinion, or how many Orthodox actually believe such?
Calm down stanley. This may simply be a cultural thing.
I have just returned from Greece, and over there, when they use the word "Christian", they automatically mean "Orthodox Christian". Hence, they would say "The Russians and the Serbs are Christians and the Italians are Catholics."
So are Italian Catholics, French Roman Catholics, Ruthenian Eastern Catholics, Ukranian Eastern Catholics, Christian or not?
It depends who you ask. If you asked an Orthodox Christian in Greece, they would say "no", not because they intend to be rude, but because they identify themselves as "Christians", so therefore, to them, only those in Communion with them can possibly be Christians. And this makes perfect ecclesiological sense- a Christian is a member of the Church, and you can't have more than One Church. The idea of "denominations" is completely foreign to Greeks- they don't even have a word for it. They simply identify as "Christians", and therefore, a "Roman Catholic" or an "Anglican" is someone with a different religion to the Christians.

That bothers me. Although, to be fair, it also bothers me that Catholic Answers promotes the idea that Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism are different religions.
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« Reply #49 on: May 29, 2011, 11:13:16 PM »

I can sympathize with Wyatt on this one. If the situation was reversed, I certainly wouldn't want to see the Orthodox Church funding the propagation of the false gospel of Rome.

I've never heard of The False Gospel of Rome before (is it anything like The Gospel of Judas?) but it certainly doesn't sound like something that Orthodox or Catholics should be promoting.
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« Reply #50 on: May 29, 2011, 11:17:04 PM »

What, is there a strong push to not step on the toes of the Papists?

Catholic doctrine is wrong.
They view Christ in terms of "The Atonement".

Meaning that the Christ that they know, is fundamentally different than the Christ that the True Church knows.

They have no concept of Theosis.

Even if they weren't separated from the grace of the True Church (and they are), they STILL would hold nothing any more Salvific than say, the Mormon church. (Which is nothing Salvific at all, mind you)

It's not a matter of hurt feelings or politeness, it's just the truth.
You'll find many that try to disagree.
You'll find many on the wrong side of every discussion.
You found many well-intentioned Orthodox on the wrong side of the Iconoclastic controversy, and they suddenly found themselves heretics and cut off from Grace.

I'm sorry, but that's the way it is.

Get over it, renounce Catholicism and become Orthodox.
Salvation is here. The Vatican can do nothing for you.


This sudden push for "Union" is simply a fulfillment of prophesy, I don't expect it to go away.
Elder Joseph said flat out that the Spirit of Antichrist is pushing for a False Union in preparation for his coming.
The True Church will probably be underground by the time my children are grown.
Sad. But those days are upon us.

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« Reply #51 on: May 29, 2011, 11:28:08 PM »

So according to Orthodox beleif, Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics are not Christian? Is this just your own crackpot opinion, or how many Orthodox actually believe such?
Calm down stanley. This may simply be a cultural thing.
I have just returned from Greece, and over there, when they use the word "Christian", they automatically mean "Orthodox Christian". Hence, they would say "The Russians and the Serbs are Christians and the Italians are Catholics."
So are Italian Catholics, French Roman Catholics, Ruthenian Eastern Catholics, Ukranian Eastern Catholics, Christian or not?
It depends who you ask. If you asked an Orthodox Christian in Greece, they would say "no", not because they intend to be rude, but because they identify themselves as "Christians", so therefore, to them, only those in Communion with them can possibly be Christians. And this makes perfect ecclesiological sense- a Christian is a member of the Church, and you can't have more than One Church. The idea of "denominations" is completely foreign to Greeks- they don't even have a word for it. They simply identify as "Christians", and therefore, a "Roman Catholic" or an "Anglican" is someone with a different religion to the Christians.

That bothers me. Although, to be fair, it also bothers me that Catholic Answers promotes the idea that Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism are different religions.
Why should it bother you that the idea of different denominations is foreign to a Christian country?
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« Reply #52 on: May 29, 2011, 11:31:49 PM »

Elder Joseph said flat out that the Spirit of Antichrist is pushing for a False Union in preparation for his coming.
Where exactly did Elder Joseph say this?
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« Reply #53 on: May 29, 2011, 11:36:48 PM »

Elder Joseph said flat out that the Spirit of Antichrist is pushing for a False Union in preparation for his coming.
Where exactly did Elder Joseph say this?

Mount Athos I imagine. He spent a lot of time there..
..practically lived there from what I heard..
 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #54 on: May 29, 2011, 11:41:50 PM »

Hmm, I wonder who is scarier, the faithless Jews or the treacherous Papists?
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« Reply #55 on: May 29, 2011, 11:43:59 PM »

So according to Orthodox beleif, Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics are not Christian? Is this just your own crackpot opinion, or how many Orthodox actually believe such?
Calm down stanley. This may simply be a cultural thing.
I have just returned from Greece, and over there, when they use the word "Christian", they automatically mean "Orthodox Christian". Hence, they would say "The Russians and the Serbs are Christians and the Italians are Catholics."
So are Italian Catholics, French Roman Catholics, Ruthenian Eastern Catholics, Ukranian Eastern Catholics, Christian or not?
It depends who you ask. If you asked an Orthodox Christian in Greece, they would say "no", not because they intend to be rude, but because they identify themselves as "Christians", so therefore, to them, only those in Communion with them can possibly be Christians. And this makes perfect ecclesiological sense- a Christian is a member of the Church, and you can't have more than One Church. The idea of "denominations" is completely foreign to Greeks- they don't even have a word for it. They simply identify as "Christians", and therefore, a "Roman Catholic" or an "Anglican" is someone with a different religion to the Christians.

That bothers me. Although, to be fair, it also bothers me that Catholic Answers promotes the idea that Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism are different religions.
Why should it bother you that the idea of different denominations is foreign to a Christian country?

That part doesn't bother me. Just the part where 'a "Roman Catholic" or an "Anglican" is someone with a different religion to the Christians'.
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« Reply #56 on: May 29, 2011, 11:45:02 PM »

What, is there a strong push to not step on the toes of the Papists?

Catholic doctrine is wrong.
They view Christ in terms of "The Atonement".

Meaning that the Christ that they know, is fundamentally different than the Christ that the True Church knows.

They have no concept of Theosis.

Even if they weren't separated from the grace of the True Church (and they are), they STILL would hold nothing any more Salvific than say, the Mormon church. (Which is nothing Salvific at all, mind you)

It's not a matter of hurt feelings or politeness, it's just the truth.
You'll find many that try to disagree.
You'll find many on the wrong side of every discussion.
You found many well-intentioned Orthodox on the wrong side of the Iconoclastic controversy, and they suddenly found themselves heretics and cut off from Grace.

I'm sorry, but that's the way it is.

Get over it, renounce Catholicism and become Orthodox.
Salvation is here. The Vatican can do nothing for you.


This sudden push for "Union" is simply a fulfillment of prophesy, I don't expect it to go away.
Elder Joseph said flat out that the Spirit of Antichrist is pushing for a False Union in preparation for his coming.
The True Church will probably be underground by the time my children are grown.
Sad. But those days are upon us.
Yeah, well what if I believe your religion is the religion of the antichrist? Prove me wrong.
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« Reply #57 on: May 29, 2011, 11:48:45 PM »

Hmm, I wonder who is scarier, the faithless Jews or the treacherous Papists?

That's a rather weird twist to the conversation. And not one that I care for.
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« Reply #58 on: May 29, 2011, 11:52:40 PM »

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« Reply #59 on: May 29, 2011, 11:56:27 PM »

Catholic doctrine is wrong.
They view Christ in terms of "The Atonement".
I don't see this point. I thought that Jesus’ sacrifice was made to God His Father, since  according to Scripture: “Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God” (Ephesians 5:2).
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« Reply #60 on: May 29, 2011, 11:58:23 PM »

Hmm, I wonder who is scarier, the faithless Jews or the treacherous Papists?

That's a rather weird twist to the conversation. And not one that I care for.

I forgot to add a wink.

Here it is:  Wink
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« Reply #61 on: May 30, 2011, 12:00:16 AM »

Hmm, I wonder who is scarier, the faithless Jews or the treacherous Papists?

That's a rather weird twist to the conversation. And not one that I care for.

I forgot to add a wink.

Here it is:  Wink

Still ...
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« Reply #62 on: May 30, 2011, 12:00:34 AM »

Catholic doctrine is wrong.
They view Christ in terms of "The Atonement".
I don't see this point. I thought that Jesus’ sacrifice was made to God His Father, since  according to Scripture: “Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God” (Ephesians 5:2).



You lot view Christ as coming to take the hit for mankind's sin, kind of like a "whipping boy".

This is wrong. Very wrong.
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« Reply #63 on: May 30, 2011, 12:01:03 AM »

So according to Orthodox beleif, Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics are not Christian? Is this just your own crackpot opinion, or how many Orthodox actually believe such?
Calm down stanley. This may simply be a cultural thing.
I have just returned from Greece, and over there, when they use the word "Christian", they automatically mean "Orthodox Christian". Hence, they would say "The Russians and the Serbs are Christians and the Italians are Catholics."
So are Italian Catholics, French Roman Catholics, Ruthenian Eastern Catholics, Ukranian Eastern Catholics, Christian or not?
It depends who you ask. If you asked an Orthodox Christian in Greece, they would say "no", not because they intend to be rude, but because they identify themselves as "Christians", so therefore, to them, only those in Communion with them can possibly be Christians. And this makes perfect ecclesiological sense- a Christian is a member of the Church, and you can't have more than One Church. The idea of "denominations" is completely foreign to Greeks- they don't even have a word for it. They simply identify as "Christians", and therefore, a "Roman Catholic" or an "Anglican" is someone with a different religion to the Christians.

