OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 23, 2014, 12:50:41 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: More Good News: Pope's 'reform of the reform' in liturgy to continue  (Read 12200 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,192


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« on: May 17, 2011, 01:04:42 PM »

"VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- Pope Benedict XVI's easing of restrictions on use of the 1962 Roman Missal, known as the Tridentine rite, is just the first step in a "reform of the reform" in liturgy, the Vatican's top ecumenist said.

The pope's long-term aim is not simply to allow the old and new rites to coexist, but to move toward a "common rite" that is shaped by the mutual enrichment of the two Mass forms, Cardinal Kurt Koch, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, said May 14.

In effect, the pope is launching a new liturgical reform movement, the cardinal said. Those who resist it, including "rigid" progressives, mistakenly view the Second Vatican Council as a rupture with the church's liturgical tradition, he said."

Full article here: http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1101922.htm

We Catholics may be gaining some real ground here. Praise God!
« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 01:04:59 PM by Papist » Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,183


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2011, 01:15:52 PM »

It remains to be seen whether or not this will be a good thing, either as far as the Latin Church is conserned or as far as the Orthodox are concerned.  But I see no reason why to not be cautiously optimistic at this point.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 01:23:53 PM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,470


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2011, 01:30:03 PM »

Quote
Cardinal Koch said Pope Benedict thinks the post-Vatican II liturgical changes have brought "many positive fruits" but also problems, including a focus on purely practical matters and a neglect of the paschal mystery in the Eucharistic celebration.

I think this is the key point of the article. If Rome is to return to orthodoxy, as Pope Benedict wishes, the Eucharistic celebration must be seen as a Paschal celebration.

In Orthodoxy, we sing the Sunday Paschal Troparia even during Great Lent. This is precisely why the Presanctified Liturgy is used during the weekdays of Lent as the Divine Liturgy would not be appropriate.

Therefore, I think this is a very positive development and I laud Pope Benedict XVI.

Praise the Lord.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,744



« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2011, 02:13:08 PM »

Quote from: Cardinal Koch
In fact, Pope Benedict knows well that, in the long term, we cannot stop at a coexistence between the ordinary form and the extraordinary form of the Roman rite, but that in the future the church naturally will once again need a common rite

If I understand correctly His Holiness is a lot more fond to Extraordinary form than Ordinary from so I'm guessing Ordinary form will be eventually somewhat "tridentized".

Deo gratias.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 02:13:43 PM by Alpo » Logged

Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,192


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2011, 02:21:08 PM »

Quote from: Cardinal Koch
In fact, Pope Benedict knows well that, in the long term, we cannot stop at a coexistence between the ordinary form and the extraordinary form of the Roman rite, but that in the future the church naturally will once again need a common rite

If I understand correctly His Holiness is a lot more fond to Extraordinary form than Ordinary from so I'm guessing Ordinary form will be eventually somewhat "tridentized".

Deo gratias.
I am hoping for the same thing.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 7,011


"My god is greater."


« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2011, 02:26:49 PM »

There are some churches that are just so hideous that, no matter how your shuffle the furniture, the EF would be totally out of place.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,192


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2011, 02:39:29 PM »

There are some churches that are just so hideous that, no matter how your shuffle the furniture, the EF would be totally out of place.
Hopefully those churches will be remodeled as time goes on.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2011, 03:37:59 PM »

"...In effect, the pope is launching a new liturgical reform movement, the cardinal said. Those who resist it, including "rigid" progressives, mistakenly view the Second Vatican Council as a rupture with the church's liturgical tradition, he said."
So the Second Vatican Council was not a rupture with the Church's liturgical tradition? That is difficult to take seriously.
Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,474


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2011, 03:44:26 PM »

"...In effect, the pope is launching a new liturgical reform movement, the cardinal said. Those who resist it, including "rigid" progressives, mistakenly view the Second Vatican Council as a rupture with the church's liturgical tradition, he said."
So the Second Vatican Council was not a rupture with the Church's liturgical tradition? That is difficult to take seriously.

I think the point is that the Council itself was not a rupture but, rather, what certain people did in its wake.  If one reads only the documents produced by Vatican II, it is difficult to see a rupture. 

Keep also, in mind, that the Novus Ordo was not a direct product of the Council.
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Irish_Melkite
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Newton MA
Posts: 98


« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2011, 03:56:39 PM »


So the Second Vatican Council was not a rupture with the Church's liturgical tradition? That is difficult to take seriously.

I think the point is that the Council itself was not a rupture but, rather, what certain people did in its wake.  If one reads only the documents produced by Vatican II, it is difficult to see a rupture. 

Keep also, in mind, that the Novus Ordo was not a direct product of the Council.

