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Author Topic: Eastern Catholic/Orthodox Intercommunion and Sunday Obligation  (Read 4981 times) Average Rating: 0
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Maria
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« on: May 19, 2011, 01:40:20 PM »

In the past, some Orthodox bishops have given Melkites permission to receive Holy Communion in the Orthodox Church providing that they regularly confess their sins to the Orthodox Priest. This happens more in the Middle East where Christian Churches are often not accessible due to the persecution by the Islamic authorities.

I knew a Melkite Deacon who was often welcome to receive Holy Communion in Greek Orthodox Churches whenever he was visiting abroad in places where there was no Eastern Catholic Church. The only requirement is that he was to offer his confession, observe the fast, and say the communion canon.

But I must ask, does the Eastern Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Church have a Sunday obligation under pain of mortal sin? I do not think so, as neither church believes in the distinction between mortal and venial sin. Yet, it is understood that we are to keep the Lord's Day holy, and we are expected to attend Saturday Great Vespers (All Night Vigil) and recite the communion canon if we wish to partake of Holy Communion at the Sunday Divine Liturgy. I was told that Eastern Christians who do not attend Vespers and/or Divine Liturgy out of laziness or carelessness should talk with their priest.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 01:46:10 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2011, 01:45:08 PM »

WHAT?!
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« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2011, 02:33:48 PM »

Regarding the last part, I think it would differ from parish to parish and person to person, though I would agree that skipping Liturgy (not so much Vespers) just cause you don't feel like it might be something you should talk with a priest about, not because you have to report to him, but because there's probably some issues that need resolved. After all, Christianity isn't about just doing the stuff you feel like doing and ignoring or setting aside the stuff you're not much into at a particular moment (boy did I just dig myself a hole...)

WHAT?!

What? Smiley
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« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2011, 02:47:58 PM »

First of all, I don't think the Eastern Orthodox are generally okay with Eastern Catholics receiving communion in their parishes, so that's a problem in itself, regardless of Catholic theology.

Secondly, the Catholic Church does not publish a 'list' of what sins are mortal and what sins are venial; it just maintains that there is a distinction between them (there are certain sins which wholly destroy the character of charity and there are certain sins that do not - which do and which don't depend on both action and intention, and different theologians have given different responses, but there is no official classification, and since the disposition of the will is involved, there couldn't be one).

Thirdly, Orthodox consider that you ought to be going to the Liturgy on Sundays of course, but there isn't a direct doctrine of 'sunday obligation' that has official standing like it does in the Catholic Church, I don't believe.
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« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2011, 02:50:12 PM »

A Priest who willingly allows a Catholic Priest or layman to approach the Chalice should be defrocked, period.

An Orthodox believer should not miss 3 Sunday Liturgies in a row without a serious reason.
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« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2011, 04:38:01 PM »

WHAT?!

You were unaware this was going on in the Middle East between the Antiochian Orthodox and Melkite Catholics?
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« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2011, 05:22:53 PM »

A Priest who willingly allows a Catholic Priest or layman to approach the Chalice should be defrocked, period.

Yes!!  Kiss
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« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2011, 05:24:02 PM »

WHAT?!

You were unaware this was going on in the Middle East between the Antiochian Orthodox and Melkite Catholics?

It was dedicated for laymen only, not for concelebrations.
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« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2011, 05:25:23 PM »

Christus resurrexit!
First of all, I don't think the Eastern Orthodox are generally okay with Eastern Catholics receiving communion in their parishes, so that's a problem in itself, regardless of Catholic theology.

Secondly, the Catholic Church does not publish a 'list' of what sins are mortal and what sins are venial; it just maintains that there is a distinction between them (there are certain sins which wholly destroy the character of charity and there are certain sins that do not - which do and which don't depend on both action and intention, and different theologians have given different responses, but there is no official classification, and since the disposition of the will is involved, there couldn't be one).
I recall quite a few such lists.

Thirdly, Orthodox consider that you ought to be going to the Liturgy on Sundays of course, but there isn't a direct doctrine of 'sunday obligation' that has official standing like it does in the Catholic Church, I don't believe.
There is no "obligation": as an Orthodox Christian it is expected that you celebrate at Divine Liturgy every Sunday and major feast day of the Catholic Church.  If you don't three times in a row, since there is no way-without good cause for your absence-you can call yourself an Orthodox Christian, the rules and custom recognizes this by placing an excommunication on you.
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« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2011, 05:27:05 PM »

Christ is risen!
WHAT?!

