Author Topic: Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan  (Read 4985 times)

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Offline Bogoliubtsy

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Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« on: June 11, 2004, 06:37:37 PM »
His Eminence Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to the Widow of President Reagan

On behalf of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, His Eminence Metropolitan Laurus expressed his condolences to the widow of President Reagan. In his letter, His Eminence Metropolitan Laurus noted that the Russian emigration will always be thankful to the late President for his labors, thanks to which the Cold War ended in a peaceful, Christian manner. In his conclusion, His Eminence Vladyka wrote: May the Lord grant eternal peace to President Reagan, and to you and yours, His consolation in this difficult time."


http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/01newstucture/pagesen/news04/rreagan.html
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Offline JoeZollars

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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2004, 02:50:39 PM »
Good for Vladyka LAURUS.

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Offline Ebor

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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2004, 04:07:32 PM »
That was a very kind and gracious thing to do.  

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Offline David

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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2004, 04:10:23 PM »
Yes...from what I remember Reagan was one of the last presidents who regularly consulted with the religious leaders of the nation.  I'm glad to see Met. LAURUS honor him so.
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Offline spartacus

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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2004, 01:30:16 AM »
I noticed an Orthodox Bishop at Reagan's official funeral in the national Cathedral...could not see who it was though....anybody know?

Offline Orthodoc

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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2004, 02:59:55 AM »
[I noticed an Orthodox Bishop at Reagan's official funeral in the national Cathedral...could not see who it was though....anybody know?]

Greek Orthodox Archbishop Demetrius

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Offline TomS

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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2004, 10:11:42 AM »
Chalk another one up for the GOA!

Offline Ebor

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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2004, 11:20:37 AM »
On the EO newsgroup there's already grexing about Archbishop Demetrios being present was "Breaking the canons".  Grrr.  Sorry, but that's just plain uncharitable.

 The Archbishop went to a funeral.  It was an act of kindness and charity.

Ebor
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Offline Ben

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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2004, 12:58:40 PM »
There are canons that say a Bishop can't attend a funeral in a non-Orthodox Church?
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Offline TomS

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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2004, 01:31:23 PM »
There are canons that say a Bishop can't attend a funeral in a non-Orthodox Church?

There are canons that say that an Orthodox is not supposed to pray with "heretics". And prayers were offered during the service.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2004, 01:38:36 PM by Tom+ú »

Offline Ben

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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2004, 01:35:13 PM »
Well I guess the bishops should follow the canons.
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Offline Anastasios

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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2004, 02:08:20 PM »
Orthodox are allowed to attend Non-Orthodox funerals, just not pray with them.  This is pointed out even in the journal Orthodox Tradition from the True Orthodox Church of Greece.  One has an obligation to show honor to his deceased loved ones, especially his parents.

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Offline Anastasios

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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2004, 02:10:37 PM »
Ebor,

Please either post my response or point me to said newsgroup. I would like to point out that they are just plain wrong.

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Offline Ben

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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2004, 02:14:59 PM »
Orthodox are allowed to attend Non-Orthodox funerals, just not pray with them.  This is pointed out even in the journal Orthodox Tradition from the True Orthodox Church of Greece.  One has an obligation to show honor to his deceased loved ones, especially his parents.

anastasios

Ah ok...thanks for the clarification anastasios.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2004, 02:55:16 PM »
My remarks on the metropolitan's gesture - a kind one from a kind man - are on the blog.
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Offline Anastasios

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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2004, 03:44:03 PM »
Serge,

Again, if you are going to reference things on your blog, please post a link so people who access this thread in 2 months or a year will not have to search the archives of your blog to find it.

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Offline Ebor

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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2004, 07:48:49 PM »
Ebor,

Please either post my response or point me to said newsgroup. I would like to point out that they are just plain wrong.

anastasios

It's in the alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox newsgroup under the thread  "Orthodox Representation at Reagan Funeral"  If you go to Google and search in "groups" it should get you there.  The link I got for the search is about a paragraph long.  

Just to be clear, one poster asked if it wasn't breaking the canons about not praying with heterodox and another replied "Yes it does violate the Canons,  but when did that ever bother anyone? Canons are violated regularly" It read like complaining to me. Newsgroups can be chaotic, in case you've never been to one.

Ebor
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Offline The young fogey

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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2004, 08:55:44 PM »
OK, for all posterity here is the blog link for remarks on the metropolitan's kind act.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2004, 06:41:37 AM by Serge »
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Offline katherine 2001

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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2004, 10:34:59 PM »
I've even heard a ROCOR priest say the same thing that Anastasios say and give quite a long explanation what is required to be "praying" with heretics.  It is not just attending a service with heterodox.

