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Author Topic: ROCOR-MP=OCA HIERACHICAL DIVINE LITURGY  (Read 2597 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 24, 2011, 06:44:30 AM »

His Beautitude Metropolitan Jonah of the Orthodox Church in America (formerly Metropolia), His Eminence Metropolitan Hilarion of Eastern America & New York, First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia and His Eminence Archbishop Justinian of Naro-Fominsk, Administrator of Patriarchal Parishes of the Patriarchate of Moscow and All Russia in the US will concelebrate in the Russian Patriarchal Cathedral in New York, on 11/24 May 2011, in celebration of the Feast of St. Kirill and Name Day of His Holiness the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia, Kirill II, the most senior cleric of the Russian Orthodox Church.

Is this the first celebration between heads of ROCOR and the Metropolia (OCA) in many decades? Whatever - it is a blessed event in the life of the Russian Church of the diaspora.
http://www.russianchurchusa.org/ru/anonses/198
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« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2011, 06:52:04 AM »

Thanks for the good news!
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« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2011, 07:17:49 PM »

Here is the report from the Eastern Diocese along with quite a few photos.


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http://eadiocese.org/News/2011/may/pknmsdy/index.html
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« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2011, 08:02:42 PM »

This is a beautiful event in the life of the Church.

It is good when men dwell together in unity.
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« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2011, 08:23:12 PM »



From left to right: HG Bishop Jerome, HE Archbishop Justinian, HB Metropolitan Jonah, HE Metropolitan Hilarion, and HG Bishop Tikhon?
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« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2011, 10:31:19 PM »



From left to right: HG Bishop Jerome, HE Archbishop Justinian, HB Metropolitan Jonah, HE Metropolitan Hilarion, and HG Bishop Tikhon?
Yes, it is HG Tikhon.

What is interesting is that Abp. Justinian is not on the dias, in particularly given his role as ex offiicio vice chairman of the Episcopal Assembly.
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« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2011, 12:02:39 AM »

Archbishop Justinian's an auxiliary to Patriarch Cyril, not a ruling bishop. Given that St. Nicholas' is just a representation he doesn't have any place on the dias when Metropolitan Jonah is present...
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« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2011, 10:30:59 AM »

Was it in Church Slavonic or in English?
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« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2011, 10:53:35 AM »

Archbishop Justinian's an auxiliary to Patriarch Cyril, not a ruling bishop. Given that St. Nicholas' is just a representation he doesn't have any place on the dias when Metropolitan Jonah is present...
And in terms of the Russian Church, he is junior to the First Hierarch of the Russian Church Abroad.


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« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2011, 12:38:03 PM »

"And in terms of the Russian Church, he is junior to the First Hierarch of the Russian Church Abroad."

I believe if you check out the 1970 tomos you will find that the Russian Orthodox Church views Metropolitan Jonah as senior to Metropolitan Hilarion as the latter heads a self-governing church, whereas the former is the head of an autocephalous church. Whether the ROCOR itself likes this or not is rather beside the point :-).
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« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2011, 01:57:38 PM »

"And in terms of the Russian Church, he is junior to the First Hierarch of the Russian Church Abroad."

I believe if you check out the 1970 tomos you will find that the Russian Orthodox Church views Metropolitan Jonah as senior to Metropolitan Hilarion as the latter heads a self-governing church, whereas the former is the head of an autocephalous church. Whether the ROCOR itself likes this or not is rather beside the point :-).



I think you may have misunderstood. He means that Archbishop Justinian is junior to Metropolitan Hilarion.
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« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2011, 02:00:39 PM »

Ah gotcha. My apologies!
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« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2011, 02:11:31 PM »

This is awesome.
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« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2011, 02:18:09 PM »

Archbishop Justinian's an auxiliary to Patriarch Cyril, not a ruling bishop. Given that St. Nicholas' is just a representation he doesn't have any place on the dias when Metropolitan Jonah is present...
And in terms of the Russian Church, he is junior to the First Hierarch of the Russian Church Abroad.
Do you mean Met. Jonah, or Abp. Justinian?

If Abp. Justinian, why is Met. Hilarion not vice-chairman ex officio of the EA?

Quote


thanks for the picture, although I don't see how it supports your assertion.  Btw. I wonder why Abp. Justinian did not sign.
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« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2011, 02:31:35 PM »

It is odd that a glorified auxiliary bishop would head Nova SCOBA in North America while leaving out a metropolitan and head of a worldwide church...
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« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2011, 04:32:33 PM »

It is odd that a glorified auxiliary bishop would head Nova SCOBA in North America while leaving out a metropolitan and head of a worldwide church...

An interesting message indeed, especially for those within the OCA who expect Moscow to stand by them and their beleaguered Metropolitan. There is no better entertainment than to see Byzantine politics at work, and love 'em or not, all of our Bishops are well trained in its historicity and complexity for better or for worse.
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« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2011, 04:47:37 PM »

Christos Voskrese!
It is odd that a glorified auxiliary bishop would head Nova SCOBA in North America while leaving out a metropolitan and head of a worldwide church...

