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podkarpatska
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« Reply #45 on: May 27, 2011, 05:16:05 PM »

Quote from: Ineffabilis Deus
We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.

Some waffling might be done on original sin vs ancestral sin in Catholic-Orthodox understanding, but there isn't going to be any negotiation on the substantive point. It's been dogmatically defined, and along with Munificentissimus Deus is one of the two explicit uses of Papal infallibility in the wake of Vatican I.

As I said, I tend to follow the indications from the Holy Father, and do believe that all the legalists on both sides are going to be deeply disappointed.

Also I think both Alcuin and Wyatt need to do something about your understanding of Dogma in the Catholic Church.  I don't see it as much more illuminated than many Orthodox believer's understandings of it that I've seen over the years.

You can do the things with it that you do if you are teaching a systematic theology class but if you are living through the fullness of the Body of Christ and I include all EO Churches and OO Churches in that, then what you two are doing is far too rigid and has never been part of the living Church.

The Vatican I promulgation of Papal Infallibility, in defining a dogma, refers to it as a proposition of faith or morals "to be believed by the whole Church" and which is "irreformable". I think that's a pretty good definition of what dogma is.

If that were the starting point used by the theologians of your church most closely associated with the Vatican and recent popes, there would be no continuing dialog with the Orthodox. (that may be the view of some like Cardinal Mahoney as referenced in the story told yesterday by Maria on another thread, but that is another whole issue.) The first meeting would have been the last and it would have lasted 1 minute or less. While most of the Roman Catholics posting here do not want to admit it, Elijahmaria is on to something with her point about people on both sides being surprised in the end.

I guess you know a lot about what would be.




I have my direct sources on the North American Dialog. Anyway, if you read their papers you would rather quickly find out that the Catholic participants do not bring such an absolutist view of Vatican 1 to the table.
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podkarpatska
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« Reply #46 on: May 27, 2011, 05:18:03 PM »


If that were the starting point used by the theologians of your church most closely associated with the Vatican and recent popes, there would be no continuing dialog with the Orthodox. (that may be the view of some like Cardinal Mahoney as referenced in the story told yesterday by Maria on another thread, but that is another whole issue.) The first meeting would have been the last and it would have lasted 1 minute or less. While most of the Roman Catholics posting here do not want to admit it, Elijahmaria is on to something with her point about people on both sides being surprised in the end.

I think you are in a position to have a very good sense of these things.  Yes.  Resumption of communion will not make many of the Catholics you see here very happy at all:  No more happy than many of the Orthodox.
In my mind the type of reunion you believe is going to take place could never happen. Christ promised that the gates of hell would never prevail against the Church. If the post-schism dogmas of our Church were all of a sudden thrown out or else it was admitted that they were not universally binding that would be the very definition of the gates of hell prevailing. Since dogmas are universal truths, if our Church reneged on any of them or said that they were not universally binding, that would either mean that our Church was in error when defining those dogmas or was in error in renouncing them. We know that our Church cannot err on such matters so such a reunion is impossible.

Dogmas my young padawan, are capable of being, shall we say, interpreted for lack of a better word.
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« Reply #47 on: May 27, 2011, 05:18:59 PM »


In my mind the type of reunion you believe is going to take place could never happen. Christ promised that the gates of hell would never prevail against the Church. If the post-schism dogmas of our Church were all of a sudden thrown out or else it was admitted that they were not universally binding that would be the very definition of the gates of hell prevailing. Since dogmas are universal truths, if our Church reneged on any of them or said that they were not universally binding, that would either mean that our Church was in error when defining those dogmas or was in error in renouncing them. We know that our Church cannot err on such matters so such a reunion is impossible.

 laugh laugh laugh

Our Oriental and Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters hardly qualify as the Gates of Hell, Wyatt!!

I don't expect that Pope Benedict expects that the post-schism dogmas are going to be thrown out.  I don't think the Orthodox hierarchs engaging in the dialogue think that either or they'd say so and discontinue talks.

So I would expect that something else entirely is going to happen.  But I do not expect that the dogmatic definitions as they have been constructed in the west are going to be "forced" on the east in any form that you will recognize.

I expect that we'll get beneath the surface of the literal words and seek meaning and truth and we may even agree to disagree over things that are not central to the credal truths.

As time goes on, who knows what might be possible with full Catholic unity in the world.

I don't think either side should be about the business of dictating words at the moment.

PS: I also wanted to mention that there are also ways that one can ask another to accept an element of the faith.  Perhaps the west will ask the east to give religious assent, meaning that they will accept the belief as a belief of the west until such time as there can be more of a meeting of the minds and hearts.

There are many more ways of looking at all of this other than in terms of some literal, legalistic and logistical lock-down where nobody can move.  That is a Dead Faith...not a living one.

« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 05:27:58 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: May 27, 2011, 05:30:05 PM »

Our Oriental and Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters hardly qualify as the Gates of Hell, Wyatt!!
If they expect us to throw out our dogmas then that is exactly what they are.

I don't expect that Pope Benedict expects that the post-schism dogmas are going to be thrown out.
Of course not. He wouldn't be Pope if he held such views.

I don't think the Orthodox hierarchs engaging in the dialogue think that either or they'd say so and discontinue talks.
That's good to know. I hope you are right about that.

