Author Topic: Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims  (Read 9315 times)

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Offline Deacon Lance

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Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« on: June 12, 2004, 11:44:41 AM »
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/sns-ap-bosnia-srebrenica,0,2569083.story?coll=ny-worldnews-headlines

I think this gives some context to what is going on in Kosovo, although it certainly does not excuse it.

(I fixed the URL tag. Please use it everyone!--anastasios)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2004, 01:13:46 PM by anastasios »
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Offline Anastasios

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2004, 01:15:36 PM »
That whole region is a mess. I initially agreed with the intervention under Clinton but the subsequent favoring of the Kosovars is very disturbing.  Also the tendancy to forget what the Croats did to the Serbs in the 1940's.  I think they should have partitioned Bosnia and given the Serbs the land where they were the majority.  In Kosovo, I agree the Serbs should not have killed the Muslims there like they did but nothing excuses NATO sitting around watching the Muslims do reprisals on the Serbs--especially since they do it to weak targets like Churches.

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Offline spartacus

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2004, 11:16:54 AM »
I initially agreed with the intervention under Clinton but the subsequent favoring of the Kosovars is very disturbing.  anastasios

That's the problem with military intervention in a situation like that...one must pick a side. Most people familiar with military matters were very much opposed to US intervention becuase we know that when there is civil war and klan war...and that is what it is there....one can not intervene unless one chooses a side. Now after a cease fire is established, one can mobilize foreign troops to help enforce that...but while the lead is flying.....one must choose a side....and in that part of the world every side has blood on its hands.

Anyone wanting know just how crazy it was over there should read David Hackworth's book "Hazardous Duty". Hackworth is the most decorated living US Army combat veteran. He spent three tours in Korea, five tours in Viet Nam and has been a correspondent to the Gulf War, Our invasion of Haiti, Panam, and elsewhere. In Bosnia for the first time in his life he felt it was absolutely necessary to wear body armor all the time. In every other war zone he was in there was always some method or sense to the violence...but in Bosnia there was no method or sense to it....it was a region whose inhabitants had just starting killing one another. One could expect to be mortared or sniped at almost anywhere from anyone. Both sides wore the same type of uniforms and used the same type of weapons -- the only difference was the Serbs had more of everything. Hackworth tells of how the plums were in season while he was there and the Serbs had a nasty habit of starting to drink Blum brandy right after breakfast so that by afternoon, you now had an army of heavily armed men drunk out of their minds...and this is reflected in the sensless killing.

Clinton's attempt to save the Balkans with air power is a study in self delusion.....something most Americans do not realize is that most of the targets the US Air Force and Navy hit were in fact decoys.....lumber and canvas set up to look like tanks and artillery...hard to tell when Clinton would not let our planes below 15,000 feet. Also much harder to be accurate....I wonder what the numbers are of civilians accidently killed because our planes would not go below 15,000ft?

Offline sdcheung

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2004, 12:17:38 PM »
Newsday?
a New York paper?
I take it with a Grain of salt.
better to read altie papers.

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Offline spartacus

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2004, 12:47:07 PM »
This story is on the international wires....the Serbian government has admitted to this atrocity and at least one soldier has confessed to participating in it in a world court and was sentenced to five years for murder and has incriminated many others.

The facts are pretty plain.

1.)Serb soldiers comitted a major atrocity. It was planned, and carried out with forethought...and then later actions were taken to try to conceal their crime.
2.) Dutch UN forces were absolutely worthless at proetecting innocents then.
3.) Today, German forces are absolutely worthless at protecting innocents.

Offline sdcheung

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2004, 09:12:56 PM »
Yaeah..
Under Gunpoint by the west of course they admit to it.

is this the serbian gov't thats friendly to the west or is it still the nationalist gov't? if it's friendly to "we" people in the west, then it's got to be a lapdog gov't to the West.

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Offline spartacus

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2004, 09:19:35 AM »
Yaeah..
Under Gunpoint by the west of course they admit to it.

is this the serbian gov't thats friendly to the west or is it still the nationalist gov't? if it's friendly to "we" people in the west, then it's got to be a lapdog gov't to the West.


