Author Topic: They are still stealing our saints!  (Read 8248 times)

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Offline Orthodoc

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They are still stealing our saints!
« on: June 10, 2004, 03:39:14 AM »


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2004.06.09 Kathimerini/AP:

Priest
The Serbian Orthodox Church in Kosovo accused a French military priest
yesterday of stealing the remains of two Serbian saints. The church said in
a statement that the French chaplain, identified as Christian Venard,
visited in March two destroyed Serb churches in Kosovo and "took away" the
remains sealed in rock coffins. The chaplain "did this on the pretext that
he was saving the sainthood from Muslim" attacks, the statement said.
French peacekeepers later denied the allegation. (AP)

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Orthodoc

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Offline Frobie

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2004, 07:46:15 AM »
Just because somebody makes an allegation doesn't mean it happened, Orthodoc. Don't fall into the Pokrov trap.

Offline Orthodoc

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2004, 09:18:12 AM »
[Just because somebody makes an allegation doesn't mean it happened, Orthodoc. Don't fall into the Pokrov trap.]

The Serbian Orthodox Church is not just 'somebody' Frobie!

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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2004, 09:38:09 AM »
Frobie,

You silly.  If it is an allegation against Catholics it is always true.  If it is an allegation against Orthodox it is always false. That's the Orthodoc way.  ::)

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« Last Edit: June 10, 2004, 09:40:18 AM by Deacon Lance »
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Offline Orthodoc

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2004, 09:59:54 AM »
You silly.  If it is an allegation against Catholics it is always true.  If it is an allegation against Orthodox it is always false. That's the Orthodoc way.  

Fr. Deacon Lance

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Fr Deacon Lance:

If you find my defense of my Orthodox Catholic faith so offensive and one sided then don't read my posts or stay out of this Orthodox website.

You have yet to prove me wrong.

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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2004, 10:02:11 AM »
Frobie,

You silly.  If it is an allegation against Catholics it is always true.  If it is an allegation against Orthodox it is always false. That's the Orthodoc way.  ::)

Fr. Deacon Lance


Funny, Deacon Lance.
I was ready to bet my next paycheck that would be your input here  ;)

I assume from your tone that you think the Serbian Orthodox Church contrived this.

Demetri
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Offline ambrosemzv

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2004, 10:10:23 AM »
Come on, y'all.  It remains to be seen whether there is anything behind the allegation--if the military chaplain did this, he might well have done for just the reason he said.  The Serbian Orthodox Church could use some friends right now; it'd make sense for them to keep their cool and not prematurely assume the worst, I'd think.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2004, 10:20:44 AM »
Demetri,

I have no idea, it may be true and would not shock me.  However, on the Pokrov thread Orthodoc readily dismmissed a news article as unreliable and proving nothing,  yet everyone he can find that disparages the Catholic Church he posts as if it is the undisputed truth.

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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2004, 10:26:19 AM »
"If you find my defense of my Orthodox Catholic faith so offensive and one sided then don't read my posts or stay out of this Orthodox website.

You have yet to prove me wrong."

Ridiculous and one sided, not offensive.  I have no need to prove you wrong as the double standard of your postings is obvious. And I plan to keep reading your posts and calling you on them if for no other reason than to prevent you from bullying Catholics that visit this site.

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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2004, 10:30:42 AM »
Come on, y'all.  It remains to be seen whether there is anything behind the allegation...

No, ambrosemzv, you've seen the end of this. There will be no investigation - KFOR might have to back the Serbian Orthodox, something they won't do.
The chaplin's denial will be enough for them.

Demetri
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2004, 10:34:35 AM »
However, on the Pokrov thread Orthodoc readily dismmissed a news article as unreliable and proving nothing...

Perhaps at the outset it this would seem so. Subsequent development in that thread, however, tend to support Orthodoc's assertions, IMO.