You were unaware this was going on in the Middle East between the Antiochian Orthodox and Melkite Catholics?
Only among those who say a pox on both (Old and New Rome) their houses.
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« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2011, 05:41:39 PM »

Christ is risen!
WHAT?!

You were unaware this was going on in the Middle East between the Antiochian Orthodox and Melkite Catholics?
Only among those who say a pox on both (Old and New Rome) their houses.
So virtually every Antiochian and Mekite in the Middle East. laugh
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« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2011, 08:17:47 AM »

Only among those who say a pox on both (Old and New Rome) their houses.

You mean the Anglicans?
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« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2011, 11:10:24 AM »

There is no "obligation": as an Orthodox Christian it is expected that you celebrate at Divine Liturgy every Sunday and major feast day of the Catholic Church.
LOL. What do you think obligation means?
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« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2011, 11:30:11 AM »

For what it's worth, I don't particularly like the term "obligation" because it sounds like something you have to do that you may not want to do, and there has never been a time that I didn't want to go to Mass if I was able. Still, it is important to emphasize that, as Christians, we are required to keep the Sabbath holy.
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« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2011, 11:47:29 AM »

Quote from: ialmisry
I recall quite a few such lists.

I'm sure people have made them, it would be a natural tendency, but there is no official such list.

1 John 5:16-17 does put the onus on humans to think about what sins may be mortal and venial, even in others ("If you see your brother or sister committing what is not a mortal sin, you will ask, and God will give life to such a one - to those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin that is mortal; I do not say you should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not mortal.") but I don't think you could go so far as to write down a list that says "These sins are mortal, these sins are venial, all done." and there isn't a list that has official doctrinal standing.
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« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2011, 03:29:51 PM »

For what it's worth, I don't particularly like the term "obligation" because it sounds like something you have to do that you may not want to do, and there has never been a time that I didn't want to go to Mass if I was able. Still, it is important to emphasize that, as Christians, we are required to keep the Sabbath holy.

I do not like the term "obligation" either. However, I know a few Catholics who will attend the shortest Mass they can find, preferably one without a sermon, so that they can get back home within 30 minutes. Unfortunately, they are driven by the fear of hell to attend Mass, otherwise, they might not even attend. Because religion is not a real priority in their homes, and rarely discussed, they were shocked when their own children became pro-abortion, used artificial contraception, and believed in euthanasia. These are Irish-Italian American Catholics too. However, I am glad that they attend at least once a week to "fulfill my 30 minutes of obligatory prayer once a week." Otherwise, things could be far worse.

To be fair, I also know some Orthodox Christians who do not even bother to attend church with the exception of Christmas and Easter. And some of these folks only come on Pascha to "Come take the Light" and then they leave promptly. We call them Cheaster Christian. They give the excuse that their work schedule prevents them from attending Divine Liturgy on Sunday, but when one looks at their work, it involves Little League, Soccer matches, gym matches, or swim meets which are scheduled for Sunday mornings. (Yes, I am talking about Soccer Moms more than Soccer Dads). Would it really help to have an "obligatory" Sunday Divine Liturgy? Would it make any difference in their daily lives as Christians?

We really need to pray for these folks.
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« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2011, 08:43:33 PM »

Have you noticed how you are very particular about some things but...not so much...with others?

For what it's worth, I don't particularly like the term "obligation" because it sounds like something you have to do that you may not want to do, and there has never been a time that I didn't want to go to Mass if I was able. Still, it is important to emphasize that, as Christians, we are required to keep the Sabbath holy.

I do not like the term "obligation" either. However, I know a few Catholics who will attend the shortest Mass they can find, preferably one without a sermon, so that they can get back home within 30 minutes. Unfortunately, they are driven by the fear of hell to attend Mass, otherwise, they might not even attend. Because religion is not a real priority in their homes, and rarely discussed, they were shocked when their own children became pro-abortion, used artificial contraception, and believed in euthanasia. These are Irish-Italian American Catholics too. However, I am glad that they attend at least once a week to "fulfill my 30 minutes of obligatory prayer once a week." Otherwise, things could be far worse.