That bothers me. Although, to be fair, it also bothers me that Catholic Answers promotes the idea that Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism are different religions.
Why should it bother you that the idea of different denominations is foreign to a Christian country?

That part doesn't bother me. Just the part where 'a "Roman Catholic" or an "Anglican" is someone with a different religion to the Christians'.
I see. I guess we can't judge different cultures from our respective cultural points of view though. To their mindset, one cannot be a Christian without being a member of the Church. There is no such thing as an "unchurched Christian" in the mindset of the Orthodox Christians in Greece, and the Symbol of Faith (Creed) states that there is only one Church ergo a Christian is someone in Communion with them.
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« Reply #64 on: May 30, 2011, 12:02:49 AM »

What, is there a strong push to not step on the toes of the Papists?

Catholic doctrine is wrong.
They view Christ in terms of "The Atonement".

Meaning that the Christ that they know, is fundamentally different than the Christ that the True Church knows.

They have no concept of Theosis.

Even if they weren't separated from the grace of the True Church (and they are), they STILL would hold nothing any more Salvific than say, the Mormon church. (Which is nothing Salvific at all, mind you)

It's not a matter of hurt feelings or politeness, it's just the truth.
You'll find many that try to disagree.
You'll find many on the wrong side of every discussion.
You found many well-intentioned Orthodox on the wrong side of the Iconoclastic controversy, and they suddenly found themselves heretics and cut off from Grace.

I'm sorry, but that's the way it is.

Get over it, renounce Catholicism and become Orthodox.
Salvation is here. The Vatican can do nothing for you.


This sudden push for "Union" is simply a fulfillment of prophesy, I don't expect it to go away.
Elder Joseph said flat out that the Spirit of Antichrist is pushing for a False Union in preparation for his coming.
The True Church will probably be underground by the time my children are grown.
Sad. But those days are upon us.
Yeah, well what if I believe your religion is the religion of the antichrist? Prove me wrong.

Why would I?
You think it matters to the Orthodox Church what the Vatican, Mecca, Salt Lake City, or anyone else thinks?
We've been here for 2000 years. We'll be there an eternity into eternity.

We win the argument by sheer staying power in the end.
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« Reply #65 on: May 30, 2011, 12:06:37 AM »

So according to Orthodox beleif, Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics are not Christian? Is this just your own crackpot opinion, or how many Orthodox actually believe such?
Calm down stanley. This may simply be a cultural thing.
I have just returned from Greece, and over there, when they use the word "Christian", they automatically mean "Orthodox Christian". Hence, they would say "The Russians and the Serbs are Christians and the Italians are Catholics."
So are Italian Catholics, French Roman Catholics, Ruthenian Eastern Catholics, Ukranian Eastern Catholics, Christian or not?
It depends who you ask. If you asked an Orthodox Christian in Greece, they would say "no", not because they intend to be rude, but because they identify themselves as "Christians", so therefore, to them, only those in Communion with them can possibly be Christians. And this makes perfect ecclesiological sense- a Christian is a member of the Church, and you can't have more than One Church. The idea of "denominations" is completely foreign to Greeks- they don't even have a word for it. They simply identify as "Christians", and therefore, a "Roman Catholic" or an "Anglican" is someone with a different religion to the Christians.

That bothers me. Although, to be fair, it also bothers me that Catholic Answers promotes the idea that Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism are different religions.
Why should it bother you that the idea of different denominations is foreign to a Christian country?

That part doesn't bother me. Just the part where 'a "Roman Catholic" or an "Anglican" is someone with a different religion to the Christians'.


There is no allowance for "different takes on Truth" in Orthodoxy.
There is Truth. There is everything else.
Alter Truth, even a bit, and it ceases to be Truth.

We've got fundamentally different views on Christ and Salvation.

Either you are right or we are, we cannot both be.
That's not how this is played.

In Byzantine days, if you changed doctrine and taught it, they'd throw you into a fire (As per The Alexiad).
That's how serious it was.

It's just as serious today.


I'm not advocating throwing anyone into a fire, mind you, but I'm not going to back down on Orthodox Truth in order to satiate the feelings of someone who otherwise might actually start asking questions about their faith and not go on thinking everything is ok.
Because it's not. Salvation is on the line.
You only get one soul.
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« Reply #66 on: May 30, 2011, 12:08:37 AM »

Fifty-four posts today. Wow.

So, how hard are you laughing, Kyle, or are you just bored?

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #67 on: May 30, 2011, 12:13:12 AM »

Hmm, I wonder who is scarier, the faithless Jews or the treacherous Papists?

That's a rather weird twist to the conversation. And not one that I care for.

I forgot to add a wink.

Here it is:  Wink

Still ...

The idea of the Catholic Church and its Pope as some sort of shadowy, sinister, malevolent force is believed in certain corners. I find it amusing, since we never could subvert and destroy Orthodoxy, even if we tried. We're too toothless to be the anti-Christ, I think.

Of course, I suppose if we were in league with the Jews, we could be REALLY dangerous.   Wink

I am reminded of a post by our old friend Nektarios, who doesn't seem to be around OC.net anymore:

Quote
My time spent on Mt. Athos was very eye opening as to the true nature of the self proclaimed Orthodox Elder crowd and their lay gruppies.  My personal favorite was the Athonite monk who told me he had changed monasteries because of the open courtyard of his old one - the Jews were able to watch him from their satellites.  You can't blame someone for taking them with a grain of salt. 

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13616.msg192581.html#msg192581


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« Reply #68 on: May 30, 2011, 12:17:24 AM »

To their mindset, one cannot be a Christian without being a member of the Church. There is no such thing as an "unchurched Christian" in the mindset of the Orthodox Christians in Greece, and the Symbol of Faith (Creed) states that there is only one Church ergo a Christian is someone in Communion with them.

Certainly there is such a thing---Orthodox Christians in Greece. (drum beat)  Wink
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« Reply #69 on: May 30, 2011, 12:24:04 AM »



You lot view Christ as coming to take the hit for mankind's sin, kind of like a "whipping boy".

This is wrong. Very wrong.
I thought that the teaching was according to Scripture: “Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God” (Ephesians 5:2).
How should we view this Scriptural teaching?
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« Reply #70 on: May 30, 2011, 12:26:16 AM »

Hmm, I wonder who is scarier, the faithless Jews or the treacherous Papists?

That's a rather weird twist to the conversation. And not one that I care for.

I forgot to add a wink.

Here it is:  Wink

Still ...

The idea of the Catholic Church and its Pope as some sort of shadowy, sinister, malevolent force is believed in certain corners. I find it amusing, since we never could subvert and destroy Orthodoxy, even if we tried. We're too toothless to be the anti-Christ, I think.

Of course, I suppose if we were in league with the Jews, we could be REALLY dangerous.   Wink

I am reminded of a post by our old friend Nektarios, who doesn't seem to be around OC.net anymore:

Quote
My time spent on Mt. Athos was very eye opening as to the true nature of the self proclaimed Orthodox Elder crowd and their lay gruppies.  My personal favorite was the Athonite monk who told me he had changed monasteries because of the open courtyard of his old one - the Jews were able to watch him from their satellites.  You can't blame someone for taking them with a grain of salt. 

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13616.msg192581.html#msg192581





I don't think you're a shadowy, evil force.
I just think..er..know..you lot are wrong.

And expansionist.


And any..any..any..union with the Perfect, One, True Church, with a rotting, fracturing, thousand years worth of decomposed flesh covered, dying Catholic church plays right into the hands of the Antichrist, and signals the beginning of the endtimes.

You lot are losing Europe like a balding man loses hair, even the Latin Americans are having a hard time finding a reason to attend church with all the kiddie-fiddling going on.

You need us.
And you cant have us.
Not without everyone involved answering for it on judgment.
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« Reply #71 on: May 30, 2011, 12:28:12 AM »

They don't really need you, (Name removed.), as they already outnumber you in population by four or five to one.  Roll Eyes

Since when do you speak for all of Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #72 on: May 30, 2011, 12:30:45 AM »



You lot view Christ as coming to take the hit for mankind's sin, kind of like a "whipping boy".

This is wrong. Very wrong.
I thought that the teaching was according to Scripture: “Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God” (Ephesians 5:2).
How should we view this Scriptural teaching?


"God became man, so that man might become god"
-St. Athanasius the Great.

Christ became man, suffered, died, freed those in the tomb, rose again, defeating death..
..that by joining with Christ in Communion, we might partake of the same suffering, the same death, and the same resurrection.

He defeated death, then offered his essence to us, that we might do the same.

There's a beautiful icon of Christ, with the Cross laying down forming a bridge over Hades, with Christ guiding souls across.


It's got nothing to do with "atonement" or him "taking the hit" for mankind.
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« Reply #73 on: May 30, 2011, 12:31:12 AM »

To their mindset, one cannot be a Christian without being a member of the Church.
So the Ukranian Greek Eastern Catholics are not Christians?
BTW, they are not Catholics either, according to what I read here.
So let me see if I have this correct: it is only the Eastern Orthodox who are Christians and Catholics?
Do you also exclude the Armenian Orthodox or the Oriental Orthodox and say they are not Christians also?  
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« Reply #74 on: May 30, 2011, 12:34:00 AM »

They don't really need you, (Name removed.) as they already outnumber you in population by four or five to one.  Roll Eyes

Since when do you speak for all of Orthodoxy?