So I would expect that something else entirely is going to happen.  But I do not expect that the dogmatic definitions as they have been constructed in the west are going to be "forced" on the east in any form that you will recognize.
I never said anything about us "forcing" anything on them, but since they are dogmas they are not optional. They can feel free to embrace them or remain out of communion. I think the fact that these talks have been going on for awhile and there is still no full communion is proof that neither side is willing to budge as much as you think they are. There is such a thing as being overly optimistic.

I expect that we'll get beneath the surface of the literal words and seek meaning and truth and we may even agree to disagree over things that are not central to the credal truths.
One is not free to pick and choose which dogmas they are going to accept. The very fact that a teaching is a dogma means one must believe in it.

As time goes on, who knows what might be possible with full Catholic unity in the world.
Full Catholic unity requires full Catholic belief. Anything else is a counterfeit unity.

I don't think either side should be about the business of dictating words at the moment.
Dogma is more than just words
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 05:30:36 PM by Wyatt » Logged
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« Reply #49 on: May 27, 2011, 05:49:05 PM »

Dogma is more than just words

Yes.  It is the definition of a truth that is a mystery.  It is the best effort of the Church universal to try to put the finest point possible on a teaching so that there is as little room for error as possible.

Dogma means NOTHING without meaning and the meaning often defies words.  So the words that are there are the best we can do for the time being.  Dogma never means that words cannot change:  Dogma means that meaning and truth and revelation never changes, because it is not our word but the Word of God that matters.

In a re-united Church, there will be things that have been done over the last thousand years, on both sides,  that will be revisited by the Church universal.  That thought does not frighten me in the least.
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« Reply #50 on: May 27, 2011, 06:20:00 PM »

I have to say I really like your attitude, Wyatt.
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« Reply #51 on: May 27, 2011, 06:35:18 PM »

Dogma is more than just words

Yes.  It is the definition of a truth that is a mystery.  It is the best effort of the Church universal to try to put the finest point possible on a teaching so that there is as little room for error as possible.

Dogma means NOTHING without meaning and the meaning often defies words.  So the words that are there are the best we can do for the time being.  Dogma never means that words cannot change:  Dogma means that meaning and truth and revelation never changes, because it is not our word but the Word of God that matters.

In a re-united Church, there will be things that have been done over the last thousand years, on both sides,  that will be revisited by the Church universal.  That thought does not frighten me in the least.
Yet, obviously, the words themselves are important too, not just the meaning behind them. If this was not the case then the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox would already be reunited as it is commonly believed that, while they use different wording, they profess the same Christology. However, agreeing to disagree on wording is not enough. The wording of Chalcedon must be embraced before reunion can resume (or the wording before Chalcedon depending on which team you are on Wink ). In the same way I don't think we can just throw away the past one thousand years of theological language and terminology to appease the Greeks.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 06:41:20 PM by Wyatt » Logged
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« Reply #52 on: May 27, 2011, 08:02:09 PM »

I have to say I really like your attitude, Wyatt.

Indeed you should ...

“He said to him: 'Just this once accept our community, we ask nothing else of you, after that you can go where you wish.' The Saint [Theodore] answered him and said: ‘That which you have said is the same as if you were to say, let me cut your head off just this once and then you can go wherever you like!’ Things are not as small as they sometimes appear.”
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« Reply #53 on: May 27, 2011, 08:47:33 PM »


IF...theoretically the RC didn't require all the items stated above....I think all the RC's should just relinquish all the phony dogmas and simply return, like the prodigal son, to their "father" whom they abandoned - Orthodoxy.

angel


We are the Orthodox Church. Smiley
Oh, I guess I was confused by all your incorrect doctrine.
Acctually, it's your errors that have you in confusion. Look what a muddled mess your thinking is.
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« Reply #54 on: May 27, 2011, 09:04:08 PM »


IF...theoretically the RC didn't require all the items stated above....I think all the RC's should just relinquish all the phony dogmas and simply return, like the prodigal son, to their "father" whom they abandoned - Orthodoxy.

angel


We are the Orthodox Church. Smiley
Oh, I guess I was confused by all your incorrect doctrine.
Acctually, it's your errors that have you in confusion. Look what a muddled mess your thinking is.
You'll have to explain to me what is muddled about refusing to see a falible human being as unfallible when he wears a special hat and sits in a special chair.
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« Reply #55 on: May 27, 2011, 09:05:43 PM »


IF...theoretically the RC didn't require all the items stated above....I think all the RC's should just relinquish all the phony dogmas and simply return, like the prodigal son, to their "father" whom they abandoned - Orthodoxy.

angel


We are the Orthodox Church. Smiley
Oh, I guess I was confused by all your incorrect doctrine.
Acctually, it's your errors that have you in confusion. Look what a muddled mess your thinking is.
You'll have to explain to me what is muddled about refusing to see a falible human being as unfallible when he wears a special hat and sits in a special chair.

These stupid dialogues are the reason I try to stay out of these debates now. Any serious conversations that could be held are for naught if it's interspersed with petty insults and sarcastic ad hominems. Yes, we do both think we're the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Now talk about it. An assertion of truth is not an argument. I know you all know this and do it for spite, but that doesn't make it any less annoying.