I beg to differ.  The documents on the Liturgy permitted all kinds of experimentation.  Example the Constitution on the Liturgy said that the priest MAY face the people.  However, in bureaucratic institutions this means, "yeah, go ahead and do it the higher ups won't stop you."  Now you have whack jobs like the recently retired Cardinal Mahony lamenting the new Novus Ordo.  Well, this wasn't reform that came into the Church.... it  was liturgical destruction.  Lex orandi, lex credendi.
Logged
Hamartolos
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 625


« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2011, 04:12:41 PM »

I still go to Mass with my Mom sometimes, like this past Mother's day.  Although I'm not Catholic anymore, it's what I grew up with and wouldn't have any faith at all without it.  It would be great to see this 'combination' of both the Tridentine and Pauline Rites.
Logged

Formerly known as "mctavix"
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,470


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2011, 04:16:58 PM »

I still go to Mass with my Mom sometimes, like this past Mother's day.  Although I'm not Catholic anymore, it's what I grew up with and wouldn't have any faith at all without it.  It would be great to see this 'combination' of both the Tridentine and Pauline Rites.

It would be wonderful if Catholics could return to the original Liturgy of Pope St. Gregory the Great, then it would truly be Orthodox.

Merging the Tridentine with the Pauline might be a liturgical disaster. And if the Pope should die, would his predecessor continue the tradition of reform?
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Irish_Melkite
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Newton MA
Posts: 98


« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2011, 04:23:01 PM »

I still go to Mass with my Mom sometimes, like this past Mother's day.  Although I'm not Catholic anymore, it's what I grew up with and wouldn't have any faith at all without it.  It would be great to see this 'combination' of both the Tridentine and Pauline Rites.

It would be wonderful if Catholics could return to the original Liturgy of Pope St. Gregory the Great, then it would truly be Orthodox.

Merging the Tridentine with the Pauline might be a liturgical disaster. And if the Pope should die, would his predecessor continue the tradition of reform?

Interesting you mention the older liturgy there.  Before the Council of Trent in the 16th Century, there were at least eight different liturgies in use in the Roman Church depending on where you were.   Many of those liturgies went back before the Great Schism of 1054.  The Council of Trent suppressed all liturgies less tan 200 years old.  But many parts of the West migrated to the Tridentine Mass because of convenience and documentation.  This plague foisted upon the poor unsuspecting Latins called the Novus Ordo is a real crock and it stinketh horribly.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 04:23:34 PM by Irish_Melkite » Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,192


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2011, 04:24:39 PM »

I still go to Mass with my Mom sometimes, like this past Mother's day.  Although I'm not Catholic anymore, it's what I grew up with and wouldn't have any faith at all without it.  It would be great to see this 'combination' of both the Tridentine and Pauline Rites.

It would be wonderful if Catholics could return to the original Liturgy of Pope St. Gregory the Great, then it would truly be Orthodox.

Merging the Tridentine with the Pauline might be a liturgical disaster. And if the Pope should die, would his predecessor continue the tradition of reform?
I think that if the Pope leads the movement to reform the liturgy (I doubt he would do it by fiat, because of the pastoral implications), once the liturgy is restored, it won't be altered for a very long time. At that point, people will probably be just sick and tired of alterations to the liturgy.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,470


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2011, 04:31:19 PM »

I still go to Mass with my Mom sometimes, like this past Mother's day.  Although I'm not Catholic anymore, it's what I grew up with and wouldn't have any faith at all without it.  It would be great to see this 'combination' of both the Tridentine and Pauline Rites.

It would be wonderful if Catholics could return to the original Liturgy of Pope St. Gregory the Great, then it would truly be Orthodox.

Merging the Tridentine with the Pauline might be a liturgical disaster. And if the Pope should die, would his predecessor continue the tradition of reform?

Interesting you mention the older liturgy there.  Before the Council of Trent in the 16th Century, there were at least eight different liturgies in use in the Roman Church depending on where you were.   Many of those liturgies went back before the Great Schism of 1054.  The Council of Trent suppressed all liturgies less tan 200 years old.  But many parts of the West migrated to the Tridentine Mass because of convenience and documentation.  This plague foisted upon the poor unsuspecting Latins called the Novus Ordo is a real crock and it stinketh horribly.

I agree with you about the novus ordo. Now that the Mass is in the vernacular, it will be almost impossible to undo this liturgical experiment (and that is what it was) because people have become used to hearing the Mass in their own language. If one of the oldest Divine Liturgies of St. Gregory could be found dating back to 600 A.D. or so, and then translated into a respectful vernacular (without the interference of the ICEL) and with the retention of the Kyrie Eleison and the Trisagion Hymn in Greek, that would be simply awesome.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,192


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2011, 04:34:08 PM »

I still go to Mass with my Mom sometimes, like this past Mother's day.  Although I'm not Catholic anymore, it's what I grew up with and wouldn't have any faith at all without it.  It would be great to see this 'combination' of both the Tridentine and Pauline Rites.