Is this supposed to be directed at me?
Given that my name is Ian, Donna?, I'm not sure to whom you are referring.
Nice try.

(Not quite true, I do know who you are referring to. Not me however. Still, nice try)
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« Reply #75 on: May 30, 2011, 12:36:15 AM »

They don't really need you, Kyle, as they already outnumber you in population by four or five to one.  Roll Eyes

Since when do you speak for all of Orthodoxy?
Not that I agree with him, of course, but there is a certain amount of truth to the statement that Roman Catholics need E. Orthodoxy, in the sense that there is a certain complementarity between the Eastern and western modes of thought.
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« Reply #76 on: May 30, 2011, 12:39:20 AM »

You still didn't answer.

Since when do you speak for all of Orthodoxy?

Is that the only card you've got- say snarky things about Roman Catholics?

You're not exactly drawing converts to your faith if all you've got to offer is being anti- someone else.

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« Reply #77 on: May 30, 2011, 12:45:19 AM »

To their mindset, one cannot be a Christian without being a member of the Church.
So the Ukranian Greek Eastern Catholics are not Christians?
BTW, they are not Catholics either, according to what I read here.
So let me see if I have this correct: it is only the Eastern Orthodox who are Christians and Catholics?
Do you also exclude the Armenian Orthodox or the Oriental Orthodox and say they are not Christians also?  
See, stan, we were talking about different cultural viewpoints, but you're not interested in that- you just want an argument. Or more correctly, an excuse to feel victimized.
You bore me.
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« Reply #78 on: May 30, 2011, 12:46:02 AM »

What, is there a strong push to not step on the toes of the Papists

You're a Papist.
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« Reply #79 on: May 30, 2011, 12:47:56 AM »

They don't really need you, Kyle, as they already outnumber you in population by four or five to one.  Roll Eyes

Since when do you speak for all of Orthodoxy?

Is this supposed to be directed at me?
Given that my name is Ian, Donna?, I'm not sure to whom you are referring.
Nice try.

(Not quite true, I do know who you are referring to. Not me however. Still, nice try)

So someone else, named (Name removed.), is using your email address (Link with personal information removed.)? You being identity-thefted bro? police
 Posting personal information about other users without their permission is forbidden by the forum rules. You are given a 40-day-long moderation. If you disagree you can appeal to Veniamin - MK.
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« Reply #80 on: May 30, 2011, 12:52:07 AM »

See, stan, we were talking about different cultural viewpoints, but you're not interested in that- you just want an argument. Or more correctly, an excuse to feel victimized.
You bore me.

Some Protestants must have the same cultural issues, because I've heard quite a number of Protestants (or "non-denominationals") ask questions like "Are you Christian or Catholic," meaning to put Catholics into a whole other category from themselves.
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« Reply #81 on: May 30, 2011, 12:54:02 AM »

You still didn't answer.

Since when do you speak for all of Orthodoxy?

Is that the only card you've got- say snarky things about Roman Catholics?

You're not exactly drawing converts to your faith if all you've got to offer is being anti- someone else.




Fine. I'll let the Saints and Church speak.

Saint Polycarp of Smyrna : “Anyone who says contrary to what has been decreed - even if he is trustworthy, even if he fasts, even if he lives in virginity, even if he performs signs and prophesizes, let him appear to you as a wolf in a sheep's hide, aspiring to the corruption of the sheep.”

Saint John the Chrysostom, in interpreting the Apostle Paul's words “If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be anathema” , observes that the Apostle “did not say if they should proclaim something contrary or if they should overturn everything, but that even if they should preach even the smallest thing that has not been delivered to you, even if they should simply provoke it, let them be anathema.”


Ah, look at this, found it on a nice long write up against Ecuminism:
We proclaim that Roman Catholicism is a womb of heresies and fallacies. The teaching of the “Filioque” - that is, the procession of the Holy Spirit AND from the Son - is contrary to everything that Christ Himself taught about the Holy Spirit. The entire chorus of Fathers, both in Synods and individually, regard Roman Catholicism as a heresy because apart from the Filioque, it produced a host of other fallacies, such as the primacy and the infallibility of the Pope, the unleavened bread (host), the fires of Purgatory, the immaculate conception of the Theotokos, created Grace, the purchasing of absolution (indulgences)... it has altered nearly all of the teaching and the practice pertaining to Baptism, Chrismation, the Divine Eucharist and the other Sacraments, and has converted the Church to a secular State.

Contemporary Roman Catholicism has deviated even further than the medieval Latins from the teaching of the Church, to the extent that it no longer comprises a continuance of the ancient Church of the West.  It has introduced a swarm of new exaggerations in its “Mariology,” such as the teaching that the Theotokos is a parallel redeemer (co-redemptrix) of the human race. It has reinforced the “Charismatic Movement” of Pentecostal (supposedly Spirit-centered) groups. It has adopted eastern religious practices and methods of prayer and meditation. It has introduced additional innovations into Divine worship, such as dances and musical instruments. It has shortened and essentially ruined the Divine Liturgy. With respect to Ecumenism it has set down the bases for a unification of all religions (panthriskeia) with its Second Vatican Council, by recognizing “spiritual life” in the people of other religions. Dogmatic minimalism has led it to a diminishing of moral requirements, on account of the bond between dogma and morality, resulting in the moral failures of leading clergymen and an increase in moral deviations such as homosexuality and pedophilia among clergymen.[13] By continuing to support “Uniatism” - that caricature of Orthodoxy with which it victimizes and proselytizes faithful - the Vatican is sabotaging the dialogue and is contradicting its supposedly sincere intentions for union.

Generally speaking, after the Second Vatican Council there has been a radical change in Catholicism and a turn towards Protestantism, and even an adoption of various “spiritual” movements of the “New Age.”  

According to Saint Simeon of Thessaloniki, the Mystagogue, “Papism” caused more damage to the Church than all the heresies and schisms combined. We Orthodox have communion with the pre-Schism Popes and we commemorate many Popes as Saints. However, the post-Schism popes have all taught heresy; they have ceased to be successors to the throne of Rome; they no longer have Apostolic succession, because they no longer have the faith of the Apostles and the Fathers. It is for this reason that, as St. Symeon states, with each such pope, “not only do we have no communion, but we also call him a heretic.” On account of their blasphemy against the Holy Spirit with their teaching of the Filioque, they forfeited the presence of the Holy Spirit and therefore everything of theirs is deprived of Grace.[14] Not one of their Mysteries (Sacraments) is valid, according to Saint Simeon: “Therefore the innovators are blaspheming and are far away from the Spirit, by blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, hence everything of theirs is graceless, inasmuch as they have violated and have demoted the Grace of the Spirit... which is why the Holy Spirit is not among them, and there is nothing spiritual in them, as everything of theirs is new and altered and contrary to Divine tradition.”



Wow.
St. Symeon hit it on the head there.
It is for this reason that, as St. Symeon states, with each such pope, “not only do we have no communion, but we also call him a heretic. On account of their blasphemy against the Holy Spirit with their teaching of the Filioque, they forfeited the presence of the Holy Spirit and therefore everything of theirs is deprived of Grace."


That's Saint Symeon. He's a Saint. He does speak for "all of Orthodoxy".

Thank you, and Goodnight.
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« Reply #82 on: May 30, 2011, 12:55:56 AM »

They don't really need you, (Name removed.), as they already outnumber you in population by four or five to one.  Roll Eyes

Since when do you speak for all of Orthodoxy?

Is this supposed to be directed at me?
Given that my name is Ian, Donna?, I'm not sure to whom you are referring.
Nice try.

(Not quite true, I do know who you are referring to. Not me however. Still, nice try)

So someone else, named (Name removed.), is using your email address (Link removed.)? You being identity-thefted bro? police


No, I'm protecting my brothers username.
You make it regular practice to drop real life names on internet forums without the permission of the person in question?
I'm quite sure that's a violation of terms somewhere.
I've notified the moderators. They'll take care of it.

Now when you get done playing Sherlock, attend to my last post.
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« Reply #83 on: May 30, 2011, 12:57:42 AM »

What is it about young converts? I'm sorry, but do some of them think they have to prove something? "I'll read everything there is to read (or just act like it), and then go shove it in someone else's face"?

 Huh

The only thing he's doing is pushing people away.
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« Reply #84 on: May 30, 2011, 01:01:36 AM »

See, stan, we were talking about different cultural viewpoints, but you're not interested in that- you just want an argument. Or more correctly, an excuse to feel victimized.
You bore me.

Some Protestants must have the same cultural issues, because I've heard quite a number of Protestants (or "non-denominationals") ask questions like "Are you Christian or Catholic," meaning to put Catholics into a whole other category from themselves.
Actually, that is also a cultural issue, and as I was trying to point out, we are looking at it from a different viewpoint.
To such Protestants (especially the "Mega-Church" type converts)- that is their only experience of Christianity, so they don't recognise Roman Catholics as "Christians" (because they look so different to what they understand a Christian to be). Its not that they intend to be "rude" or derogatory.
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« Reply #85 on: May 30, 2011, 01:03:07 AM »

What is it about young converts? I'm sorry, but do some of them think they have to prove something? "I'll read everything there is to read (or just act like it), and then go shove it in someone else's face"?

