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Author Topic: St. Prince Alexander Nevsky and life under the Mongols  (Read 4223 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 25, 2011, 06:52:22 PM »

An interesting article on a Ukrainian site discusses the lives of St. Prince Alexander Nevsky, Daniel of Galicia and Mongol rule.

From the article:
Quote
What did Alexander Nevsky do in those years? He “very successfully” put down a 1257 Novgorod uprising caused by the Horde’s intention to hold a census in this city (which, incidentally, Batu Khan had failed to occupy before) in order to facilitate tribute collection.

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« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2011, 12:23:21 AM »

I am reading a lot about Russia under the "Tatar yoke." St. Alexander was certainly very shrewd in his dealings with the Mongols. The truth is, all the major Russian principalities used the Mongols to their own advantage at certain points in history. The effects of Mongol rule on Russia are very multi-layered and often paradoxical. An interesting thing I recently read about was how Chingisid lineage was treated as noble blood in Russia, even after the Golden Horde was long gone. The early Russian tsars also traced their legitimacy partially to the khans whom they had supplanted.
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« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2011, 12:55:44 AM »

An interesting article on a Ukrainian site discusses the lives of St. Prince Alexander Nevsky, Daniel of Galicia and Mongol rule.

From the article:
Quote
What did Alexander Nevsky do in those years? He “very successfully” put down a 1257 Novgorod uprising caused by the Horde’s intention to hold a census in this city (which, incidentally, Batu Khan had failed to occupy before) in order to facilitate tribute collection.

 angel

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Anything in particular you trying to stir up? Wink

I'll answer this nonsense when it ends up in politics.
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« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2011, 09:55:29 PM »

An interesting article on a Ukrainian site discusses the lives of St. Prince Alexander Nevsky, Daniel of Galicia and Mongol rule.

From the article:
Quote
What did Alexander Nevsky do in those years? He “very successfully” put down a 1257 Novgorod uprising caused by the Horde’s intention to hold a census in this city (which, incidentally, Batu Khan had failed to occupy before) in order to facilitate tribute collection.

 angel

Enjoy.  Wink
Anything in particular you trying to stir up? Wink

I'll answer this nonsense when it ends up in politics.

It doesn't look like it'll end up in politics.  Sad
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« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2011, 10:51:05 PM »

I'm a wet blanket when it comes to a lot of Saints, but for some reason Saint Alexander Nevsky doesn't bother me much. He was a man with responsibility in a bad situation he had no control over. He was using the Mongols as much as they used him. The time of "Igor's Campaign" style routes ended long before he was born and to sacrifice himself in some act of defiance only would have hurt his people. Remember, Jesus was not a Zealot.

Also, St. Alexander became a monk in his old age. Perhaps he had a very burdened soul?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 10:52:30 PM by Volnutt » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2011, 08:19:28 AM »

If you really read about the historical period and the many shades of Mongol rule in Russia I don't think anyone should be shocked or disturbed by St. Alexander Nevsky's cooperation with the Mongols. What the article fails to mention is that, if St. Alexander had not put down that insurrection (which was rather pointless), the Mongols would have put it down themselves and wiped everyone out in the process.

Quote from: Volnutt
The time of "Igor's Campaign" style routes ended long before he was born and to sacrifice himself in some act of defiance only would have hurt his people.

Exactly. During the invasion, in cities like Vladimir the Mongol envoys were killed to silence anyone who considered negotiating peace. Sure, this is a brave act of defiance, but it also doomed everyone in the city.

The effects of Mongol rule in Russia are pretty multi-faceted and sometimes the Mongols treated the Church better than the Rus' princes did.

One more thing- the article says that Daniel of Galicia "victoriously" fought in the Battle of the Kalka River- huh? The Rus' were routed and butchered there, despite their numerical superiority, and the Prince of Kiev was killed.

Overall the article is thoroughly moronic.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 08:28:08 AM by Iconodule » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2011, 08:54:19 AM »

I am reading a lot about Russia under the "Tatar yoke." St. Alexander was certainly very shrewd in his dealings with the Mongols. The truth is, all the major Russian principalities used the Mongols to their own advantage at certain points in history. The effects of Mongol rule on Russia are very multi-layered and often paradoxical. An interesting thing I recently read about was how Chingisid lineage was treated as noble blood in Russia, even after the Golden Horde was long gone. The early Russian tsars also traced their legitimacy partially to the khans whom they had supplanted.

I am not sure about *all* principalities. AFAIK, in the late 13th and the early 14th century the principality of Tver', the major rival of the principality of Muscovy, chose to ally with the Great Prince of Lithuania (who was still a Pagan but leaning towards Orthodox Christianity) against Muscovy and the Mongols. That was a very natural alliance because back then, the lands of Rus' proper (i.e. what is now parts of Ukraine and Belarus) were under the Great Prince of Lithuania. Unfortunately, Muscovy and the Mongols turned out to be militarily superior and Tver' became Moscow's vassal.

Also, the Great Prince of Halych and Volyn', Danylo (crowned King in 1253) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_of_Galicia) never made any treaties or alliances with the Mongols, even though his realm was militarily overpowered by them.

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« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2011, 09:01:39 AM »

I am reading a lot about Russia under the "Tatar yoke." St. Alexander was certainly very shrewd in his dealings with the Mongols. The truth is, all the major Russian principalities used the Mongols to their own advantage at certain points in history. The effects of Mongol rule on Russia are very multi-layered and often paradoxical. An interesting thing I recently read about was how Chingisid lineage was treated as noble blood in Russia, even after the Golden Horde was long gone. The early Russian tsars also traced their legitimacy partially to the khans whom they had supplanted.

