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Author Topic: Reagan mourning coverage on TV--Orthodox connection  (Read 4576 times) Average Rating: 0
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Anastasios
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« on: June 08, 2004, 02:24:55 AM »

I was watching the Reagan stuff today. And they showed a mourner make the sign of the Cross--Orthodox style. He had a long beard, too. Cool.

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« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2004, 02:43:49 AM »

This is interesting.  I have often wondered if late in life, say after he left office, he didn't make a private conversion to the Catholics or Orthodox.   I say Catholics because, well, he WAS Irish (perhpas this explains his greatness Wink ) and he had many lengthy private conversations with JPII.  Now I say Orthodox because I have always wondered if maybe he didn't talk with some Diaspora Russians.   He was president (at least during his first term) during the period when the (IMO Saintly) Met. Philaret was the First Hierarch of the ROCA.  

Either way, he did a great deed for Christians everywhere by almost single handedly destroying the Godless Regime of the USSR.  

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« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2004, 06:40:37 AM »

I was watching the Reagan stuff today. And they showed a mourner make the sign of the Cross--Orthodox style. He had a long beard, too. Cool.

anastasios

Yeah, I noticed that last night and thought that gentleman was probably orthodox.
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« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2004, 04:03:55 PM »


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This is interesting.  I have often wondered if late in life, say after he left office, he didn't make a private conversion to the Catholics or Orthodox.


I highly doubt this. If he did, he would have recieved last rites, and a Catholic or Orthodox funeral would have been planned.

I read in the paper that his close family and friends gathered at the Reagan Musuem and library for a prayer service lead by a Diciples of Christ minister. It would be strange if he did convert to Orthodoxy or Catholicism, and his family didn't plan a proper Orthodox/Catholic funeral. Even stranger that his family would have a prayer service lead by a Diciples of Christ Minister.

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I say Catholics because, well, he WAS Irish (perhpas this explains his greatness Wink ) and he had many lengthy private conversations with JPII.  


He met with H.H. JPII three times. Two of those times, Nancy was with him, and the third he was alone. I am not aware of any lengthy private conversations, perhaps you exaggerated.

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Either way, he did a great deed for Christians everywhere by almost single handedly destroying the Godless Regime of the USSR.  


I respectively disagree.

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« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2004, 04:30:08 PM »

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I was watching the Reagan stuff today. And they showed a mourner make the sign of the Cross--Orthodox style. He had a long beard, too. Cool.

That was awesome. Maybe he was a Russian priest or something because many russians look to Reagan as a hero for crushing communism, thus giving Orthodox christians true freedom. Also, many in the former Soviet government have a profound respect for Reagan.  

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Either way, he did a great deed for Christians everywhere by almost single handedly destroying the Godless Regime of the USSR.  
Indeed he did. Reagan sure changed the world map for the better.
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« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2004, 04:59:02 PM »

Amen Nacho.  Amen.

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« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2004, 05:00:50 PM »

Indeed he did. Reagan sure changed the world map for the better.

Come on....lets not exaggerate too much here. I will not deny Reagans important role in the ending of the Soviet Regime, but to give him *all* of the credit is absurd!

Communism fell by itself. I mean honestly Communism didn't survive because it simply wasn't working. As H.H. Pope John Paul II said:

"It would be simplistic to say that Divine Providence caused the fall of Communism. In a certain sense Communism as a system fell by itself. It fell as a consequence of its own mistakes and abuses. It proved to be a medicine more dangerous than the disease itself. It did not bring about true social reform, yet it did become a powerful threat and challenge to the entire world. But it fell by itself, because of its own inherent weakness."

However, there were many who helped bring an end to Communism, Reagan was one of them of course, but let us not forget the important role of the Polish Solidarity movement and Lech Walesa, who rose to international fame in August 1980 as the leader of the independent trade union Solidarity (Solidarnosc)- which was heavily supported by the Catholic Church- which played a decisive role in bringing down Communism not only in Poland but throughout Eastern and Central Europe.

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« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2004, 05:07:07 PM »

Communism was doomed to failure true.  However, it ended decades and according to some centuries before it would have with such internal efforts simply because Reagan outspent the SU in military matters.  it's rather simple economics.  The SU had to keep up with us (at least in their mind) and they simply could not spend the money.  They took it from other progams and suffered an implosian as a result.

If Reagan had not acted the way he did, the end of communism would have been a very long protracted bloody death of an, albeit evershrinking, USSR.

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« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2004, 05:09:30 PM »

Let's not argue politics my friends.
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« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2004, 05:10:03 PM »

Yes Joe, I understand everything you are saying, I never denied Reagan had a great deal to do with the fall of communism, but giving him all of the credit is not fair, and frankly absurd. To give Reagan all of the credit is simply showing historical ignorance.
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« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2004, 05:19:19 PM »

Come on....lets not exaggerate too much here. I will not deny Reagans important role in the ending of the Soviet Regime, but to give him *all* of the credit is absurd!

