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Author Topic: They are still stealing our saints!  (Read 7852 times) Average Rating: 0
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Amadeus
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« Reply #45 on: June 10, 2004, 04:46:32 PM »

Dear Fr. Deacon Lance:

Our Lady was supposed to have said to the little girl in that apparition:

Quote
My name is Mother of perpetual Help.

No century or country can claim me.

I belong to all ages and all peoples.
[/b]

As to the worldwide devotion to the miraculous icon of Our Mother of Perpetual Help, Her shrine in the Philippines is said to be the largest (maintained by the Redemptorist Fathers) in the Far East, seating 12,000 devotees, and second largest in the world next to St. Peter's basilica in terms of seating capacity.

However, the number of devotees during the weekly Novena on Wednesdays exceeds 100,000:

http://themissionchurch.com/omph.htm#THE%20PHILIPPINES

From Rome to Brooklyn, NY, and to other large shrines in Ireland, England, Wales, Scotland, India, Sri Lanka, Malaysia, Singapore, and Africa. It is, therefore, a wondrous "gift" from the East, through Rome,  to the whole world!

Indeed, the good has conquered the evil!

Amado
« Last Edit: June 10, 2004, 04:49:34 PM by Amadeus » Logged
Orthodoc
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« Reply #46 on: June 10, 2004, 04:50:21 PM »

[Note the words "can work good from evil."

Sounds to me like he's admitting that it was stolen.]

What he's doing is trying to justify going against the 8th Commandment - "Thou shalt not steal'.

Orthodoc

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« Reply #47 on: June 10, 2004, 05:07:04 PM »

[It is, therefore, a wondrous "gift" from the East, through Rome,  to the whole world!]

Oh, so now it becomes a "GIFT".  

It's amazing how the Theotokos always suddenly appears with a statement of justification right after a misdeed or change in the theology of Rome to justify it!

How this Holy woman who Scripture tells us her only role was to play an important part in the Incarnation. And who was to spend a lifetime pointing us towards her son  always appears to Roman Catholics by bestowing a title of glory  upon HERSELF first - ('I am the Immaculate Conception'.  'My Immaculate Heart is to be dedicated to Russia.'  etc.)  with little or no mention of her son.  How she always puts herself first when supposedly speaking to Roman Catholics.  And, in some cases even asks for churches to be built in her honor rather than her sons.

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« Last Edit: June 10, 2004, 05:09:53 PM by Orthodoc » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: June 10, 2004, 05:23:18 PM »

Quote
What he's doing is trying to justify going against the 8th Commandment - "Thou shalt not steal'.

Are you going to justify the theft of the remains of St. Nicholas?  After all, the Greeks are still pi$$ed about that, you know.

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Orthodoc
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« Reply #49 on: June 10, 2004, 05:53:03 PM »

[Are you going to justify the theft of the remains of St. Nicholas?  After all, the Greeks are still pi$$ed about that, you know.]

Schultz:

I don't justify the theft of anything by anyone...period!

Orthodoc
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Deacon Lance
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« Reply #50 on: June 10, 2004, 06:21:07 PM »

Shultz,

"Are you going to justify the theft of the remains of St. Nicholas?  After all, the Greeks are still pi$$ed about that, you know."

The Slavs did that along time ago by proclaiming the removal of the relics a translation and establishing it as a feast day.

Troparion of the Feast
Tone 4
A day of festal joy has come.  The city of Bari rejoices, and the world sings with it.  Today we celebrate the transfer of the relics of the wonderworking and holy Nicholas.  Just as the perfect Light has gleamed in glory, so does Nicholas disperse the darkness of temptation for those who sing out: Save us as a patron, O Nicholas.

Kontakion of the Feast
Tone 3
Like a star rising in the East, your relics have arisen and come to the West.  The waters of the sea have been hallowed by your passage, and the city of Bari has received grace from you.  You are truly a most wonderful miracle-worker and a merciful prelate; therefore, we praise you.

Icon of the Feast
http://www.oca.org/pages/dwp/large.asp?saintid=101336

The Prologue of Ohrid on the Feast
THE TRANSLATION OF THE RELICS OF SAINT NICHOLAS THE WONDER-WORKER OF MYRA IN LYCIA.