[/rant]
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« Reply #56 on: May 27, 2011, 09:09:34 PM »


IF...theoretically the RC didn't require all the items stated above....I think all the RC's should just relinquish all the phony dogmas and simply return, like the prodigal son, to their "father" whom they abandoned - Orthodoxy.

angel


We are the Orthodox Church. Smiley
Oh, I guess I was confused by all your incorrect doctrine.
Acctually, it's your errors that have you in confusion. Look what a muddled mess your thinking is.
You'll have to explain to me what is muddled about refusing to see a falible human being as unfallible when he wears a special hat and sits in a special chair.

These stupid dialogues are the reason I try to stay out of these debates now. Any serious conversations that could be held are for naught if it's interspersed with petty insults and sarcastic ad hominems. Yes, we do both think we're the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Now talk about it. An assertion of truth is not an argument. I know you all know this and do it for spite, but that doesn't make it any less annoying.

[/rant]

What he said!
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« Reply #57 on: May 27, 2011, 09:11:50 PM »

Dogma is more than just words

Yes.  It is the definition of a truth that is a mystery.  It is the best effort of the Church universal to try to put the finest point possible on a teaching so that there is as little room for error as possible.

Dogma means NOTHING without meaning and the meaning often defies words.  So the words that are there are the best we can do for the time being.  Dogma never means that words cannot change:  Dogma means that meaning and truth and revelation never changes, because it is not our word but the Word of God that matters.

In a re-united Church, there will be things that have been done over the last thousand years, on both sides,  that will be revisited by the Church universal.  That thought does not frighten me in the least.
Yet, obviously, the words themselves are important too, not just the meaning behind them. If this was not the case then the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox would already be reunited as it is commonly believed that, while they use different wording, they profess the same Christology. However, agreeing to disagree on wording is not enough. The wording of Chalcedon must be embraced before reunion can resume (or the wording before Chalcedon depending on which team you are on Wink ). In the same way I don't think we can just throw away the past one thousand years of theological language and terminology to appease the Greeks.

I don't think you've been reading enough of the OO section of the Forum.  I don't think you realize how close they are to resumption of communion.  It won't be long at all, as these things go.
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« Reply #58 on: May 27, 2011, 09:18:31 PM »


IF...theoretically the RC didn't require all the items stated above....I think all the RC's should just relinquish all the phony dogmas and simply return, like the prodigal son, to their "father" whom they abandoned - Orthodoxy.

angel


We are the Orthodox Church. Smiley
Oh, I guess I was confused by all your incorrect doctrine.
Acctually, it's your errors that have you in confusion. Look what a muddled mess your thinking is.
You'll have to explain to me what is muddled about refusing to see a falible human being as unfallible when he wears a special hat and sits in a special chair.

These stupid dialogues are the reason I try to stay out of these debates now. Any serious conversations that could be held are for naught if it's interspersed with petty insults and sarcastic ad hominems. Yes, we do both think we're the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Now talk about it. An assertion of truth is not an argument. I know you all know this and do it for spite, but that doesn't make it any less annoying.

[/rant]

You're absolutely right. It is an issue I must deal with, and I apologize for my part, both to Papist, to RC's in general, and to those who had to read it.
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« Reply #59 on: May 27, 2011, 09:19:29 PM »

Dogma is more than just words

Yes.  It is the definition of a truth that is a mystery.  It is the best effort of the Church universal to try to put the finest point possible on a teaching so that there is as little room for error as possible.

Dogma means NOTHING without meaning and the meaning often defies words.  So the words that are there are the best we can do for the time being.  Dogma never means that words cannot change:  Dogma means that meaning and truth and revelation never changes, because it is not our word but the Word of God that matters.

In a re-united Church, there will be things that have been done over the last thousand years, on both sides,  that will be revisited by the Church universal.  That thought does not frighten me in the least.
Yet, obviously, the words themselves are important too, not just the meaning behind them. If this was not the case then the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox would already be reunited as it is commonly believed that, while they use different wording, they profess the same Christology. However, agreeing to disagree on wording is not enough. The wording of Chalcedon must be embraced before reunion can resume (or the wording before Chalcedon depending on which team you are on Wink ). In the same way I don't think we can just throw away the past one thousand years of theological language and terminology to appease the Greeks.

I don't think you've been reading enough of the OO section of the Forum.  I don't think you realize how close they are to resumption of communion.  It won't be long at all, as these things go.
My understanding at this point is that it is largely administrative. Not that that isn't a big obsticle.
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« Reply #60 on: May 27, 2011, 09:29:32 PM »


IF...theoretically the RC didn't require all the items stated above....I think all the RC's should just relinquish all the phony dogmas and simply return, like the prodigal son, to their "father" whom they abandoned - Orthodoxy.

angel


We are the Orthodox Church. Smiley
Oh, I guess I was confused by all your incorrect doctrine.
Acctually, it's your errors that have you in confusion. Look what a muddled mess your thinking is.
You'll have to explain to me what is muddled about refusing to see a falible human being as unfallible when he wears a special hat and sits in a special chair.

