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Robb
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« on: May 16, 2011, 05:30:49 PM » |
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It looks as if Hawkins has jumped on the Hitchins/Dawkins bandwagon. Yet another Brit promoting atheism. http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.4f8ccccd2e38de074f4c1305131c47e4.491&show_article=1Heaven is a 'fairy story', says Stephen Hawking May 16 07:00 AM US/Eastern British scientist Stephen Hawking has branded heaven a "fairy story" for people afraid of the dark, in his latest dismissal of the concepts underpinning the world's religions... |
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Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2011, 05:50:53 PM » |
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I see this as fairly mild. Besides, regarding many conceptions of heaven (final resting/party place of souls "freed" from bodies) he's right.
But I also have a great love for fairy stories and for healthy fear of the dark, so perhaps I don't see it as so great a condemnation!
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« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 05:51:32 PM by NicholasMyra »
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
"Simply put, if you’re not willing to take what is dearest to you, whether plans or people, and kiss it goodbye, you can’t be my disciple." |
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88Devin12
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« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2011, 06:00:11 PM » |
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Hawking = Hitchens + Dawkins... hehehehe
Stephen Hawking may be smart, but that doesn't make him a genius when it comes to matters of faith. Faith depends on more than the brain.
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Gamliel
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« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2011, 06:13:22 PM » |
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Typical Hawking. Yawn.
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Papist
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« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2011, 06:22:04 PM » |
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I don't think his position is informed by reason, but by his condition.
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Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
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quietmorning
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« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2011, 07:05:32 PM » |
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**Hands on hips** I want to see.empirical proof that heaven is a fairy tale.
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2011, 07:10:18 PM » |
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"...his views were partly influenced by his battle with motor neurone disease."
Understandable.
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Papist
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« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2011, 07:10:47 PM » |
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"...his views were partly influenced by his battle with motor neurone disease."
Understandable.
Absolutely. |
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Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
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HabteSelassie
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« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2011, 07:16:00 PM » |
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Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! That is silly, if heaven is a fairy tale then how does Mr Hawking explain the multidimensions of string theory?  stay blessed, habte selassie |
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"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
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Iconodule
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« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2011, 07:27:26 PM » |
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Fairy stories are awesome anyway...
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"A riddle or the cricket's cry Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
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JamesRottnek
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« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2011, 08:27:48 PM » |
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I think Mr. Hawking says things like this because he is sad that no one cares about him any more. I mean, really, when is he ever in the news except when he is attacking faith?
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I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice. Can you guess what it is?
The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.
American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.
Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
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scamandrius
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« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2011, 08:36:05 PM » |
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So what and who cares?
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I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius
Those who do not read history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous
What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
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Shiny
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Paint It Red
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« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2011, 09:00:25 PM » |
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If there is no afterlife, then clearly there is no meaning in the life we live now; there is no justification for Hawking to say he wants to do more with his life when ultimately it becomes meaningless.
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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”
– St. Ambrose of Milan
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Shiny
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« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2011, 09:00:25 PM » |
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If Hawking bases this conclusion on his motor neurone disease, I hope our great God has mercy on him.
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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”
– St. Ambrose of Milan
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celticfan1888
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« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2011, 09:17:04 PM » |
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**Hands on hips** I want to see.empirical proof that heaven is a fairy tale.
Haha agreed. You cant be a real scientist and make an absolute objection to heaven or God! |
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Forgive my sins.
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biro
Excelsior
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Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου
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« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2011, 09:19:42 PM » |
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If Hawking bases this conclusion on his motor neurone disease, I hope our great God has mercy on him.