 Huh

The only thing he's doing is pushing people away.

What is that line about salt losing it's saltiness, and becoming worthless or something like that?
Yeah..I read that somewhere.

What are you people afraid of?
When were you planning on sharing the words of Saints like :
St. Symeon states, of the pope, “not only do we have no communion, but we also call him a heretic. On account of their blasphemy against the Holy Spirit with their teaching of the Filioque, they forfeited the presence of the Holy Spirit and therefore everything of theirs is deprived of Grace."

Was it part of the plan?
Get in close, then drop it on them over coffee?
People NEED to hear this stuff.
As I said, it's not a matter of feelings.
It's a matter of Truth.

Going on like it's all ok, that's not just wrong, that's tragic.
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« Reply #86 on: May 30, 2011, 01:04:08 AM »

Boring...   Roll Eyes

So, do you think he'll get to a hundred posts on his first day?
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« Reply #87 on: May 30, 2011, 01:09:41 AM »

And any..any..any..union with the Perfect, One, True Church, with a rotting, fracturing, thousand years worth of decomposed flesh covered, dying Catholic church plays right into the hands of the Antichrist, and signals the beginning of the endtimes.
The "endtimes" must have begun in 1439 then.
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« Reply #88 on: May 30, 2011, 01:10:42 AM »



You lot view Christ as coming to take the hit for mankind's sin, kind of like a "whipping boy".

This is wrong. Very wrong.
I thought that the teaching was according to Scripture: “Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God” (Ephesians 5:2).
How should we view this Scriptural teaching?


"God became man, so that man might become god"
-St. Athanasius the Great.

Christ became man, suffered, died, freed those in the tomb, rose again, defeating death..
..that by joining with Christ in Communion, we might partake of the same suffering, the same death, and the same resurrection.

He defeated death, then offered his essence to us, that we might do the same.

There's a beautiful icon of Christ, with the Cross laying down forming a bridge over Hades, with Christ guiding souls across.


It's got nothing to do with "atonement" or him "taking the hit" for mankind.

"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."
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« Reply #89 on: May 30, 2011, 01:17:07 AM »

And any..any..any..union with the Perfect, One, True Church, with a rotting, fracturing, thousand years worth of decomposed flesh covered, dying Catholic church plays right into the hands of the Antichrist, and signals the beginning of the endtimes.
The "endtimes" must have begun in 1439 then.


No, but Constantinople fell and Hagia Sophia was desecrated as punishment.
The next one will be much, much worse.
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« Reply #90 on: May 30, 2011, 01:19:19 AM »

What is it about young converts? I'm sorry, but do some of them think they have to prove something? "I'll read everything there is to read (or just act like it), and then go shove it in someone else's face"?

 Huh

The only thing he's doing is pushing people away.

What is that line about salt losing it's saltiness, and becoming worthless or something like that?
Yeah..I read that somewhere.

What are you people afraid of?
When were you planning on sharing the words of Saints like :
St. Symeon states, of the pope, “not only do we have no communion, but we also call him a heretic. On account of their blasphemy against the Holy Spirit with their teaching of the Filioque, they forfeited the presence of the Holy Spirit and therefore everything of theirs is deprived of Grace."

Was it part of the plan?
Get in close, then drop it on them over coffee?
People NEED to hear this stuff.
As I said, it's not a matter of feelings.
It's a matter of Truth.

Going on like it's all ok, that's not just wrong, that's tragic.

I hope, in the midst of your continuing obsession with Catholicism, you find a little time to do some Greek Orthodoxy. You are Greek Orthodox, I understand? If the anti-Christ is imminent as you think, then it might best to work on that rather than spend your time attacking filthy, stinking Romish evils.
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« Reply #91 on: May 30, 2011, 01:20:03 AM »



You lot view Christ as coming to take the hit for mankind's sin, kind of like a "whipping boy".

This is wrong. Very wrong.
I thought that the teaching was according to Scripture: “Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God” (Ephesians 5:2).
How should we view this Scriptural teaching?


"God became man, so that man might become god"
-St. Athanasius the Great.

Christ became man, suffered, died, freed those in the tomb, rose again, defeating death..
..that by joining with Christ in Communion, we might partake of the same suffering, the same death, and the same resurrection.

He defeated death, then offered his essence to us, that we might do the same.

There's a beautiful icon of Christ, with the Cross laying down forming a bridge over Hades, with Christ guiding souls across.


It's got nothing to do with "atonement" or him "taking the hit" for mankind.

"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."

And?
Isaiah. It's a good book. What's your point?
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« Reply #92 on: May 30, 2011, 01:21:15 AM »

What is it about young converts? I'm sorry, but do some of them think they have to prove something? "I'll read everything there is to read (or just act like it), and then go shove it in someone else's face"?

 Huh

The only thing he's doing is pushing people away.

What is that line about salt losing it's saltiness, and becoming worthless or something like that?
Yeah..I read that somewhere.

What are you people afraid of?
When were you planning on sharing the words of Saints like :
St. Symeon states, of the pope, “not only do we have no communion, but we also call him a heretic. On account of their blasphemy against the Holy Spirit with their teaching of the Filioque, they forfeited the presence of the Holy Spirit and therefore everything of theirs is deprived of Grace."

Was it part of the plan?
Get in close, then drop it on them over coffee?
People NEED to hear this stuff.
As I said, it's not a matter of feelings.
It's a matter of Truth.

Going on like it's all ok, that's not just wrong, that's tragic.

I hope, in the midst of your continuing obsession with Catholicism, you find a little time to do some Greek Orthodoxy. You are Greek Orthodox, I understand? If the anti-Christ is imminent as you think, then it might best to work on that rather than spend your time attacking filthy, stinking Romish evils.

I'm answering this thread, while keeping up with two others, another on another forum, watching a Youtube video and playing Risk online in the background.
You're not THAT important.
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« Reply #93 on: May 30, 2011, 01:24:51 AM »



I'm answering this thread, while keeping up with two others, another on another forum, watching a Youtube video and playing Risk online in the background.
You're not THAT important.

Glad to hear it.  Smiley Knock yourself out.
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« Reply #94 on: May 30, 2011, 01:25:33 AM »

I think probably what we should do is make sure to call each other heretics and schismatics as much as possible, make sure to emphasize that we're the only ones who know the truth, and generally act like bad language removed - MK towards one another.

That seems like the best approach.
Scurrilous language won't be tolerated here. 7-day-long warning - Michał Kalina.
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« Reply #95 on: May 30, 2011, 01:27:05 AM »

I think probably what we should do is make sure to call each other heretics and schismatics as much as possible, make sure to emphasize that we're the only ones who know the truth, and generally act like bad language removed - MK towards one another.

That seems like the best approach.


I've not been a bad language removed - MK to anyone.

I'm just not going to "soften" the words of the Saints for the sake of the Catholics here.

Why anyone would do such a disservice to anyone is beyond me.
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« Reply #96 on: May 30, 2011, 01:28:58 AM »

I think probably what we should do is make sure to call each other heretics and schismatics as much as possible, make sure to emphasize that we're the only ones who know the truth, and generally act like bad language removed - MK towards one another.

That seems like the best approach.

Sure!   Wink Cheesy

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« Reply #97 on: May 30, 2011, 01:29:16 AM »

I think probably what we should do is make sure to call each other heretics and schismatics as much as possible, make sure to emphasize that we're the only ones who know the truth, and generally act like bad language removed - MK towards one another.

That seems like the best approach.


I've not been a bad language removed - MK to anyone.

I'm just not going to "soften" the words of the Saints for the sake of the Catholics here.

Why anyone would do such a disservice to anyone is beyond me.

Indeed. In fact, you are doing me a great service---by confirming my desire to remain a Catholic. Thanks, Kyle!  Kiss
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« Reply #98 on: May 30, 2011, 01:29:48 AM »

And any..any..any..union with the Perfect, One, True Church, with a rotting, fracturing, thousand years worth of decomposed flesh covered, dying Catholic church plays right into the hands of the Antichrist, and signals the beginning of the endtimes.
The "endtimes" must have begun in 1439 then.


No, but Constantinople fell and Hagia Sophia was desecrated as punishment.
The next one will be much, much worse.
Goodness me. You must have quite a charism to know the Divine judgements with such certitude.  Smiley
Seriously though, I can see from your posts that you have a sharp mind. It just worries me that your current zeal is a bit misdirected, and that when you finally realise this, you will be burnt out. I can't tell you how to live your life. The only thing I can offer you is to allow you to make the same mistakes I did and not say 'I told you so'. Smiley
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« Reply #99 on: May 30, 2011, 01:30:18 AM »

I think probably what we should do is make sure to call each other heretics and schismatics as much as possible, make sure to emphasize that we're the only ones who know the truth, and generally act like bad language removed - MK towards one another.

That seems like the best approach.


I've not been a bad language removed - MK to anyone.

I'm just not going to "soften" the words of the Saints for the sake of the Catholics here.

Why anyone would do such a disservice to anyone is beyond me.

Indeed. In fact, you are doing me a great service---by confirming my desire to remain a Catholic!  Kiss

You make the choice, you answer for it.
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« Reply #100 on: May 30, 2011, 01:31:05 AM »

And any..any..any..union with the Perfect, One, True Church, with a rotting, fracturing, thousand years worth of decomposed flesh covered, dying Catholic church plays right into the hands of the Antichrist, and signals the beginning of the endtimes.
The "endtimes" must have begun in 1439 then.