To be fair, I also know some Orthodox Christians who do not even bother to attend church with the exception of Christmas and Easter. And some of these folks only come on Pascha to "Come take the Light" and then they leave promptly. We call them Cheaster Christian. They give the excuse that their work schedule prevents them from attending Divine Liturgy on Sunday, but when one looks at their work, it involves Little League, Soccer matches, gym matches, or swim meets which are scheduled for Sunday mornings. (Yes, I am talking about Soccer Moms more than Soccer Dads). Would it really help to have an "obligatory" Sunday Divine Liturgy? Would it make any difference in their daily lives as Christians?

We really need to pray for these folks.
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« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2011, 11:33:07 PM »

For what it's worth, I don't particularly like the term "obligation" because it sounds like something you have to do that you may not want to do, and there has never been a time that I didn't want to go to Mass if I was able. Still, it is important to emphasize that, as Christians, we are required to keep the Sabbath holy.

I do not like the term "obligation" either. However, I know a few Catholics who will attend the shortest Mass they can find, preferably one without a sermon, so that they can get back home within 30 minutes. Unfortunately, they are driven by the fear of hell to attend Mass, otherwise, they might not even attend. Because religion is not a real priority in their homes, and rarely discussed, they were shocked when their own children became pro-abortion, used artificial contraception, and believed in euthanasia. These are Irish-Italian American Catholics too. However, I am glad that they attend at least once a week to "fulfill my 30 minutes of obligatory prayer once a week." Otherwise, things could be far worse.

To be fair, I also know some Orthodox Christians who do not even bother to attend church with the exception of Christmas and Easter. And some of these folks only come on Pascha to "Come take the Light" and then they leave promptly. We call them Cheaster Christian. They give the excuse that their work schedule prevents them from attending Divine Liturgy on Sunday, but when one looks at their work, it involves Little League, Soccer matches, gym matches, or swim meets which are scheduled for Sunday mornings. (Yes, I am talking about Soccer Moms more than Soccer Dads). Would it really help to have an "obligatory" Sunday Divine Liturgy? Would it make any difference in their daily lives as Christians?

We really need to pray for these folks.
It seems that the problem is not whether a Church uses the term "obligation" or not. If there is an obligation, people will do the minimum to squeak by, and if there isn't an obligation, people just won't go. The problem, then, seems to be people. That's natural, though, because we are sinners.
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« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2011, 02:01:33 AM »

For what it's worth, I don't particularly like the term "obligation" because it sounds like something you have to do that you may not want to do, and there has never been a time that I didn't want to go to Mass if I was able. Still, it is important to emphasize that, as Christians, we are required to keep the Sabbath holy.

I do not like the term "obligation" either. However, I know a few Catholics who will attend the shortest Mass they can find, preferably one without a sermon, so that they can get back home within 30 minutes. Unfortunately, they are driven by the fear of hell to attend Mass, otherwise, they might not even attend. Because religion is not a real priority in their homes, and rarely discussed, they were shocked when their own children became pro-abortion, used artificial contraception, and believed in euthanasia. These are Irish-Italian American Catholics too. However, I am glad that they attend at least once a week to "fulfill my 30 minutes of obligatory prayer once a week." Otherwise, things could be far worse.

To be fair, I also know some Orthodox Christians who do not even bother to attend church with the exception of Christmas and Easter. And some of these folks only come on Pascha to "Come take the Light" and then they leave promptly. We call them Cheaster Christian. They give the excuse that their work schedule prevents them from attending Divine Liturgy on Sunday, but when one looks at their work, it involves Little League, Soccer matches, gym matches, or swim meets which are scheduled for Sunday mornings. (Yes, I am talking about Soccer Moms more than Soccer Dads). Would it really help to have an "obligatory" Sunday Divine Liturgy? Would it make any difference in their daily lives as Christians?

We really need to pray for these folks.
It seems that the problem is not whether a Church uses the term "obligation" or not. If there is an obligation, people will do the minimum to squeak by, and if there isn't an obligation, people just won't go. The problem, then, seems to be people. That's natural, though, because we are sinners.

Sometimes that is true. The saying of our Lord comes to mind about lukewarmness. How can we start a fire under people?

In my case, I got to the point where I stopped going to the Catholic Mass because I was losing my faith due to Cardinal Mahony's "Liturgical Revolution" as he himself called it. I did not like going to Mass to get entertained, as I felt that I should be worshiping God. However, I certainly did not feel like I was engaged in heavenly worship with scantily clad dancers, so I lost my spiritual focus.

