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Author Topic: The extent of the ACoE  (Read 1971 times) Average Rating: 0
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William
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« on: February 21, 2012, 08:57:57 PM »

Hello,

A friend of mine with sympathies with the Assyrian Church of the East and I were having a discussion earlier. I asked him why the ACoE never made any progress in converting the Far East. He told me that the Church of the East actually had converted 80 million Christians before the Indian Christians went RC and OO and before the Mongols killed most of them. Does anyone know anything about this? Is it true?
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« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2012, 09:01:52 PM »

From what I understand, the ACoE pretty much comprised of churches from Edessa to Persia to India to China, most of which are close to extinct.  They now exist mostly in areas of Iraq and India (and now Chicago).

Marco Polo I believe had encounter with Christians in China.  They were Nestorians.
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« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2012, 09:05:40 PM »

The ACoE had traction among some of the Mongols- it did not get as big as Tibetan Buddhism or Islam but some important Mongol figures were ACoE members or sympathizers. I think the fate of the ACoE was really sealed when the central Asian Khanates converted to Islam and the Chinese expelled Christians.
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« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2012, 09:08:02 PM »

a couple of their catholicoi were Mongols.
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« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2012, 09:08:53 PM »

It would have been nice to hear how their liturgies sounded like....alas, no more  Sad
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« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2012, 09:17:58 PM »

He told me that the Church of the East actually had converted 80 million Christians
I doubt it. Maybe with a zero knocked off.
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« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2012, 09:41:32 PM »

Here's an interesting history of a tablet where it mentions of the flourishing of Christianity in China:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/eastasia/781nestorian.asp
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« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2012, 11:21:11 PM »

Hello,

A friend of mine with sympathies with the Assyrian Church of the East and I were having a discussion earlier. I asked him why the ACoE never made any progress in converting the Far East. He told me that the Church of the East actually had converted 80 million Christians before the Indian Christians went RC and OO and before the Mongols killed most of them. Does anyone know anything about this? Is it true?

Don't know if that's all true. The part about Indian Christians converting to the RCC might be talking about the origins of the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syro-Malabar_Catholic_Church
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« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2012, 01:12:09 PM »

Hello,

A friend of mine with sympathies with the Assyrian Church of the East and I were having a discussion earlier. I asked him why the ACoE never made any progress in converting the Far East. He told me that the Church of the East actually had converted 80 million Christians before the Mongols killed most of them. Does anyone know anything about this? Is it true?



It’s an amazing story, More than 1,300 years ago, a Persian Christian monk named Aleben traveled 3,000 miles along the ancient caravan route known as the Silk Road all the way to China, carrying precious copies of the New Testament writings (probably in Syriac). Aleben and his fellow Christian monks stopped in the Chinese city of Chang-au (Xian), where, under the protection of the Tang Dynasty Emperor Taizong, he founded a Christian monastery and began the arduous task of translating the Christian texts into Chinese. It was the year A.D. 635. When the Italian explorer Marco Polo arrived in China nearly 600 years later, he was astonished to discover that a tiny Christian community had existed there for centuries.


The Jesus Sutras are early Chinese language manuscripts of Christian teachings. They are connected with the 7th century mission of Alopen, a Syrian bishop from Persia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_East_in_China
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« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2012, 01:13:31 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_among_the_Mongols

You can read about that on Wikipedia.

Post edited for link posting policy - MK.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 07:04:58 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2012, 01:25:11 PM »

Hello,

I asked him why the ACoE never made any progress in converting the Far East.


Russian archaeologists have found Christian tombstones in several Central Asian locations. More than 630 of them, dating from 858 to 1342 have been unearthed in two ancient cemeteries located at Tokmak near Lake Issyq-Köl (modern-day Kyrgyzstan) which bear witness to the faith of a truly cosmopolitan Christian population made up of Syrians, Persians, Indians, Mongols,Siberians,Chinese and Turks.
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« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2012, 01:36:21 PM »

Thank you for the links. Even though as an EO I deem Assyrian Church as heretical it's an intriguing idea that there could be native Far Eastern forms of Christianity. A lot more intriguing than present spread of Protestantism.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 01:39:00 PM by Alpo » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2012, 02:11:07 PM »

He told me that the Church of the East actually had converted 80 million Christians before the Indian Christians went RC and OO and before the Mongols killed most of them.