Demetri
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Offline Schultz

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2004, 10:42:01 AM »
That may be true, Demetri, but I have to take Deacon Lance's side in this one.  All we have now are accusations coming from a war-torn country where the fog of war distorts all sorts of facts, mostly without malice.

I think just because the person who removed the relics isn't Orthodox, our friend Orthodoc has assumed the worst.  Because he's Catholic, his motives MUST be nefarious, right?  

I thought we should assume someone innocent until proven guilty?  It seems to me that Orthodoc has already assumed the guilt of the priest in question without any evidence.  Again, the fog of war is deep in Kosovo.

If it turns out to be true, I'll be just as upset as Orthodoc is until the relics are returned to the Serbian Orthodox Church.
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2004, 10:59:36 AM »
What you don't seem to understand, Schultz, is that there won't BE any evidence. French denial=case closed.

Demetri
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Offline Schultz

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2004, 11:06:43 AM »
So the only evidence we have is an accusation by church authorities (who, of course, are never wrong about such things!) and an unsourced quote from the priest.

Sounds like a cut and dry case to me.  Hang the SOB.
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline Amadeus

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2004, 11:09:02 AM »
And why in the world would a French cleric do this?

France has enough saints already.  And St. Bernadette of Our Lady of Lourdes might "lose" her irenic smile in jealousy. ;)

Otherwise, the Serbian Orthodox Church should unconditionally show that the 2 relics are as miraculous as those of St. Bernadette, courtesy of Our Lady of Lourdes, or more!

Catholics won't "steal" for nothing! ;D

Amado

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2004, 11:20:13 AM »
So the only evidence we have is an accusation by church authorities (who, of course, are never wrong about such things!) and an unsourced quote from the priest.

Sounds like a cut and dry case to me.  Hang the SOB.

As I said, you don't understand.
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Offline Saint Polycarp

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2004, 11:43:39 AM »
If a Friench priest really took the relics I would immagine it would have been to preserve them. If I was there and I thought there was a danger of a Saint's relics being desecrated I would try and save them too. Of coarse I would give them to the Serbian Church asap.
So now we have to wonder did the priest really take them? If he did and dosen't return them then he is not acting in a manner that the Catholic Church would aprove of. So he's acting on his own and not for the Church.
Peace

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2004, 12:04:56 PM »
So now we have to wonder did the priest really take them? If he did and dosen't return them then he is not acting in a manner that the Catholic Church would aprove of. So he's acting on his own and not for the Church.

Good questions all, SP.
We'll never know.
If K-FOR had done its job, there would have been no burned out churches in the first place to even have the issue of 'rescued relics"over.

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Offline Schultz

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2004, 12:10:07 PM »
Quote
As I said, you don't understand.

I do understand.  What I don't understand is that people are being accused of "stealing saints" when there is NO evidence.  It doesn't matter if there never will be evidence, the simple fact is, if Orthodoc met this priest on the street, there's NO doubt in my mind he would assail the poor man w/o ever listening to a word he says because the Serbian Orthodox Church has accused this man, and therefore he is guilty.  God forbid that a Church could be wrong about something.
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Offline JoeS

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2004, 12:16:45 PM »
If this is not true, then there is nothing to worry about.  But, if it is true then I doubt if the Serbian Church will see those relics again.  Finder keepers.

JoeS   >:(

So the only evidence we have is an accusation by church authorities (who, of course, are never wrong about such things!) and an unsourced quote from the priest.

Sounds like a cut and dry case to me.  Hang the SOB.

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2004, 12:20:01 PM »
What I don't understand is that people are being accused of "stealing saints" when there is NO evidence.  

That is only your assumption. By naming the priest and stating two churches (why not just one if this is 'made up'?) it would seem the Church does indeed know more.

Demetri
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Offline Schultz

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2004, 12:34:07 PM »
And its your assumption that there is.

Maybe I'm just too sensitive about this because of my experience in accusations.  I've known people who have been close to be accused of something they didn't do who have been either imprisoned or beaten because of the accusation.