Indeed. |
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Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be? Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied. http://spcasuncoast.org/ |
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2011, 09:31:05 PM » |
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If there is no afterlife, then clearly there is no meaning in the life we live now; there is no justification for Hawking to say he wants to do more with his life when ultimately it becomes meaningless.
http://www.soschildrensvillages.org.uk/ |
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Shiny
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« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2011, 09:49:43 PM » |
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If there is no afterlife, then clearly there is no meaning in the life we live now; there is no justification for Hawking to say he wants to do more with his life when ultimately it becomes meaningless.
http://www.soschildrensvillages.org.uk/What does this have anything to do with what I said? |
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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”
– St. Ambrose of Milan
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akimori makoto
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« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2011, 09:54:56 PM » |
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If there is no afterlife, then clearly there is no meaning in the life we live now; there is no justification for Hawking to say he wants to do more with his life when ultimately it becomes meaningless. If there were no eternal consciousness in a man; if, at the bottom of everything, there were only a wild ferment, a power that, twisting in dark passions, produced everything great or inconsequential; if an unfathomable, insatiable emptiness lay hid beneath everything -- what would life be but despair? Soren Kierkegaard, Fear and TremblingPS: your Chrysostom quote is one of my favourites. |
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The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2011, 10:07:24 PM » |
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If there is no afterlife, then clearly there is no meaning in the life we live now; there is no justification for Hawking to say he wants to do more with his life when ultimately it becomes meaningless.
http://www.soschildrensvillages.org.uk/What does this have anything to do with what I said? Its a charity he supports. Maybe he wants some of those kids to have a better life. Or some of the kids of those kids. Or some of the kids of those kids of those kids. Or... The idea that just because there is no super-duper-eternal-meaning, that that means there can be no meaning at all, is simply not true. And as a sometime agnostic I find this idea you are putting forward (which I hear often) to be frustrating. Do you think I suddenly stop caring for my family when I struggle with believing in God and the concept of eternal meaning? In those moments it's not important to me that my life might not matter a bazillion years from now. What I do in this life might have meaning 10 years from now, and maybe even in some small way (through the family) 100 years from now. That's good enough for me. I think it's unfortunate that you can't or won't accept that such temporary meaning could be important to someone. I say this not to insult you: a number of posters here believe that, and even my own priest--who I much admire--goes along with this basic idea. I just think it's unfortunate. |
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« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 10:10:51 PM by Asteriktos »
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akimori makoto
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« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2011, 10:18:34 PM » |
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If:
1. there is no God (however so defined); and
2. matter spontaneously self-existed (or whatever variant theory one might wish to confess); and
3. abiogenesis is true; and
4. evolution of species by natural selection is true,
then all human relationships are meaingless biological processes, which are reducible to apparently yet more meaningless chemical processes, which are in turn reducible to apparently yet more meaningless physical processes.
I am not saying this to heap trash on your spiritual struggle, Asteriktos, just saying that the idea that "no God = meaninglessness" is a timeless one and that timelessness is a function of its power.
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The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
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xariskai
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« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2011, 10:26:15 PM » |
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It's amazing what science can prove.
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Mivac
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« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2011, 10:46:43 PM » |
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I wonder how a discussion between Hawkins and Fr. Seraphim Rose would of turned out. Hawkins I believe is a typical Nihilist at heart even if blind to that reality. NIHILISM The Root of the Revolution of the Modern Age http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/nihilism.html |
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Jetavan
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« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2011, 10:55:58 PM » |
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Rejection of the idea of "heaven" is hardly "nihilism". |
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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Shiny
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Paint It Red
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« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2011, 11:15:04 PM » |
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If there is no afterlife, then clearly there is no meaning in the life we live now; there is no justification for Hawking to say he wants to do more with his life when ultimately it becomes meaningless. If there were no eternal consciousness in a man; if, at the bottom of everything, there were only a wild ferment, a power that, twisting in dark passions, produced everything great or inconsequential; if an unfathomable, insatiable emptiness lay hid beneath everything -- what would life be but despair? Soren Kierkegaard, Fear and TremblingPS: your Chrysostom quote is one of my favourites. Brilliant quote, and thank you. Its a charity he supports. Maybe he wants some of those kids to have a better life. Or some of the kids of those kids. Or some of the kids of those kids of those kids. Or... But any sort of charity wouldn't matter, there would be no meaning to be charitable to children who have no meaning whatsoever. The idea that just because there is no super-duper-eternal-meaning, that that means there can be no meaning at all, is simply not true. And as a sometime agnostic I find this idea you are putting forward (which I hear often) to be frustrating. It's frustrating because it's true. If God doesn't exist, then all that remains is nihilism. Any atheist who says otherwise is simply kidding themselves. If there is no such thing as an afterlife, everything we do here on this earthly life has absolutley no objective/absolute meaning whatsoever, and even a subjective meaning is self-refuting when one adopts this worldview. Not only this, but everything is permitted. There would be nothing to stop a man from nuking the whole world without some future judgment. Do you think I suddenly stop caring for my family when I struggle with believing in God and the concept of eternal meaning? We are looking at this logically, if there is no meaning at all in life, no absolute meaning, then you have no reason to take care of your children. None. Any reason that you try to support your argument is delusional, because you could be wrong; this is the fallacy of relativism. In those moments it's not important to me that my life might not matter a bazillion years from now. What I do in this life might have meaning 10 years from now, and maybe even in some small way (through the family) 100 years from now. That's good enough for me. But in the 100 year span the whole world ends, what meaning did you give it then? And how will you know your life gave any meaning 10 or 100 years from now, you won't and it simply wouldn't matter what you did. I think it's unfortunate that you can't or won't accept that such temporary meaning could be important to someone. I say this not to insult you: a number of posters here believe that, and even my own priest--who I much admire--goes along with this basic idea. I just think it's unfortunate.