An interesting message indeed, especially for those within the OCA who expect Moscow to stand by them and their beleaguered Metropolitan.
Not a problem at all. Quite the contrary.  The EA are set up as being representatives of all the autocephalous Churches, in which case the local primate doesn't matter (e.g. in the olden days  the Roman legates taking first place at Constantinople when the EP was present). The seperate status of Met. Hilarion and Met. Jonah, but the latter not being with Abp. Justinian is determinative.
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« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2011, 05:18:09 PM »

It is odd that a glorified auxiliary bishop would head Nova SCOBA in North America while leaving out a metropolitan and head of a worldwide church...

An interesting message indeed, especially for those within the OCA who expect Moscow to stand by them and their beleaguered Metropolitan. There is no better entertainment than to see Byzantine politics at work, and love 'em or not, all of our Bishops are well trained in its historicity and complexity for better or for worse.

It may have been done that way because of the circumstances that existed at the time prior to the establishment of the EA. On the Russian side, they had the issue of squaring the Tomos for the autocephaly of the OCA with the existence of ROCOR. Remember that ROCOR leadership for a long time had considered the Metropolia/OCA to be schismatic. Putting the ROCOR Metropolitan as the senior ROC bishop, thus as a Vice=President of the EA would have given the wrong signal regarding MP's continued support of OCA. Now that the rift between ROCOR and OCA has been healed at the top level, it may be possible for +Hilarion to replace +Justinian as the representative of the MP. However, according to the Tomos, the primate of the OCA is the head of the local church and thus should be superior to any ROC bishop. Too much hassle, too many complications--therefore +Justinian. And, I am not even going to speculate what kind of reaction any change would get from Constantinople. I think it is good, for the forseable future, that OCA does not push to sit at the head table (I think that +Jonah should sit on it, but it is not something, on which he should fall on his sword.)
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« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2011, 05:38:57 PM »

"And in terms of the Russian Church, he is junior to the First Hierarch of the Russian Church Abroad."

I believe if you check out the 1970 tomos you will find that the Russian Orthodox Church views Metropolitan Jonah as senior to Metropolitan Hilarion as the latter heads a self-governing church, whereas the former is the head of an autocephalous church. Whether the ROCOR itself likes this or not is rather beside the point :-).



I think you may have misunderstood. He means that Archbishop Justinian is junior to Metropolitan Hilarion.
Yes I meant Archbishop Justinian not His Beautitude.
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« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2011, 05:43:28 PM »

It is odd that a glorified auxiliary bishop would head Nova SCOBA in North America while leaving out a metropolitan and head of a worldwide church...

An interesting message indeed, especially for those within the OCA who expect Moscow to stand by them and their beleaguered Metropolitan. There is no better entertainment than to see Byzantine politics at work, and love 'em or not, all of our Bishops are well trained in its historicity and complexity for better or for worse.

It may have been done that way because of the circumstances that existed at the time prior to the establishment of the EA. On the Russian side, they had the issue of squaring the Tomos for the autocephaly of the OCA with the existence of ROCOR. Remember that ROCOR leadership for a long time had considered the Metropolia/OCA to be schismatic. Putting the ROCOR Metropolitan as the senior ROC bishop, thus as a Vice=President of the EA would have given the wrong signal regarding MP's continued support of OCA. Now that the rift between ROCOR and OCA has been healed at the top level, it may be possible for +Hilarion to replace +Justinian as the representative of the MP. However, according to the Tomos, the primate of the OCA is the head of the local church and thus should be superior to any ROC bishop. Too much hassle, too many complications--therefore +Justinian, precisely because he is an auxiliary to Patrirach Kiril himself. And, I am not even going to speculate what kind of reaction any change would get from Constantinople. I think it is good, for the foreseeable future, that OCA does not push to sit at the head table (I think that +Jonah should sit on it, but it is not something, on which he should fall on his sword.)
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« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2011, 04:44:57 AM »

Was it a primatial Liturgy (commemorating other Primates on Great Entrance etc.) or not?
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« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2011, 07:59:48 AM »

A Primacial Liturgy is a Divine Liturgy Service that is celebrated by a Primate (a First Hierarch) of a Church; "Archierarchical" could be another term used for a senior bishop celebrant, commonly used for primate celebrants too.
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« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2011, 10:23:20 AM »

Was it such a Liturgy or not? I'm asking in the context of recognition of the OCA's autocephaly by the ROCOR.
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« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2011, 10:31:48 AM »

Was it such a Liturgy or not? I'm asking in the context of recognition of the OCA's autocephaly by the ROCOR.

I was thinking about this a bit and concluded that there are too many tea leaves floating about and we probably ought not to be reading into them. I am truly sorry if my previous post elicited such a response.