These stupid dialogues are the reason I try to stay out of these debates now. Any serious conversations that could be held are for naught if it's interspersed with petty insults and sarcastic ad hominems. Yes, we do both think we're the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Now talk about it. An assertion of truth is not an argument. I know you all know this and do it for spite, but that doesn't make it any less annoying.

[/rant]

This is just the page 2 lag.  Expect actual argument to pick up by page 3, anything past page 5 will just be more of this, and a year after it dies Wyatt will resurrect this thread to complain about how we hate Roman Catholics around here.

Different track:

Not to blow my own trumpet, but this little theoretical exercise has turned out pretty much as I predicted in my reply at the beginning of the thread.  Note how fast this

...the Roman Catholic Church didn't require the Eastern Orthodox Church to accept our definition of primacy in terms of the role of the Bishop of Rome and didn't require them to embrace the filioque or any of the post-schism doctrines/dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church, would you all be in communion with us?

became this


I never said anything about us "forcing" anything on them, but since they are dogmas they are not optional. They can feel free to embrace them or remain out of communion. I think the fact that these talks have been going on for awhile and there is still no full communion is proof that neither side is willing to budge as much as you think they are. There is such a thing as being overly optimistic.

.

"If you really loved me you'd quit smoking altogether." - many a poor man's wife.   "If you really loved us you'd adopt the filioque and Immaculate Conception and our papal supremacy."- Roman Catholic Ecumenical approach.
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« Reply #61 on: May 27, 2011, 09:56:17 PM »

to complain about how we hate Roman Catholics around here.

Hasn't anyone ever suggested a better way to hate Roman Catholics?

Wink

Different track:

Not to blow my own trumpet, but this little theoretical exercise has turned out pretty much as I predicted in my reply at the beginning of the thread.  Note how fast this

...the Roman Catholic Church didn't require the Eastern Orthodox Church to accept our definition of primacy in terms of the role of the Bishop of Rome and didn't require them to embrace the filioque or any of the post-schism doctrines/dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church, would you all be in communion with us?

became this

I never said anything about us "forcing" anything on them, but since they are dogmas they are not optional. They can feel free to embrace them or remain out of communion. I think the fact that these talks have been going on for awhile and there is still no full communion is proof that neither side is willing to budge as much as you think they are. There is such a thing as being overly optimistic.

Seems to me that all your quotes show is that Wyatt's original question was purely hypothetical.

"If you really loved me you'd quit smoking altogether." - many a poor man's wife.   "If you really loved us you'd adopt the filioque and Immaculate Conception and our papal supremacy."- Roman Catholic Ecumenical approach.

I'll grant you that some Catholics speak that way, but what Wyatt actually said was "They can feel free to embrace them or remain out of communion." Not the same at all.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 10:01:54 PM by Peter J » Logged

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« Reply #62 on: May 27, 2011, 10:19:37 PM »

"Dogma:... a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church " - Merriam-Webster

Elijahmaria, the very definition of dogma means that one cannot say "Well, I can hold this as dogma, but we can be one Church and you can disagree with me on it."  Now, you could say that one half of the Church doesn't half to emphasize a particular dogma, but to say that they don't have to hold it would be to deny it is a dogma.  I would appreciate it if you would stop redefining words to fit into your unusual and inane view that the Orthodox Church and the Roman church are going to reunite any time soon.  In all reality, they are probably at least a century from union.

As to EO and OO union, that is a lot closer.  However, other than just administrative, there are other problems, for instance the fact that - to my understanding - a significant number of Ethiopian Christians oppose reunion, and there are many more tradionalist EO that also oppose them.  No one wants to heal one schism just to have another schism take place, that would defeat the purpose.
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« Reply #63 on: May 27, 2011, 10:27:33 PM »

"Dogma:... a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church " - Merriam-Webster

Exactly.

On the other hand, I don't have a problem with the Melkite Initiative (Zohgby Initiative) because the Melkites don't consider the Immaculate Conception, etc., to be dogmas, so it makes sense for them to want to be in full communion with Christians who don't accept those teachings.
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« Reply #64 on: May 27, 2011, 10:29:45 PM »

to complain about how we hate Roman Catholics around here.

Hasn't anyone ever suggested a better way to hate Roman Catholics?

Wink

Well, personally, I subscribe to the Ice Cream and Donuts til diabetic coma form of hate, but it hasn't caught on yet.

Different track:

Not to blow my own trumpet, but this little theoretical exercise has turned out pretty much as I predicted in my reply at the beginning of the thread.  Note how fast this

...the Roman Catholic Church didn't require the Eastern Orthodox Church to accept our definition of primacy in terms of the role of the Bishop of Rome and didn't require them to embrace the filioque or any of the post-schism doctrines/dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church, would you all be in communion with us?

became this

I never said anything about us "forcing" anything on them, but since they are dogmas they are not optional. They can feel free to embrace them or remain out of communion. I think the fact that these talks have been going on for awhile and there is still no full communion is proof that neither side is willing to budge as much as you think they are. There is such a thing as being overly optimistic.
.

"If you really loved me you'd quit smoking altogether." - many a poor man's wife.   "If you really loved us you'd adopt the filioque and Immaculate Conception and our papal supremacy."- Roman Catholic Ecumenical approach.

Seems to me that all your quotes show is that Wyatt's original question was purely hypothetical.