No, but Constantinople fell and Hagia Sophia was desecrated as punishment.
The next one will be much, much worse.
Goodness me. You must have quite a charism to know the Divine judgements with such certitude.  Smiley
Seriously though, I can see from your posts that you have a sharp mind. It just worries me that your current zeal is a bit misdirected, and that when you finally realise this, you will be burnt out. I can't tell you how to live your life. The only thing I can offer you is to allow you to make the same mistakes I did and not say 'I told you so'. Smiley


Every Greek child knows why Constantinople fell, it's no secret.
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« Reply #101 on: May 30, 2011, 01:32:46 AM »

And any..any..any..union with the Perfect, One, True Church, with a rotting, fracturing, thousand years worth of decomposed flesh covered, dying Catholic church plays right into the hands of the Antichrist, and signals the beginning of the endtimes.
The "endtimes" must have begun in 1439 then.


No, but Constantinople fell and Hagia Sophia was desecrated as punishment.
The next one will be much, much worse.
Goodness me. You must have quite a charism to know the Divine judgements with such certitude.  Smiley
Seriously though, I can see from your posts that you have a sharp mind. It just worries me that your current zeal is a bit misdirected, and that when you finally realise this, you will be burnt out. I can't tell you how to live your life. The only thing I can offer you is to allow you to make the same mistakes I did and not say 'I told you so'. Smiley


Every Greek child knows why Constantinople fell, it's no secret.
Yes. Constantinople fell because such was the Will of God. But suffering is not necessarily a punishment, or do you now think that Christ was crucified as a punishment? Wink
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« Reply #102 on: May 30, 2011, 01:34:51 AM »

Yes. Constantinople fell because such was the Will of God. But suffering is not necessarily a punishment, or do you now think that Christ was crucified as a punishment? Wink

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

George. Seriously. Coffee-spurtingly funny.
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« Reply #103 on: May 30, 2011, 01:39:46 AM »

And any..any..any..union with the Perfect, One, True Church, with a rotting, fracturing, thousand years worth of decomposed flesh covered, dying Catholic church plays right into the hands of the Antichrist, and signals the beginning of the endtimes.
The "endtimes" must have begun in 1439 then.


No, but Constantinople fell and Hagia Sophia was desecrated as punishment.
The next one will be much, much worse.
Goodness me. You must have quite a charism to know the Divine judgements with such certitude.  Smiley
Seriously though, I can see from your posts that you have a sharp mind. It just worries me that your current zeal is a bit misdirected, and that when you finally realise this, you will be burnt out. I can't tell you how to live your life. The only thing I can offer you is to allow you to make the same mistakes I did and not say 'I told you so'. Smiley


Every Greek child knows why Constantinople fell, it's no secret.
Yes. Constantinople fell because such was the Will of God. But suffering is not necessarily a punishment, or do you now think that Christ was crucified as a punishment? Wink


No, but that's different than God withdrawing his protection from the holiest city on Earth.
When the Icon of the Theotokos (Can't remember which one) ascended into Heaven on the Eve of the city falling, it was a sign that God had withdrawn his protection.

Any monk on Athos can tell you why Constantinople fell.

It was because of the Church's betrayal of what had been entrusted to it with the false union.


Come on people, is there not a Greek or Serb among you?
I've had this told to me by elderly Greek ladies hundreds of times..

Goodness..what kind of Orthodox forum is this?
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« Reply #104 on: May 30, 2011, 01:57:17 AM »

And any..any..any..union with the Perfect, One, True Church, with a rotting, fracturing, thousand years worth of decomposed flesh covered, dying Catholic church plays right into the hands of the Antichrist, and signals the beginning of the endtimes.
The "endtimes" must have begun in 1439 then.


No, but Constantinople fell and Hagia Sophia was desecrated as punishment.
The next one will be much, much worse.
Goodness me. You must have quite a charism to know the Divine judgements with such certitude.  Smiley
Seriously though, I can see from your posts that you have a sharp mind. It just worries me that your current zeal is a bit misdirected, and that when you finally realise this, you will be burnt out. I can't tell you how to live your life. The only thing I can offer you is to allow you to make the same mistakes I did and not say 'I told you so'. Smiley


Every Greek child knows why Constantinople fell, it's no secret.
Yes. Constantinople fell because such was the Will of God. But suffering is not necessarily a punishment, or do you now think that Christ was crucified as a punishment? Wink


No, but that's different than God withdrawing his protection from the holiest city on Earth.
When the Icon of the Theotokos (Can't remember which one) ascended into Heaven on the Eve of the city falling, it was a sign that God had withdrawn his protection.
Why is it different? What wrong did Job do that God withdrew His protection from him? Do you remember God's answer to Job's friends who suggested various "reasons" or "explanations" for Job's suffering. Have a read again.


Any monk on Athos can tell you why Constantinople fell.
It was because of the Church's betrayal of what had been entrusted to it with the false union.
My first Spiritual Father was Elder Paisius. My second was Elder Joseph of Vatopedi. I have spent three Great Fasts on the Holy Mountain. I have heard no such thing as you suggest.

Come on people, is there not a Greek or Serb among you?
I am Pontian. My Grandparents and Parents on both sides were refugees who fled the burning of Smyrna in rickety fishing boats on the night of September 13th 1922.

I've had this told to me by elderly Greek ladies hundreds of times..
Really? "Hundreds" of times?

Goodness..what kind of Orthodox forum is this?
It is a place where people can share ideas. But don't be surprised if everyone doesn't share yours. Smiley
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« Reply #105 on: May 30, 2011, 02:54:25 AM »

What, is there a strong push to not step on the toes of the Papists?

Catholic doctrine is wrong.
They view Christ in terms of "The Atonement".

Meaning that the Christ that they know, is fundamentally different than the Christ that the True Church knows.

They have no concept of Theosis.

Even if they weren't separated from the grace of the True Church (and they are), they STILL would hold nothing any more Salvific than say, the Mormon church. (Which is nothing Salvific at all, mind you)

It's not a matter of hurt feelings or politeness, it's just the truth.
You'll find many that try to disagree.
You'll find many on the wrong side of every discussion.
You found many well-intentioned Orthodox on the wrong side of the Iconoclastic controversy, and they suddenly found themselves heretics and cut off from Grace.

I'm sorry, but that's the way it is.

Get over it, renounce Catholicism and become Orthodox.
Salvation is here. The Vatican can do nothing for you.


This sudden push for "Union" is simply a fulfillment of prophesy, I don't expect it to go away.
Elder Joseph said flat out that the Spirit of Antichrist is pushing for a False Union in preparation for his coming.
The True Church will probably be underground by the time my children are grown.
Sad. But those days are upon us.



That is patently untrue. We have a very strongly developed concept of deification (the Latin word for the same thing).

As for the comment about Mormonism - well, I know some Mormons. Lots of Mormons, actually. I went to Sacrament Meeting today to bid farewell to one of my friends who is about to leave on his mission, and went to a party this evening to greet a friend who just returned and say farewell to yet another friend leaving on his mission.

Yeah, their religion is wrong - really wrong. But I know men who do have not valid baptisms who show forth evidence of the grace of Christ in their life. Is it sacramental grace? No. It's not. But I recognize the fruits of the Holy Spirit when I see it.

The reality is much more complex than your post reveals. Mormonism doesn't have sacramental grace - the Catholic Church does - in fact, it has the fullness of it. Obviously, we disagree on this point.

But even Mormonism teaches the Resurrection. They teach charity. They teach love of neighbor and of God. Yes, their concepts of the One True God are severely warped - but there are the vestiges of truth within it - and those vestigies, while I have no idea if they will effect the salvation of some of my close friends, they at least bring forth true spiritual and Christian fruit which can only be the work of the Holy Spirit.

So many sheep without, so many wolves within. The issue is so much more complex than you seem to believe.
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« Reply #106 on: May 30, 2011, 03:01:03 AM »

And any..any..any..union with the Perfect, One, True Church, with a rotting, fracturing, thousand years worth of decomposed flesh covered, dying Catholic church plays right into the hands of the Antichrist, and signals the beginning of the endtimes.
The "endtimes" must have begun in 1439 then.


No, but Constantinople fell and Hagia Sophia was desecrated as punishment.
The next one will be much, much worse.
Goodness me. You must have quite a charism to know the Divine judgements with such certitude.  Smiley
Seriously though, I can see from your posts that you have a sharp mind. It just worries me that your current zeal is a bit misdirected, and that when you finally realise this, you will be burnt out. I can't tell you how to live your life. The only thing I can offer you is to allow you to make the same mistakes I did and not say 'I told you so'. Smiley


Every Greek child knows why Constantinople fell, it's no secret.
Yes. Constantinople fell because such was the Will of God. But suffering is not necessarily a punishment, or do you now think that Christ was crucified as a punishment? Wink


No, but that's different than God withdrawing his protection from the holiest city on Earth.
When the Icon of the Theotokos (Can't remember which one) ascended into Heaven on the Eve of the city falling, it was a sign that God had withdrawn his protection.

Any monk on Athos can tell you why Constantinople fell.

It was because of the Church's betrayal of what had been entrusted to it with the false union.


Come on people, is there not a Greek or Serb among you?
I've had this told to me by elderly Greek ladies hundreds of times..

Goodness..what kind of Orthodox forum is this?

Then why didn't it rise again after your bishops pulled a 180 and began to follow Mark of Ephesus, the lone man who stood up against the "false" Union of Ferrara-Florence?