These denials remind me of some elderly German aunts I have -- they still think the Holocaust never happened.....Why is it so difficult to believe that a small number of serbian soldiers murderd 7,000 unarmed men and boys. We have the testimony of one Serbian participant, the testimony of Dutch soldiers that they were not well enough armed, equipped or led to stop it...and that admission led to the fall of a government for them...why is it so difficult to believe.

Would you be more likely to believe it if I told you that knowledgeable experts --- who examined the scene where Serbian mortars allegedly hit a marketplace full of muslims and killed dozens of shoppers -- determined that the explosion was not a mortar but rather a claymore mine...and it would appear that the muslims made "martyrs" of their own people in an effort to win western support? This is a fact and Hackworth details this in his book I mentioned in a post above.

US soldiers in the Korean war now admit to killing thousands of innocent civilians in the early days of the war....do you believe that?

Or is it just that you cannot bring yourself to believe that a small number of Serbians comitted an atrocity?

Atrocities were committed on both sides by both sides in that war. Why do you find this so hard to accept?

Offline ambrosemzv

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2004, 10:01:09 AM »
is this the serbian gov't thats friendly to the west or is it still the nationalist gov't? if it's friendly to "we" people in the west, then it's got to be a lapdog gov't to the West.

I'm having just a little bit of trouble understanding the logic here.
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Offline spartacus

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2004, 11:21:51 AM »
There is no logic...it is called denial

Offline Ebor

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2004, 03:50:23 PM »
Some people cannot or will not entertain any idea that their preferred groups/parties/co-religionists etc could ever do anything wrong or evil and thus any report of such must be untrue/ a plot by "enemies" or such like, Ambrosemvz.  

Ebor
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Offline sdcheung

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2004, 08:54:57 PM »
Durn, Right.
and thats that.
If'n you don't like it, stop interfering with the pristine and pure and wholesome , Honest and Innocent orthodox Christian sof the Balkans.
They never did anything wrong, unless protecting your lands is wrong.



Some people cannot or will not entertain any idea that their preferred groups/parties/co-religionists etc could ever do anything wrong or evil and thus any report of such must be untrue/ a plot by "enemies" or such like, Ambrosemvz.  

Ebor

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Offline sdcheung

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2004, 08:57:27 PM »
I accept that Bosnians Serbs and their army are innocent.
Innocent because they were protecting Christian Orthodox Land, land that they fought and shed their blood for, and the Muslims had no part of it.




These denials remind me of some elderly German aunts I have -- they still think the Holocaust never happened.....Why is it so difficult to believe that a small number of serbian soldiers murderd 7,000 unarmed men and boys. We have the testimony of one Serbian participant, the testimony of Dutch soldiers that they were not well enough armed, equipped or led to stop it...and that admission led to the fall of a government for them...why is it so difficult to believe.

Would you be more likely to believe it if I told you that knowledgeable experts --- who examined the scene where Serbian mortars allegedly hit a marketplace full of muslims and killed dozens of shoppers -- determined that the explosion was not a mortar but rather a claymore mine...and it would appear that the muslims made "martyrs" of their own people in an effort to win western support? This is a fact and Hackworth details this in his book I mentioned in a post above.

US soldiers in the Korean war now admit to killing thousands of innocent civilians in the early days of the war....do you believe that?

Or is it just that you cannot bring yourself to believe that a small number of Serbians comitted an atrocity?

Atrocities were committed on both sides by both sides in that war. Why do you find this so hard to accept?

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Offline Brendan03

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2004, 08:04:22 AM »
I accept that Bosnians Serbs and their army are innocent.
Innocent because they were protecting Christian Orthodox Land, land that they fought and shed their blood for, and the Muslims had no part of it.

Um, no.  Just because you are Orthodox does not mean what you do is right.  What the Bosnian Serbs did in Srebrenica was a war crime, plain and simple, regardless of their own religious affiliation (which was, in any case, probably more cultural than anything else, similar to how the IRA bombers considered themselves "Catholics").
B

Offline ambrosemzv

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2004, 02:52:25 PM »
The Muslim conquests in Serbia, Kosovo, etc., took place in the 14th century!  If that justifies the massacre and expulsion of tens of thousands of Kosovar Albanian Muslim men, women and children, then I guess we Americans of European descent had better start packing our bags, too!

But, then, the Slavs had originally been migrants and conquerors, too.