It would be wonderful if Catholics could return to the original Liturgy of Pope St. Gregory the Great, then it would truly be Orthodox.

Merging the Tridentine with the Pauline might be a liturgical disaster. And if the Pope should die, would his predecessor continue the tradition of reform?

Interesting you mention the older liturgy there.  Before the Council of Trent in the 16th Century, there were at least eight different liturgies in use in the Roman Church depending on where you were.   Many of those liturgies went back before the Great Schism of 1054.  The Council of Trent suppressed all liturgies less tan 200 years old.  But many parts of the West migrated to the Tridentine Mass because of convenience and documentation.  This plague foisted upon the poor unsuspecting Latins called the Novus Ordo is a real crock and it stinketh horribly.

I agree with you about the novus ordo. Now that the Mass is in the vernacular, it will be almost impossible to undo this liturgical experiment (and that is what it was) because people have become used to hearing the Mass in their own language. If one of the oldest Divine Liturgies of St. Gregory could be found dating back to 600 A.D. or so, and then translated into a respectful vernacular (without the interference of the ICEL) and with the retention of the Kyrie Eleison and the Trisagion Hymn in Greek, that would be simply awesome.

Why not the TLM in the venacular?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,470


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2011, 04:39:15 PM »

I still go to Mass with my Mom sometimes, like this past Mother's day.  Although I'm not Catholic anymore, it's what I grew up with and wouldn't have any faith at all without it.  It would be great to see this 'combination' of both the Tridentine and Pauline Rites.

It would be wonderful if Catholics could return to the original Liturgy of Pope St. Gregory the Great, then it would truly be Orthodox.

Merging the Tridentine with the Pauline might be a liturgical disaster. And if the Pope should die, would his predecessor continue the tradition of reform?

Interesting you mention the older liturgy there.  Before the Council of Trent in the 16th Century, there were at least eight different liturgies in use in the Roman Church depending on where you were.   Many of those liturgies went back before the Great Schism of 1054.  The Council of Trent suppressed all liturgies less tan 200 years old.  But many parts of the West migrated to the Tridentine Mass because of convenience and documentation.  This plague foisted upon the poor unsuspecting Latins called the Novus Ordo is a real crock and it stinketh horribly.

I agree with you about the novus ordo. Now that the Mass is in the vernacular, it will be almost impossible to undo this liturgical experiment (and that is what it was) because people have become used to hearing the Mass in their own language. If one of the oldest Divine Liturgies of St. Gregory could be found dating back to 600 A.D. or so, and then translated into a respectful vernacular (without the interference of the ICEL) and with the retention of the Kyrie Eleison and the Trisagion Hymn in Greek, that would be simply awesome.

Why not the TLM in the venacular?

The TLM does not allow for communion under both species, but the pre-schism Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory had communion under both species, the Trisagion in Greek and Latin, various processions, and litanies (petitions). It was a longer and more devout Liturgy (probably lasting around 60 to 90 minutes or even longer).

Unfortunately, the reformers around 800 AD wanted to get rid of any Eastern influence including use of leavened bread, Trisagion Hymn, processions, and litanies.

I gave up on the novus ordo and went East (joining the Melkites first) when the Mass in the vernacular was said in 15 to 30 minutes.
I remember the priests telling us that the private Latin Mass (TLM) could be said in 15 to 30 minutes flat with experience, and that the vernacular would prevent that kind of abuse because it could be said with more focus and attention. Nonsense. Both the TLM and the Novus Ordo have been abused time wise.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 04:47:47 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2011, 05:24:14 PM »



Here is a really interesting two part film that critics the entire RC liturgical movement, even the pore Vatican II one which dated back to, at least the early 19Th century.  Although a lot of people might find this mans arguments to be  a bit reactionary and even somewhat absurd, he makes a good case why the supposed self destruction of the Catholic mass did not just start overnight in the 1960's, but was a long, drawn out process which spanned centuries until it finally bore fruition.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxx1ZRMpfk8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzjN5Dbr0kA&feature=related

Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2011, 07:45:08 PM »

...Keep also, in mind, that the Novus Ordo was not a direct product of the Council.
CONSTITUTION
ON THE SACRED LITURGY
SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY
HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON DECEMBER 4, 1963
 
1…”The Council therefore sees particularly cogent reasons for undertaking the reform and promotion of the liturgy. …”
 …“25. The liturgical books are to be revised as soon as possible; experts are to be employed on the task, and bishops are to be consulted, from various parts of the world. “
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 07:46:01 PM by stanley123 » Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,474


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2011, 08:17:39 PM »

And that resulted in Inter Oecumenici, which is most decidedly not Novus Order of Paul VI.  The so-called "interim Mass" of 1965 was the product of V2.
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2011, 09:02:48 PM »



Here is a really interesting two part film that critics the entire RC liturgical movement, even the pore Vatican II one which dated back to, at least the early 19Th century.  Although a lot of people might find this mans arguments to be  a bit reactionary and even somewhat absurd, he makes a good case why the supposed self destruction of the Catholic mass did not just start overnight in the 1960's, but was a long, drawn out process which spanned centuries until it finally bore fruition.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxx1ZRMpfk8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzjN5Dbr0kA&feature=related



Interesting video, thanks.