I am not sure about *all* principalities. AFAIK, in the late 13th and the early 14th century the principality of Tver', the major rival of the principality of Muscovy, chose to ally with the Great Prince of Lithuania (who was still a Pagan but leaning towards Orthodox Christianity) against Muscovy and the Mongols. That was a very natural alliance because back then, the lands of Rus' proper (i.e. what is now parts of Ukraine and Belarus) were under the Great Prince of Lithuania. Unfortunately, Muscovy and the Mongols turned out to be militarily superior and Tver' became Moscow's vassal.

Tver did in fact ally itself with the Mongols (15th century) once the Mongols realized that Muscovy was getting too powerful for their tastes, but by then it was too late.

Quote
Also, the Great Prince of Halych and Volyn', Danylo (crowned King in 1253) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_of_Galicia) never made any treaties or alliances with the Mongols, even though his realm was militarily overpowered by them.

Daniel submitted to the khan and provided troops like everyone else. There's of course the famous story of him drinking kumis and the Mongols saying, "you're one of us now!" Yes, he also tried to ally with the Hungarians and Lithuanians against the Mongols and promised to submit to the Pope, but he certainly wasn't an utterly uncompromising opponent of the Mongols.
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« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2011, 10:35:47 AM »

I am reading a lot about Russia under the "Tatar yoke." St. Alexander was certainly very shrewd in his dealings with the Mongols. The truth is, all the major Russian principalities used the Mongols to their own advantage at certain points in history. The effects of Mongol rule on Russia are very multi-layered and often paradoxical. An interesting thing I recently read about was how Chingisid lineage was treated as noble blood in Russia, even after the Golden Horde was long gone. The early Russian tsars also traced their legitimacy partially to the khans whom they had supplanted.

I am not sure about *all* principalities. AFAIK, in the late 13th and the early 14th century the principality of Tver', the major rival of the principality of Muscovy, chose to ally with the Great Prince of Lithuania (who was still a Pagan but leaning towards Orthodox Christianity) against Muscovy and the Mongols. That was a very natural alliance because back then, the lands of Rus' proper (i.e. what is now parts of Ukraine and Belarus) were under the Great Prince of Lithuania. Unfortunately, Muscovy and the Mongols turned out to be militarily superior and Tver' became Moscow's vassal.

Tver did in fact ally itself with the Mongols (15th century) once the Mongols realized that Muscovy was getting too powerful for their tastes, but by then it was too late.

Quote
Also, the Great Prince of Halych and Volyn', Danylo (crowned King in 1253) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_of_Galicia) never made any treaties or alliances with the Mongols, even though his realm was militarily overpowered by them.

Daniel submitted to the khan and provided troops like everyone else. There's of course the famous story of him drinking kumis and the Mongols saying, "you're one of us now!" Yes, he also tried to ally with the Hungarians and Lithuanians against the Mongols and promised to submit to the Pope, but he certainly wasn't an utterly uncompromising opponent of the Mongols.
Yes, Daniel tried to ally with the Hungarians and Lithuanians and the West, and where did it go? Nowhere.  Well, actually, somewhere:Poland and Lithuania brought his dynasty and kingdom to and end and divided it amongst themselves.


as for Rus' proper, from the original Slav settlement:

to the establishment of Rurikids over the Slav grads (in red) from which they ruled the Slavic tribes (in grey) into the Rus' Khaganate

to the height of Kievan Rus'

and its devolution

and demise

it included what is now parts of Russia.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 10:52:54 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2011, 11:16:23 AM »

Daniel tried to ally with the Hungarians and Lithuanians and the West, and where did it go? Nowhere.  Well, actually, somewhere:Poland and Lithuania brought his dynasty and kingdom to and end and divided it amongst themselves.

But that did not destroy Orthodoxy - on the contrary, some Lithuanian high princes (Lubartas, son of Gyadiminas) converted to Orthodoxy and made the "old Ukrainian" the language of their court and courts of law. Later, things became tougher because of the Polish-Lithuanian Unia, Counter-Reformation, Jesuits, etc. Still, Orthodoxy was alive, the cities like Ostroh, L'viv, Kyiv were centers of Orthodox learning ("Brotherhood Schools"), peasants were literate, Cossacks defended the people well (not always, but they did what they could), so we (the "Rusy," "Rus'," "Rusyny," whatever) - lived. Our identity remained alive. On the other hand, in the Great Principality of Muscovy things weren't at all that good. The entire life of the people ()the Moskovity or Moskovlyane) was "Tatarized." There were virtually no schools, no learning. Peasants were bonded serfs. Boyars were savages, even in the Duma (Moscow Great Prince's Privy Council) some members did not know how to read or write. We ("Rusy," "Rus', "Rusyny," "Rusychy") actually brought culture and learning to them (Moskovites) in the 17th and 18th centuries. In gratitude for this, they enslaved us and stole our name.
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« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2011, 10:47:13 AM »

On the other hand, in the Great Principality of Muscovy things weren't at all that good. The entire life of the people ()the Moskovity or Moskovlyane) was "Tatarized." There were virtually no schools, no learning. Peasants were bonded serfs. Boyars were savages, even in the Duma (Moscow Great Prince's Privy Council) some members did not know how to read or write. We ("Rusy," "Rus', "Rusyny," "Rusychy") actually brought culture and learning to them (Moskovites) in the 17th and 18th centuries. In gratitude for this, they enslaved us and stole our name.

Are you seriously suggesting that there was no culture in Muscovy?
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