Around this time, I wrote Cardinal Mahony a letter concerning my allergy to the lemon scented air fresheners where present in almost all of the parishes in his archdiocese, but he wrote back giving me a dispensation from attendance at Sunday Mass. Therefore, I was no longer under the "obligation under pain of mortal sin." Some of my Catholic friends became concerned and encouraged me to attend the Tridentine Mass, but it seemed so cold, sober, and silent. In addition, many of the parishioners who attended the Latin Mass were constantly disrespectful of Cardinal Mahony and called him names. This created a very toxic environment. While a few of my Catholic friends encouraged me to visit various Byzantine Catholic churches which were not under Cardinal Mahony, other Catholic friends told me that it would be very anti-American to attend an Arabic or Russian church, even if it were under the Pope, so I vacillated.

Then on Pascha 1993, I almost died of pneumonia which put me in the hospital with a 105 degree F temperature for seven days. The doctor gave me little chance of survival, so I prayed and promised the Lord that I would call the Melkite Church if I survived. A new antibiotic was given to me and I slowly recovered. By the beginning of the Fast of the Theotokos, I had finally recovered, so I was able to attend my first Melkite Divine Liturgy. I was delighted when the priest prayed, "Let us be attentive." That prayer caught my attention, and my faith was restored. I went from being a nominal broken Catholic to being on fire. I quickly learned the Byzantine chant and was chanting Vespers on Saturday and singing with the choir on Sundays. Even though there was no "obligation," I attended daily services whenever possible because the Holy Services and the Divine Liturgy filled me with holy joy and renewed my hope.

Therefore, I am eternally grateful for the Eastern Catholic Church, which restored my faith in Jesus Christ and in His Church. If I had not visited that Melkite Church, I would not be an Orthodox Christian today.
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« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2011, 02:58:34 AM »

Question....
Wouldn't Orthodox Clergy recognize Some, if not all of the ones that only appear on major feast days , Plus when they do appear ,some may have Fasted and went to Confession ,and received Holy Communion after that, and nothing is said or done about it, when does excommunication  really kick in.....Or it's overlooked at times, Because there glad just to get them into church even on special occasions...... Huh
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« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2011, 12:39:38 PM »



Sometimes that is true. The saying of our Lord comes to mind about lukewarmness. How can we start a fire under people?

In my case, I got to the point where I stopped going to the Catholic Mass because I was losing my faith due to Cardinal Mahony's "Liturgical Revolution" as he himself called it. I did not like going to Mass to get entertained, as I felt that I should be worshiping God. However, I certainly did not feel like I was engaged in heavenly worship with scantily clad dancers, so I lost my spiritual focus.

It seems to me that any fires lit by human hands are fleeting.  The fires that seem to last are those lit by God, who seems to work in ways that are not our ways. 

For example, it was the Novus Ordo liturgy and parish dedicated to the embodiment of the teachings of the Second Vatican Council that fed my early moments of adult conversion and return to the Church of my baptism.   I had not gone anywhere else.   In terms of Church I had not been going anywhere at all.  It was an extremely intense seven or eight years...

So there are all kinds of stories and we must be content to work on our own.  You can open the door, of course, but God lights the fire and keeps it burning, with our cooperation.
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« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2011, 02:16:37 PM »

other Catholic friends told me that it would be very anti-American to attend an Arabic or Russian church, even if it were under the Pope,

That's a new one on me.
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« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2011, 10:42:11 PM »

other Catholic friends told me that it would be very anti-American to attend an Arabic or Russian church, even if it were under the Pope,

That's a new one on me.

Unfortunately, xenophobia is still alive and well in various pockets of both East and West, but that is a topic for yet another thread.
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« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2011, 10:49:47 PM »



Sometimes that is true. The saying of our Lord comes to mind about lukewarmness. How can we start a fire under people?

In my case, I got to the point where I stopped going to the Catholic Mass because I was losing my faith due to Cardinal Mahony's "Liturgical Revolution" as he himself called it. I did not like going to Mass to get entertained, as I felt that I should be worshiping God. However, I certainly did not feel like I was engaged in heavenly worship with scantily clad dancers, so I lost my spiritual focus.

It seems to me that any fires lit by human hands are fleeting.  The fires that seem to last are those lit by God, who seems to work in ways that are not our ways. 

For example, it was the Novus Ordo liturgy and parish dedicated to the embodiment of the teachings of the Second Vatican Council that fed my early moments of adult conversion and return to the Church of my baptism.   I had not gone anywhere else.   In terms of Church I had not been going anywhere at all.  It was an extremely intense seven or eight years...