I think this should be a warning to us Orthodox: dangerous creeping movements need to be nipped in the bud before they mount a real threat to the Church. It took 500 years to destroy the Mass, but it happened.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 09:07:06 PM by bogdan » Logged
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,611



« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2011, 09:18:36 PM »

"...In effect, the pope is launching a new liturgical reform movement, the cardinal said. Those who resist it, including "rigid" progressives, mistakenly view the Second Vatican Council as a rupture with the church's liturgical tradition, he said."
So the Second Vatican Council was not a rupture with the Church's liturgical tradition? That is difficult to take seriously.

Well, I can't speak for you guys, but while some things of N.O. are negative, some positive items did come out of it, such as the reinstatement of the epiklesis.
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2011, 09:52:51 PM »

Well, I can't speak for you guys, but while some things of N.O. are negative, some positive items did come out of it, such as the reinstatement of the epiklesis.
So, Father, you would not consider the prayers (in the Tridentine Mass) 'Quam oblationem' and/or 'Supplices te rogamus' to be satisfactory from your point of view?
Quam oblatiónem tu, Deus, in ómnibus, quæsumus, benedíctam, adscríptam, ratam, rationábilem, acceptabilémque fácere dignéris: ut nobis Corpus et Sanguis fiat dilectíssimi Fílii tui Dómini nostri Jesu Christi.

Súpplices te rogámus, omnípotens Deus: jube hæc perférri per manus sancti Ángeli tui in sublíme altáre tuum, in conspéctu divínæ majestátis tuæ: ut quotquot, ex hac altáris participatióne, sacrosánctum Fílii tui, Corpus et Sánguinem sumpsérimus, omni benedictióne cœlésti, et grátia repleámur. Per eúndem Christum Dóminum nostrum. Amen.

Logged
Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,183


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2011, 10:19:27 PM »

Well, I can't speak for you guys, but while some things of N.O. are negative, some positive items did come out of it, such as the reinstatement of the epiklesis.

Whenever a thread like this pops up with people chiming in about just how great the Tridentine mass is, and how wonderful it would be if it could just come back and displace the novus ordo once and for all, I consider it my duty to reply and say something like: Give me a properly celebrated novus ordo mass with good music any day over any Tridentine mass.  I really wonder how many people who sing the praises of the Tridentine mass have ever actually been to one, and if they have, whether they were paying attention (as much as is possible for the laity to do in this mass!) to what was going on.  The entire canon of the mass (ie anaphora)- all of it!- and many other important parts of the liturgy - are recited privately by the priest with a couple of acolytes or an acolyte and a deacon!  Does the novus ordo have problems?  There is no doubt that this is the case.  It is in need of reform in so many ways, and yet it is clear in my mind that it is far superior the older mass, which is a showpiece for pre-Vatican II clericalism, among other problems.  
Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,611



« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2011, 10:33:07 PM »

Well, I can't speak for you guys, but while some things of N.O. are negative, some positive items did come out of it, such as the reinstatement of the epiklesis.
So, Father, you would not consider the prayers (in the Tridentine Mass) 'Quam oblationem' and/or 'Supplices te rogamus' to be satisfactory from your point of view?
Quam oblatiónem tu, Deus, in ómnibus, quæsumus, benedíctam, adscríptam, ratam, rationábilem, acceptabilémque fácere dignéris: ut nobis Corpus et Sanguis fiat dilectíssimi Fílii tui Dómini nostri Jesu Christi.
Súpplices te rogámus, omnípotens Deus: jube hæc perférri per manus sancti Ángeli tui in sublíme altáre tuum, in conspéctu divínæ majestátis tuæ: ut quotquot, ex hac altáris participatióne, sacrosánctum Fílii tui, Corpus et Sánguinem sumpsérimus, omni benedictióne cœlésti, et grátia repleámur. Per eúndem Christum Dóminum nostrum. Amen.

Is the Angel the Holy Spirit?  Why not just say Holy Spirit, like we know He was invoked by the early Roman Church, from St. Hippolytus' time?
Logged
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2011, 10:47:19 PM »

Well, I can't speak for you guys, but while some things of N.O. are negative, some positive items did come out of it, such as the reinstatement of the epiklesis.