Perhaps.  But it does illustrate a trend that happens once you go beyond the hypothetical, as the plight of the early Byzantine Catholic immigrants to America shows and the strain of the Anglican Ordinate's integration is showing now.  For the American BCs things seem to have improved for the moment, but there is always the possibility in the future of a Pope who isn't so kindly inclined.

The hypothetical situation might work in Europe and Asia where the Latin and Eastern churches each have a long history.  On our end of the pond I don't foresee things working out quite so harmoniously.  America is already the home of cafeteria religion, and the flood of people from one "jurisdiction" to the other would have our bishops and your cardinals fist-fighting at every synod (Roman Catholics coming this way to escape Papal supremacy and the IC, Orthodox going your way for cheeseburgers on Wednesday and fish on Friday).

Really, the only way reunion would work is if the Roman Church dropped ex cathedra infallibility in favor of ex conciliar and demoted the IC and filioque to the realm of theologuma.  Because, in the end, Wyatt is quite right- Dogma is not optional and one side or the other has to give.  Even in a hypothesis reality must be taken into account, you can't have a bishop who is the supreme authority of the Church only be supreme authority in a self contained area- that's sort of what got us all in this mess to begin with!
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« Reply #65 on: May 27, 2011, 10:37:11 PM »

to complain about how we hate Roman Catholics around here.

Hasn't anyone ever suggested a better way to hate Roman Catholics?


Grind their bones to make my bread?  laugh

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« Reply #66 on: May 27, 2011, 11:48:53 PM »


IF...theoretically the RC didn't require all the items stated above....I think all the RC's should just relinquish all the phony dogmas and simply return, like the prodigal son, to their "father" whom they abandoned - Orthodoxy.

angel


We are the Orthodox Church. Smiley
Oh, I guess I was confused by all your incorrect doctrine.
Acctually, it's your errors that have you in confusion. Look what a muddled mess your thinking is.
You'll have to explain to me what is muddled about refusing to see a falible human being as unfallible when he wears a special hat and sits in a special chair.
That is not only disrespectful and a mockery of the dogma of Papal Infallibility, but it is also inaccurate.
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« Reply #67 on: May 28, 2011, 10:54:24 AM »

Quote from: Ineffabilis Deus
We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.

Some waffling might be done on original sin vs ancestral sin in Catholic-Orthodox understanding, but there isn't going to be any negotiation on the substantive point. It's been dogmatically defined, and along with Munificentissimus Deus is one of the two explicit uses of Papal infallibility in the wake of Vatican I.

As I said, I tend to follow the indications from the Holy Father, and do believe that all the legalists on both sides are going to be deeply disappointed.

Also I think both Alcuin and Wyatt need to do something about your understanding of Dogma in the Catholic Church.  I don't see it as much more illuminated than many Orthodox believer's understandings of it that I've seen over the years.

You can do the things with it that you do if you are teaching a systematic theology class but if you are living through the fullness of the Body of Christ and I include all EO Churches and OO Churches in that, then what you two are doing is far too rigid and has never been part of the living Church.

The Vatican I promulgation of Papal Infallibility, in defining a dogma, refers to it as a proposition of faith or morals "to be believed by the whole Church" and which is "irreformable". I think that's a pretty good definition of what dogma is.

If that were the starting point used by the theologians of your church most closely associated with the Vatican and recent popes, there would be no continuing dialog with the Orthodox. (that may be the view of some like Cardinal Mahoney as referenced in the story told yesterday by Maria on another thread, but that is another whole issue.) The first meeting would have been the last and it would have lasted 1 minute or less. While most of the Roman Catholics posting here do not want to admit it, Elijahmaria is on to something with her point about people on both sides being surprised in the end.

I wasn't referring to the particular dogma of Papal infallibility, or any particular dogma. Just looking for a definition used for "dogma" as such.

Just to be clear though, if you believe reunion is going to happen, what particular dogmas do you think the Catholic Church is going to renege on?
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« Reply #68 on: May 28, 2011, 11:18:17 AM »

Christus resurrexit!

IF...theoretically the RC didn't require all the items stated above....I think all the RC's should just relinquish all the phony dogmas and simply return, like the prodigal son, to their "father" whom they abandoned - Orthodoxy.

angel


We are the Orthodox Church. Smiley
Oh, I guess I was confused by all your incorrect doctrine.
Acctually, it's your errors that have you in confusion. Look what a muddled mess your thinking is.
You'll have to explain to me what is muddled about refusing to see a falible human being as unfallible when he wears a special hat and sits in a special chair.
That is not only disrespectful and a mockery of the dogma of Papal Infallibility, but it is also inaccurate.
Yes, he doesn't wear the hat anymore.
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« Reply #69 on: May 28, 2011, 11:29:21 AM »

Christus resurrexit!