We cannot consider a church founded by an apostle   as a missionary church of any other church.The Exact relation between Church of Malabar and Church of Seleucia-Cephon is "SISTER CHURCH" not  "DAUGHTER CHURCH"

a couple of their catholicoi were Mongols.



Yahballaha III (1245–1317), known in earlier years as Rabban Marcos or Markos, was Patriarch of the Church of the East from 1281 to 1317. As a young man, he engaged in a remarkable journey, which began as an ascetic monk's pilgrimage from China to Jerusalem, led him to the Patriarch position in Baghdad, and brought him to recommend his former teacher and traveling companion, the monk Rabban Bar Sauma, to become the first Asian ambassador to Europe.Markos was born near Beijing (Khanbaliq, or Taitu), but his ethnic ancestry is not entirely clear. According to the Ecclesiastical Chronicle of Bar-Hebraeus he was of Turkic Uyghur descent. He was also referred to as 'Yahballaha the Turk' in the colophon to an East Syrian manuscript of 1301(from Malabar). On the other hand, the History of Mar Yahballaha III names the place of his birth as Koshang, thus perhaps suggesting that he was an Ongud from the Christian tribe's homeland in Inner Mongolia near Shanxi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahballaha_III
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« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2012, 02:42:30 PM »



 In Kirghiztan two Christian cemeteries were discovered at Semiryechensk, mute testimony to this once-flourishing church. Inscriptions on the tombstones were written both in Syriac and Turkish. There lay, side by side, 'Terim the Chinese', 'Banus the Uigurian', 'Sazik the Indian', 'Kiamata of Kashgar', 'Tatt the Mongol', and 'Shah Malison of George of Tus'. People from China, India, East and West Turkestan, Mongolia, manchuria, Siberia and Persia.

The inscriptions mentioned their occupations: Zuma, priest, general and famous amir; Shliha the celebrated commentator and teacher, who illuminated all the monasteries with light; Pesoha the renowned exegetist and preacher; the charming maiden Julia, the betrothed of the bishop Johanan; Grin Grin Sabrisho, the archdeacon, the blessed old man and the perfect priest. "This is the grave of Chorepiscopus Ama. In the year 1566, (or 1255 according to our time), he departed from this world in the month of July on Sabbath. May our Lord unite his spirit with those of the pious and upright. Amen"
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« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2012, 03:53:54 PM »



Two Persian Monks Present Silkworms Smuggled from China to the Emperor Justinian(AD 550) Grin Grin

About the year 550, Justinian, Emperor of Byzantium, is said to have sent two Persian monks to China to bring back eggs of silk worms in a bamboo tube. This small beginning started a silk industry in the region around Constantinople. From there the raising of silk spread slowly throughout South Eastern Europe. Italy became famous for lovely brocades, clamasks, and velvets made of Italian-grown silk.
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« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2012, 07:37:01 PM »

If I may add to this interesting topic, from my reading of the Mongols' history I recall that the hordes  accepted Islam wholesale rather quickly beginning in the fourteenth century. Prior to that they were a mix of about 60-70% Buddhist and 30-40% Nestorian Christian. It would seem the ACoE did a respectable evangelizing job and it would be no surprise that the effort had effect as far as the China of that period. Remarkable, IMO.

(minasoliman, great link to the Fordham piece. Thanks.)
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« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2012, 08:15:21 PM »

Of course, one knows that the "Nestorian Churches" are so called due to their keeping the sainthood of Diodore, Theodore, and Nestorius.  But it is a fact that they have contributed a lot to the spread of Christianity to the far regions of the Asian world.  Just imagine the rites and liturgical practices, as well as the writings and prayers hidden within these grounds that one may uncover.  It's also not unreasonable to hypothesize that these churches were grown from tiny seeds almost all the way back to the result of St. Thomas' missions in the far east, which attest to the understanding that truly the 12 Apostles really went all over the world to spread the faith.  It's almost quite tragic that such communities are extinct, almost a homesick sense of feeling as well, for one can be flabbergasted at a possibly even more richer history of Christianity than merely the Roman empire and its immediate borders.