The logic and historical imagining behind any type of "ethnic cleansing" is and always has been terribly flawed, and has brought shame upon those "Orthodox" groups that have purpatrated it or countenanced it.

Just as it brings shame upon those Albanian Kosovars that engaged in it earlier this century, are currently engaged in it, and the Western forces that stand by and let it happen.
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Offline sdcheung

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2004, 11:21:07 AM »
from a discussion:

Native converts from Western, liberal countries and societies (like
the U.S., for instance) are always like that. I've always said --
and I continue to say -- that it'd be better off for these people to
have never converted to Orthodoxy in the first place.

First of all, it doesn't even suit them to convert if they've decided
to retain their ultra-liberal, multi-cultural worldviews, which are
all products of the secular and decadent West and completely foreign
to Eastern Orthodoxy. I mean, it makes as much sense as a Marxist
declaring that he's converted to Orthodoxy... but still wants to
remain a communist.

The inevitable result of such unnatural unions are that a
contradictory amalgamation of views and values occurs. The fact that
an "Orthodox Christian" (term used very lightly here) could state
something like "I initially supporting the U.S.'s bombing of
Yugoslavia" is a case in point. Such statements becomes less
baffling when notice is taken to the person's warped socio-political
views and their environment is properly analyzed.

In the end, I think it's pointless to have any type of association
with such people. They live in a totally different world -- filled
with simplistic answers to complex questions and colored with social
and political views that are incompatable with Orthodoxy. And there's
no way to remedy their ignorance, or expose their contradictory
nature to them, either. If you don't believe me... try to hold a
logical discussion with them concerning modern day national issues
concerning Balkan countries and take note of the regurgitated Freudo-
Marxian tripe that is fed back to you time after time.

Oh, and let's not forget that most American converts are fanatically
misograecist despite being zealous Russophiles (seriously, some of
these sad people are so fanatically pro-Russian that they'd probably
give you their bodies if you told them you were Russian...).



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Offline Ebor

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2004, 11:28:56 AM »
And the source of this quote is?  Lacking context and attribution, I see no reason to think that the writer is in any way correct.  And the slur at the end makes it even more suspect.

The mere fact that a person claims EO as their denomination does not automatically make them pure, trustworthy and innocent of all ill.

Ebor
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Offline sdcheung

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2004, 11:32:37 AM »
it's from a friend, that had run ins with these types.. that said...

"The mere fact that a person claims EO as their denomination does not automatically make them pure, trustworthy and innocent of all ill."

Hey I'm a Convert too..But, well, I toe the Line on the Politics.

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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2004, 12:08:32 PM »
Oh, and let's not forget that most American converts are fanatically
misograecist despite being zealous Russophiles (seriously, some of
these sad people are so fanatically pro-Russian that they'd probably
give you their bodies if you told them you were Russian...).

 :rofl:

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Offline sdcheung

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2004, 12:09:35 PM »
Ela Vreee Ari...
Yes, I know it is..
:)

:rofl:

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Offline Brendan03

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2004, 01:38:23 PM »
Ah, maybe the alithea has some small thing to do with the current state of the GOA here??  Just, um, maybe?
B

Offline cizinec

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2004, 03:17:36 PM »
The report being discussed, as far as I know, has not been released in its entirety to the public.  If anyone knows where it can be found, let me know.

That the Serbian government admits "that their security forces carried out Europe's worst massacre since World War II," I very seriously doubt.  I know that there are some more respected (when it comes to the Balkans) news agencies working on the story that felt more time was necessary to review the document before declaring what it said.  This sounds to me like another bit of Balkan sensationalism from the NYT and AP.  I noticed the authors name was Samir Krilic.

The situation in the Balkans was and is very complicated.  Serbs from the earliest part of Tito's regime had complained that they were being forcibly removed from Kosovo.  Constitutional changes in the 1970s allowed each region more autonomy militarily and, in many ways, forced the ethnic groups into competing camps.  The Germans promised the Slovenians earlier access to the EU if they could break away from Yugoslavia.  Etc. etc. etc.

When the "West" was stupid enough to start recognizing every little ethnic group as a separate country, the worst was bound to happen.  In the end, all sides committed atrocities.  The Slovenians were probably the least directly guilty, but made quite a bit from arming the warring parties.