I want absolutes in life, not ones that are simply temporary or fleeting. If:
1. there is no God (however so defined); and
2. matter spontaneously self-existed (or whatever variant theory one might wish to confess); and
3. abiogenesis is true; and
4. evolution of species by natural selection is true,
then all human relationships are meaingless biological processes, which are reducible to apparently yet more meaningless chemical processes, which are in turn reducible to apparently yet more meaningless physical processes.
I am not saying this to heap trash on your spiritual struggle, Asteriktos, just saying that the idea that "no God = meaninglessness" is a timeless one and that timelessness is a function of its power.
Post of the month! |
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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”
– St. Ambrose of Milan
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celticfan1888
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« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2011, 11:28:04 PM » |
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If:
1. there is no God (however so defined); and
2. matter spontaneously self-existed (or whatever variant theory one might wish to confess); and
3. abiogenesis is true; and
4. evolution of species by natural selection is true,
then all human relationships are meaingless biological processes, which are reducible to apparently yet more meaningless chemical processes, which are in turn reducible to apparently yet more meaningless physical processes.
I am not saying this to heap trash on your spiritual struggle, Asteriktos, just saying that the idea that "no God = meaninglessness" is a timeless one and that timelessness is a function of its power.
Hey, there's nothing wrong with evolution. ;P |
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Forgive my sins.
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Sakeneko
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Jurisdiction: OCA
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« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2011, 01:25:07 AM » |
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As a Muslim acquaintance of mine commented, next thing Hawking will do is use his physics expertise to analyze Confucious. |
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bogdan
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« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2011, 01:41:37 AM » |
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I see this as fairly mild. Besides, regarding many conceptions of heaven (final resting/party place of souls "freed" from bodies) he's right. Yeah. The popular concept of the afterlife has become so neutered and silly that an intelligent man like Hawking is right to reject it, because that really is simply a coping mechanism. The idea of sitting around in the clouds or in a beautiful landscape with one's family and friends playing football for eternity is not much better than cave man stuff. Many of these people are simply reacting against shallow Evangelicalism and take that as Christianity. I wonder what people like Hawking would think of the deeper, philosophical Church Fathers, who teach that salvation is not escaping to a happy world, but union with God. Based on Cosmos, Carl Sagan seemed to have had a bit of a thing for Hinduism, which is at least superficially similar to Theosis in some ways, so who knows? |
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« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 01:58:19 AM by bogdan »
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2011, 01:46:51 AM » |
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I see this as fairly mild. Besides, regarding many conceptions of heaven (final resting/party place of souls "freed" from bodies) he's right. Yeah. The popular concept of the afterlife has become so neutered and silly that an intelligent man like Hawking is right to reject it, because that really is simply a coping mechanism. The idea of sitting around in the clouds or in a beautiful landscape with one's family and friends playing football for eternity is not much better than cave man stuff. And from his perspective, a brilliant mind in a damaged body that has become more a prison than an extension of his personhood, hoping in a platonic mind heaven would appear cowardly and escapist. I see this as an extension of his determination to work within the conditions he has been given, rather than an in-depth theological rejection. |
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
"Simply put, if you’re not willing to take what is dearest to you, whether plans or people, and kiss it goodbye, you can’t be my disciple." |
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orthonorm
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« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2011, 02:40:59 AM » |
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Typical Hawking. Yawn.
