Author Topic: So... how do we get into heaven?  (Read 1508 times)

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Offline neon_knights

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So... how do we get into heaven?
« on: June 01, 2011, 07:43:44 PM »
The age old question. Is it by faith? Works? A combination of both?

If you were faced before God the Father, and he asked you "What did you do to deserve to enter my kingdom?", what would you say?

Offline Kasatkin fan

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Re: So... how do we get into heaven?
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2011, 07:50:44 PM »
We get into heaven by grace.


As to faith vs. works, they can't exist on their own. To say it is one or the other is like asking if you the right pant leg or the left pant leg is more important.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: So... how do we get into heaven?
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2011, 08:23:14 PM »
The age old question. Is it by faith? Works? A combination of both?

By loving God and His Creation.

If you were faced before God the Father, and he asked you "What did you do to deserve to enter my kingdom?", what would you say?

It's not something that we "deserve".
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Offline Melodist

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Re: So... how do we get into heaven?
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2011, 08:55:55 PM »
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline Melodist

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Re: So... how do we get into heaven?
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2011, 08:57:49 PM »
God doesn't "owe" anyone anything.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: So... how do we get into heaven?
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2011, 09:15:42 PM »
So... how do we get into heaven? 
Just into heaven? What about the Resurrection?  ;)
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 09:16:15 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: So... how do we get into heaven?
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2011, 10:13:32 PM »
The age old question. Is it by faith? Works? A combination of both?

If you were faced before God the Father, and he asked you "What did you do to deserve to enter my kingdom?", what would you say?

Being in union with Christ
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: So... how do we get into heaven?
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2011, 10:36:38 PM »
The age old question. Is it by faith? Works? A combination of both?

I have heard that a better translation from the Greek rather than "faith" is "faithfulness", which totally reframes the question. Faithfulness to God is good works and a righteous life.

I haven't yet gotten back into the Scriptures to see how well this seems to play out in the New Testament teachings, but it's interesting to consider and I recommend that you do the same.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: So... how do we get into heaven?
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2011, 10:47:47 PM »
I think the whole "heaven" thing is a bad concept translated into our world. The Kingdom of God, the Age to Come, etc. seem less likely to be embroidered with kitsch and Platonism.
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Offline IsmiLiora

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Re: So... how do we get into heaven?
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2011, 10:52:06 PM »
I think the whole "heaven" thing is a bad concept translated into our world. The Kingdom of God, the Age to Come, etc. seem less likely to be embroidered with kitsch and Platonism.
I agree with the first part (still mulling on the second sentence). Asking "how do you get to heaven?" is just asking for a formulaic answer.

I think that a better question is "How can you attain theosis?" Still probably a formulaic answer...but I don't know.

I feel like I'm the only person not concerned with getting into heaven.  :-\ (Not that I don't think about it at all; I guess I just think of it differently.) I am concerned more with being one with God right now, more than imagining some strange place up in the clouds. Ultimately we don't know how God will judge us, so I am just trying to be as close to Him as I can on earth in the hopes that I will be with Him after I die.
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Offline Kasatkin fan

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Re: So... how do we get into heaven?
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2011, 11:03:26 PM »
I think that a better question is "How can you attain theosis?" Still probably a formulaic answer...but I don't know.
Cyclical I think. How do you attain theosis? By becoming closer to God, how do you become close to God? Attaining theosis.

I jest, of course there are legitimate answers to this question. ;)

Quote
I feel like I'm the only person not concerned with getting into heaven.  :-\ (Not that I don't think about it at all; I guess I just think of it differently.) I am concerned more with being one with God right now, more than imagining some strange place up in the clouds. Ultimately we don't know how God will judge us, so I am just trying to be as close to Him as I can on earth in the hopes that I will be with Him after I die.
I can't remember any names at the moment, but from reading the Church fathers several comment that we should concern ourselves with becoming closer to God, rather than simply getting into heaven out of a fear of hell. Certainly the Church Father's agree with you.

Offline IsmiLiora

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Re: So... how do we get into heaven?
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2011, 11:06:41 PM »
I think that a better question is "How can you attain theosis?" Still probably a formulaic answer...but I don't know.
Cyclical I think. How do you attain theosis? By becoming closer to God, how do you become close to God? Attaining theosis.

I jest, of course there are legitimate answers to this question. ;)

Quote
I feel like I'm the only person not concerned with getting into heaven.  :-\ (Not that I don't think about it at all; I guess I just think of it differently.) I am concerned more with being one with God right now, more than imagining some strange place up in the clouds. Ultimately we don't know how God will judge us, so I am just trying to be as close to Him as I can on earth in the hopes that I will be with Him after I die.
I can't remember any names at the moment, but from reading the Church fathers several comment that we should concern ourselves with becoming closer to God, rather than simply getting into heaven out of a fear of hell. Certainly the Church Father's agree with you.
Ha ha, fair enough about the question being cyclical.