Unfortunately, some uninformed (some are too lazy to become informed) Westerners decided they could learn all about the Balkans by reading the New York Times and watching CNN.  They were told and still believe that Mr. Serb is bad and everyone else is a-okay.  Sure, most of the sensational stories from USA Today were proved false and the fabricated stories were echoed across the Western media.  Let's not forget that the New York Times, Washington Post and USA Today have all admited to printing fabricated stories and that these stories (many discussing the Balkans) were easily determined to have been fraudulent.

Which is why you see the Serbs, many of whom are guilty, lined up in a special court (I won't get into that) while Amnesty International screams its head off about Croats and Muslims who not only walk free, but are leading military officials in Croatia and Kosovo.

The uninformed Westerners don't worry about these things and sleep tidily in their nice warm beds with the comforting thought that they "stopped evil."  Not realising, of course, that all but one of the 9-11 hijackers are believed to have made there way through Kosovo.  

Sorry to burst your bubbles, but there were great Serbs who opposed Milosevic (the Serbs removed him from power, not NATO) and who spoke out against what was happening in Bosnia, including Patriarch Pavle.  

For those here who would like to continue to believe the lie about Patriarch Pavle's statements concerning the war by saying he never spoke out against attrocities:

http://www.kosovo.com/pavle.html

There was a letter he wrote for Easter in the early 90s I wish I could find.  It is the strongest condemnation and he discusses specific groups of Serbs.

Of course, CNN didn't report it so he couldn't have said it.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2004, 03:31:15 PM by cizinec »
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Offline spartacus

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2004, 03:33:17 PM »
Americnas have very short attention spans. Things must be kept simple in order for them to understand. This is sad but true.

In general Americans want to do the right thing....However in the Balkans...where knowledgaeable people said we had no business being there. There was a compulsion to do "something". So the Clinton administration's answer was to bomb Serbian targets from 15,000 feet. A brilliant failure of policy.

Offline cizinec

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2004, 03:43:54 PM »
No one in support of the bombing can explain to me why we bombed Vojvodina.

Is there *any* reasonabe reason for us to have done this?  How was this supposed to help Kosovo?
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Offline cizinec

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2004, 04:10:40 PM »
" The Muslim conquests in Serbia, Kosovo, etc., took place  in the 14th century!  If that justifies the massacre and expulsion of tens of thousands of Kosovar Albanian Muslim men, women and children, then I guess we Americans of European descent had better start packing our bags, too!"

It's not that simple!  

Many Muslims and Croats were fascists in WWII and murdered an immense number of Serbs because they were Serbs.  When Croatia decided to use the flag used by the fascists in WWII, the antagonists among the Serbs were able to say, "See!  They want to destroy us all!  Come, let's not be victims this time.  Join our battle against the evil fascists - the Croats and Muslims!"  Of course, the flag was older than the Nazis, but the Croats were singing and playing nationalistic songs written by the fascists and seemed to be completely insensitive to the fears of the Serbs.  They practiced poor choices, as did the Serbs who were just as fanatical.

But to say that there is no living memory of a slaughter of Serbs by Muslims in Kosovo after the 14th Century is historical nonsense.  There are people my parents’ age who lived through the atrocities committed by Muslim fascists in Kosovo.  I can't imagine that their children weren't raised without at least a little fear that it would happen again.

I hope you didn’t know that there were fascist Albanians in Kosovo slaughtering Serbs that recently, Ambrose.  Otherwise your post would be intentionally misleading.  I assume that is not the case and hope that you now understand that the situation is not as easily classified as you previously thought.
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Offline cizinec

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2004, 04:24:55 PM »
I am *not* saying, btw, that the massacres commited by Serbs is justifiable.  It is evil and must be condemned, as it was and is by the Serbian Orthodox Church.  

How many statements by the Vatican have we heard condemning Croatian vioelnce?  It's a question of curiosity.  I'm not challenging anyone.
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Offline Orthodoc

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2004, 06:19:39 PM »
I am *not* saying, btw, that the massacres commited by Serbs is justifiable.  It is evil and must be condemned, as it was and is by the Serbian Orthodox Church.  

How many statements by the Vatican have we heard condemning Croatian vioelnce?  It's a question of curiosity.  I'm not challenging anyone.

======

Very good question.  We all know how the Pope reacted.  Cardinal Stepinac is now well on his way to becoming a Roman Catholic saint!