Ditto. Who cares. |
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Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
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orthonorm
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« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2011, 02:47:46 AM » |
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Too bad the author of the above is really out of his league and wrote a pretty much incoherent diatribe. Again the fact he points to Nietzsche as a nihilist is endless lulz for me. This is a hysterical response from Fr. Seraphim of Platina to a boogeyman that never existed. It's sorta embarrassing. |
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Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
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akimori makoto
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« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2011, 03:21:50 AM » |
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To be fair, nihilism is a bit of a nebulous term of relatively fluid meaning, depending on what is intended by the speaker/writer.
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The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
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stanley123
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« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2011, 04:42:52 AM » |
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That is silly, if heaven is a fairy tale then how does Mr Hawking explain the multidimensions of string theory? Multidimensions and multiuniverses are something Mr. Hawking believes in without experimental verification. |
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stanley123
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« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2011, 04:47:22 AM » |
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If there were no eternal consciousness in a man; if, at the bottom of everything, there were only a wild ferment, a power that, twisting in dark passions, produced everything great or inconsequential; if an unfathomable, insatiable emptiness lay hid beneath everything -- what would life be but despair?
Soren Kierkegaard, Fear and Trembling
I don;t see forthcoming from Mr. Hawking an explanations as to how human consciousness evolved and arose from rocks or other inert matter. |
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Monk Vasyl
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« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2011, 09:15:35 AM » |
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Psalm 14: "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" The same goes for Heaven.
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« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 09:16:29 AM by Monk Vasyl »
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The unworthy hierodeacon, Vasyl
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podkarpatska
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« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2011, 09:47:53 AM » |
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I would put this article and its headline into the trash heap of other startling possible revelations such as ' Sky is Blue reports prominent Scientist', 'I don't like Obama, says Trump', 'What Steroids, says Barry Bonds.' Not news, not interesting.
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Jetavan
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« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2011, 10:20:40 AM » |
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Psalm 14: "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" The same goes for Heaven.
Perhaps from a Christian perspective. But many religions do not have a very well-defined idea of heaven (for instance, early Judaism), while still strongly believing in God and a purposeful cosmos. Many Christians reject "heaven" as popularly conceived. I think N.T. Wright wrote a whole book about it: It therefore comes as a something of a shock that Wright doesn't believe in heaven — at least, not in the way that millions of Christians understand the term. In his new book, Surprised by Hope (HarperOne), Wright quotes a children's book by California first lady Maria Shriver called What's Heaven, which describes it as "a beautiful place where you can sit on soft clouds and talk... If you're good throughout your life, then you get to go [there]... When your life is finished here on earth, God sends angels down to take you heaven to be with him." That, says Wright is a good example of "what not to say." The Biblical truth, he continues, "is very, very different." |
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« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 10:24:04 AM by Jetavan »
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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Monk Vasyl
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« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2011, 10:34:00 AM » |
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Psalm 14: "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" The same goes for Heaven.
Perhaps from a Christian perspective. But many religions do not have a very well-defined idea of heaven (for instance, early Judaism), while still strongly believing in God and a purposeful cosmos. Many Christians reject "heaven" as popularly conceived. I think N.T. Wright wrote a whole book about it: It therefore comes as a something of a shock that Wright doesn't believe in heaven — at least, not in the way that millions of Christians understand the term. In his new book, Surprised by Hope (HarperOne), Wright quotes a children's book by California first lady Maria Shriver called What's Heaven, which describes it as "a beautiful place where you can sit on soft clouds and talk... If you're good throughout your life, then you get to go [there]... When your life is finished here on earth, God sends angels down to take you heaven to be with him." That, says Wright is a good example of "what not to say." The Biblical truth, he continues, "is very, very different." We will all be surprised if or when we get there. But, that doesn't mean there is no heaven. No one among the living knows what heaven is really like...none of us have experienced it and won't until we pass from this life. But is does exist. |
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The unworthy hierodeacon, Vasyl
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