Topic: Papal Tiara for Christian Unity

[elijahmaria]

At today's weekly general audience the Holy Father received a new tiara made for him and presented by Catholic and Orthodox Christians.

More: http://orbiscatholicussecundus.blogspot.com/2011/05/pope-receives-tiara-from-catholics-and.html










Edit to make naked link conform to board policy, nothing more

[Wyatt]

What an unexpected gift from an unexpected source.

[stanley123]

At today's weekly general audience the Holy Father received a new tiara made for him and presented by Catholic and Orthodox Christians.

More: http://orbiscatholicussecundus.blogspot.com/2011/05/pope-receives-tiara-from-catholics-and.html

Edit to make naked link conform to board policy, nothing more

I  thought that the first Pope to wear the papal tiara was Pope Clement V in 1314, well after the break between RC and EO. So I don’t see the papal tiara as a symbol for Christian unity.

Quoting tags edited - MK.

[Melodist]

I get the impression that some people may be taking this way too far. A Roman Catholic hired a company owned by Orthodox christians to make the tiara. I could be mistaken, but I believe the Orthodox included in the presentation were representing their company and workmanship, not the Church.

[Agabus]

I get the impression that some people may be taking this way too far. A Roman Catholic hired a company owned by Orthodox christians to make the tiara. I could be mistaken, but I believe the Orthodox included in the presentation were representing their company and workmanship, not the Church.

If the Internets are to be believed, a new unia is imminent.

[Irish Melkite]

I get the impression that some people may be taking this way too far. A Roman Catholic hired a company owned by Orthodox christians to make the tiara. I could be mistaken, but I believe the Orthodox included in the presentation were representing their company and workmanship, not the Church.

I agree!

Many years,

Neil

[elijahmaria]

I get the impression that some people may be taking this way too far. A Roman Catholic hired a company owned by Orthodox christians to make the tiara. I could be mistaken, but I believe the Orthodox included in the presentation were representing their company and workmanship, not the Church.

I agree!

Many years,

Neil

   Always good to know that Commerce still trumps Schism!!

[Wyatt]

I get the impression that some people may be taking this way too far. A Roman Catholic hired a company owned by Orthodox christians to make the tiara. I could be mistaken, but I believe the Orthodox included in the presentation were representing their company and workmanship, not the Church.

I agree!

Many years,

Neil

   Always good to know that Commerce still trumps Schism!!

Too good to share the Sacraments but not too good to take our money.

[elijahmaria]

I get the impression that some people may be taking this way too far. A Roman Catholic hired a company owned by Orthodox christians to make the tiara. I could be mistaken, but I believe the Orthodox included in the presentation were representing their company and workmanship, not the Church.

I agree!

Many years,

Neil

   Always good to know that Commerce still trumps Schism!!

Too good to share the Sacraments but not too good to take our money.

In this case it was a gift.

[Wyatt]

In this case it was a gift.

I was responding to this:

I get the impression that some people may be taking this way too far. A Roman Catholic hired a company owned by Orthodox christians to make the tiara. I could be mistaken, but I believe the Orthodox included in the presentation were representing their company and workmanship, not the Church.

So they will abandon their anti-Papacy convictions to take our money, eh? If someone offered me money to go out and distribute Chick tracts I know what my answer would be, regardless of the amount offered.

[elijahmaria]

In this case it was a gift.

I was responding to this:

I get the impression that some people may be taking this way too far. A Roman Catholic hired a company owned by Orthodox christians to make the tiara. I could be mistaken, but I believe the Orthodox included in the presentation were representing their company and workmanship, not the Church.

So they will abandon their anti-Papacy convictions to take our money, eh? If someone offered me money to go out and distribute Chick tracts I know what my answer would be, regardless of the amount offered.

Yes.  And Orthodox Patriarchs gratefully accept money from the Vatican for building up parishes and seminaries.  So what do we do?....Give with the open hand and then spit in the eye and slap with the other hand?

You are no better than anyone else around here.  You dish it out just as you see fit without ever thinking perhaps to simply and kindly be grateful for the opportunity to witness what is good to all.

Shame.

[Wyatt]

In this case it was a gift.

I was responding to this:

I get the impression that some people may be taking this way too far. A Roman Catholic hired a company owned by Orthodox christians to make the tiara. I could be mistaken, but I believe the Orthodox included in the presentation were representing their company and workmanship, not the Church.

So they will abandon their anti-Papacy convictions to take our money, eh? If someone offered me money to go out and distribute Chick tracts I know what my answer would be, regardless of the amount offered.