Interesting. You are one of the few Catholics who mentions God's presence in the Novus Ordo.

Quote
So there are all kinds of stories and we must be content to work on our own.  You can open the door, of course, but God lights the fire and keeps it burning, with our cooperation.

That is so true. Sometimes we can help or hinder the grace of God working in others.
Positively: By our good example and true Christian love and concern for our brothers and sisters in Christ.
Negatively: By our poor conduct or lack of manners.
I have met many Catholic and Orthodox converts who found Christ on the Internet by reading conversion stories.
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« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2011, 12:00:09 AM »

A Priest who willingly allows a Catholic Priest or layman to approach the Chalice should be defrocked, period.

My Roman Rite Catholic bishop, when he traveled to the East, celebrated Divine Liturgy with the Oecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople.

This was not a one-time deal. The city where I live has every possible shade of Catholic and Orthodox. The Greek Orthodox and the Catholic, like Peter and Andrew, are in constant contact with one-another.

Let us not be like the Jansenists or the Rigorists, gentlemen. Instead, let us loathe Modernism and Freemasonry.


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« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2011, 12:17:24 AM »

A Priest who willingly allows a Catholic Priest or layman to approach the Chalice should be defrocked, period.

My Roman Rite Catholic bishop, when he traveled to the East, celebrated Divine Liturgy with the Oecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople.

This was not a one-time deal. The city where I live has every possible shade of Catholic and Orthodox. The Greek Orthodox and the Catholic, like Peter and Andrew, are in constant contact with one-another.

Let us not be like the Jansenists or the Rigorists, gentlemen. Instead, let us loathe Modernism and Freemasonry.


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What do you mean by "celebrated divine liturgy with he Ecumenical Patriarch"?  Did he vest and serve on the altar or did he attend?  Some proof would be nice.
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« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2011, 12:25:56 AM »

A Priest who willingly allows a Catholic Priest or layman to approach the Chalice should be defrocked, period.

My Roman Rite Catholic bishop, when he traveled to the East, celebrated Divine Liturgy with the Oecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople.

This was not a one-time deal. The city where I live has every possible shade of Catholic and Orthodox. The Greek Orthodox and the Catholic, like Peter and Andrew, are in constant contact with one-another.

Let us not be like the Jansenists or the Rigorists, gentlemen. Instead, let us loathe Modernism and Freemasonry.


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What do you mean by "celebrated divine liturgy with he Ecumenical Patriarch"?  Did he vest and serve on the altar or did he attend?  Some proof would be nice.

Proof may be hard to get, but the term "concelebration" "or "celebrated Divine Liturgy with" usually means a joint presiding.
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« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2011, 01:07:53 AM »

The East-West schism is something of a muddy thing. Nowadays, the general Orthodox position is that rejecting the Filioque is absolutely necessary, and the general Catholic position is that holding it as a valid teaching is absolutely necessary, but east and west were in communion from 867 to 1054 with the west accepting the Filioque and the East rejecting it. Does that invalidate both Churches during that time?
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« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2011, 09:43:44 AM »

A Priest who willingly allows a Catholic Priest or layman to approach the Chalice should be defrocked, period.

My Roman Rite Catholic bishop, when he traveled to the East, celebrated Divine Liturgy with the Oecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople.

This was not a one-time deal. The city where I live has every possible shade of Catholic and Orthodox. The Greek Orthodox and the Catholic, like Peter and Andrew, are in constant contact with one-another.

Let us not be like the Jansenists or the Rigorists, gentlemen. Instead, let us loathe Modernism and Freemasonry.


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What do you mean by "celebrated divine liturgy with he Ecumenical Patriarch"?  Did he vest and serve on the altar or did he attend?  Some proof would be nice.

I would very much like to hear the answers to those questions as well.
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« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2011, 09:45:32 AM »



Sometimes that is true. The saying of our Lord comes to mind about lukewarmness. How can we start a fire under people?

In my case, I got to the point where I stopped going to the Catholic Mass because I was losing my faith due to Cardinal Mahony's "Liturgical Revolution" as he himself called it. I did not like going to Mass to get entertained, as I felt that I should be worshiping God. However, I certainly did not feel like I was engaged in heavenly worship with scantily clad dancers, so I lost my spiritual focus.

