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Author Topic: Sabellianism  (Read 15710 times) Average Rating: 0
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Aindriú
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« Reply #225 on: July 10, 2011, 10:34:26 AM »


Do you dispute He felt pain? Or fear?

Agony in the garden? The Passion on the cross? Being whipped?


I think you should spend less time worrying about the physical pain in Jesus's limbs, and more time worrying about the spiritual implications of his death.

Worrying? Who's worrying? I'm answering your fallacies.

You deny His humanity, and thus ignore these statements with ad hominem.
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« Reply #226 on: July 10, 2011, 10:56:23 AM »

Habte,

I never claimed that Jesus did not have a corporeal body. 
I reject the label: the "second person".  If you followed the thread you would know this.
As far as your request to close this thread.  May I suggest that if this discussion is not to your liking then don't enter in. 


I will not address any posts that attempt to discuss the quality of my character.
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« Reply #227 on: July 10, 2011, 11:22:45 AM »


Hebrews 5:
Quote
For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in the things that appertain to God, that he may offer up gifts and sacrifices for sins: 2 Who can have compassion on them that are ignorant and that err: because he himself also is compassed with infirmity. 3 And therefore he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins. 4 Neither does any man take the honour to himself, but he that is called by God, as Aaron was. 5 So Christ also did not glorify himself, that he might be made a high priest: but he that said unto him: You are my Son: this day have I begotten you. 6 As he says also in another place: You are a priest for ever, according to the order of Melchisedech. 7 Who in the days of his flesh, with a strong cry and tears, offering up prayers and supplications to him that was able to save him from death, was heard for his reverence. 8 And whereas indeed he was the Son of God, he learned obedience by the things which he suffered. 9 And being consummated, he became, to all that obey him, the cause of eternal salvation: 10 Called by God a high priest, according to the order of Melchisedech.
http://www.newadvent.org/bible/heb005.htm


"For every high Priest taken from among men..."

Jesus was not taken from "among men".
 
Jesus didn't offer blood sacrifices at the temple. He overturned tables at the temple.

Was Jesus God or was Jesus not God?  Could Jesus have prevented his death on the cross?  Or could he not have prevented it?

Does God need to learn obedience?  Or is Jesus not God, and therefore has to learn how to be obedient to God? 

This is the problem of presenting Jesus as some sort of human-god hybrid.  Which is he, human or God?  Would someone here please make up their mind?

You want to have it both ways, that he is both human and fragile, and also God and all powerful and I have already demonstrated how that is not possible.

It is also not possible that one moment he is all powerful, and that five minutes later he is a powerless human subject to God's will.

Either Jesus's will = God's will, or it does not equal it.  If it does not equal God's will then it is subservient to God.  And a thing subservient to God's will cannot be God.

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Aindriú
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« Reply #228 on: July 10, 2011, 12:15:54 PM »

Habte,

I never claimed that Jesus did not have a corporeal body. 
I reject the label: the "second person".  If you followed the thread you would know this.
As far as your request to close this thread.  May I suggest that if this discussion is not to your liking then don't enter in. 


I will not address any posts that attempt to discuss the quality of my character.


You quote "second person", but you will be unable to find that above. If fact, we all made clear many times we weren't talking about a second person. We attempted many times to distinguish and explain the meaning of 'nature'.

Jesus has two 'natures', one divine and one human, that upon conception compose of the Jesus Christ, the God-man, who is fully divine, and fully human without conflict and without confusion.
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« Reply #229 on: July 10, 2011, 12:24:08 PM »


Hebrews 5:
Quote
For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in the things that appertain to God, that he may offer up gifts and sacrifices for sins: 2 Who can have compassion on them that are ignorant and that err: because he himself also is compassed with infirmity. 3 And therefore he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins. 4 Neither does any man take the honour to himself, but he that is called by God, as Aaron was. 5 So Christ also did not glorify himself, that he might be made a high priest: but he that said unto him: You are my Son: this day have I begotten you. 6 As he says also in another place: You are a priest for ever, according to the order of Melchisedech. 7 Who in the days of his flesh, with a strong cry and tears, offering up prayers and supplications to him that was able to save him from death, was heard for his reverence. 8 And whereas indeed he was the Son of God, he learned obedience by the things which he suffered. 9 And being consummated, he became, to all that obey him, the cause of eternal salvation: 10 Called by God a high priest, according to the order of Melchisedech.
http://www.newadvent.org/bible/heb005.htm


"For every high Priest taken from among men..."