The thing is, that given the historical enmity that existed for much of the 20th century between ROCOR and the Metropolia (and by extension, frankly, between ROCOR and pretty much everyone else who now comprise SCOBA/EA) we should rejoice and be glad in the that this reconciliation took place and that they are moving beyond the past. Those of us old enough to remember those days surely know this to be true. It often seemed then that the prospect of a Liturgy taking place as did the other day was a remote as one concebrated between east and west themselves! Thanks be to God!
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« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2011, 11:08:03 AM »

Christ is risen!
Was it such a Liturgy or not? I'm asking in the context of recognition of the OCA's autocephaly by the ROCOR.
It wouldn't matter so much, as even if it was not, Abp. Justinian, whose Cathedral it was celebrated, HB Jonah is commemorated by Moscow's orders.  But I suspect, given that Met. Jonah was present, that the diptychs were read, Abp. Justinian, if not someone else, commemorating Jonah.  Such was done when the EP was in Russia during the last meeting of the Assembly of Bishops here.  I dare say, given the good will going around, that Met. Hilarion enjoyed hearing Met. Jonah's name far more than the EP did.
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« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2011, 11:38:57 AM »

"I dare say, given the good will going around, that Met. Hilarion enjoyed hearing Met. Jonah's name far more than the EP did."

Indeed :-).
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« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2011, 11:59:12 AM »

Nice enough letter, but I would have fancied it being in Russian seeing that Patriarch Kyrill is in Russia.  Maybe two copies were sent, one in English and one in Russian? 
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« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2011, 04:28:19 PM »

Re. Reply No. 22, Michal, Referring to the Liturgy as "Primacial," has nothing to do with recognition or non-recognition of the OCA's autocephaly.  The term could be applied to any "primate," being the celebrant.  If Archbishop Demetrios of America were the celebrant, it could be referred to as a Primacial Liturgy, as His Eminence is the President of the Holy Eparchial Synod of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, its "Primate;" certainly not the primate of an autocephalos church.
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« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2011, 04:33:29 PM »

I'm not asking about vocabulary. I'm asking whether it was a Liturgy served as ususally by a Primate of the autocephalous Church (it differes from the Liturgy served by a normal Bishop) or not.
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« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2011, 04:43:05 PM »

"Referring to the Liturgy as "Primacial," has nothing to do with recognition or non-recognition of the OCA's autocephaly."

Michal's right. As was written above, a primatial Divine Liturgy (as opposed to a hierarchical Divine Liturgy) includes the commemoration of the other primates of the autocephalous Orthodox Churches. Given the ROCOR's past vocal opposition to the OCA's autocephaly (despite its own decision to reconcile with Moscow) it would be interesting to know whether Metropolitan Jonah served a simple hierarchical Liturgy or a primatial one.
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« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2011, 05:05:55 PM »

Christ is risen!
"Referring to the Liturgy as "Primacial," has nothing to do with recognition or non-recognition of the OCA's autocephaly."

Michal's right. As was written above, a primatial Divine Liturgy (as opposed to a hierarchical Divine Liturgy) includes the commemoration of the other primates of the autocephalous Orthodox Churches. Given the ROCOR's past vocal opposition to the OCA's autocephaly (despite its own decision to reconcile with Moscow) it would be interesting to know whether Metropolitan Jonah served a simple hierarchical Liturgy or a primatial one.
If he did at Jordanville, it would mean a lot.  In Moscow's metochion, I'm not sure.
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« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2011, 11:29:07 PM »

I'm not asking about vocabulary. I'm asking whether it was a Liturgy served as ususally by a Primate of the autocephalous Church (it differes from the Liturgy served by a normal Bishop) or not.

Your question is a valid question because, in the Moscow tradition, there is an extra part around the Trisagion Hymn where "Many Years" is sung to each primate of the sister churches. Those who are not on the influence of Moscow do not do this and therefore do not perceive a difference between a Primate and a regular Bishop serving.

Just as a side note, when the head a local church serves he does commemorate the heads of the sister churches during the Great Entrance when he receives the Diskos whereas, when a non-primate serves he commemorates his Patriarch or Archbishop and the members of his synod.
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« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2011, 10:19:43 AM »

Those who are not on the influence of Moscow do not do this and therefore do not perceive a difference between a Primate and a regular Bishop serving.

Thank you. Much clearer now.
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« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2011, 01:07:33 PM »

I'm not asking about vocabulary. I'm asking whether it was a Liturgy served as ususally by a Primate of the autocephalous Church (it differes from the Liturgy served by a normal Bishop) or not.

Your question is a valid question because, in the Moscow tradition, there is an extra part around the Trisagion Hymn where "Many Years" is sung to each primate of the sister churches. Those who are not on the influence of Moscow do not do this and therefore do not perceive a difference between a Primate and a regular Bishop serving.

Just as a side note, when the head a local church serves he does commemorate the heads of the sister churches during the Great Entrance when he receives the Diskos whereas, when a non-primate serves he commemorates his Patriarch or Archbishop and the members of his synod.

Thank you for explaining, I had no idea what they were talking about.
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Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

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« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2011, 01:45:11 PM »

Any chance there was an audio file of the liturgy?  angel
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