It seems to me that any fires lit by human hands are fleeting.  The fires that seem to last are those lit by God, who seems to work in ways that are not our ways. 

For example, it was the Novus Ordo liturgy and parish dedicated to the embodiment of the teachings of the Second Vatican Council that fed my early moments of adult conversion and return to the Church of my baptism.   I had not gone anywhere else.   In terms of Church I had not been going anywhere at all.  It was an extremely intense seven or eight years...

Interesting. You are one of the few Catholics who mentions God's presence in the Novus Ordo.

That's hard to believe.
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« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2011, 09:50:11 AM »

other Catholic friends told me that it would be very anti-American to attend an Arabic or Russian church, even if it were under the Pope,

That's a new one on me.

Unfortunately, xenophobia is still alive and well in various pockets of both East and West,

Indeed. There was a post on another thread (I don't recall which thread) about an Orthodox woman saying that she didn't mind her daughter receiving communion in either the Orthodox parish or the Catholic parish, because they were both Ukrainian.
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« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2011, 09:57:21 AM »



Interesting. You are one of the few Catholics who mentions God's presence in the Novus Ordo.

I am one of many millions who recognize, and accept with joy, the presence of the Trinity acting in ANY approved liturgy of the Church.  One or several of the possible liturgical choices that we have may strike us more deeply than others:  I for example have no greater joy than during the celebration of the Presanctified Liturgy.  But that does not mean I cannot be moved and fed by other liturgies including the Novus Ordo, which I have experienced in celebration in several manners, all of them according to approved rubrics, and reverent.

What do you do in the spiritual life when the good feelings and consolations dry up and there's nothing left in your prayer but hot sand and tumbleweeds...?  I often wonder what kind of spiritual life people have who can only be fed at the table of their choice...particularly when there are as many approved tables as we actually have.  This to me is like the brother who high-tails it out of the monastery because he thinks his Abbott is wrong.

I got called away before I could finish and in my haste hit send.

I wanted to add to what I have said that I think it is important to consider this not because you should feel guilty for walking away...no...You need to consider this because there is no perfect place that lasts forever in the spiritual life, and you need to think about it and be prepared for the next time!!



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« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2011, 10:02:08 AM »

A Priest who willingly allows a Catholic Priest or layman to approach the Chalice should be defrocked, period.

My Roman Rite Catholic bishop, when he traveled to the East, celebrated Divine Liturgy with the Oecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople.

This was not a one-time deal.
The city where I live has every possible shade of Catholic and Orthodox. The Greek Orthodox and the Catholic, like Peter and Andrew, are in constant contact with one-another.

Let us not be like the Jansenists or the Rigorists, gentlemen. Instead, let us loathe Modernism and Freemasonry.


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As a moderator I am officially asking you for a proof of this claims. You have three days to provide them.
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« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2011, 10:32:46 AM »

other Catholic friends told me that it would be very anti-American to attend an Arabic or Russian church, even if it were under the Pope,

That's a new one on me.

Actually, that's a rather old one as the early Greek Catholic experience in America can attest. The story of Father Toth's (St. Alexis Toth), first meeting with that champion of the Americanizer faction of 19th century Roman Catholic bishops, Archbishop Ireland comes to mind. As the French say, 'plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.'
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« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2011, 10:50:06 AM »

True, it is really an "old one", but I'm surprised that it happens in this day and age.

other Catholic friends told me that it would be very anti-American to attend an Arabic or Russian church, even if it were under the Pope,

That's a new one on me.

Actually, that's a rather old one as the early Greek Catholic experience in America can attest. The story of Father Toth's (St. Alexis Toth), first meeting with that champion of the Americanizer faction of 19th century Roman Catholic bishops, Archbishop Ireland comes to mind. As the French say, 'plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.'
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« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2011, 12:03:57 PM »

The East-West schism is something of a muddy thing. Nowadays, the general Orthodox position is that rejecting the Filioque is absolutely necessary, and the general Catholic position is that holding it as a valid teaching is absolutely necessary, but east and west were in communion from 867 to 1054 with the west accepting the Filioque and the East rejecting it. Does that invalidate both Churches during that time?

It does not invalidate anything. It was still a relatively new controversy. Also, the filioque was never the only reason for the schism. It is one of a handful of things that combined to reach a breaking point. Now that that point has been reached, everything involved in causing the break must be addressed in order to heal it.
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« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2011, 12:09:52 PM »

In the past, some Orthodox bishops have given Melkites permission to receive Holy Communion in the Orthodox Church providing that they regularly confess their sins to the Orthodox Priest. This happens more in the Middle East where Christian Churches are often not accessible due to the persecution by the Islamic authorities.