Communism fell by itself. I mean honestly Communism didn't survive because it simply wasn't working.
But let's not minimize his role.  A majority of the credit for the sudden collapse of the Soviet Union is attributable to Reagan's policies.  Part of what pushed the USSR over the edge was the fact that they couldn't keep up with the US defense buildup, and also faced a renewed containment of communist expansion in Central America, Africa and Afghanistan.  Certainly Pope John Paul II played a role in encouraging the solidarity movement which helped to discredit the communist regime in Poland, but he did this with the cooperation and support of President Reagan.  Had say Jimmy Carter continued as president, it's quite conceiveable that with his weak stance towards Soviet aggression and national defense, he may have helped prop up the Soviet regime for a longer period of time, and oppressive communist regimes would have likely spread further throughout Central and even South America.
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« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2004, 05:21:03 PM »

I am not trying to minimize Reagan's role. I am just saying that giving him all the credit is truy absurd.
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« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2004, 05:37:42 PM »

This is interesting.  I have often wondered if late in life, say after he left office, he didn't make a private conversion to the Catholics or Orthodox
Joe Zollars

Joe, why would he?

 And remember, the last 10 years President Reagan was slipping deeper and deeper into the shadows of Alzheimers.   I saw Mrs. Reagan's face when she put her head on the casket.  She looked so tired and sad and worn out.  She's had a decade of watching the man she loves fade until maybe he didn't even know her.  He's at rest now, and I hope that she can find some as well.

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« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2004, 05:45:22 PM »

I am not trying to minimize Reagan's role. I am just saying that giving him all the credit is truy absurd.

Umm Ben, noone has given Reagan all the credit.  look at the messages, noone gave him all the credit. And besides as Anastasios has said, political stuff is still banned.

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« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2004, 05:54:56 PM »

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Joe: Either way, he did a great deed for Christians everywhere by almost single handedly destroying the Godless Regime of the USSR.  


Quote
Joe: If Reagan had not acted the way he did, the end of communism would have been a very long protracted bloody death of an, albeit evershrinking, USSR.

Quote
Nacho: Reagan sure changed the world map for the better.


Umm Joe it seems like Reagan is getting most, if not all, of the credit, to me!
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« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2004, 05:57:53 PM »

yeah he is getting a lot fo credit in this thread.  After all it is a thread about Reagan and his passing.  this is no time to be discussing Lech Walessa or whoever.  This is not a thread about history or a thread about the fall of communism, this is a thread about Reagan.  

Noone has made the claim that Reagan was the sole destroyer of communism, their just showing a little respect by not brining in stuff from outside the discussion at hand about a recently reposed president.

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« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2004, 06:04:44 PM »

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yeah he is getting a lot fo credit in this thread.  After all it is a thread about Reagan and his passing.
 

I understand.

Quote
this is no time to be discussing Lech Walessa or whoever.


Joe I was simply pointing out that there were others who had a heck of a lot to do with the fall of communism in Europe. Lech Walesa is one of those, as is the the independent trade union Solidarity (Solidarnosc) as a whole. It is only fair to mention those who worked very very hard against Communism, when most, if not all of the credit is being given to one man.

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This is not a thread about history or a thread about the fall of communism, this is a thread about Reagan.  


Actually this thread is about Anastasios seeing a bearded man make the sign of the Cross -  Orthodoxy style -  when paying his respects to the former President. This thread is not about Reagan or how great he was, this was about what an individual saw on TV.
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« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2004, 06:20:35 PM »

 

I understand.

Joe I was simply pointing out that there were others who had a heck of a lot to do with the fall of communism in Europe. Lech Walesa is one of those, as is the the independent trade union Solidarity (Solidarnosc) as a whole. It is only fair to mention those who worked very very hard against Communism, when most, if not all of the credit is being given to one man.  

In a thread about the fall of communism I would agree completely (assuming Poltical discussion was not still banned at that time), even if I don't agree with your conclusions.   However in a narrow since this was about a tv program and an individual seen on it and in a broad sense this is about Reagan--not about communism.

Let  us save this discussion for another time (and most likely another place) when/where political discussion is not under a moratorium and after we have all had time to pay our respects to one of the last American Heroes.