Yes.  And Orthodox Patriarchs gratefully accept money from the Vatican for building up parishes and seminaries.  So what do we do?....Give with the open hand and then spit in the eye and slap with the other hand?

You are no better than anyone else around here.  You dish it out just as you see fit without ever thinking perhaps to simply and kindly be grateful for the opportunity to witness what is good to all.

Shame.

Not sure what I did that you find so wrong. I know this, peddling false ecumenism to try to win over the Eastern Orthodox is not the game I play.

[elijahmaria]

In this case it was a gift.

I was responding to this:

I get the impression that some people may be taking this way too far. A Roman Catholic hired a company owned by Orthodox christians to make the tiara. I could be mistaken, but I believe the Orthodox included in the presentation were representing their company and workmanship, not the Church.

So they will abandon their anti-Papacy convictions to take our money, eh? If someone offered me money to go out and distribute Chick tracts I know what my answer would be, regardless of the amount offered.

Yes.  And Orthodox Patriarchs gratefully accept money from the Vatican for building up parishes and seminaries.  So what do we do?....Give with the open hand and then spit in the eye and slap with the other hand?

You are no better than anyone else around here.  You dish it out just as you see fit without ever thinking perhaps to simply and kindly be grateful for the opportunity to witness what is good to all.

Shame.

Not sure what I did that you find so wrong. I know this, peddling false ecumenism to try to win over the Eastern Orthodox is not the game I play.

If you understood and knew me and those who have taught me, you would know that we do not play any kind of game at all.  Certainly the Holy Father in his comments about theology and ecumenism is not playing any games either, and much of what I've said here has been said before me by those much greater than I.

What brings on my shame at your behavior is that you've traded your sense and spiritual health so that you can look and sound just like those who seem to cause you such grief here.

You are not defending the Church or Jesus.  You are venting Wyatt's spleen.

If you don't take stock you are going to miss a golden opportunity in your next confession.

Mary

[Wyatt]

If you understood and knew me and those who have taught me, you would know that we do not play any kind of game at all.  Certainly the Holy Father in his comments about theology and ecumenism is not playing any games either, and much of what I've said here has been said before me by those much greater than I.

Notice I didn't say ecumenism, I said "false ecumenism." There's a difference. We can embrace and thank God for the elements of our faith that we share in common with the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox. I just think we need to be honest and not try to gloss over the differences by attributing them to just differences in wording.

What brings on my shame at your behavior is that you've traded your sense and spiritual health so that you can look and sound just like those who seem to cause you such grief here.

You're in no position to judge my spiritual health.

You are not defending the Church or Jesus.  You are venting Wyatt's spleen.

Really? I thought when I don't compromise my faith for the sake of false unity that that is exactly what I'm doing.

If you don't take stock you are going to miss a golden opportunity in your next confession.

And what exactly is this opportunity?

[podkarpatska]

If you understood and knew me and those who have taught me, you would know that we do not play any kind of game at all.  Certainly the Holy Father in his comments about theology and ecumenism is not playing any games either, and much of what I've said here has been said before me by those much greater than I.

Notice I didn't say ecumenism, I said "false ecumenism." There's a difference. We can embrace and thank God for the elements of our faith that we share in common with the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox. I just think we need to be honest and not try to gloss over the differences by attributing them to just differences in wording.

What brings on my shame at your behavior is that you've traded your sense and spiritual health so that you can look and sound just like those who seem to cause you such grief here.

You're in no position to judge my spiritual health.

You are not defending the Church or Jesus.  You are venting Wyatt's spleen.

Really? I thought when I don't compromise my faith for the sake of false unity that that is exactly what I'm doing.

If you don't take stock you are going to miss a golden opportunity in your next confession.

And what exactly is this opportunity?

I don't want to peer into Elijahmaria's mind, but I suspect she is thinking of this:


"How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye?"  Luke 6:42

[Wyatt]

If you understood and knew me and those who have taught me, you would know that we do not play any kind of game at all.  Certainly the Holy Father in his comments about theology and ecumenism is not playing any games either, and much of what I've said here has been said before me by those much greater than I.

Notice I didn't say ecumenism, I said "false ecumenism." There's a difference. We can embrace and thank God for the elements of our faith that we share in common with the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox. I just think we need to be honest and not try to gloss over the differences by attributing them to just differences in wording.

What brings on my shame at your behavior is that you've traded your sense and spiritual health so that you can look and sound just like those who seem to cause you such grief here.

You're in no position to judge my spiritual health.

You are not defending the Church or Jesus.  You are venting Wyatt's spleen.

Really? I thought when I don't compromise my faith for the sake of false unity that that is exactly what I'm doing.

If you don't take stock you are going to miss a golden opportunity in your next confession.