When union began to dissolve from the 9th Century to the 15th Century, why did God punish the Greek churches with domination under Islam and persecution but rewarded the Latin Church with salvation from Islam, allowing it to convert nearly the entirety of the New World to its form of Christianity, to push into Africa and India and Japan and China. It is because of this salvation from Islam that the number of Roman Catholics (yes, many are merely nominal - but the same is laid at the feet of the Orthodox) is four times that of the Orthodox and Greek Catholics combined.

Sorry, but this logic makes as much sense to me as Hurricane Katrina being a punishment for New Orleans' wickedness (it may have been - but I am not a prophet and cannot say) or a punishment for gay marriage or whatever.

As Job proves, sometimes, for the benefit of men who are holy and have not sinned, God sometimes withdraws his protection for other reasons.
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« Reply #107 on: May 30, 2011, 03:17:10 AM »

I am asking that people stop posting personal information from outside the forum about other posters.  Thank you.
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« Reply #108 on: May 30, 2011, 09:56:58 AM »



You lot view Christ as coming to take the hit for mankind's sin, kind of like a "whipping boy".

This is wrong. Very wrong.
I thought that the teaching was according to Scripture: “Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God” (Ephesians 5:2).
How should we view this Scriptural teaching?


"God became man, so that man might become god"
-St. Athanasius the Great.

Christ became man, suffered, died, freed those in the tomb, rose again, defeating death..
..that by joining with Christ in Communion, we might partake of the same suffering, the same death, and the same resurrection.

He defeated death, then offered his essence to us, that we might do the same.

There's a beautiful icon of Christ, with the Cross laying down forming a bridge over Hades, with Christ guiding souls across.


It's got nothing to do with "atonement" or him "taking the hit" for mankind.

"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."

Nice.
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« Reply #109 on: May 30, 2011, 10:01:44 AM »

Some Protestants must have the same cultural issues, because I've heard quite a number of Protestants (or "non-denominationals") ask questions like "Are you Christian or Catholic," meaning to put Catholics into a whole other category from themselves.

That sounds about right.

BTW, the Catholic Answers Forum has a sub-forum called "Non-Catholic Religions". (You know, like Hinduism, Protestantism, Mormonism, Islam, Orthodoxy, Buddhism, etc.)
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« Reply #110 on: May 30, 2011, 10:03:05 AM »

To their mindset, one cannot be a Christian without being a member of the Church.
So the Ukranian Greek Eastern Catholics are not Christians?
BTW, they are not Catholics either, according to what I read here.
So let me see if I have this correct: it is only the Eastern Orthodox who are Christians and Catholics?
Do you also exclude the Armenian Orthodox or the Oriental Orthodox and say they are not Christians also?  

That's a good question.
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« Reply #111 on: May 30, 2011, 10:11:32 AM »

Our Lord said that to beware of false prophets in sheeps' clothing and that not all who cry out 'Lord, Lord' shall enter into His Kingdom. I will put my trust in the long established teachings of the Church and not fall under the sway of this elder or that elder whose words may not have passed the test of time. Mere residence on one mountain or another, residing in this city or that city, or sitting upon one throne or another for that matter does not imbue one with Grace or necessarily the truth.
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« Reply #112 on: May 30, 2011, 10:18:31 AM »

Our Lord said that to beware of false prophets in sheeps' clothing and that not all who cry out 'Lord, Lord' shall enter into His Kingdom. I will put my trust in the long established teachings of the Church and not fall under the sway of this elder or that elder whose words may not have passed the test of time. Mere residence on one mountain or another, residing in this city or that city, or sitting upon one throne or another for that matter does not imbue one with Grace or necessarily the truth.

True. I need to pray, also.
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« Reply #113 on: May 30, 2011, 10:43:44 AM »

Quote
I'm answering this thread, while keeping up with two others, another on another forum, watching a Youtube video and playing Risk online in the background.
You're not THAT important.

Matthew 25:40

 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

Or in other words ALL men are THAT important.
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« Reply #114 on: May 30, 2011, 12:27:51 PM »

No, but that's different than God withdrawing his protection from the holiest city on Earth.
This is not true. Old Rome is fine.
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« Reply #115 on: May 30, 2011, 12:35:57 PM »

Quote
I'm answering this thread, while keeping up with two others, another on another forum, watching a Youtube video and playing Risk online in the background.
You're not THAT important.

Matthew 25:40

 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

Or in other words ALL men are THAT important.


Perfect  Smiley
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« Reply #116 on: May 30, 2011, 12:54:00 PM »



You lot view Christ as coming to take the hit for mankind's sin, kind of like a "whipping boy".

This is wrong. Very wrong.
I thought that the teaching was according to Scripture: “Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God” (Ephesians 5:2).
How should we view this Scriptural teaching?


"God became man, so that man might become god"
-St. Athanasius the Great.

Christ became man, suffered, died, freed those in the tomb, rose again, defeating death..
..that by joining with Christ in Communion, we might partake of the same suffering, the same death, and the same resurrection.

He defeated death, then offered his essence to us, that we might do the same.

There's a beautiful icon of Christ, with the Cross laying down forming a bridge over Hades, with Christ guiding souls across.


It's got nothing to do with "atonement" or him "taking the hit" for mankind.

"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."

Nice.
Which isn't atonement, no matter how much you insist it is.

"To whom was that Blood offered that was shed for us, and why was it shed? I mean the precious and famous Blood of our God and High Priest and Sacrifice. We were detained in bondage by the evil one, sold under sin, and received pleasure in exchange for wickedness. Now, since a ransom belongs only to him who holds in bondage, I ask, to who was this offered and to what cause? If to the evil one, fie upon the outrage! The robber receives ransom, not only from God, but a ransom which consists of God Himself, and as such has an illustrious payment for his tyranny, a payment for whose sake it would have been right for him to have left us alone all together.
But first I ask, how? For it was not by Him (God) that we were being oppressed. And next, on what principle did the Blood of His only Begotten Son delight the Father, Who would not receive even Isaac when he was being offered by his father, but changed the sacrifice, putting a ram in place of a human victim? Is it not evident that the Father accepts Him, but neither asked for Him nor demanded Him; but on account of the Incarnation, and because Humanity must be sanctified by the Humanity of God, that He might deliver us Himself and overcome the tryant, and draw us to Himself by the mediation of His Son, Who also arranged this to the honour of the Father, Whom it is manifest that He obeys in all things."

-St. Gregory the Theologian, Second Oration on Pascha
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« Reply #117 on: May 30, 2011, 12:59:04 PM »

"To whom was that Blood offered that was shed for us, and why was it shed? I mean the precious and famous Blood of our God and High Priest and Sacrifice. We were detained in bondage by the evil one, sold under sin, and received pleasure in exchange for wickedness. Now, since a ransom belongs only to him who holds in bondage, I ask, to who was this offered and to what cause? If to the evil one, fie upon the outrage! The robber receives ransom, not only from God, but a ransom which consists of God Himself, and as such has an illustrious payment for his tyranny, a payment for whose sake it would have been right for him to have left us alone all together.
But first I ask, how? For it was not by Him (God) that we were being oppressed. And next, on what principle did the Blood of His only Begotten Son delight the Father, Who would not receive even Isaac when he was being offered by his father, but changed the sacrifice, putting a ram in place of a human victim? Is it not evident that the Father accepts Him, but neither asked for Him nor demanded Him; but on account of the Incarnation, and because Humanity must be sanctified by the Humanity of God, that He might deliver us Himself and overcome the tryant, and draw us to Himself by the mediation of His Son, Who also arranged this to the honour of the Father, Whom it is manifest that He obeys in all things."

-St. Gregory the Theologian, Second Oration on Pascha
The Paschal sacrifice was atonement according to the second definition of atonement on Merriam Webster:

atonement - the reconciliation of God and humankind through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atonement


All of the Old Testament sacrifices, which were a foretaste of the ultimate sacrifice of the Lamb of God, were for the purpose of atoning for sins, so what makes you think that Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross was not for atonement of sins?
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« Reply #118 on: May 30, 2011, 01:13:01 PM »

"To whom was that Blood offered that was shed for us, and why was it shed? I mean the precious and famous Blood of our God and High Priest and Sacrifice. We were detained in bondage by the evil one, sold under sin, and received pleasure in exchange for wickedness. Now, since a ransom belongs only to him who holds in bondage, I ask, to who was this offered and to what cause? If to the evil one, fie upon the outrage! The robber receives ransom, not only from God, but a ransom which consists of God Himself, and as such has an illustrious payment for his tyranny, a payment for whose sake it would have been right for him to have left us alone all together.
But first I ask, how? For it was not by Him (God) that we were being oppressed. And next, on what principle did the Blood of His only Begotten Son delight the Father, Who would not receive even Isaac when he was being offered by his father, but changed the sacrifice, putting a ram in place of a human victim? Is it not evident that the Father accepts Him, but neither asked for Him nor demanded Him; but on account of the Incarnation, and because Humanity must be sanctified by the Humanity of God, that He might deliver us Himself and overcome the tryant, and draw us to Himself by the mediation of His Son, Who also arranged this to the honour of the Father, Whom it is manifest that He obeys in all things."