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« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2004, 06:24:41 PM »

Joe...This thread is specificaly about what was seen on tv, but turned into Reagan's role in the fall of communism. I am sorry you do not feel my comments to be relevant, but I felt Reagan was being given too much credit, and I provided my opinions. If I have posted anything that is in violation with the current rules and/or policies of oc.net, please leave it up the Admins and Mods to warn me.
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« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2004, 06:29:39 PM »

Rather than getting into a protracted debate, can we agree to the fact that MUCH of the credit for toppliing communism in the USSR should go to Reagan?  Like him or not, the world is a much different, and probably better place as a result of his policies.
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« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2004, 06:33:23 PM »

Of course Reagan played a very important role in the fall of Communism. He does deserve some credit, he played a critical role, and I am thankful for his contribution in the fight against the Soivet regime.
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« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2004, 08:13:28 PM »

Let's not forget the prayers of Orthodox Christians in Russia and abroad which were made unceasingly during the Soviet period. I believe those prayers certainly had a lot to do with the fall of the godless regime.
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« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2004, 08:19:07 PM »

Let's not forget the prayers of Orthodox Christians in Russia and abroad which were made unceasingly during the Soviet period. I believe those prayers certainly had a lot to do with the fall of the godless regime.

Amen! I agree 100%
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« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2004, 08:24:52 PM »

And let us not forget the prayers of Catholics in Ukraine, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Germany, etc. I believe that their prayers aslo had something to do with the fall of Soviet Communism.
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« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2004, 09:38:45 PM »

Let's not forget the prayers of Orthodox Christians in Russia and abroad which were made unceasingly during the Soviet period. I believe those prayers certainly had a lot to do with the fall of the godless regime.

And let us not forget the prayers of Catholics in Ukraine, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Germany, etc. I believe that their prayers aslo had something to do with the fall of Soviet Communism.

Bah! Prayers had nothing to do with it. If God truly listened to the prayers of the Orthodox Christians in Russia and Eastern Europe communism would have fell long ago. Not to mention all of the prayers of the Orethodox and non-Orthodox throughout history to stop any godless and cruel regime.

Prayers don't work when it comes to global issues (and maybe not even personally!)

God has his own agenda.
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« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2004, 10:05:54 PM »

Prayers do work! Christ said ask and you shall recieve! God does not always answer our prayers the way we want them to be answered, and not always on our time scheduel, but he does love us very much and never rejects a humble and contrite heart. If God does not answer prayers, and doesn't care about what we have to say and has his own agenda and pays no heed to our actions, then prayer is wortheless, the divine liturgy, church, miracles, all nothing. Tom, if your God does not answer prayers, then your God is not my God.
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« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2004, 10:09:05 PM »

Does anyone know who the bearded gentleman was?
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« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2004, 10:36:41 PM »

Doesn't seem as if anybody does Pedro, he may not have been Orthodox at all.
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« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2004, 01:29:18 AM »

Bah! Prayers had nothing to do with it. If God truly listened to the prayers of the Orthodox Christians in Russia and Eastern Europe communism would have fell long ago. Not to mention all of the prayers of the Orethodox and non-Orthodox throughout history to stop any godless and cruel regime.

Prayers don't work when it comes to global issues (and maybe not even personally!)

God has his own agenda.

Umm yes they do.  However It was in God's will for the Russian people to suffer.  God loves the Russians (and I guess he might love the greeks too Wink ) and so sends them sufferings to help them advance in Theosis.  It was God's will for Russia to suffer, and now it is God's will for Kosovo and Serbia (and their much-suffering Orthodox people) to be suffering at the hands of the Mohamadean godless heathens.

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« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2004, 03:14:41 AM »

Quote
Does anyone know who the bearded gentleman was?

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Doesn't seem as if anybody does Pedro, he may not have been Orthodox at all.

Indeed. I was thinking that he even may have been a Byzantine Catholic - ya never know!  Cheesy

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« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2004, 07:46:31 AM »

Bah! Prayers had nothing to do with it. If God truly listened to the prayers of the Orthodox Christians in Russia and Eastern Europe communism would have fell long ago. Not to mention all of the prayers of the Orethodox and non-Orthodox throughout history to stop any godless and cruel regime.

Prayers don't work when it comes to global issues (and maybe not even personally!)

God has his own agenda.

I very strongly disagree, Tom.

God does hear and answer prayers; but you are right about His having His own agenda - His will. That should be our agenda, too.

God's agenda is LOVE, and it is always the best thing for us, even if it means temporary suffering.

When I was a little boy and my parents took me to the beach, I would walk out into the surf as far as I could go. Before I got too far, my dad would pull me back. I would kick and scream and protest because I wanted to go out to the big waves. I did not understand the dangers. My plan seemed the right one at the time, but it would have drowned me.

Just as my father knew far more than I about the ocean and what it could do to me, God knows infinitely more about life and what is necessary for those He loves.

We should just trust Him.

But we will continue to kick and scream and protest, no doubt.
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