IF...theoretically the RC didn't require all the items stated above....I think all the RC's should just relinquish all the phony dogmas and simply return, like the prodigal son, to their "father" whom they abandoned - Orthodoxy.

angel


We are the Orthodox Church. Smiley
Oh, I guess I was confused by all your incorrect doctrine.
Acctually, it's your errors that have you in confusion. Look what a muddled mess your thinking is.
You'll have to explain to me what is muddled about refusing to see a falible human being as unfallible when he wears a special hat and sits in a special chair.
That is not only disrespectful and a mockery of the dogma of Papal Infallibility, but it is also inaccurate.
Yes, he doesn't wear the hat anymore.
Yes and no. He doesn't wear the Papal tiara anymore (although I hear that may change soon thanks to a very kind and generous gift from you guys), but he still wears a miter.
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« Reply #70 on: May 28, 2011, 12:32:25 PM »

Christus resurrexit!

IF...theoretically the RC didn't require all the items stated above....I think all the RC's should just relinquish all the phony dogmas and simply return, like the prodigal son, to their "father" whom they abandoned - Orthodoxy.

angel


We are the Orthodox Church. Smiley
Oh, I guess I was confused by all your incorrect doctrine.
Acctually, it's your errors that have you in confusion. Look what a muddled mess your thinking is.
You'll have to explain to me what is muddled about refusing to see a falible human being as unfallible when he wears a special hat and sits in a special chair.
That is not only disrespectful and a mockery of the dogma of Papal Infallibility, but it is also inaccurate.
Yes, he doesn't wear the hat anymore.
Yes and no. He doesn't wear the Papal tiara anymore (although I hear that may change soon thanks to a very kind and generous gift from you guys), but he still wears a miter.
A miter is hardly funny (though I'm sure Stashko doesn't like your design), and not a problem.  The pretentious tiara is a different story.

And any Orthodox can do some fool thing without implicating the rest of us.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #71 on: May 28, 2011, 12:37:19 PM »

Christus resurrexit!

IF...theoretically the RC didn't require all the items stated above....I think all the RC's should just relinquish all the phony dogmas and simply return, like the prodigal son, to their "father" whom they abandoned - Orthodoxy.

angel


We are the Orthodox Church. Smiley
Oh, I guess I was confused by all your incorrect doctrine.
Acctually, it's your errors that have you in confusion. Look what a muddled mess your thinking is.
You'll have to explain to me what is muddled about refusing to see a falible human being as unfallible when he wears a special hat and sits in a special chair.
That is not only disrespectful and a mockery of the dogma of Papal Infallibility, but it is also inaccurate.
Yes, he doesn't wear the hat anymore.
Yes and no. He doesn't wear the Papal tiara anymore (although I hear that may change soon thanks to a very kind and generous gift from you guys), but he still wears a miter.
A miter is hardly funny (though I'm sure Stashko doesn't like your design), and not a problem.  The pretentious tiara is a different story.

And any Orthodox can do some fool thing without implicating the rest of us.
Yes...make sure you distance yourself from Christian charity. Wouldn't want anyone to get the wrong impression.
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« Reply #72 on: May 28, 2011, 01:46:51 PM »

Just to be clear though, if you believe reunion is going to happen, what particular dogmas do you think the Catholic Church is going to renege on?

I am pretty sure you were not addressing this to me, but I would like to comment here that it is not a matter of "reneging" on any of the truths of revelation, be they dogmatically defined or not.
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« Reply #73 on: May 28, 2011, 03:28:55 PM »

Just to be clear though, if you believe reunion is going to happen, what particular dogmas do you think the Catholic Church is going to renege on?
I think that the word renege is more or less a loaded term. As I understand things, the RCC doesn't see an outright black and white contradiction between what they believe and what the E. Orthodox believe, but regard many of the differences as cultural and due to the fact that the two Churches were apart for a long time. For example, there is the statement on the filioque which more or less points out that the RCC accepts the EO position on the filioque.
http://www.usccb.org/seia/filioque.shtml
I suppose that someone could say that the RCC is renegging on the filioque, but I am not so sure that this is the most charitable way to describe it.
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« Reply #74 on: May 28, 2011, 03:34:21 PM »

Just to be clear though, if you believe reunion is going to happen, what particular dogmas do you think the Catholic Church is going to renege on?
I think that the word renege is more or less a loaded term. As I understand things, the RCC doesn't see an outright black and white contradiction between what they believe and what the E. Orthodox believe, but regard many of the differences as cultural and due to the fact that the two Churches were apart for a long time. For example, there is the statement on the filioque which more or less points out that the RCC accepts the EO position on the filioque.
http://www.usccb.org/seia/filioque.shtml
I suppose that someone could say that the RCC is renegging on the filioque, but I am not so sure that this is the most charitable way to describe it.

Charity is always necessary.

Accuracy is perhaps icing on the cake, but I love icing.   Wink
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« Reply #75 on: May 28, 2011, 03:39:49 PM »

Accuracy is perhaps icing on the cake, but I love icing.   Wink
But what about the cake itself?
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« Reply #76 on: May 28, 2011, 03:53:01 PM »


.

"If you really loved me you'd quit smoking altogether." - many a poor man's wife.   "If you really loved us you'd adopt the filioque and Immaculate Conception and our papal supremacy."- Roman Catholic Ecumenical approach.
[/quote]

That may be the internet poster impression, but it does not do justice to the dialog and academic work being undertaken by both sides.
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« Reply #77 on: May 28, 2011, 03:55:53 PM »

Just to be clear though, if you believe reunion is going to happen, what particular dogmas do you think the Catholic Church is going to renege on?