During the reign of Emperor Alexius Commenus and Patriarch NicholasGrammaticus, the body of this saint was translated from Myra in Lycia to the town of Bari in Italy in 1007 A.D. This occurred because of the assault of the Muslims on Lycia. The saint appeared in a dream to an honorable priest in Bari and ordered that his relics be translated to this town. At that time, Bari was Orthodox and under the Orthodox Patriarch. During the translation of the relics of this saint many miracles occurred either by touching the relics or from the myrrh [oil] which abundantly flowed from his relics. "Also on this day, is commemorated the miracle of St. Nicholas to the Serbian King, Stephan of Decani: how St. Nicholas restored the sight to the blinded King Stephan.

Fr. Deacon Lance


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« Reply #51 on: June 10, 2004, 06:23:24 PM »

"It's amazing how the Theotokos always suddenly appears with a statement of justification right after a misdeed or change in the theology of Rome to justify it!"

"The saint appeared in a dream to an honorable priest in Bari and ordered that his relics be translated to this town. At that time, Bari was Orthodox and under the Orthodox Patriarch."

It is comforing to know that it is not just the Latin Catholics that have the saints appear to them and ask for the translation of relics.

Fr. Deacon Lance


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« Reply #52 on: June 10, 2004, 06:47:19 PM »

Excellent choice of words Amadeus.

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« Reply #53 on: June 11, 2004, 12:29:11 PM »

I thought this was a topic about a French chaplain allegedly stealing relics.

Has anyone found any additional information on this topic?
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Amadeus
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« Reply #54 on: June 11, 2004, 01:41:07 PM »

Cizinec:

A running commentary on this incident is available at:

http://www.kosovo.net/node/view/262

Some facts I gleaned from this one-sided view:

1. The Orthodox Churches were burned and/or destroyed by Albanian Muslims during the March 2004 "progrom."

2. During or immediately after the wanton destruction, Fr. Christian Venard came all the way from Bosnia to remove the relics from the destroyed Churches for "safekeeping." The removal of the relics did happen and, apparently, Fr. Christian Venard was accompanied by "international military escorts" to the Churches. (It has not been determined yet who authorized Fr. Venard. The Roman Catholic diocese/ bishop of the area denied any foreknowledge of Fr. Venard's actions.)

3. All relics remained in Kosovo. Fr. Venard, after "rescuing" the relics and turning them over to (not yet determined) for safekeeping, returned to Bosnia.

4. One relic has been returned by the French military authorities in Kosovo. Apparently, all relics are in the possession of the French military authorities. (Fr. Venard was to have stated during the "rescue" that he would turn all the relics over to the "local bishop.")

5. The last 2 relics (subject of Orthodoc's initial post) were alleged to have been returned already by the French military authorities but the commentaries say otherwise. The Roman Catholic bishop of the area also wants to know what is happening.

My personal observations:

1. This could be an "altruistic" gesture on the part of the French cleric (he is not a Chaplain of the French military in the area) or on the part of Roman Catholic Church in Bosnia (not Kosovo), realizing that Serbian Orthodox clergy might be hurt or attacked by the Albanian Muslims.

2. From the point of view of the Serbian Orthodox authorities, it is "theft" if they never authrized the removals.

3. From the point of view of Fr. Venard and whoever instructed him to go from Bosnia to Kosovo and "rescue" those relics, it appears helping out brother Christians, the Orthodox.

Amado
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« Reply #55 on: June 11, 2004, 01:47:26 PM »

Thank you.  This is the kind of source I was asking for.

The only thing I can see being wrong about the whole thing is keeping the Serbian Orthodox bishops out of the loop.  Note that its apparently the French who have it, and not the Roman Catholic Church.  I can only assume that is who Orthodoc is referring to by the "They" in the subject title.
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cizinec
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« Reply #56 on: June 15, 2004, 01:38:54 PM »

"The only thing I can see being wrong about the whole thing is keeping the Serbian Orthodox bishops out of the loop."

Well, that and not giving it back.
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« Reply #57 on: June 15, 2004, 02:14:13 PM »

Well, yes, of course.  I was referring to the process itself. Smiley
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