I am just starting to read from the Church fathers, and while I can't think of any quotes off the top of my head (props to all of you who can do that!), I feel that they are at least implying that notion. I think it's a lot of "Protestant guilt" that remains...I call it that because I still feel some residual guilt over not reading the Bible every day, consulting my priest so much, reading other works, obsessing about whether God is going to throw me into the sea, etc. "How do you get to heaven?" sounds like a Bible study I would have attended a few years back!
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Offline Wyatt

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Re: So... how do we get into heaven?
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2011, 11:13:41 PM »
via Christ

Offline orthonorm

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Re: So... how do we get into heaven?
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2011, 11:18:02 PM »
via Christ

Two words and you have to work Latin into it?
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Offline Wyatt

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Re: So... how do we get into heaven?
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2011, 11:19:34 PM »
via Christ

Two words and you have to work Latin into it?
Oh good point, excuse me....

Via Christi. :P

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: So... how do we get into heaven?
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2011, 11:22:06 PM »
via Christ

Two words and you have to work Latin into it?

LATINA PERFECTISSIMA LANGVAGE

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Re: So... how do we get into heaven?
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2011, 11:47:26 PM »
The age old question. Is it by faith? Works? A combination of both?

If you were faced before God the Father, and he asked you "What did you do to deserve to enter my kingdom?", what would you say?

Nothing. I do not deserve it, nor could any fallen man deserve it. (I stole this answer of God' cheat sheet! :-p)
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Online pasadi97

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Re: So... how do we get into heaven?
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2011, 11:48:45 PM »
John 3:3
JN 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can't see the Kingdom of God."


To get to heaven is important to be baptized.

John 6:53-54
JN 6:53 Jesus therefore said to them, "Most certainly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you don't have life in yourselves.
JN 6:54 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

To get eternal life, is important to take Holy Communion.
Both King david and Isaiah did both works and arrioved to Hell because they were not baptized. Jesus took them from hell, baptized them and moved them to Heaven

Old Law was powerless regarding salvation. Even for prophet isaiah did not work.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: So... how do we get into heaven?
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2011, 11:50:41 PM »
John 3:3
JN 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can't see the Kingdom of God."


To get to heaven is important to be baptized.

John 6:53-54
JN 6:53 Jesus therefore said to them, "Most certainly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you don't have life in yourselves.
JN 6:54 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

To get eternal life, is important to take Holy Communion.
Both King david and Isaiah did both works and arrioved to Hell because they were not baptized. Jesus took them from hell, baptized them and moved them to Heaven

Old Law was powerless regarding salvation. Even for prophet isaiah did not work.

Except you do you realize none of those folks were in hell?
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: So... how do we get into heaven?
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2011, 02:54:51 AM »
John 3:3
JN 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can't see the Kingdom of God."


To get to heaven is important to be baptized.

John 6:53-54
JN 6:53 Jesus therefore said to them, "Most certainly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you don't have life in yourselves.
JN 6:54 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

To get eternal life, is important to take Holy Communion.
Both King david and Isaiah did both works and arrioved to Hell because they were not baptized. Jesus took them from hell, baptized them and moved them to Heaven

Old Law was powerless regarding salvation. Even for prophet isaiah did not work.

Except you do you realize none of those folks were in hell?

Yeah they were.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: So... how do we get into heaven?
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2011, 02:56:15 AM »
Both King david and Isaiah did both works and arrioved to Hell because they were not baptized. Jesus took them from hell, baptized them and moved them to Heaven

I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is anything more than apocryphal speculation. Where do you get the idea that Jesus Baptized David and Isaiah? Did you just make that up?
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 02:56:38 AM by deusveritasest »
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Offline genesisone

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Re: So... how do we get into heaven?
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2011, 07:47:18 AM »
I feel like I'm the only person not concerned with getting into heaven.  :-\ (Not that I don't think about it at all; I guess I just think of it differently.) I am concerned more with being one with God right now, more than imagining some strange place up in the clouds. Ultimately we don't know how God will judge us, so I am just trying to be as close to Him as I can on earth in the hopes that I will be with Him after I die.
Go ahead and feel that way - but know that it isn't true  ;). You've stated very clearly my own thoughts as well. I have enough to deal with every day that I suppose I might be saying, "Heaven will be fine when I get there, but I'm not there now so let's deal with that."