Whenever a thread like this pops up with people chiming in about just how great the Tridentine mass is, and how wonderful it would be if it could just come back and displace the novus ordo once and for all, I consider it my duty to reply and say something like: Give me a properly celebrated novus ordo mass with good music any day over any Tridentine mass.  I really wonder how many people who sing the praises of the Tridentine mass have ever actually been to one, and if they have, whether they were paying attention (as much as is possible for the laity to do in this mass!) to what was going on. The entire canon of the mass (ie anaphora)- all of it!- and many other important parts of the liturgy - are recited privately by the priest with a couple of acolytes or an acolyte and a deacon!  Does the novus ordo have problems? There is no doubt that this is the case. IT is in need of reform in so many ways, and yet it is clear in my mind that it is far superior the older mass, which is a showpiece for privatising II clericalism, among other problems.  
I was one of those people who used to cheerlead for the Tridentine Mass every chance I had (Despite never having been to one in my life).  I bought into all the rightist rhetoric about how wonderful the pre Vatican II RCC was and how rotten everything had become since the Council.  When I finally started regularly attending a TLM, I was shocked by how cold and austere it was compared to the modern Roman rite which I had taken such delight in trashing as being unpoetical and bland.  Much to My chagrin, the prayers that I had so long admired in my Latin/English hand Missal were said inaudibly by the priest and the only things that were said aloud were the "Peoples Parts of the Mass" (Kyrie, Gloria, etc...).  Around 80% of the Mass was just inaudible mumbling from the priest.  Not only that, but the vast majority of it was almost impossible to follow even with the sue of hand missal.  No sooner had the choir finished singing the Sanctus, the priest was performing the consecration and no sooner had you realized that the consecration had occurred, the Pater Nostre was already being chanted.  This is because, unlike the Novus Ordo the Tridentine Mass is basically the private prayer of the priest which is being said  out of sync with the "Peoples  Parts", (either deliberately or by accident I'm not sure).  

No wonder why most pre Vatican II RC's used to just recite private prayer and devotions during the Mass.  Keeping up with it is almost impossible for a layman to do.  You either have to make the choice to keep track of what the priest is saying in the Missal or participate in the congregations parts (Which are usually done by the choir).  Not an easy task at all.  At least the revised Roman Rite, by making the priest dialogue with the congregation during the Mass allows for the laity to be able to keep up with him and therefore more fully participate.  I guess having most of the liturgy said inaudibly is just asking for such abuses to occur.

I have since stopped attending a Latin Mass and am far more empathetic to those older priest and laity whom wanted no part in the return to this type of Mass and who  I used to frequently cross swords with because of those opinions.

« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 10:53:32 PM by Robb » Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2011, 01:05:16 AM »

Well, I can't speak for you guys, but while some things of N.O. are negative, some positive items did come out of it, such as the reinstatement of the epiklesis.
So, Father, you would not consider the prayers (in the Tridentine Mass) 'Quam oblationem' and/or 'Supplices te rogamus' to be satisfactory from your point of view?
Quam oblatiónem tu, Deus, in ómnibus, quæsumus, benedíctam, adscríptam, ratam, rationábilem, acceptabilémque fácere dignéris: ut nobis Corpus et Sanguis fiat dilectíssimi Fílii tui Dómini nostri Jesu Christi.
Súpplices te rogámus, omnípotens Deus: jube hæc perférri per manus sancti Ángeli tui in sublíme altáre tuum, in conspéctu divínæ majestátis tuæ: ut quotquot, ex hac altáris participatióne, sacrosánctum Fílii tui, Corpus et Sánguinem sumpsérimus, omni benedictióne cœlésti, et grátia repleámur. Per eúndem Christum Dóminum nostrum. Amen.

Is the Angel the Holy Spirit?  Why not just say Holy Spirit, like we know He was invoked by the early Roman Church, from St. Hippolytus' time?
God is being invoked, and the angel is carrying the gifts to His Altar.
Quam oblatiónem tu, Deus, in ómnibus, quæsumus, benedíctam, adscríptam, ratam, rationábilem, acceptabilémque fácere dignéris: ut nobis Corpus et Sanguis fiat dilectíssimi Fílii tui Dómini nostri Jesu Christi.
Humbly we pray Thee, O God, be pleased to make this same offering wholly blessed , to consecrate  it and approve  it, making it reasonable and acceptable, so that it may become for us the Body  and Blood  of Thy dearly beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.
Súpplices te rogámus, omnípotens Deus: jube hæc perférri per manus sancti Ángeli tui in sublíme altáre tuum, in conspéctu divínæ majestátis tuæ: ut quotquot, ex hac altáris participatióne, sacrosánctum Fílii tui, Corpus et Sánguinem sumpsérimus, omni benedictióne cœlésti, et grátia repleámur. Per eúndem Christum Dóminum nostrum. Amen
Humbly we beseech Thee, almighty God, to command that these our offerings be carried by the hands of Thy holy Angel to Thine Altar on high, in the sight of Thy divine Majesty, so that those of us who shall receive the most sacred Body  and Blood  of Thy Son by partaking thereof from this Altar may be filled with every grace and heavenly blessing: Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.
Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,470


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2011, 03:00:47 AM »

Well, I can't speak for you guys, but while some things of N.O. are negative, some positive items did come out of it, such as the reinstatement of the epiklesis.