My only point is that until I see evidence other than of "he said/she said" type, its just wild fingerpointing, ESPECIALLY coming from a war-zone.
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Offline cizinec

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2004, 12:45:51 PM »
I don't care what the participants are accused of doing actively.  KFOR has stood by and watched churches and monasteries burn and did nothing while protecting the freedom of Kosovo and its inhabitants was there self-proclamed excuse for invading.  

They chose to stand by silently and watch while Orthodox people were burned out of their homes and murdered.  Qui tacet consentire videtur.  

This particular accusation may or may not be true, but in the end they are responsible for the destruction of Kosovo.
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Offline cizinec

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2004, 12:59:21 PM »
Let's put some images with the discussion.

http://www.kosovo.com/pogrom_march/mitrovica_stsava/page_01.htm

My roomate from college was sent to Bosnia in 1996.  While there they were supposed to protect an Orthodox church.  They handed their watch over to some French soldiers.  The next day they came back and found the church destroyed.  When they asked the French what had happened they said, "Nothing.  Why, has something happened?"

Unless, of course, my friend (a German Roman Catholic) is lying about this to protect the Serbs.

This is all to say, I do not doubt the capabilities of the French army to commit crimes and lie about it.  It wouldn't be the first time.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2004, 01:01:53 PM by cizinec »
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Offline TomS

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2004, 01:08:15 PM »
Wow! That is absolutely obscene!!!

The troops stood by and did NOTHING???!!!!!

Offline ania

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2004, 01:11:07 PM »
Well, as far as Catholics not approving of stealing Ortho relics... there are issues of several well known icons that are definately held now by the Vatican, and I've also heard (though it might be speculation & rumor) that the iconastas from the original Christ the Savior Cathedral is also in the Vatican.
Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...

Offline Amadeus

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2004, 01:14:16 PM »
I beleive we are discussing about a French Catholic priest and not about a French soldier or the French army.

Because they are BOTH French, are we indicating here that they have the same propensities?

What an absurdity!

Amado

Offline Elisha

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2004, 01:19:49 PM »
Wow! That is absolutely obscene!!!

The troops stood by and did NOTHING???!!!!!


Damn! Surf Control won't let me look at the pics.  I guess I'll have to wait until I get home.

Offline TomS

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2004, 01:24:21 PM »
That whole site is a real eye-opener. I had no ideal that this stuff was happening on such a scale. I thought it was just one or two bad eggs making trouble over there. Very disturbing.

Offline Orthodoc

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2004, 01:25:50 PM »
{Well, as far as Catholics not approving of stealing Ortho relics... there are issues of several well known icons that are definately held now by the Vatican, and I've also heard (though it might be speculation & rumor) that the iconastas from the original Christ the Savior Cathedral is also in the Vatican. }

The Icon they now call 'Our Lady of Perpetual Help'  which was stolen from a Greek Orthodox Chuch by an Italian wine merchant and taken back to Rome.  Knowing that is was stolen property didn't stop the RCC from accepting it.

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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2004, 01:37:55 PM »
A more complete account of the Icon of Our Lady of Perpetual Help:

Our Lady of Perpetual Help Icon Has Colorful History

... The icon arrived in Rome in the 15th century after a merchant who had heard about a miraculous image on the island of Crete went to the island and stole it. When he arrived in Rome with the icon among his wares, he fell very ill. As he lay dying, he ordered that a friend place the icon in a church, perhaps hoping that it would alleviate his suffering. The friend took the icon to his own home, where his wife hung it in their bedroom.

The Virgin evidently was not pleased with this arrangement, and several times appeared to the man and told him that she wished for her image to be placed in a church. The man, despite the miraculous visitation, was not moved to relinquish control of the image. The Blessed Virgin next appeared to the man's daughter and asked that the icon be enshrined in a church between the two very large churches of St. Mary Major and St. John Lateran. The daughter communicated this to her father and he relented, and so the icon was enshrined in 1499 in St. Matthew's, the church that lies between the two larger edifices.