And what exactly is this opportunity?

I don't want to peer into Elijahmaria's mind, but I suspect she is thinking of this:


"How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye?"  Luke 6:42

The thing is, those words were spoken by the Word Incarnate, who has the authority to say such things. Elijahmaria has no idea what is in my eye.

[elijahmaria]

I don't want to peer into Elijahmaria's mind, but I suspect she is thinking of this:


"How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye?"  Luke 6:42

You can just look in...the window is generally open!!....

I think for the time being it is far better to pray for Wyatt than to try to talk to him.  He's too busy defending bad behaviors on the grounds that everybody does it.

 

[Wyatt]

I think for the time being it is far better to pray for Wyatt than to try to talk to him.  He's too busy defending bad behaviors on the grounds that everybody does it.

Nice, so now you're playing the ol' use-prayer-as-a-veiled-insult card (e.g. I will pray for you since you are such a filthy, grievous sinner).

[elijahmaria]

I think for the time being it is far better to pray for Wyatt than to try to talk to him.  He's too busy defending bad behaviors on the grounds that everybody does it.

Nice, so now you're playing the ol' use-prayer-as-a-veiled-insult card (e.g. I will pray for you since you are such a filthy, grievous sinner).

I live an avowed life Wyatt.  Prayer is the central core of all that I am and do.   You have no way of knowing that so I will not be put off by your comment but I think you really ought to settle inside and see if there's not some shred of truth in what I am saying to you here.

[Wyatt]

I think for the time being it is far better to pray for Wyatt than to try to talk to him.  He's too busy defending bad behaviors on the grounds that everybody does it.

Nice, so now you're playing the ol' use-prayer-as-a-veiled-insult card (e.g. I will pray for you since you are such a filthy, grievous sinner).

I live an avowed life Wyatt.  Prayer is the central core of all that I am and do.   You have no way of knowing that so I will not be put off by your comment but I think you really ought to settle inside and see if there's not some shred of truth in what I am saying to you here.

The core of this issue is that we simply have two different ways of seeing things. You believe that we are very close to reunion and an end to the schism. I do not. I would happily apologize and admit being wrong if the Churches do get back together anytime soon. I just strongly do not believe it will happen. I also don't think that being honest about doctrine makes me sinful or in need of confession. You don't see me going around throwing the word "schismatic" and "heretic" around when referring to the other Apostolic Churches, so I hardly think I am being uncharitable.

[elijahmaria]

I think for the time being it is far better to pray for Wyatt than to try to talk to him.  He's too busy defending bad behaviors on the grounds that everybody does it.

Nice, so now you're playing the ol' use-prayer-as-a-veiled-insult card (e.g. I will pray for you since you are such a filthy, grievous sinner).

I live an avowed life Wyatt.  Prayer is the central core of all that I am and do.   You have no way of knowing that so I will not be put off by your comment but I think you really ought to settle inside and see if there's not some shred of truth in what I am saying to you here.

The core of this issue is that we simply have two different ways of seeing things. You believe that we are very close to reunion and an end to the schism. I do not. I would happily apologize and admit being wrong if the Churches do get back together anytime soon. I just strongly do not believe it will happen. I also don't think that being honest about doctrine makes me sinful or in need of confession. You don't see me going around throwing the word "schismatic" and "heretic" around when referring to the other Apostolic Churches, so I hardly think I am being uncharitable.

You have gone far afield from where I began with this and added things that do not belong with my initial sorrow at your comment below so I have no more to say but to remind you of where I began.  It was gratuitous and mean spirited given the fact that the Vatican has provided funds to Orthodox jurisdictions for many years to help them overcome some of the impoverishment of the Soviet period.  You do not give and slap at the same time.  Very bad way to treat anyone:

"Too good to share the Sacraments but not too good to take our money.   "

[Wyatt]

I think for the time being it is far better to pray for Wyatt than to try to talk to him.  He's too busy defending bad behaviors on the grounds that everybody does it.

Nice, so now you're playing the ol' use-prayer-as-a-veiled-insult card (e.g. I will pray for you since you are such a filthy, grievous sinner).

I live an avowed life Wyatt.  Prayer is the central core of all that I am and do.   You have no way of knowing that so I will not be put off by your comment but I think you really ought to settle inside and see if there's not some shred of truth in what I am saying to you here.

The core of this issue is that we simply have two different ways of seeing things. You believe that we are very close to reunion and an end to the schism. I do not. I would happily apologize and admit being wrong if the Churches do get back together anytime soon. I just strongly do not believe it will happen. I also don't think that being honest about doctrine makes me sinful or in need of confession. You don't see me going around throwing the word "schismatic" and "heretic" around when referring to the other Apostolic Churches, so I hardly think I am being uncharitable.