Whenever a thread like this pops up with people chiming in about just how great the Tridentine mass is, and how wonderful it would be if it could just come back and displace the novus ordo once and for all, I consider it my duty to reply and say something like: Give me a properly celebrated novus ordo mass with good music any day over any Tridentine mass.  I really wonder how many people who sing the praises of the Tridentine mass have ever actually been to one, and if they have, whether they were paying attention (as much as is possible for the laity to do in this mass!) to what was going on. The entire canon of the mass (ie anaphora)- all of it!- and many other important parts of the liturgy - are recited privately by the priest with a couple of acolytes or an acolyte and a deacon!  Does the novus ordo have problems? There is no doubt that this is the case. IT is in need of reform in so many ways, and yet it is clear in my mind that it is far superior the older mass, which is a showpiece for privatising II clericalism, among other problems.  
I was one of those people who used to cheerlead for the Tridentine Mass every chance I had (Despite never having been to one in my life).  I bought into all the rightist rhetoric about how wonderful the pre Vatican II RCC was and how rotten everything had become since the Council.  When I finally started regularly attending a TLM, I was shocked by how cold and austere it was compared to the modern Roman rite which I had taken such delight in trashing as being unpoetical and bland.  Much to My chagrin, the prayers that I had so long admired in my Latin/English hand Missal were said inaudibly by the priest and the only things that were said aloud were the "Peoples Parts of the Mass" (Kyrie, Gloria, etc...).  Around 80% of the Mass was just inaudible mumbling from the priest.  Not only that, but the vast majority of it was almost impossible to follow even with the sue of hand missal.  No sooner had the choir finished singing the Sanctus, the priest was performing the consecration and no sooner had you realized that the consecration had occurred, the Pater Nostre was already being chanted.  This is because, unlike the Novus Ordo the Tridentine Mass is basically the private prayer of the priest which is being said  out of sync with the "Peoples  Parts", (either deliberately or by accident I'm not sure).  

No wonder why most pre Vatican II RC's used to just recite private prayer and devotions during the Mass.  Keeping up with it is almost impossible for a layman to do.  You either have to make the choice to keep track of what the priest is saying in the Missal or participate in the congregations parts (Which are usually done by the choir).  Not an easy task at all.  At least the revised Roman Rite, by making the priest dialogue with the congregation during the Mass allows for the laity to be able to keep up with him and therefore more fully participate.  I guess having most of the liturgy said inaudibly is just asking for such abuses to occur.

I have since stopped attending a Latin Mass and am far more empathetic to those older priest and laity whom wanted no part in the return to this type of Mass and who  I used to frequently cross swords with because of those opinions.



My investigation into both the Novus Ordo and the Tridentine Mass led me to look into the Eastern Church, and then become an Orthodox Christian. Had Rome allowed the return of the ancient and Orthodox Divine Liturgy of Pope St. Gregory dating back to the 6th century, which would have corrected the abuses in the Tridentine Mass, I might still be a Catholic today. However, Rome has detoured too far from Orthodoxy as seen by manufacturing a new 20th century Biblical translation (using inclusive language) and a new Mass (the novus ordo) with their many errors.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 03:05:58 AM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2011, 03:09:05 AM »


So the Second Vatican Council was not a rupture with the Church's liturgical tradition? That is difficult to take seriously.

I think the point is that the Council itself was not a rupture but, rather, what certain people did in its wake.  If one reads only the documents produced by Vatican II, it is difficult to see a rupture.  

Keep also, in mind, that the Novus Ordo was not a direct product of the Council.

I beg to differ.  The documents on the Liturgy permitted all kinds of experimentation.  Example the Constitution on the Liturgy said that the priest MAY face the people.  

Not true. It didn't even mention it.

http://www.adoremus.org/0405LiturgicalPrayer.html

I find it astonishing that people still put so many words into Sacrosanctum Concilium's mouth, even 50 years later.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 03:09:37 AM by lubeltri » Logged
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2011, 03:11:54 AM »

I still go to Mass with my Mom sometimes, like this past Mother's day.  Although I'm not Catholic anymore, it's what I grew up with and wouldn't have any faith at all without it.  It would be great to see this 'combination' of both the Tridentine and Pauline Rites.

