Author Topic: Polish National Catholic Church  (Read 17332 times)

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Offline Ben

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Re:Polish National Catholic Church
« Reply #90 on: June 16, 2004, 08:04:40 PM »
James, you can freely access the Catechism and the Church Canon Law at the offical Vatican website, if you don't have the internet at home you can use a computer at the local library, or you could visit your local parish, most if not all Catholic parishes have a copy of the Catechism laying around some where.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2004, 08:09:57 PM by Ben »
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Offline Jakub

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Re:Polish National Catholic Church
« Reply #91 on: June 16, 2004, 08:16:39 PM »
Ben,

We are a little off topic of this thread, however I do own several different copies of the CCC, thank you, its the average person that I was referring to. I see you are a convert to Catholicism, most converts I know are very zealous in their new faith, more then most cradle RC's. If you don't mind the comparison, its like a real non smoker & ex smoker, I'm a smoker but those ex's will raise total hell with you.

If you want maybe we should open a thread "Orthodox and RCC Catechism's".

james
« Last Edit: June 16, 2004, 08:18:43 PM by Jakub »
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Offline Ben

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Re:Polish National Catholic Church
« Reply #92 on: June 16, 2004, 08:22:25 PM »
James,

I realize we got off topic, but the point is there is no excuse for a Catholic not to know their faith in this modern world. You bring up that the average person doesn't have a Catechism, which in fact I don't believe, well if that is so, then there are many other ways they could get their hands on one.

For a Catholic not to know that they must believe in the Filioque and Papal Infallibility, is absurd.

I don't think it's neccesary to start a new thread, I have said all that I have to say.

Gbu! :)
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Jack

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Re:Polish National Catholic Church
« Reply #93 on: June 17, 2004, 03:35:01 PM »
Vatican I defined ex-cathedra as when a Pope declares or defines something that is to be held by the entire Church.

If you read the Bull Unam Sanctam, and many bulls previous to Vatican I, you will see that they define and/or declare something to be held by he entire Church.

I agree that the bishops of he Church should have some involvement in any doctrinal issue, however the RC teaching is clear, the Roman Pontiff does not need the consent of an Ecumenical Council or of any bishop to declare or define something that mus be held by the entire Church.

Yes, I acknowledge that he doesn't need their consent, but I think Matthew 16 makes it clear that he must act in communion with them.
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Offline Ben

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Re:Polish National Catholic Church
« Reply #94 on: June 20, 2004, 10:26:38 PM »
Yes, I acknowledge that he doesn't need their consent, but I think Matthew 16 makes it clear that he must act in communion with them.

I agree, but it depends on how you define "in communion with them"
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Jack

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Re:Polish National Catholic Church
« Reply #95 on: June 21, 2004, 12:39:46 PM »
I agree, but it depends on how you define "in communion with them"

Read Matthew 16:13-23.  When Peter makes his confession of faith he is in the presence of the other apostles.  When he later takes Jesus aside and rebukes him, resulting in the famous "Get behind me Satan," he is apart from them.  I'm not sure of all of the implications of this, but it appears that Peter's infallibility is somehow linked to his being with the other apostles.
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Offline Ben

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Re:Polish National Catholic Church
« Reply #96 on: June 21, 2004, 09:51:28 PM »
Notice when the Lord asks the apostles who he is, all but Peter answer with wrong answers. They all answer with the opinions of the others, only Peter, with the help of the Holy Ghost, and on his own, answers the questions correctly. Soloviev expands on this moment in the Gospels and what is means in relation to the Papacy, in his book "Russia and the Universal Church", if you haven't read it, I highly reccomend you do so.
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Etienne

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Re:Polish National Catholic Church
« Reply #97 on: July 18, 2004, 01:31:41 PM »
Looking at the post about the P N C C and RCs, I note the RCs appear to state that the P N C C clergy have valid ordinations

The RC regards itself as the true church, but you can split off and retain 'grace' and perform 'sacraments'? This as an Orthodox appears novel, something more akin to magic than anything else surely!
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Offline Ben

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Re:Polish National Catholic Church
« Reply #98 on: July 19, 2004, 10:34:43 PM »
Well, I know Orthodox priests and bishops who believe that Catholic ordinations are valid, actually the only priests I have found that reject Catholic sacraments as null and void, were ROAC, and I have met my fair share of Orthodox priests!