-St. Gregory the Theologian, Second Oration on Pascha
The Paschal sacrifice was atonement according to the second definition of atonement on Merriam Webster:

atonement - the reconciliation of God and humankind through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atonement


All of the Old Testament sacrifices, which were a foretaste of the ultimate sacrifice of the Lamb of God, were for the purpose of atoning for sins, so what makes you think that Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross was not for atonement of sins?
Because the Christ I worship established the New Covenant. If you guys wish to stay in the Old Covenant that's fine, but Orthodoxy will never hold that Christ offered a satisfaction for sin. Smiley
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« Reply #119 on: May 30, 2011, 01:14:00 PM »

Because the Christ I worship established the New Covenant. If you guys wish to stay in the Old Covenant that's fine, but Orthodoxy will never hold that Christ offered a satisfaction for sin. Smiley
So what do the Eastern Orthodox believe was the reason for Christ's death?

Also, I disagree with your insinuation that, just because we don't have the same understanding of Christ, that we somehow worship a different Christ. I disagree with Protestants but I would never say they worship a false Christ since they are not Catholic.
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« Reply #120 on: May 30, 2011, 01:15:21 PM »

"To whom was that Blood offered that was shed for us, and why was it shed? I mean the precious and famous Blood of our God and High Priest and Sacrifice. We were detained in bondage by the evil one, sold under sin, and received pleasure in exchange for wickedness. Now, since a ransom belongs only to him who holds in bondage, I ask, to who was this offered and to what cause? If to the evil one, fie upon the outrage! The robber receives ransom, not only from God, but a ransom which consists of God Himself, and as such has an illustrious payment for his tyranny, a payment for whose sake it would have been right for him to have left us alone all together.
But first I ask, how? For it was not by Him (God) that we were being oppressed. And next, on what principle did the Blood of His only Begotten Son delight the Father, Who would not receive even Isaac when he was being offered by his father, but changed the sacrifice, putting a ram in place of a human victim? Is it not evident that the Father accepts Him, but neither asked for Him nor demanded Him; but on account of the Incarnation, and because Humanity must be sanctified by the Humanity of God, that He might deliver us Himself and overcome the tryant, and draw us to Himself by the mediation of His Son, Who also arranged this to the honour of the Father, Whom it is manifest that He obeys in all things."

-St. Gregory the Theologian, Second Oration on Pascha
The Paschal sacrifice was atonement according to the second definition of atonement on Merriam Webster:

atonement - the reconciliation of God and humankind through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atonement


All of the Old Testament sacrifices, which were a foretaste of the ultimate sacrifice of the Lamb of God, were for the purpose of atoning for sins, so what makes you think that Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross was not for atonement of sins?

And which Ecumenical Council ratified the definition promulgated by Messrs. Merriam and Webster?
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« Reply #121 on: May 30, 2011, 01:17:46 PM »

"To whom was that Blood offered that was shed for us, and why was it shed? I mean the precious and famous Blood of our God and High Priest and Sacrifice. We were detained in bondage by the evil one, sold under sin, and received pleasure in exchange for wickedness. Now, since a ransom belongs only to him who holds in bondage, I ask, to who was this offered and to what cause? If to the evil one, fie upon the outrage! The robber receives ransom, not only from God, but a ransom which consists of God Himself, and as such has an illustrious payment for his tyranny, a payment for whose sake it would have been right for him to have left us alone all together.
But first I ask, how? For it was not by Him (God) that we were being oppressed. And next, on what principle did the Blood of His only Begotten Son delight the Father, Who would not receive even Isaac when he was being offered by his father, but changed the sacrifice, putting a ram in place of a human victim? Is it not evident that the Father accepts Him, but neither asked for Him nor demanded Him; but on account of the Incarnation, and because Humanity must be sanctified by the Humanity of God, that He might deliver us Himself and overcome the tryant, and draw us to Himself by the mediation of His Son, Who also arranged this to the honour of the Father, Whom it is manifest that He obeys in all things."

-St. Gregory the Theologian, Second Oration on Pascha
The Paschal sacrifice was atonement according to the second definition of atonement on Merriam Webster:

atonement - the reconciliation of God and humankind through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atonement


All of the Old Testament sacrifices, which were a foretaste of the ultimate sacrifice of the Lamb of God, were for the purpose of atoning for sins, so what makes you think that Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross was not for atonement of sins?

And which Ecumenical Council ratified the definition promulgated by Messrs. Merriam and Webster?
LOL. So now you don't accept definitions of words that weren't explicitly defined by an ecumenical council? Nice. Better quit speaking English then because I'm pretty sure none of the words you just used were ratified by an ecumenical council.
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« Reply #122 on: May 30, 2011, 01:22:35 PM »


"To whom was that Blood offered that was shed for us, and why was it shed? I mean the precious and famous Blood of our God and High Priest and Sacrifice. We were detained in bondage by the evil one, sold under sin, and received pleasure in exchange for wickedness. Now, since a ransom belongs only to him who holds in bondage, I ask, to who was this offered and to what cause? If to the evil one, fie upon the outrage! The robber receives ransom, not only from God, but a ransom which consists of God Himself, and as such has an illustrious payment for his tyranny, a payment for whose sake it would have been right for him to have left us alone all together.
But first I ask, how? For it was not by Him (God) that we were being oppressed. And next, on what principle did the Blood of His only Begotten Son delight the Father, Who would not receive even Isaac when he was being offered by his father, but changed the sacrifice, putting a ram in place of a human victim? Is it not evident that the Father accepts Him, but neither asked for Him nor demanded Him; but on account of the Incarnation, and because Humanity must be sanctified by the Humanity of God, that He might deliver us Himself and overcome the tryant, and draw us to Himself by the mediation of His Son, Who also arranged this to the honour of the Father, Whom it is manifest that He obeys in all things."

-St. Gregory the Theologian, Second Oration on Pascha


To me, as a Catholic, this represents quite well the theological meaning of atonement.

M.
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« Reply #123 on: May 30, 2011, 01:28:15 PM »

And which Ecumenical Council ratified the definition promulgated by Messrs. Merriam and Webster?
LOL. So now you don't accept definitions of certain words that weren't explicitly defined by an ecumenical council? Nice. Better quit speaking English then because I'm pretty sure none of the words you just used were ratified by an ecumenical council.

Fixed it for you.  You might want to work on not jumping to erroneous generalizations.
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« Reply #124 on: May 30, 2011, 01:55:11 PM »


"To whom was that Blood offered that was shed for us, and why was it shed? I mean the precious and famous Blood of our God and High Priest and Sacrifice. We were detained in bondage by the evil one, sold under sin, and received pleasure in exchange for wickedness. Now, since a ransom belongs only to him who holds in bondage, I ask, to who was this offered and to what cause? If to the evil one, fie upon the outrage! The robber receives ransom, not only from God, but a ransom which consists of God Himself, and as such has an illustrious payment for his tyranny, a payment for whose sake it would have been right for him to have left us alone all together.
But first I ask, how? For it was not by Him (God) that we were being oppressed. And next, on what principle did the Blood of His only Begotten Son delight the Father, Who would not receive even Isaac when he was being offered by his father, but changed the sacrifice, putting a ram in place of a human victim? Is it not evident that the Father accepts Him, but neither asked for Him nor demanded Him; but on account of the Incarnation, and because Humanity must be sanctified by the Humanity of God, that He might deliver us Himself and overcome the tryant, and draw us to Himself by the mediation of His Son, Who also arranged this to the honour of the Father, Whom it is manifest that He obeys in all things."

-St. Gregory the Theologian, Second Oration on Pascha


To me, as a Catholic, this represents quite well the theological meaning of atonement.

M.
Then repeat after me and we are on the same page:
"I publicly profess and hold that the Sacrifice of Golgotha was in no way a 'satisfaction' offered to atone for sins nor to pay a penalty or punishment owing for sins".
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« Reply #125 on: May 30, 2011, 02:12:48 PM »

Then repeat after me and we are on the same page:
"I publicly profess and hold that the Sacrifice of Golgotha was in no way a 'satisfaction' offered to atone for sins nor to pay a penalty or punishment owing for sins".
Then what, pray tell, was the purpose of the sacrifice of Calvary?
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« Reply #126 on: May 30, 2011, 02:19:52 PM »


"To whom was that Blood offered that was shed for us, and why was it shed? I mean the precious and famous Blood of our God and High Priest and Sacrifice. We were detained in bondage by the evil one, sold under sin, and received pleasure in exchange for wickedness. Now, since a ransom belongs only to him who holds in bondage, I ask, to who was this offered and to what cause? If to the evil one, fie upon the outrage! The robber receives ransom, not only from God, but a ransom which consists of God Himself, and as such has an illustrious payment for his tyranny, a payment for whose sake it would have been right for him to have left us alone all together.
But first I ask, how? For it was not by Him (God) that we were being oppressed. And next, on what principle did the Blood of His only Begotten Son delight the Father, Who would not receive even Isaac when he was being offered by his father, but changed the sacrifice, putting a ram in place of a human victim? Is it not evident that the Father accepts Him, but neither asked for Him nor demanded Him; but on account of the Incarnation, and because Humanity must be sanctified by the Humanity of God, that He might deliver us Himself and overcome the tryant, and draw us to Himself by the mediation of His Son, Who also arranged this to the honour of the Father, Whom it is manifest that He obeys in all things."

-St. Gregory the Theologian, Second Oration on Pascha


To me, as a Catholic, this represents quite well the theological meaning of atonement.

M.
Then repeat after me and we are on the same page:
"I publicly profess and hold that the Sacrifice of Golgotha was in no way a 'satisfaction' offered to atone for sins nor to pay a penalty or punishment owing for sins".