You have gone far afield from where I began with this and added things that do not belong with my initial sorrow at your comment below so I have no more to say but to remind you of where I began.  It was gratuitous and mean spirited given the fact that the Vatican has provided funds to Orthodox jurisdictions for many years to help them overcome some of the impoverishment of the Soviet period.  You do not give and slap at the same time.  Very bad way to treat anyone:

"Too good to share the Sacraments but not too good to take our money.   "

I haven't given and slapped at the same time. I do not work at the Vatican. I have not given consent to have those funds sent to EO jurisdictions, so I don't know what you mean.

[stanley123]

Too good to share the Sacraments but not too good to take our money.
_________________________
anathema

What does anathema (at the bottom) refer to? 

[Wyatt]

Too good to share the Sacraments but not too good to take our money.
_________________________
anathema

What does anathema (at the bottom) refer to? 

It's just my signature

[Aindriú]

An anathema on both your houses!

[stanley123]

Too good to share the Sacraments but not too good to take our money.
_________________________
anathema

What does anathema (at the bottom) refer to? 

It's just my signature

But anathema is an ecclesiastical curse condemning a person to hell, is it not?

[Peter J]

Too good to share the Sacraments but not too good to take our money.
_________________________
anathema

What does anathema (at the bottom) refer to? 

It's just my signature

I'm still waiting for you to change it to "anathema sit".

Stanley, Wyatt has had that signature for weeks. It doesn't have anything to do with this thread (if that's what you're wondering).

[Peter J]

At today's weekly general audience the Holy Father received a new tiara made for him and presented by Catholic and Orthodox Christians.

More: http://orbiscatholicussecundus.blogspot.com/2011/05/pope-receives-tiara-from-catholics-and.html

I don't how much more there is to say about this matter, but I note that Fr. Z started a poll about the tiara:

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2011/05/true-ecumenical-gesture-catholics-orthodox-together-give-pope-new-papal-tiara/

[stanley123]

Too good to share the Sacraments but not too good to take our money.
_________________________
anathema

What does anathema (at the bottom) refer to? 

It's just my signature

I'm still waiting for you to change it to "anathema sit".

Stanley, Wyatt has had that signature for weeks. It doesn't have anything to do with this thread (if that's what you're wondering).

I don't know why someone is going around cursing and anathematising people, indicating that they should be condemned to eternal damnation in the fires of hell. Isn't that the meaning of the word anathema? 

[elijahmaria]

Too good to share the Sacraments but not too good to take our money.
_________________________
anathema

What does anathema (at the bottom) refer to? 

It's just my signature

I'm still waiting for you to change it to "anathema sit".

Stanley, Wyatt has had that signature for weeks. It doesn't have anything to do with this thread (if that's what you're wondering).

I don't know why someone is going around cursing and anathematising people, indicating that they should be condemned to eternal damnation in the fires of hell. Isn't that the meaning of the word anathema? 

It is an excommunication, a separation from Jesus:

 1 Cor. 12:3, "Therefore I make known to you, that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed" (anathema); and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit."

1 Cor. 16:22, "If anyone does not love the Lord, let him be accursed. Maranatha."

Rom. 9:3, "For I could wish that I myself were accursed (anathema), separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh."

Gal. 1:8-9, "But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed (anathema). 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed (anathema)."

[stanley123]

Too good to share the Sacraments but not too good to take our money.
_________________________
anathema

What does anathema (at the bottom) refer to? 

It's just my signature

I'm still waiting for you to change it to "anathema sit".

Stanley, Wyatt has had that signature for weeks. It doesn't have anything to do with this thread (if that's what you're wondering).

I don't know why someone is going around cursing and anathematising people, indicating that they should be condemned to eternal damnation in the fires of hell. Isn't that the meaning of the word anathema? 

It is an excommunication, a separation from Jesus:

 1 Cor. 12:3, "Therefore I make known to you, that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed" (anathema); and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit."

1 Cor. 16:22, "If anyone does not love the Lord, let him be accursed. Maranatha."

Rom. 9:3, "For I could wish that I myself were accursed (anathema), separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh."

Gal. 1:8-9, "But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed (anathema). 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed (anathema)."

A formal anathema takes place with the following words, does it not:
Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive (Name) himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan ...., etc.
I don't see why a poster would be going around proclaiming anathema, which amounts to delivering people on this board to eternal fire with Satan?