I knew a Melkite Deacon who was often welcome to receive Holy Communion in Greek Orthodox Churches whenever he was visiting abroad in places where there was no Eastern Catholic Church. The only requirement is that he was to offer his confession, observe the fast, and say the communion canon.

But I must ask, does the Eastern Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Church have a Sunday obligation under pain of mortal sin? I do not think so, as neither church believes in the distinction between mortal and venial sin. Yet, it is understood that we are to keep the Lord's Day holy, and we are expected to attend Saturday Great Vespers (All Night Vigil) and recite the communion canon if we wish to partake of Holy Communion at the Sunday Divine Liturgy. I was told that Eastern Christians who do not attend Vespers and/or Divine Liturgy out of laziness or carelessness should talk with their priest.
Wow.
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« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2011, 01:09:49 PM »

A Priest who willingly allows a Catholic Priest or layman to approach the Chalice should be defrocked, period.

My Roman Rite Catholic bishop, when he traveled to the East, celebrated Divine Liturgy with the Oecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople.

This was not a one-time deal. The city where I live has every possible shade of Catholic and Orthodox. The Greek Orthodox and the Catholic, like Peter and Andrew, are in constant contact with one-another.

Let us not be like the Jansenists or the Rigorists, gentlemen. Instead, let us loathe Modernism and Freemasonry.


+++
To Jesus by Mary.


What do you mean by "celebrated divine liturgy with he Ecumenical Patriarch"?  Did he vest and serve on the altar or did he attend?  Some proof would be nice.

Proof may be hard to get, but the term "concelebration" "or "celebrated Divine Liturgy with" usually means a joint presiding.

I realise now that I chose an unfortunately unclear word. In the local Divine Liturgy, the two bishops (Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic) sat equal to one-another.
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« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2011, 02:27:41 PM »

The East-West schism is something of a muddy thing. Nowadays, the general Orthodox position is that rejecting the Filioque is absolutely necessary, and the general Catholic position is that holding it as a valid teaching is absolutely necessary, but east and west were in communion from 867 to 1054 with the west accepting the Filioque and the East rejecting it. Does that invalidate both Churches during that time?

It does not invalidate anything. It was still a relatively new controversy. Also, the filioque was never the only reason for the schism. It is one of a handful of things that combined to reach a breaking point. Now that that point has been reached, everything involved in causing the break must be addressed in order to heal it.

Let me be clear, I wasn't suggesting that the schism is not real or that the issues surrounding it do not need to be addressed. Only that where it begins and ends is a fuzzy question, historically. If a Catholic priest really did concelebrate the liturgy with the Ecumenical Patriarch, this would just be one more contributing factor to the muddy nature of it. I didn't mean to suggest that the issues don't need to be addressed.
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« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2011, 03:11:29 PM »

A Priest who willingly allows a Catholic Priest or layman to approach the Chalice should be defrocked, period.

My Roman Rite Catholic bishop, when he traveled to the East, celebrated Divine Liturgy with the Oecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople.

This was not a one-time deal. The city where I live has every possible shade of Catholic and Orthodox. The Greek Orthodox and the Catholic, like Peter and Andrew, are in constant contact with one-another.

Let us not be like the Jansenists or the Rigorists, gentlemen. Instead, let us loathe Modernism and Freemasonry.


+++
To Jesus by Mary.


What do you mean by "celebrated divine liturgy with he Ecumenical Patriarch"?  Did he vest and serve on the altar or did he attend?  Some proof would be nice.

Proof may be hard to get, but the term "concelebration" "or "celebrated Divine Liturgy with" usually means a joint presiding.

I realise now that I chose an unfortunately unclear word. In the local Divine Liturgy, the two bishops (Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic) sat equal to one-another.
It's a big difference.
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« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2011, 03:26:11 PM »

The East-West schism is something of a muddy thing. Nowadays, the general Orthodox position is that rejecting the Filioque is absolutely necessary, and the general Catholic position is that holding it as a valid teaching is absolutely necessary, but east and west were in communion from 867 to 1054 with the west accepting the Filioque and the East rejecting it. Does that invalidate both Churches during that time?