Orthodoc
« Last Edit: June 18, 2004, 06:20:16 PM by Orthodoc »
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2004, 07:53:02 PM »
Ah, maybe the alithea has some small thing to do with the current state of the GOA here??  Just, um, maybe?

Thanks for, um, maybe,  proving the point, Brendan03

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Offline Fr. David

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2004, 08:17:53 PM »
Somebody want to put the "alithea" (whatever that is) into context for us non-native Gk. speakers?

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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2004, 08:32:01 PM »
Somebody want to put the "alithea" (whatever that is) into context for us non-native Gk. speakers?

Pedro...un hombre que sabe que no es cort+¬s hacer bromas en idiomas no conocidas por todos....

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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2004, 02:45:05 AM »
Quote
Oh, and let's not forget that most American converts are fanatically
misograecist despite being zealous Russophiles (seriously, some of
these sad people are so fanatically pro-Russian that they'd probably
give you their bodies if you told them you were Russian...).

I think that is more perception than reality.  I see a lot of converts at Saint Anthony's.  But the OCA and ROCOR have down much more to reach out to converts than the GOA has, so it is to be expected that a larger number of converts gravitate towards more Russian things.  But then again I guess I'm baffled by it all, to me there is just Orthodoxy.... since the sping of Orthodoxy closest to me is in Greek, I've worked to learn Greek....if rather than living in AZ I lived just a short drive from Jordanville I would "russicized".....I think its about oppertunity more than ethnic bias - but the sorry state of the GOA isn't helping to give the Greeks a good name....

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2004, 06:07:22 AM »
Why don't you kids start a topic elsewhere on the "sorry state of the GOA". We could compare it with, say, the great state of Russian Orthodoxy here with the MP, OCA, ROCA, RAOC, ROCIE, etal. as the comparative standard...

Demetri
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline ambrosemzv

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2004, 09:27:11 AM »
Photios, Demetri:

Se kalo sas!  HOW DARE YOU?

Photios, I have the effrontery to suggest that the massacre of Kosovar Muslims may not be justified, just as the current oppression of Kosovar Orthodox by Muslims is unjustifiable, and you respond with a quote implying that I should not be Orthodox, and labeling me as "ultra-liberal!"  And Demetri responds with a "hear!  hear!"  HOW DARE YOU!

from a discussion:

Native converts from Western, liberal countries and societies (like
the U.S., for instance) are always like that. I've always said --
and I continue to say -- that it'd be better off for these people to
have never converted to Orthodoxy in the first place.

First of all, it doesn't even suit them to convert if they've decided
to retain their ultra-liberal, multi-cultural worldviews, which are
all products of the secular and decadent West and completely foreign
to Eastern Orthodoxy.

The latter accusation is particularly laughable.  Just ask those on this board of a left-leaning political persuasion with whom I have debated (though I would never have the unmitigated arrogance to question their Orthodoxy because of their support for the Democratic political party!).

And if this uncharitable arrogance is, in your view, consistent with or allowed by Orthodox Christianity, then I guess I would not want to be included as a fellow-traveller with you, in any case.  THAT'S what you think is Orthodox?

You owe me an apology.

And I'd like some clarification from the moderators if this kind of insulting behavior is allowed.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2004, 09:38:13 AM by ambrosemzv »
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne comprend pas.  -Pascal

Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2004, 12:01:50 PM »
I don't get why you have this "Russian vs. Greek" complex, Demetri.  The fact that the GOA has some problems has nothing to do with the Russians.  And there is a difference between disliking various happenings within the GOA and being anti-Greek.  Calling me the latter would be absurd as I spend the entire morning today attending liturgy and Orthros that were all in Greek and that my favorite place in the world uses all Greek.  

And if you want to bring Russian splinter groups into this, fair fair there are what a dozen or so "True" Churches in Greece?  And all of the Russian groups except ROCOR, the MP and OCA are universally agreed upon to be schismatics.  And as time goes on it appears the rift between the MP and ROCOR will be healed.  But I still don't get why you want to make this into a Russian vs. Greek thing....

Offline Robert

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Re:Bosnian Serbs Admit Massacre of Muslims
« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2004, 12:09:26 PM »
Wow, this is getting out of hand. I'm closing this before it degenerates any further.