Jesus was not taken from "among men".
 
Jesus didn't offer blood sacrifices at the temple. He overturned tables at the temple.

Was Jesus God or was Jesus not God?  Could Jesus have prevented his death on the cross?  Or could he not have prevented it?

Does God need to learn obedience?  Or is Jesus not God, and therefore has to learn how to be obedient to God? 

This is the problem of presenting Jesus as some sort of human-god hybrid.  Which is he, human or God?  Would someone here please make up their mind?

You want to have it both ways, that he is both human and fragile, and also God and all powerful and I have already demonstrated how that is not possible.

It is also not possible that one moment he is all powerful, and that five minutes later he is a powerless human subject to God's will.

Either Jesus's will = God's will, or it does not equal it.  If it does not equal God's will then it is subservient to God.  And a thing subservient to God's will cannot be God.

None of that is my position. Is this intentional? /frustrated

Here is a part of a commentary on the Epistle to the Hebrews by St. John Chrysostom. Follow the link for the fuller text.
Quote
Hebrews 5:1-3

 For every high priest taken from among men, is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: who can have compassion on the ignorant and on them that are out of the way, for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity; and by reason hereof he ought, as for the people so also for himself to offer for sins.

1. The blessed Paul wishes to show in the next place that this covenant is far better than the old. This then he does by first laying down remote considerations. For inasmuch as there was nothing bodily or that made a show, no temple for instance, nor Holy of Holies, nor Priest with so great apparel, no legal observances, but all things higher and more perfect, and there was nothing of bodily things, but all was in things spiritual, and things spiritual did not attract the weak, as things bodily; he thoroughly sifts this whole matter.

And observe his wisdom: he makes his beginning from the priest first, and continually calls Him an High Priest, and from this first [point] shows the difference [of the two Dispensations]. On this account he first of all defines what a Priest is, and shows whether He has any things proper to a Priest, and whether there are any signs of priesthood. It was however an objection in his way that He [Christ] was not even well-born, nor was He of the sacerdotal tribe, nor a priest on earth. How then was He a Priest? Some one may say.

And just as in the Epistle to the Romans having taken up an argument of which they were not easily persuaded, that Faith effects that which the labor of the Law could not, nor the sweat of the daily life, he betook himself to the Patriarch and referred the whole [question] to that time: so now here also he opens out the other path of the Priesthood, showing its superiority from the things which happened before. And as, in [the matter of] punishment, he brings before them not Hell alone, but also what happened to their fathers, so now here also, he first establishes this position from things present. For it were right indeed that earthly things should be proved from heavenly, but when the hearers are weak, the opposite course is taken.

2. Up to a certain point he lays down first the things which are common [to Christ and their High Priests], and then shows that He is superior. For comparative excellence arises thus, when in some respects there is community, in others superiority; otherwise it is no longer comparative.

For every High Priest taken from among men, this is common to Christ; is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, and this also; that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for the people, and this too, [yet] not entirely: what follows however is no longer so: who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way, from this point forward is the superiority, inasmuch as himself also is encompassed with infirmity; and by reason hereof he ought as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.

Hebrews 5:4-5

Then also [there are] other [points]: He is made [Priest] (he says) by Another and does not of Himself intrude into [the office]. This too is common Hebrews 5:4, And no man takes this honor to himself, but he that is called of God as was Aaron.

Here again he conciliates them in another point, because He was sent from God: which Christ was wont to say throughout to the Jews. He that sent Me is greater than I, and, I came not of Myself. John 12:49; 14:28; 8:42

He appears to me in these words also to hint at the priests of the Jews, as being no longer priests, [but] intruders and corrupters of the law of the priesthood; Hebrews 5:5 So Christ also glorified not Himself to be made an High Priest.