I publicly profess and hold that Catholics do not teach penal restitution or penal satisfaction!!

I do however believe that Christ died to restore mankind and the world to their pre-lapsarian state of original justice, thus the meaning of atonement is one that is restorative, not punitive.

M.
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« Reply #127 on: May 30, 2011, 02:25:41 PM »

Then repeat after me and we are on the same page:
"I publicly profess and hold that the Sacrifice of Golgotha was in no way a 'satisfaction' offered to atone for sins nor to pay a penalty or punishment owing for sins".
Then what, pray tell, was the purpose of the sacrifice of Calvary?
So that Christ could enter Hades and rob it and trample it underfoot, denying death and the devil any Victory. This is the Faith of the Fathers, the Voice of the Church in her ancient Liturgical prayers and hymns. Now since you have known nothing but the errors you have been taught about penal satisfaction, I don't expect you to understand this, but I assure you that this is the belief of the true Christian Faith.
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« Reply #128 on: May 30, 2011, 02:28:19 PM »

Then repeat after me and we are on the same page:
"I publicly profess and hold that the Sacrifice of Golgotha was in no way a 'satisfaction' offered to atone for sins nor to pay a penalty or punishment owing for sins".
Then what, pray tell, was the purpose of the sacrifice of Calvary?
So that Christ could enter Hades and rob it and trample it underfoot, denying death and the devil any Victory. This is the Faith of the Fathers, the Voice of the Church in her ancient Liturgical prayers and hymns. Now since you have known nothing but the errors you have been taught about penal satisfaction, I don't expect you to understand this, but I assure you that this is the belief of the true Christian Faith.

George dahlinks!!  That is Calvin what you are "quoting"....It ain't Ketlick!
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« Reply #129 on: May 30, 2011, 02:41:22 PM »

Then repeat after me and we are on the same page:
"I publicly profess and hold that the Sacrifice of Golgotha was in no way a 'satisfaction' offered to atone for sins nor to pay a penalty or punishment owing for sins".
Then what, pray tell, was the purpose of the sacrifice of Calvary?
So that Christ could enter Hades and rob it and trample it underfoot, denying death and the devil any Victory. This is the Faith of the Fathers, the Voice of the Church in her ancient Liturgical prayers and hymns. Now since you have known nothing but the errors you have been taught about penal satisfaction, I don't expect you to understand this, but I assure you that this is the belief of the true Christian Faith.
Indeed we believe this too. In our Liturgy during certain parts of the year we sing "dying you destroyed our death, rising you restored our life." It doesn't seem like it's an either/or situation, but rather both/and. The death part doesn't make sense if there was no atonement needed. Since Christ is God, He could have conquered death and the devil anyway He wanted. Why would He choose to die on the Cross instead? What is the purpose of sacrifice if not for atonement? You make the point that we are no longer in the Old Covenant, but the Old Covenant points to and foreshadows the New, so it only makes sense that the New Covenant, while being different in many ways, would also resemble the Old.

The idea that Christ's death on the Cross was not for the purpose of saving us from sin is quite strange, and sounds heretical.
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« Reply #130 on: May 30, 2011, 03:40:05 PM »

That is patently untrue. We have a very strongly developed concept of deification (the Latin word for the same thing).

As for the comment about Mormonism - well, I know some Mormons. Lots of Mormons, actually. I went to Sacrament Meeting today to bid farewell to one of my friends who is about to leave on his mission, and went to a party this evening to greet a friend who just returned and say farewell to yet another friend leaving on his mission.

Yeah, their religion is wrong - really wrong. But I know men who do have not valid baptisms who show forth evidence of the grace of Christ in their life. Is it sacramental grace? No. It's not. But I recognize the fruits of the Holy Spirit when I see it.

The reality is much more complex than your post reveals. Mormonism doesn't have sacramental grace - the Catholic Church does - in fact, it has the fullness of it. Obviously, we disagree on this point.

But even Mormonism teaches the Resurrection. They teach charity. They teach love of neighbor and of God. Yes, their concepts of the One True God are severely warped - but there are the vestiges of truth within it - and those vestigies, while I have no idea if they will effect the salvation of some of my close friends, they at least bring forth true spiritual and Christian fruit which can only be the work of the Holy Spirit.

So many sheep without, so many wolves within. The issue is so much more complex than you seem to believe.

Perhaps, those missionaries were the ones who come to Poland, and walk on patrols down our streets. I had a Togan-Vietnamese Mormon convince me that he is Polish, and that his last name is Kowalski. Those Mormons have this name-tags on which they have Polish sounding lastnames, or what Americans think Polish lastnames sound like. "Szhytski" "Łomyjaniski" "Fakutarski" It is funny how the incorporate American curses into their nametags. I do not understand it though.
Once, I dialogued to them, it did not work, they did not convert. Since then I resort to cursing them in English and asking them to leave. This is successful, but then they send new recruits. Although people take religion seriously here. I have a friend who studies Turk. St, who told a Turk, "either get baptised or die, Christ is God." Then, he added Mohamed is a swine. Sadly, I rarely see Paweł since he is now studying in Turkey.
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« Reply #131 on: May 30, 2011, 04:37:58 PM »

That is patently untrue. We have a very strongly developed concept of deification (the Latin word for the same thing).

As for the comment about Mormonism - well, I know some Mormons. Lots of Mormons, actually. I went to Sacrament Meeting today to bid farewell to one of my friends who is about to leave on his mission, and went to a party this evening to greet a friend who just returned and say farewell to yet another friend leaving on his mission.

Yeah, their religion is wrong - really wrong. But I know men who do have not valid baptisms who show forth evidence of the grace of Christ in their life. Is it sacramental grace? No. It's not. But I recognize the fruits of the Holy Spirit when I see it.

The reality is much more complex than your post reveals. Mormonism doesn't have sacramental grace - the Catholic Church does - in fact, it has the fullness of it. Obviously, we disagree on this point.

But even Mormonism teaches the Resurrection. They teach charity. They teach love of neighbor and of God. Yes, their concepts of the One True God are severely warped - but there are the vestiges of truth within it - and those vestigies, while I have no idea if they will effect the salvation of some of my close friends, they at least bring forth true spiritual and Christian fruit which can only be the work of the Holy Spirit.

So many sheep without, so many wolves within. The issue is so much more complex than you seem to believe.

Perhaps, those missionaries were the ones who come to Poland, and walk on patrols down our streets. I had a Togan-Vietnamese Mormon convince me that he is Polish, and that his last name is Kowalski. Those Mormons have this name-tags on which they have Polish sounding lastnames, or what Americans think Polish lastnames sound like. "Szhytski" "Łomyjaniski" "Fakutarski" It is funny how the incorporate American curses into their nametags. I do not understand it though.
Once, I dialogued to them, it did not work, they did not convert. Since then I resort to cursing them in English and asking them to leave. This is successful, but then they send new recruits. Although people take religion seriously here. I have a friend who studies Turk. St, who told a Turk, "either get baptised or die, Christ is God." Then, he added Mohamed is a swine. Sadly, I rarely see Paweł since he is now studying in Turkey.

That sounds like a very wrongheaded way to evangelise honestly. It may be taking religion seriously and with zeal but I think it's a combative approach unlikely to yield worthwhile results very often. As to your other points, Mormons fortunately are something that are rare in the UK or Ireland. We have an excess of Jehovah's Witnesses though and in this area of London where I live presently numerous members of the Seventh Day Adventist movement. When I was younger I used to get cross with them, now I emulate my father who will either politely say 'no thank you' or the subject interests him chat politely for a time. I think his approach is far better than my youthful one was.
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« Reply #132 on: May 30, 2011, 04:39:23 PM »

Quote
I'm answering this thread, while keeping up with two others, another on another forum, watching a Youtube video and playing Risk online in the background.
You're not THAT important.

Matthew 25:40

 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

Or in other words ALL men are THAT important.


Perfect  Smiley

Christ is, I am sadly most certainly not, however I felt as Christ's words have divine lucidity it might be fruitful to borrow from our master at that point.
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Things bright and green, things young and happy;
And I have gone upon my way
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« Reply #133 on: May 30, 2011, 04:49:38 PM »

Quote
I'm answering this thread, while keeping up with two others, another on another forum, watching a Youtube video and playing Risk online in the background.
You're not THAT important.

Matthew 25:40

 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

Or in other words ALL men are THAT important.


Perfect  Smiley

Christ is, I am sadly most certainly not, however I felt as Christ's words have divine lucidity it might be fruitful to borrow from our master at that point.


The choice of texts and the text...is perfect.  I think we must learn to call that synergy.... Smiley
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« Reply #134 on: May 31, 2011, 08:08:56 AM »


That sounds like a very wrongheaded way to evangelise honestly. It may be taking religion seriously and with zeal but I think it's a combative approach unlikely to yield worthwhile results very often. As to your other points, Mormons fortunately are something that are rare in the UK or Ireland. We have an excess of Jehovah's Witnesses though and in this area of London where I live presently numerous members of the Seventh Day Adventist movement. When I was younger I used to get cross with them, now I emulate my father who will either politely say 'no thank you' or the subject interests him chat politely for a time. I think his approach is far better than my youthful one was.

Our religion was built on the swords of soldiers, not on the tracts of learned theologians.
Perhaps English manners are good for Londoners, the rest of the world does not need twofaced Anglo-Saxon culture. Anglo-Saxon manners are good for Anglos; no, thank you.
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