Pilgrims flocked to the small church for 300 years to pray before the miraculous image, until Napoleon's invading army destroyed the church in 1798. Once the soldiers had left the area, people searched the ruins looking for the image but could not locate it anywhere. It seemed that the image had been lost, and for the next 60 years there was no mention of it.

In 1855, the Order of Redemptorists came to Rome and were granted possession of the location where St. Matthew's had once stood to build a church in honor of their founder, St. Alphonsus Liguori. It happened that a young Redemptorist priest remembered that as a young boy he had been told of a miraculous image that had once been enshrined in the previous church. The image had been safely transferred to an Augustinian monastery near Rome.

When the Redemptorists heard of this, they petitioned the pope to allow the image to be returned to the spot that the Blessed Virgin had requested. The pope granted their request and further commissioned the Redemptorist order to spread devotion to Our Lady of Perpetual Help throughout the world. The image was transferred in a solemn procession on April 26, 1866, to the Church of St. Alphonsus.

Today, replicas of the image of Our Lady of Perpetual Help grace the altars of countless churches throughout the world.


Michael Dubruiel is a book-acquisitions editor at Our Sunday Visitor. This article was excerpted from his book, "The Church's Most Powerful Novenas," to be released spring 2000 by Our Sunday Visitor.

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Offline Amadeus

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2004, 01:51:56 PM »
I am unsure whether this merits consideration here, but the Italian soldiers in Kosovo, upon the appeal of 2 Serbian Orthodox monks made to Rome, have been protecting Orthodox Churches and monasteries, prompting questions as to why the monks did not ask the Russian soldiers (who have already left Kosovo a while back) in the first place.

Or, you never came across this news item?

http://www.zenit.org/english.visualizza.phtml?sid=54663

Some Orthodox cynics have been forewarning all those who want to listen that the Vatican is bent on making Serbia a "Roman Catholic state!"

Tsk, tsk!

Amado

Offline Orthodoc

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2004, 01:58:26 PM »
Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.

Offline cizinec

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2004, 01:59:01 PM »
" I beleive we are discussing about a French Catholic priest and not about a French soldier or the French army.

Because they are BOTH French, are we indicating here that they have the same propensities?

What an absurdity!

Amado"

I was speaking to the fact that the French Army allows desecretions to occurr and either does nothing or lies.  The French Catholic priest may not have stolen.  He may have just helped the thieves carry it out,  or watched someone else take them, or he may have done nothing wrong at all.  

But by saying a "French Catholic priest" you are excluding that he is a French Catholic chaplain and a member of the French armed forces and a member of KFOR.  KFOR, the French army and the French government have shown themselves to have less than altruistic motives in Kosovo.  The chaplain is a member of and subject to the orders of all three.  He may have seen a crime he desperately wants to report to the public, but is in no position to do so.

I am saying there is more to this story, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the Serbian Patriarchate's complaints are what is most suspicious.
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Offline cizinec

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2004, 02:02:06 PM »
I don't think this is a Catholic troops vs. Orthodox troops here.  The Czech and Slovak troops did very well in protecting churches while the French and German troops watched.  I think it has to do with *why* a particular country is "helping" keep the "peace" in Kosovo.
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Offline Orthodoc

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2004, 02:04:32 PM »

So what are you trying to insinuate Fr Deacon?  That the Theotokos asked to be kidnapped and be taken to Rome?

You Roman Catholics will go to any lengths to justify your evil deeds.


The fact still remains that the Icon was stolen right from a Church.  The Roman Catholic Church fully aware of this accepted it rather than return it to its rightful owners.

But its not the first stolen Orthodox relic the RCC has accepted, is it?  We can go through a thousand years of such incidents.

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Offline Orthodoc

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2004, 02:06:31 PM »
[Some Orthodox cynics have been forewarning all those who want to listen that the Vatican is bent on making Serbia a "Roman Catholic state!"