I am pretty sure you were not addressing this to me, but I would like to comment here that it is not a matter of "reneging" on any of the truths of revelation, be they dogmatically defined or not.

If dogma were 'black and white' and 'cut and dry', there would be no need for theologians, east or west. Theology would be a simple subject taught to all in elementary school. It is not so and it does disservice to theologians, Roman Catholic and Orthodox alike to try to reduce centuries of complex disputes into simple syllogisms.
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« Reply #78 on: May 28, 2011, 04:02:18 PM »

Accuracy is perhaps icing on the cake, but I love icing.   Wink
But what about the cake itself?

In my little scheme that would be charity.  I was suggesting that you would have been better served to say that "renege" is not accurate...rather than suggesting it is not charitable.  In the first place it is not accurate...see?
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« Reply #79 on: May 28, 2011, 06:10:58 PM »




"If you really loved me you'd quit smoking altogether." - many a poor man's wife.   "If you really loved us you'd adopt the filioque and Immaculate Conception and our papal supremacy."- Roman Catholic Ecumenical approach.

That may be the internet poster impression, but it does not do justice to the dialog and academic work being undertaken by both sides.

Oh, I'm sure if the dialogue advances and union takes place it will be done properly.  My response was to the hypothetical situation stated at the beginning of the thread.
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« Reply #80 on: May 28, 2011, 09:04:12 PM »




"If you really loved me you'd quit smoking altogether." - many a poor man's wife.   "If you really loved us you'd adopt the filioque and Immaculate Conception and our papal supremacy."- Roman Catholic Ecumenical approach.

That may be the internet poster impression, but it does not do justice to the dialog and academic work being undertaken by both sides.

Oh, I'm sure if the dialogue advances and union takes place it will be done properly.  My response was to the hypothetical situation stated at the beginning of the thread.

Quite true.
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« Reply #81 on: May 28, 2011, 11:25:15 PM »

Accuracy is perhaps icing on the cake, but I love icing.   Wink
But what about the cake itself?

In my little scheme that would be charity.  I was suggesting that you would have been better served to say that "renege" is not accurate...rather than suggesting it is not charitable.  In the first place it is not accurate...see?
Renege is a bit harsh and has bad connotations. But without the bad implications, didn't the Byzantine Catholic Church throw out the filioque from their creed? They don't say the filioque now, but before Vatican II, the filioque  was in the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic creed, was it not?
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« Reply #82 on: May 28, 2011, 11:30:11 PM »

Accuracy is perhaps icing on the cake, but I love icing.   Wink
But what about the cake itself?

In my little scheme that would be charity.  I was suggesting that you would have been better served to say that "renege" is not accurate...rather than suggesting it is not charitable.  In the first place it is not accurate...see?
Renege is a bit harsh and has bad connotations. But without the bad implications, didn't the Byzantine Catholic Church throw out the filioque from their creed? They don't say the filioque now, but before Vatican II, the filioque  was in the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic creed, was it not?
Is filioque a dogma though? Our Church recognizes that the Creed is perfectly legitimate without it.
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stanley123
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« Reply #83 on: May 28, 2011, 11:34:13 PM »

Accuracy is perhaps icing on the cake, but I love icing.   Wink
But what about the cake itself?

In my little scheme that would be charity.  I was suggesting that you would have been better served to say that "renege" is not accurate...rather than suggesting it is not charitable.  In the first place it is not accurate...see?
Renege is a bit harsh and has bad connotations. But without the bad implications, didn't the Byzantine Catholic Church throw out the filioque from their creed? They don't say the filioque now, but before Vatican II, the filioque  was in the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic creed, was it not?
Is filioque a dogma though? Our Church recognizes that the Creed is perfectly legitimate without it.
Is that a change from what was taught before Vatican II? Before Vatican II, the Ruthenian Byzantince Catholic Chruch was required to have the filioque in their creed, were they not?
Now after Vatican II, we see popping up papers issued by the office of Catholic bishops taking a second look on what is implied by the filioque phrase.
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Wyatt
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« Reply #84 on: May 28, 2011, 11:40:03 PM »

Accuracy is perhaps icing on the cake, but I love icing.   Wink
But what about the cake itself?

In my little scheme that would be charity.  I was suggesting that you would have been better served to say that "renege" is not accurate...rather than suggesting it is not charitable.  In the first place it is not accurate...see?
Renege is a bit harsh and has bad connotations. But without the bad implications, didn't the Byzantine Catholic Church throw out the filioque from their creed? They don't say the filioque now, but before Vatican II, the filioque  was in the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic creed, was it not?
Is filioque a dogma though? Our Church recognizes that the Creed is perfectly legitimate without it.
Is that a change from what was taught before Vatican II? Before Vatican II, the Ruthenian Byzantince Catholic Chruch was required to have the filioque in their creed, were they not?
Now after Vatican II, we see popping up papers issued by the office of Catholic bishops taking a second look on what is implied by the filioque phrase.
I have no idea. The original wording of the Creed didn't contain the filioque, though. It was added later as a clarification. So obviously, when the Creed was recited prior to the Church adding it the Creed was no less valid beforehand.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 11:40:17 PM by Wyatt » Logged
stanley123
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« Reply #85 on: May 28, 2011, 11:54:18 PM »

Accuracy is perhaps icing on the cake, but I love icing.   Wink
But what about the cake itself?