How then was He appointed (one says)? For Aaron was many times appointed as by the Rod, and when the fire came down and destroyed those who wished to intrude into the priesthood. But in this instance, on the contrary, they [the Jewish Priests] not only suffered nothing, but even are in high esteem. Whence then [His appointment]? He shows it from the prophecy. He has nothing [to allege] perceptible by sense, nothing visible. For this cause he affirms it from prophecy, from things future; But He that said unto Him You are My Son, today have I begotten You. What has this to do with the Son? Yea (he says) it is a preparation for His being appointed by God.

Hebrews 5:6

As He says also in another place, You are a Priest forever after the order of Melchisedech. Unto whom now was this spoken?

Who is after the order of Melchisedech? No other [than He]. For they all were under the Law, they all kept sabbaths, they all were circumcised; one could not point out any other [than Him].

Hebrews 5:7-8

3. Who in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears, to Him that was able to save Him from death, and was heard in that He feared; though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered. Do you see that he sets forth nothing else than His care and the exceeding greatness of His love? For what means the [expression] with strong crying? The Gospel nowhere says this, nor that He wept when He prayed, nor yet that He uttered a cry. Do you see that it was a condescension? For he could not [merely] say that He prayed, but also with strong crying.

Hebrews 5:9-10

And was heard, (he says), in that He feared; though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered., And being made perfect He became the Author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him: called of God an High Priest after the order of Melchisedech.

Be it with crying, why also strong [crying] and tears?

Having offered, (he says), and having been heard in that He feared. What do you say? Let the Heretics be ashamed. The Son of God was heard in that He feared. And what more could any man say concerning the prophets? And what sort of connection is there, in saying, He was heard in that He feared, though He were Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered? Would any man say these things concerning God? Why, who was ever so mad? And who, even if he were beside himself, would have uttered these things? Having been heard, (he says), in that He feared, He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. What obedience? He that before this had been obedient even unto death, as a Son to His Father, how did He afterwards learn? Do you see that this is spoken concerning the Incarnation?

Tell me now, did He pray the Father that He might be saved from death? And was it for this cause that He was exceeding sorrowful, and said, If it be possible, let this cup pass from Me? Matthew 26:38-39 Yet He nowhere prayed the Father concerning His resurrection, but on the contrary He openly declares, Destroy this temple and within three days I will raise it up. John 2:19 And, I have power to lay down My life, and I have power to take it again. No man takes it from Me, I lay it down of Myself. John 10:18 What then is it; why did He pray? (And again He said, Behold we go up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and scribes, and they shall condemn Him to death. And they shall deliver Him to the Gentiles, to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify Him; and the third day He shall rise again Matthew 20:18-19, and said not, My Father shall raise Me up again.) How then did He pray concerning this? But for whom did He pray? For those who believed on Him.

And what he means is this, 'He is readily listened to.' For since they had not yet the right opinion concerning Him, he said that He was heard. Just as He Himself also when consoling His disciples said, If you loved Me, you would rejoice, because I go to My Father John 14:28, and My Father is greater than I. But how did He not glorify Himself, He who made Himself of no reputation Philippians 2:7, He who gave Himself up? For, it is said, He gave Himself up for our sins. See And again, Who gave Himself a ransom for us all. 1 Timothy 2:6 What is it then? You see that it is in reference to the flesh that lowly things are spoken concerning Himself: So also here, Although He were Son, He was heard in that He feared, it is said. He wishes to show, that the success was of Himself, rather than of God's favor. So great (he says) was His reverence, that even on account thereof God had respect unto Him.

He learned, he says, to obey God. Here again he shows how great is the gain of sufferings. And having been made perfect, he says, He became the Author of salvation to them that obey Him. (Cf. supra, pp. 384, 391.) But if He, being the Son, gained obedience from His sufferings, much more shall we. Do you see how many things he discourses about obedience, that they might be persuaded to it? For it seems to me that they would not be restrained. From the things, he says, which He suffered He continually learned to obey God . And being made perfect through sufferings. This then is perfection, and by this means must we arrive at perfection. For not only was He Himself saved, but became to others also an abundant supply of salvation. For being made perfect He became the Author of salvation to them that obey Him.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/240208.htm
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 12:24:22 PM by Azurestone » Logged


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