It would be wonderful if Catholics could return to the original Liturgy of Pope St. Gregory the Great, then it would truly be Orthodox.

Merging the Tridentine with the Pauline might be a liturgical disaster. And if the Pope should die, would his predecessor continue the tradition of reform?

Pope Benedict has no intention of accomplishing this "merger" within his lifetime---or perhaps even mine, and I'm only 31. He wants this to happen slowly, incrementally, and as naturally as possible.
Logged
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2011, 03:15:52 AM »

If one of the oldest Divine Liturgies of St. Gregory could be found dating back to 600 A.D. or so, and then translated into a respectful vernacular (without the interference of the ICEL) and with the retention of the Kyrie Eleison and the Trisagion Hymn in Greek, that would be simply awesome.


On the contrary, that's a pretty horrible idea. Why don't you "find" liturgical books of the Byzantine rite from circa 600 A.D. and just adopt them yourself? We both can play archaeology. Better yet, let's just do the liturgy as described by St. Justin Martyr in the 2nd century. Since it's older, it's certainly got to be better than what we had in 600.
Logged
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2011, 03:20:03 AM »



Here is a really interesting two part film that critics the entire RC liturgical movement, even the pore Vatican II one which dated back to, at least the early 19Th century.  Although a lot of people might find this mans arguments to be  a bit reactionary and even somewhat absurd, he makes a good case why the supposed self destruction of the Catholic mass did not just start overnight in the 1960's, but was a long, drawn out process which spanned centuries until it finally bore fruition.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxx1ZRMpfk8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzjN5Dbr0kA&feature=related



Thanks for the link! It looks very interesting.
Logged
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2011, 03:25:08 AM »

 Keeping up with it is almost impossible for a layman to do.  



I have no problem keeping up with it. In fact, I participate in it more deeply than I can with the Novus Ordo.

No, it's not instantly digestible as the Novus Ordo is, but my initial efforts at imbibing the traditional Mass have brought me great rewards now that I've gotten used to it.
Logged
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2011, 03:37:20 AM »

I notice how these "good news" threads always seem to devolve into criticism. I'd rather celebrate these very welcome developments in my Church, so I shall take my leave of the thread now.  Kiss
Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,470


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2011, 05:32:18 AM »

If one of the oldest Divine Liturgies of St. Gregory could be found dating back to 600 A.D. or so, and then translated into a respectful vernacular (without the interference of the ICEL) and with the retention of the Kyrie Eleison and the Trisagion Hymn in Greek, that would be simply awesome.


On the contrary, that's a pretty horrible idea. Why don't you "find" liturgical books of the Byzantine rite from circa 600 A.D. and just adopt them yourself? We both can play archaeology. Better yet, let's just do the liturgy as described by St. Justin Martyr in the 2nd century. Since it's older, it's certainly got to be better than what we had in 600.

You are correct in that older is not always better. Nevertheless, St. Gregory was known as a scholar and his awesome Presanctified Liturgy is being used to this day in the Eastern Orthodox Churches during Great Lent. You can be assured that his Divine Liturgy is heavenly.

The Liturgy described by St. Justin Martyr was most likely in Aramaic and/or Greek. That would not work in the Western church at all. However, I would not be surprised if the Maronites had such a liturgy in Aramaic similar to the one described by St. Justin Martyr.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 05:32:56 AM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Irish_Melkite
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Newton MA
Posts: 98


« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2011, 10:55:37 AM »


So the Second Vatican Council was not a rupture with the Church's liturgical tradition? That is difficult to take seriously.

I think the point is that the Council itself was not a rupture but, rather, what certain people did in its wake.  If one reads only the documents produced by Vatican II, it is difficult to see a rupture.  

Keep also, in mind, that the Novus Ordo was not a direct product of the Council.

I beg to differ.  The documents on the Liturgy permitted all kinds of experimentation.  Example the Constitution on the Liturgy said that the priest MAY face the people.  

Not true. It didn't even mention it.

http://www.adoremus.org/0405LiturgicalPrayer.html

I find it astonishing that people still put so many words into Sacrosanctum Concilium's mouth, even 50 years later.

I stand corrected.  However, the results of the travesty called Vatican II are obvious and eivdent.  The priest facing the people has turn the RC Mass (and unfortunately the Maronites have done the same) into a form of entertainment, where the personality of the priest has become paramount.  Mass facing the people has become a grave mistake, and the Church's history, both East and West has been all face towards God in the east. 

I know a number of Orthodox clergy and laity who are very concered that Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew's push for a pan-Orthodox Council will turn into another "Vatican II," with all kinds of liturgical changes.  I pray that does not happen. 
Logged
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2011, 11:28:12 AM »

But as that documentary Robb posted shows, the priests had already begun to face the people decades before Vatican II. Vatican II did not magically change everything; those changes had been happening for 60+ years before the council.
Logged
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2011, 12:58:59 PM »

But as that documentary Robb posted shows, the priests had already begun to face the people decades before Vatican II. Vatican II did not magically change everything; those changes had been happening for 60+ years before the council.