In my little scheme that would be charity.  I was suggesting that you would have been better served to say that "renege" is not accurate...rather than suggesting it is not charitable.  In the first place it is not accurate...see?
Renege is a bit harsh and has bad connotations. But without the bad implications, didn't the Byzantine Catholic Church throw out the filioque from their creed? They don't say the filioque now, but before Vatican II, the filioque  was in the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic creed, was it not?
Is filioque a dogma though? Our Church recognizes that the Creed is perfectly legitimate without it.
Is that a change from what was taught before Vatican II? Before Vatican II, the Ruthenian Byzantince Catholic Chruch was required to have the filioque in their creed, were they not?
Now after Vatican II, we see popping up papers issued by the office of Catholic bishops taking a second look on what is implied by the filioque phrase.
I have no idea. The original wording of the Creed didn't contain the filioque, though. It was added later as a clarification. So obviously, when the Creed was recited prior to the Church adding it the Creed was no less valid beforehand.
A lot of things were different 1500 years ago. For example, was there universal agreement that the Roman Pope was infallible when speaking ex cathedra 1500 years ago? Was there universal agreement on the Immaculate Conception 1500 years ago? (Hint: Read what St. Thomas Aquinas wrote.)
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« Reply #86 on: May 29, 2011, 09:38:23 AM »

Accuracy is perhaps icing on the cake, but I love icing.   Wink
But what about the cake itself?

In my little scheme that would be charity.  I was suggesting that you would have been better served to say that "renege" is not accurate...rather than suggesting it is not charitable.  In the first place it is not accurate...see?
Renege is a bit harsh and has bad connotations. But without the bad implications, didn't the Byzantine Catholic Church throw out the filioque from their creed? They don't say the filioque now, but before Vatican II, the filioque  was in the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic creed, was it not?
Is filioque a dogma though? Our Church recognizes that the Creed is perfectly legitimate without it.
Is that a change from what was taught before Vatican II? Before Vatican II, the Ruthenian Byzantince Catholic Chruch was required to have the filioque in their creed, were they not?

If you look at any period of church history, you are going to see abuses.
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« Reply #87 on: May 29, 2011, 10:11:26 AM »

Accuracy is perhaps icing on the cake, but I love icing.   Wink
But what about the cake itself?

In my little scheme that would be charity.  I was suggesting that you would have been better served to say that "renege" is not accurate...rather than suggesting it is not charitable.  In the first place it is not accurate...see?
Renege is a bit harsh and has bad connotations. But without the bad implications, didn't the Byzantine Catholic Church throw out the filioque from their creed? They don't say the filioque now, but before Vatican II, the filioque  was in the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic creed, was it not?

Reneging on a dogma is not an accurate description of this either.
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« Reply #88 on: May 29, 2011, 02:18:22 PM »

Just to be clear though, if you believe reunion is going to happen, what particular dogmas do you think the Catholic Church is going to renege on?
I think that the word renege is more or less a loaded term. As I understand things, the RCC doesn't see an outright black and white contradiction between what they believe and what the E. Orthodox believe, but regard many of the differences as cultural and due to the fact that the two Churches were apart for a long time. For example, there is the statement on the filioque which more or less points out that the RCC accepts the EO position on the filioque.
http://www.usccb.org/seia/filioque.shtml
I suppose that someone could say that the RCC is renegging on the filioque, but I am not so sure that this is the most charitable way to describe it.

Saying or not saying the filioque can be interpreted as a matter of custom and place. But if people think there is going to be a substantive reunion while the west affirms the validity of the filioque in principle and the east denies the validity of it in principle, I think they're fooling themselves. Easterners are not going to want to join a Church whose creed they regard as heretical.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2011, 02:19:34 PM by Alcuin » Logged
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« Reply #89 on: May 29, 2011, 02:26:54 PM »

Just to be clear though, if you believe reunion is going to happen, what particular dogmas do you think the Catholic Church is going to renege on?
I think that the word renege is more or less a loaded term. As I understand things, the RCC doesn't see an outright black and white contradiction between what they believe and what the E. Orthodox believe, but regard many of the differences as cultural and due to the fact that the two Churches were apart for a long time. For example, there is the statement on the filioque which more or less points out that the RCC accepts the EO position on the filioque.
http://www.usccb.org/seia/filioque.shtml
I suppose that someone could say that the RCC is renegging on the filioque, but I am not so sure that this is the most charitable way to describe it.

Saying or not saying the filioque can be interpreted as a matter of custom and place. But if people think there is going to be a substantive reunion while the west affirms the validity of the filioque in principle and the east denies the validity of it in principle, I think they're fooling themselves. Easterners are not going to want to join a Church whose creed they regard as heretical.

I would suggest that not all of Orthodoxy denies the filioque in principle.   The fact that some do and do so loudly is an observable fact, but I do not believe that universal Orthodoxy will find against filioque as understood by the west.  The principled complaint in the main is that it was added to the Creed without the agreement of the east.  That can be reconciled by forgiveness as long as the teaching is understood correctly as it is.
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