Tsk, tsk!]

It sure tried its best during WWII!

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Offline Schultz

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2004, 02:18:27 PM »
Orthodoc,

I don't think anyone is trying to downplay the suffering in Kosovo.  Of course what's going on is horrendous.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2004, 02:41:13 PM »
"So what are you trying to insinuate Fr Deacon?  That the Theotokos asked to be kidnapped and be taken to Rome?"
 
I simply offered the legend of the Icon.  I think it shows that Our Lord and Lady can work good from evil.  I will say this, the Icon is well known and venerated by many because of its ultimately resting in Rome.  

The same can be said about the relics of St. Nicholas.  For the Greeks it was a sad day when his relics were taken and they still consider them to be stolen.  On the otherhand, the Slavs celebrate this translation with a feast acknowledging that it was ultimately good that St. Nicholas relics were prevented from being desecrated by the Muslims and could continue to be venerated.  His relics still produce myrrh to this day, hardly a sign of divine disapproval.

"But its not the first stolen Orthodox relic the RCC has accepted, is it?"

No, but the Orthodox Church has its own stolen relics and churches so you hardly have the moral high ground.

Fr. Deacon Lance





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Offline Amadeus

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2004, 02:45:31 PM »
We know the former Yugoslavia had Orthodox, Catholic, and Muslim "states" constitutive of the Federal Republic.

Every one national/ethnic group has agreed to separate ways. Unfortunately, the "province" of Kosovo is not large and strong enough to be independent of Serbia.

Kosovo is predominantly Muslim and the atrocities are attributable to the Muslim Kosovars. Ascribing a portion of the blame to the Catholic Church is clearly misplaced in this instance.

The conflict in Kosovo is a mini "civil war" between Orthodox Serbia and Muslim Kosovo.

Amado

Offline Orthodoc

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2004, 03:55:07 PM »
[I simply offered the legend of the Icon.  I think it shows that Our Lord and Lady can work good from evil.  I will say this, the Icon is well known and venerated by many because of its ultimately resting in Rome.]

WOW!  and YOu accuse ME of thinking the Orthodox Catholic Church can do no wrong and trying to justify its every deed!

Kinda the pot calling the kettle black.  

It's not a legend, Fr Deacon Lance.  IT'S A FACTTHAT THE ICON WAS STOLEN FROM A GREEK ORTHODOX CHURCH and never returned.  IT'S A FACT THAT ONCE AGAIN, THE RCC KNOWLINGLY AND WILLINGLY ACCEPTED STOLEN (HOT) PROPERTY.

A legend is something that may or may not be true.  This truth can be verified.

Orthodoc
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Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.

Offline Ben

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2004, 04:11:11 PM »
Orthodoc......

I don't think deacon Lance meant the Icon being stolen was a legend, rather the part about the Blessed Virgin visting the man who had the Icon and asking for it to be put in a specfic church. I highly doubt anyone here, Orthodox or Catholic, thinks the story of the Icon being stolen is mere legend.
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Schultz

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #42 on: June 10, 2004, 04:17:24 PM »
YEah, Orthodoc.

Note the words "can work good from evil."

Sounds to me like he's admitting that it was stolen.



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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #43 on: June 10, 2004, 04:27:35 PM »
Indeed the article I posted stated quite clearly it was stolen.  This I do not contest.  But I do believe it was Divine Providence working that caused the good of great devotion to come  to this Icon which was stolen (itself an evil act) just as the case with St. Nicholas' relics.
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Offline Orthodoc

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Re:They are still stealing our saints!
« Reply #44 on: June 10, 2004, 04:43:42 PM »
[But I do believe it was Divine Providence working that caused the good of great devotion to come  to this Icon which was stolen (itself an evil act) just as the case with St. Nicholas' relics.]

Or any excuse not to return them to their rightful owners.  Can we use the same lame excuse when you accuse us of perceived abuses?  or does the Roman Catholic Church have a patent on it?

Orthodoc
Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.