Thanks Boby for some of those links and welcome to oc.net!
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 08:15:50 PM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2012, 08:47:02 PM »

I won't link to them because I too feel the ACoE is heretical, but there are liturgies from the Nestorian church on Youtube. In their form they are quite old (the anaphora of Adai and Mari dating back to the 3rd century, though the current form of the ACoE liturgy dates from the 8th), so you can imagine upon hearing them at least roughly how they might have sounded in Mongolia, Kyrgyzstan, etc.

(It probably wouldn't be like this, but to be fair it probably wouldn't be exactly like this, either.)
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 08:47:22 PM by dzheremi » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2012, 10:14:05 PM »

The beginning of the mass:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3FUaprJFbI&feature=related
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« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2012, 01:04:15 PM »

It would seem the ACoE did a respectable evangelizing job and it would be no surprise that the effort had effect as far as the China of that period. Remarkable, IMO.

Can u guys use Church of the east(COE) instead of ACOE because i think Original church of the east comprise of Assyrians,Persians,Arabs?,Indians,Parthians,Mangols,turks etc...and all these communities contributed to the growth of this church.

Built by monks, nurtured by pilgrims from India: One ancient pre-Islamic Christian site in Muslim heartland opens to public 
 



Remains: Buildings including a church, chapel and tower have been unearthed during the digs


 

A 1,400-year-old monastery in the United Arab Emirates that is the only pre-Islamic Christian site in the region has opened to the public.
The site at Sir Bani Yas island in Abu Dhabi dates back to around 600AD. It was built by a community of 30 to 40 monks and is understood to have been established by pilgrims travelling from India.
The remains, which also include a church, chapel and tower, were unearthed in 1992 during an archaeological study. Excavations will continue as visitors come to the site with the first being allowed access on Saturday.


 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1338060/Pre-Islamic-Christian-monastery-Abu-Dhabi-opens-public.html
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« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2012, 01:16:58 PM »

Forgotten east: mission, liturgy and spirituality of the eastern churches : a study with special reference to the Church of St. Thomas Christians by Mar Abraham Mattam Bishop Emeritus Syro Malabar Diocese Satna.



http://books.google.co.in/books?id=ksI0JVvGoJIC&pg=PA176&dq=the+forgotten+eucharistic+prayers+of+east+syria&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5nVUT5zAPMrVrQfwqvSxDQ&ved=0CF4Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q&f=false



The Liturgy St Thomas introduced in India and its development-Page 145

Missionary enterprises of the church of St Thomas christians-Page 61

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« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2012, 01:29:58 PM »




Cosmas Indicopleustes (Greek Κοσμᾶς Ἰνδικοπλεύστης, literally "Cosmas who sailed to India"; also known as Cosmas the Monk) was an Alexandrian merchant and later hermit .He was a 6th-century traveller, who made voyages to India during the reign of emperor Justinian. His work Christian Topography contained some of the earliest and most famous world maps.

He is the first traveller to mention  Christians in India. He wrote, "In the Island of Taprobane (Sri Lanka), there is a church of the Christians, and clerks and faithful. Likewise at Malé(Malabar) where the pepper grows; and in the town of Kalliana(Konkan Coast) there is also a bishop consecrated in Persia."


http://chroniclesofmalabar.blogspot.in/2012/01/cosmas-indicopleustes-christian.html

http://chroniclesofmalabar.blogspot.in/2012/02/calliana-or-kalliena.html
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« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2012, 02:50:30 PM »


around 1:45 he crosses himself... like we do!
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« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2012, 02:53:00 PM »

the walls are bare though... Sad
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« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2012, 02:54:25 PM »

Quote
Can u guys use Church of the east(COE) instead of ACOE because i think Original church of the east comprise of Assyrians,Persians,Arabs?,Indians,Parthians,Mangols,turks etc...and all these communities contributed to the growth of this church.

If you insist, despite their official name:

Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East

 Wink

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« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2012, 02:56:08 PM »


Oh my...!!! We ARE Nestorians  Cheesy
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« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2012, 02:59:32 PM »

the walls are bare though... Sad

They do not use icons. This has been a prohibition in their church for a long time.
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« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2012, 03:04:02 PM »

the walls are bare though... Sad

They do not use icons. This has been a prohibition in their church for a long time.

i see they have crosses though, and venerate them. Interesting.
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