[ozgeorge]

A formal anathema takes place with the following words, does it not:
Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive (Name) himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan ...., etc.
I don't see why a poster would be going around proclaiming anathema, which amounts to delivering people on this board to eternal fire with Satan?

Only in your confession.
In the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, unlike your confession, we don't believe that any man has the authority to condemn anyone to hell. I'm surprised to learn that your bishops seem to think they have such authority, and even more surprised that you believe them. And unlike your bishops, ours do not make such offerings to Satan.
In the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, to pronounce someone "anathema" means to cut them off from the Church and hand them over to the judgement of God.

[Wyatt]

Too good to share the Sacraments but not too good to take our money.
_________________________
anathema

What does anathema (at the bottom) refer to? 

It's just my signature

But anathema is an ecclesiastical curse condemning a person to hell, is it not?

An anathema is an excommunication. Nothing more. The Church doesn't have the power to put someone in hell.

[Peter J]

A formal anathema takes place with the following words, does it not:

That was, I believe, the practice at one point.

[Wyatt]

A formal anathema takes place with the following words, does it not:

That was, I believe, the practice at one point.

Though (if it ever was) it is not anymore. Today there are not varying levels of excommunication in canon law. There is just excommunication.

[Romanist]

ooh...pretty hat! 

[Wyatt]

ooh...pretty hat! 

Prettier than the Byzantine style hats?

[Asteriktos]

Can Catholics change past anathemas? For example, when the ancient Church anathematized men who were already dead, it would almost certainly have been more than a mere excommunication. Could the Catholic Church downgrade the severity of such an anathema?   

[akimori makoto]

ooh...pretty hat! 

Prettier than the Byzantine style hats?

[Aindriú]

Can Catholics change past anathemas? For example, when the ancient Church anathematized men who were already dead, it would almost certainly have been more than a mere excommunication. Could the Catholic Church downgrade the severity of such an anathema?   

Depends how "official" it was conducted.

[Wyatt]

ooh...pretty hat! 

Prettier than the Byzantine style hats?

I like that one.

[Melodist]

In this case it was a gift.

I was responding to this:

I get the impression that some people may be taking this way too far. A Roman Catholic hired a company owned by Orthodox christians to make the tiara. I could be mistaken, but I believe the Orthodox included in the presentation were representing their company and workmanship, not the Church.

So they will abandon their anti-Papacy convictions to take our money, eh? If someone offered me money to go out and distribute Chick tracts I know what my answer would be, regardless of the amount offered.

It's more like if you ran a clothing store and he wnated to you to taylor a suit for him. You can't expect everyone only to do business with co-religionists.

[elijahmaria]

In this case it was a gift.

I was responding to this:

I get the impression that some people may be taking this way too far. A Roman Catholic hired a company owned by Orthodox christians to make the tiara. I could be mistaken, but I believe the Orthodox included in the presentation were representing their company and workmanship, not the Church.

So they will abandon their anti-Papacy convictions to take our money, eh? If someone offered me money to go out and distribute Chick tracts I know what my answer would be, regardless of the amount offered.

It's more like if you ran a clothing store and he wnated to you to taylor a suit for him. You can't expect everyone only to do business with co-religionists.

It is interesting that you would see caritas as "doing business"....

[Peter J]

So they will abandon their anti-Papacy convictions to take our money, eh?

For what it's worth, I think you're being a little overly harsh. Imagine an Anglican "priest" approached a Catholic tailor with some vestments that needed repairs. Would the Catholic tailor say "Sorry, you'll have to take your business elsewhere, since I don't consider you to be a real priest."? Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't ... but if he didn't, it wouldn't make him a bad Catholic, right?

[Melodist]

In this case it was a gift.

I was responding to this:

I get the impression that some people may be taking this way too far. A Roman Catholic hired a company owned by Orthodox christians to make the tiara. I could be mistaken, but I believe the Orthodox included in the presentation were representing their company and workmanship, not the Church.

So they will abandon their anti-Papacy convictions to take our money, eh? If someone offered me money to go out and distribute Chick tracts I know what my answer would be, regardless of the amount offered.

It's more like if you ran a clothing store and he wnated to you to taylor a suit for him. You can't expect everyone only to do business with co-religionists.

It is interesting that you would see caritas as "doing business"....

That's what his situation is. Yes, there could be something said about the cooperation involved. There might be a level of open heartedness in offering the job to Orthodox christians. The same could be said about the willingness to accept the job and putting some quality into the work. The attitude of good will involved on both sides is something that would bring us closer if it were shared by everyone, but I just don't think this is really as big of a deal as everyone is making it out to be.

Honestly, I think more is accomplished by regular people doing little things like buying and sharing icons, medals, books, etc.