Offline The young fogey

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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2004, 10:55:02 PM »
But wasn't the context of that 'praying with heretics' business the issue of participating in the services (as in receiving Communion) of people who aren't really Christians - the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses of their day? (And they did exist - some like the Gnostic Church from Iraq still do.)
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Offline Anastasios

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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2004, 11:12:14 PM »
The use of the term heretic is debatable in Church history.  If you look at some of the canons pertaining to the issue, some of the groups listed as heretics were people like the Manicheans who were not Christians.  Yet groups like Arians were put into the category of "schismatics."  Yet we know that Arianism was a heresy.  So the word obviously was used different times in different ways.

From an Orthodox point of view I think it would be hard to argue that Protestants are not heretics.  But certainly they are not heretics of the same class as those denying core tenents of the faith.  I believe St. Theodore of Studios said that there were heretics rightly called and heretics by extension.  Certainly Protestants and Roman Catholics are not anywhere near the same level as Mormons or Gnostics and they should not be treated as if they were!

As for the definition of praying with heretics being not communing, in my readings of the canons I have found no indication that that assertion--made by some Orthodox authors today--is accurate.  Any prayer form was forbidden with non-Orthodox (even RC's held a modified view of this; until around Vatican II the only prayer that could be said with a Protestant was the Our Father I believe).

So a good rule of thumb would be that one should not generally participate in the liturgical rites of non-Orthodox but that if there is an occasion that would make it appropirate to be there (wedding, funeral, etc)., that it would be okay to attend as long as one is clear that there is a difference between Orthodox and non-Orthodox.  Metropolitan Anthony (Bloom) frequented Anglican services such as consecrations, but did not participate: he ommitted signing himself at blessings for instance.  Such I think is an appropriate and sober position.

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Offline Anastasios

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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2004, 11:13:45 PM »
I would also like to add that at times in the history of the Church there was communio in sacris (sp?) between Orthodox and Catholics. c.f. Timothy (Kallistos) Ware, Eustratios Argenti.  While we can argue that such isolated acts were wrong, we certainly should take them seriously and apply that to those today who would remove God's grace from a bishop for even the most minor infraction.

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Offline Ben

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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2004, 11:29:35 PM »
(even RC's held a modified view of this; until around Vatican II the only prayer that could be said with a Protestant was the Our Father I believe).

In fact, the 1917 Canon Law strictly forbade Catholics praying with Non-Catholics.

I remember this very kind woman at my old SSPX chapel who homeschooled her children along with a few other Catholic and Protestant families. She told me that during prayer time, at the start of the day or before the lunch, she and the other Catholic parents made sure they and their children did not pray with the Non-Catholic children and parents. It sounds odd, well to me it did, but she was simply being a good traditionalist Catholic.

Interestingly, many Sedevacantists state that Pope John Paul II praying with Non-Catholics automaticaly makes him a heretic, and thus not the Pope.

Now of course with the new Canon Law (1983), the whole idea of Catholics not being allowed to pray with non-Catholics was abolished.
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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2004, 04:34:41 AM »
Orthodox are allowed to attend Non-Orthodox funerals, just not pray with them.  This is pointed out even in the journal Orthodox Tradition from the True Orthodox Church of Greece.  One has an obligation to show honor to his deceased loved ones, especially his parents.

anastasios

here here Anastasios.  I know of very hardline traditional Priests who attend the funerals of heterodox family members and co-workers.  Praying with heretics refers to actually praying with them, not just politely sitting there during the service.  

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Offline JoeZollars

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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2004, 04:39:11 AM »
In fact, the 1917 Canon Law strictly forbade Catholics praying with Non-Catholics.

I remember this very kind woman at my old SSPX chapel who homeschooled her children along with a few other Catholic and Protestant families. She told me that during prayer time, at the start of the day or before the lunch, she and the other Catholic parents made sure they and their children did not pray with the Non-Catholic children and parents. It sounds odd, well to me it did, but she was simply being a good traditionalist Catholic.

Interestingly, many Sedevacantists state that Pope John Paul II praying with Non-Catholics automaticaly makes him a heretic, and thus not the Pope.

Now of course with the new Canon Law (1983), the whole idea of Catholics not being allowed to pray with non-Catholics was abolished.

I remember similar occurances Ben.  However even the most hardline of SSPV Priests I have personally spoken with (and SSPX, CMRI and others) would not tell one to not attend the wedding or funeral of a loved one.  Not participate yes, but not attend would never be suggested.  It's downright rude and frankly unchristian.  