In fact an OCA priest told me that Catholic priests who convert to Orthodoxy are always "vested", never ordained. Their ordination lacked something, but was not null and void, and for that reason there is no need to ordain them as if they were just entering the priesthood.
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Anastasios

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Re:Polish National Catholic Church
« Reply #99 on: July 20, 2004, 12:51:45 AM »
Ben,

The OCA priest did a good job of explaining the Russian position.  Of course, the Greek position differs, and even the GOA reordains RC priests.

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Offline Ben

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Re:Polish National Catholic Church
« Reply #100 on: July 20, 2004, 08:32:00 PM »
The fact that there is a difference like that between the Greeks and the Russians really does concern me!

This may be a stupid question, but if a RC priest entered the OCA, and was not reordained, would GOA not consider him to be a priest? Would GOA priests refuse to concelebrate with him?
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline prodromos

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Re:Polish National Catholic Church
« Reply #101 on: July 21, 2004, 02:58:08 AM »
Notice when the Lord asks the apostles who he is, all but Peter answer with wrong answers. They all answer with the opinions of the others, only Peter, with the help of the Holy Ghost, and on his own, answers the questions correctly.

No, they correctly answered the question that Jesus asked of them, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?". Only after they have answered this question does Jesus ask them, "But who do you say that I am?".

Do you honestly believe that if Peter hadn't spoken up first, the other apostles would have answered incorrectly?

John.

Offline iustinos

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Re:Polish National Catholic Church
« Reply #102 on: July 21, 2004, 09:10:37 PM »
"The fact that there is a difference like that between the Greeks and the Russians really does concern me!

This may be a stupid question, but if a RC priest entered the OCA, and was not reordained, would GOA not consider him to be a priest? Would GOA priests refuse to concelebrate with him?"


The difference is in a broad application of economia versus a more restricted application.  For example, I know many Orthodox who consider baptism of Catholics proper, but wouldn't deny that those who are chrismated are fully Orthodox.  It's a matter of economia vs. acrivia.

Justin
« Last Edit: July 21, 2004, 09:11:17 PM by iustinos »

Offline Anastasios

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Re:Polish National Catholic Church
« Reply #103 on: July 21, 2004, 11:19:02 PM »
The fact that there is a difference like that between the Greeks and the Russians really does concern me!

This may be a stupid question, but if a RC priest entered the OCA, and was not reordained, would GOA not consider him to be a priest? Would GOA priests refuse to concelebrate with him?

No, because as St Cyprian finally admitted to St Stephen in his final letter to him, each bishop has the responsiblity for exercising ekonomia.  All ordinations by one Orthodox Church are accepted by those she is in communion with.*

anastasios

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Offline Etienne

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Re:Polish National Catholic Church
« Reply #104 on: July 22, 2004, 11:15:43 AM »
The application of the principles of 'strictness' and 'economy' will vary from place to place, and from time to time. The use of the priniciple of 'economy' being a pastoral response or condesenscion. The perceived difference between contemporary Russian and Greek practice should not be in itself a scandal.

As long as we, the Orthodox, do not adopt the 'magic' principle where one supposedly may be 'validedly' ordained, depart from the Faith, but one's supposedly 'sacramental' actions thereafter are effective? Such a notion is novel and clearly belongs to the realm of western rationalism and philosophy, not Christianity. ;)
« Last Edit: July 22, 2004, 11:20:43 AM by Etienne »
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re:Polish National Catholic Church
« Reply #105 on: August 16, 2004, 09:26:16 PM »
It appears the PNCC is dialoging with the Antiochian Archdiocese WRV as well as the Catholic Church.

The stats are a little off.  According to their website they have 25,000 members and 135 parishes in 5 dioceses covering the US and Canada.

http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/write.htm

"Q. Are there any other Western Rite Christians (besides the Roman Catholic and Anglican Episcopalian) who have approached the Orthodox Church for acceptance?

A. The Polish National Catholic Church, which severed its communion with the Episcopal Church over the ordination of women, has approached the Antiochian Archdiocese. This is a group which broke away from the Roman Catholic Church in 1897. This Church has 282,000 members in 162 parishes and five bishops. The members of the Western Rite Commission are at present in dialogue with the Polish National Catholic Church."

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