It does not invalidate anything. It was still a relatively new controversy. Also, the filioque was never the only reason for the schism. It is one of a handful of things that combined to reach a breaking point. Now that that point has been reached, everything involved in causing the break must be addressed in order to heal it.

Let me be clear, I wasn't suggesting that the schism is not real or that the issues surrounding it do not need to be addressed. Only that where it begins and ends is a fuzzy question, historically. If a Catholic priest really did concelebrate the liturgy with the Ecumenical Patriarch, this would just be one more contributing factor to the muddy nature of it. I didn't mean to suggest that the issues don't need to be addressed.

This is what I was addressing. At that time, they were both still the same Church.
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« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2011, 03:56:52 PM »

In the past, some Orthodox bishops have given Melkites permission to receive Holy Communion in the Orthodox Church providing that they regularly confess their sins to the Orthodox Priest. This happens more in the Middle East where Christian Churches are often not accessible due to the persecution by the Islamic authorities.

I knew a Melkite Deacon who was often welcome to receive Holy Communion in Greek Orthodox Churches whenever he was visiting abroad in places where there was no Eastern Catholic Church. The only requirement is that he was to offer his confession, observe the fast, and say the communion canon.

But I must ask, does the Eastern Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Church have a Sunday obligation under pain of mortal sin? I do not think so, as neither church believes in the distinction between mortal and venial sin. Yet, it is understood that we are to keep the Lord's Day holy, and we are expected to attend Saturday Great Vespers (All Night Vigil) and recite the communion canon if we wish to partake of Holy Communion at the Sunday Divine Liturgy. I was told that Eastern Christians who do not attend Vespers and/or Divine Liturgy out of laziness or carelessness should talk with their priest.

This practice of Melkites communing in Orthodox churches if flat wrong.

As for Orthodox obligations, while there may be non, per se, except for the 12 great feasts and annual confession at minimum--because people only want minimums, it is a matter of serious concern if people can but won't attend services. If you only want to do the minimum for God, how would you feel if God only gave you the minimum of Himself? The little things like regular church attendance and daily prayer matter for sanctification, which is the goal of our life here--to start that process well.
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« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2011, 04:02:51 PM »

The East-West schism is something of a muddy thing. Nowadays, the general Orthodox position is that rejecting the Filioque is absolutely necessary, and the general Catholic position is that holding it as a valid teaching is absolutely necessary, but east and west were in communion from 867 to 1054 with the west accepting the Filioque and the East rejecting it. Does that invalidate both Churches during that time?

It was not until 1100 that the West replaced a legitimate Greek bishop with a Latin one for convenience in Antioch. It was not until after that that the West theologically embraced the filioque, as opposed to just using it in the creed. It's one thing to repeat a mistake, another to justify it.
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« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2011, 04:05:35 PM »

The East-West schism is something of a muddy thing. Nowadays, the general Orthodox position is that rejecting the Filioque is absolutely necessary, and the general Catholic position is that holding it as a valid teaching is absolutely necessary, but east and west were in communion from 867 to 1054 with the west accepting the Filioque and the East rejecting it. Does that invalidate both Churches during that time?

It does not invalidate anything. It was still a relatively new controversy. Also, the filioque was never the only reason for the schism. It is one of a handful of things that combined to reach a breaking point. Now that that point has been reached, everything involved in causing the break must be addressed in order to heal it.

Let me be clear, I wasn't suggesting that the schism is not real or that the issues surrounding it do not need to be addressed. Only that where it begins and ends is a fuzzy question, historically. If a Catholic priest really did concelebrate the liturgy with the Ecumenical Patriarch, this would just be one more contributing factor to the muddy nature of it. I didn't mean to suggest that the issues don't need to be addressed.

It would not muddy anything since concelebration with heretics and schismatics is soundly condemned by the canons.
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« Reply #44 on: May 23, 2011, 05:41:44 PM »

The East-West schism is something of a muddy thing. Nowadays, the general Orthodox position is that rejecting the Filioque is absolutely necessary, and the general Catholic position is that holding it as a valid teaching is absolutely necessary, but east and west were in communion from 867 to 1054 with the west accepting the Filioque and the East rejecting it. Does that invalidate both Churches during that time?

The Pope accepts the Nicene Creed without the filioque, so it no longer appears to be an issue.
More important are the Papal Powers: Papal supremacy and Papal infallibility.
As long as the Pope holds onto those Papal Powers, we cannot have unity or intercommunion.
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