However there is a great deal of difference between pre-meal prayers and funerals and weddings.  I personally don't see a problem with it, so long as the heterodox are praying with us and not the other way around.  IOW, as long as it is Orthodox prayers being offered and not say Roman or fundagelical ones, there is no problem IMO.  If we are going to say that they cannot pray with us before meals, why do we allow them to attend our churches?

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Offline The young fogey

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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2004, 06:57:58 AM »
Quote
If you look at some of the canons pertaining to the issue, some of the groups listed as heretics were people like the Manicheans who were not Christians.  Yet groups like Arians were put into the category of "schismatics."

Thank you!  

Quote
I would also like to add that at times in the history of the Church there was communio in sacris (sp?) between Orthodox and Catholics. c.f. Timothy (Kallistos) Ware, Eustratios Argenti.

And in the Middle East there still is between Arabs: Melkite and Greek Orthodox of Antioch.

Quote
...until around Vatican II the only prayer that could be said with a Protestant was the Our Father I believe

Right.

I imagine most of the ethnics born into the Orthodox tradition don't give this 'praying with heretics' jazz a second thought. It's the people who think they've got something to prove who've got their knickers in a twist.

Quote
I remember this very kind woman at my old SSPX chapel who homeschooled her children along with a few other Catholic and Protestant families. She told me that during prayer time, at the start of the day or before the lunch, she and the other Catholic parents made sure they and their children did not pray with the Non-Catholic children and parents. It sounds odd, well to me it did, but she was simply being a good traditionalist Catholic.

I've read elsewhere that the Our Father was allowed, so that dear lady, possibly out of ignorance, was wrong, not following the mind of the RC Church circa 1917.

Quote
even the most hardline of SSPV Priests I have personally spoken with (and SSPX, CMRI and others)

Personally? You must have run up the odometer on your old car, or logged a lot of Greyhound, railway or frequent-flyer miles. I think the nearest SSPV church to you is in Cincinnati and CMRI in Spokane with a few churches clustered in the West, not the Midwest.

I know the SSPX are relatively close in St Marys and also you've been to Dickinson, Texas where they're active.

So did the sedevacantist priests all have a convention in Parsons? Or did you talk to them on the phone, or e-mail them, or just read their websites?
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Offline ania

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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2004, 09:54:56 AM »
So, does it count if you go to a funeral or a wedding, and while everyone else is saying their heretical prayers & you sit praying for the soul of the departed in other words, does that count against the cannons... ? I'm just curious, as, since someone is supposed to be in constant prayer, how can you go to a church service and not pray while everyone around you prays?
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Offline Anastasios

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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2004, 10:21:16 AM »
here here Anastasios.  I know of very hardline traditional Priests who attend the funerals of heterodox family members and co-workers.  Praying with heretics refers to actually praying with them, not just politely sitting there during the service.  

Joe Zollars

Right. I didn't say you could't attend! Sheesh! I said go and pay your respects.

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Offline Anastasios

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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2004, 10:24:23 AM »
So, does it count if you go to a funeral or a wedding, and while everyone else is saying their heretical prayers & you sit praying for the soul of the departed in other words, does that count against the cannons... ? I'm just curious, as, since someone is supposed to be in constant prayer, how can you go to a church service and not pray while everyone around you prays?  

You should pray for the departed souls in your own way.  The reason the fathers made these canons was not to be "hardliners" but in the case of say a Baptist funeral.  Could you honestly pray with the minister when he says, "and now because so and so accepted the Lord Jesus Christ, WE KNOW he is Heaven. Thank you Jesus, amen."

The canons were instituted as practical guidelines to keep people out of trouble, not legalistic sticks to beat people down with.  Everything I said above should be seen through that prism. Sorry for not making this clear before.

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Offline gregory2

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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2004, 10:46:17 AM »
Metropolitan Herman also sent condolences to Mrs. Reagan on behalf of the OCA.  A copy of the letter is on the OCA website www.oca.org

On a tangential topic, is there an official relationship between the OCA and ROCOR now?  i.e., I'm not following it too closely, but has the schism been healed?
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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2004, 11:25:34 AM »
Metropolitan Herman also sent condolences to Mrs. Reagan on behalf of the OCA.  A copy of the letter is on the OCA website www.oca.org

On a tangential topic, is there an official relationship between the OCA and ROCOR now?  i.e., I'm not following it too closely, but has the schism been healed?

In a word?  No.

These things take time.  ROCOR and Moscow (MP) had a nice get together though a few weeks back or so.

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Re:Metropolitan Laurus Sends Condolences to Nancy Reagan
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2004, 11:35:44 AM »
Patience everyone patience.  Such things almost always take a long time to develop.  

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