Well, there were Modernists under the radar who were doing experimentations. They came out of the woodwork at Vatican II and abused the council as justification for their revolution.

Here's an excellent book on the subject of orientation in liturgical prayer, highly recommended by the Pope himself:


« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 12:59:38 PM by lubeltri » Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,192


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2011, 01:47:51 PM »

But as that documentary Robb posted shows, the priests had already begun to face the people decades before Vatican II. Vatican II did not magically change everything; those changes had been happening for 60+ years before the council.

Well, there were Modernists under the radar who were doing experimentations. They came out of the woodwork at Vatican II and abused the council as justification for their revolution.

Here's an excellent book on the subject of orientation in liturgical prayer, highly recommended by the Pope himself:



Ignatius press pulishes some really fantastic books.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,470


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2011, 04:11:02 PM »

But as that documentary Robb posted shows, the priests had already begun to face the people decades before Vatican II. Vatican II did not magically change everything; those changes had been happening for 60+ years before the council.

Well, there were Modernists under the radar who were doing experimentations. They came out of the woodwork at Vatican II and abused the council as justification for their revolution.

Here's an excellent book on the subject of orientation in liturgical prayer, highly recommended by the Pope himself:




Yes, the Jesuits, including Father Teillard de Chardin, were engaged in liturgical experimentation way before Vatican II in their schools and universities. This phenomenon was largely happening in Europe.

I attended several retreats in Los Angeles in the late 1970s where the Franciscans celebrated Mass around four tables formed in a square. They faced the people and used delicious leavened whole wheat bread with honey in it as their communion bread. There were many abuses as the form of the Mass was not followed.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 04:18:21 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Alcuin
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 122


« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2011, 04:24:51 PM »

http://www.usccb.org/romanmissal/faqs2.shtml

If anyone is interested, the mass of the 3rd edition missal can be seen in .pdf format there (question 4) for catechetical purposes.
Logged
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2011, 04:28:21 PM »

The thing that is starting to disturb me most about the RCC is how we seem to be going to route the Anglicans took in the 19Th century (With High, Low, and "Broad" church parishes becoming the staple of worship).  The modern divide in the RC liturgical life seems to be betwen those who want a higher "smells and bells" form of worship, including the Pope, those who want a less ritualistic, more evangelistic type of Mass (liberals, charismatics, etc..).  Finally those who want a more "broader" type of worship and liturgy (Which would be about 90% of RC's and the majority of RC parishes that exist).  These churches will frequently strive for compromise between the ideals of the High and Low liturgical parties.

In the old days of course there was non of this division in Catholicism (Mainly because there wasn't as much emphasis on things like liturgy as a form of "community expression" as there is today).  The real irony about this is that the conservative/traditionalist RC's who are seeking to develop a more ritualistic form of Mass are really just subscribing to the principles of "communal liturgy" which the liberals were the ones to originally espouse.  So we all become liberals and "modernist" in a sense.  That's the modern world for you!

The lines drawn are, like the Anglicans based on theological persuasion and politics which often spill over into the realm of liturgy.  The RCC seems to be as divided as ever. Its only the Pope who keeps us all glued together, for now!
Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,470


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2011, 04:35:29 PM »

http://www.usccb.org/romanmissal/faqs2.shtml

If anyone is interested, the mass of the 3rd edition missal can be seen in .pdf format there (question 4) for catechetical purposes.

Sadly, inclusive language is still being used by the ICEL:

Quote
Glory to God in the highest,
and on earth peace to people of good will.

If they are so afraid to use MEN,
"and on earth peace to those of good will" would be so much better.

Will the new "reform of the reform" continue to use the blasted ICEL and their phobia against men and preference for inclusive language?

« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 04:36:37 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Irish_Melkite
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Newton MA
Posts: 98


« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2011, 04:45:37 PM »


Will the new "reform of the reform" continue to use the blasted ICEL and their phobia against men and preference for inclusive language?



I'm afraid that will continue until a certain number of bishops "grow a pair" and tell the ICEL to get lost.   Either that, or Rome is going to have to obliterate the ICEL and replace it with some good men.
Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,470


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2011, 04:51:18 PM »


Will the new "reform of the reform" continue to use the blasted ICEL and their phobia against men and preference for inclusive language?



I'm afraid that will continue until a certain number of bishops "grow a pair" and tell the ICEL to get lost.   Either that, or Rome is going to have to obliterate the ICEL and replace it with some good men.

Yes, the Catholic Church needs a few more good men.

Lord Jesus Christ have mercy.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.164 seconds with 73 queries.