I heard it said in Protestant circles, "A little bit of faith will bring your soul to heaven; a little more faith will bring heaven to your soul." My experience as an Orthodox Christian has proven to be that "a little more faith" because of the completeness of the faith that I have found in the Church.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: So... how do we get into heaven?
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2011, 09:14:04 AM »
John 3:3
JN 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can't see the Kingdom of God."


To get to heaven is important to be baptized.

John 6:53-54
JN 6:53 Jesus therefore said to them, "Most certainly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you don't have life in yourselves.
JN 6:54 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

To get eternal life, is important to take Holy Communion.
Both King david and Isaiah did both works and arrioved to Hell because they were not baptized. Jesus took them from hell, baptized them and moved them to Heaven

Old Law was powerless regarding salvation. Even for prophet isaiah did not work.

Except you do you realize none of those folks were in hell?

Yeah they were.

No they weren't. Do I win?
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: So... how do we get into heaven?
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2011, 01:07:28 PM »
Both King david and Isaiah did both works and arrioved to Hell because they were not baptized. Jesus took them from hell, baptized them and moved them to Heaven

I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is anything more than apocryphal speculation. Where do you get the idea that Jesus Baptized David and Isaiah? Did you just make that up?

I think he's talking about Hades.
"Christ rose from the place of the dead, and raised up the race of Adam from the grave below." Melito 170 A.D.

"The Lord was made "the First-Begotten of the dead." Receiving into His bosom the ancient fathers, He has regenerated them into the life of God." Irenaes 180A.D.


And even in regards to the wicked before the first advent, we see clues that the Gospel was preached in Hades
1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.


1 Peter 4:5-6
"They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."


"It was for this reason, too, that the Lord descended into the regions beneath the earth, preaching His advent there also. And He [declared] the remission of sins received by those who believe in Him." Irenaeus 180 A.D.
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

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Offline orthonorm

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Re: So... how do we get into heaven?
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2011, 01:57:48 PM »
Both King david and Isaiah did both works and arrioved to Hell because they were not baptized. Jesus took them from hell, baptized them and moved them to Heaven

I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is anything more than apocryphal speculation. Where do you get the idea that Jesus Baptized David and Isaiah? Did you just make that up?

I think he's talking about Hades.
"Christ rose from the place of the dead, and raised up the race of Adam from the grave below." Melito 170 A.D.

"The Lord was made "the First-Begotten of the dead." Receiving into His bosom the ancient fathers, He has regenerated them into the life of God." Irenaes 180A.D.


And even in regards to the wicked before the first advent, we see clues that the Gospel was preached in Hades
1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.


1 Peter 4:5-6
"They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."


"It was for this reason, too, that the Lord descended into the regions beneath the earth, preaching His advent there also. And He [declared] the remission of sins received by those who believe in Him." Irenaeus 180 A.D.


I was being precocious. You are right. In English, the infelicitous use of the word hell is theologically wrong. Hades is better, but does sound ridiculous to a degree. Maybe Sheol would be best. But it seems Hades is what is gaining traction in English to describe what is being discussed here.
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: So... how do we get into heaven?
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2011, 02:33:42 PM »
Neon Nights--First, welcome to the forum! Second, what your reaction to the answers that were given?

Offline neon_knights

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Re: So... how do we get into heaven?
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2011, 03:16:12 PM »
Thanks for the replies everyone. Just coming from this "eternal security" background into a faith that teaches something different about how we can attain Paradise, there is a little bit of the barrier between the two.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: So... how do we get into heaven?
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2011, 03:45:38 PM »
Both King david and Isaiah did both works and arrioved to Hell because they were not baptized. Jesus took them from hell, baptized them and moved them to Heaven

I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is anything more than apocryphal speculation. Where do you get the idea that Jesus Baptized David and Isaiah? Did you just make that up?

I think he's talking about Hades.
"Christ rose from the place of the dead, and raised up the race of Adam from the grave below." Melito 170 A.D.

"The Lord was made "the First-Begotten of the dead." Receiving into His bosom the ancient fathers, He has regenerated them into the life of God." Irenaes 180A.D.


And even in regards to the wicked before the first advent, we see clues that the Gospel was preached in Hades
1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.


1 Peter 4:5-6
"They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."


"It was for this reason, too, that the Lord descended into the regions beneath the earth, preaching His advent there also. And He [declared] the remission of sins received by those who believe in Him." Irenaeus 180 A.D.


Huh? Where does that say that David and Isaiah were Baptized?
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: So... how do we get into heaven?
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2011, 03:46:40 PM »
In English, the infelicitous use of the word hell is theologically wrong.

How is that?
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